Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

It's only Phase 1, I'm sure there will continue to be tweaks and fixes and buffing and polishing from here on out.

Best Solution: Attention to Detail and Spatial Awareness.

And utilize the /feedback feature.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

Actually, that option is clearly bugged for me MissBizz. The tooltip says that if it's turned off, I shouldn't auto-steal, but I did. I didn't change this setting at all... unless they're not being entirely clear here.

YourNameHere · March 2015

Auto Steal works ONLY for CRATES AND BARRELS. Not for items on tables like bottles and armor.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

You know... since the thieves are happy and the righteous folk are suffering, it's clear that being good is bad. That's what I've gotten out of this.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

It's absolutely astounding that arguing in favor of people being responsible for their own actions in-game has resulted in actual accusations of trolling.

The system does not need fixing or tweaking in this way. If you steal something "by mistake," then you need to be less trigger happy.

MissBizz · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

I have always had auto loot on. I also noticed stolen items NEVER auto looted. I then saw there was an option to turn it in.. but the default is off.

Many players have auto loot on so they don't have to press extra buttons to loot corpses throughout the game... that's an option that's been in since the start of the game and in every MMO I can think of. Is it seriously connected to stealing as well? There's a huge oversight

No, normal auto loot is NOT connected @Adoryn. That was my point. I do play with auto loot on. There is a separate option to auto loot stolen items. It by default (even if you have regular auto loot ON) is set to off.

MissBizz · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

Actually, that option is clearly bugged for me MissBizz. The tooltip says that if it's turned off, I shouldn't auto-steal, but I did. I didn't change this setting at all... unless they're not being entirely clear here.

Then I hope you actually put in a /bug report.

Kalman · March 2015

Ashigaru wrote: »

You can opt out, there is a option to not attack npc's or such in options and the same for stealing, you can turn the auto loot off for stolen items.

Does not work for what they are describing. All that will do is if you open a container that is marked as steal you won't auto loot it. If there is a piece of armor, carrots, etc. you will just steal those. They should make it where you have to be crouched to interact with items that need to be stolen. This will keep you from accidentally stealing items.

Majic · March 2015

The War On Progress

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's absolutely astounding that arguing in favor of people being responsible for their own actions in-game has resulted in actual accusations of trolling.

The system does not need fixing or tweaking in this way. If you steal something "by mistake," then you need to be less trigger happy.

What's astounding is the extraordinary amount of effort that is being devoted to resisting the correction of what are obviously some very serious flaws in the current revision of the game.

What possible harm would correcting these problems cause to you?

Seriously: How does this hurt you?

Pallmor · March 2015

Like many others, I don't get why some people are so hostile to adding a "Don't steal" option alongside the "Don't murder" option. I too don't get why anyone would have a problem with this. Aside from a few snide "L2P newb!" remarks, I don't really hear any reasons for this NOT to be added. One of the early promises of the justice system was that it would be completely optional. And this just helps ensure that. So what's wrong with that?

Chuggernaut · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

Edit: Title for clarification -- also, I want to point out that I'm not looking to remove the justice system at all, but I do want it to be implemented in a way that honors the choices players make!

You can turn off killing innocents which would save you from the healing bounty and killing farm animals/peasants. Just go into settings and take a look around.

Lord_Kreegan · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

You know... since the thieves are happy and the righteous folk are suffering, it's clear that being good is bad. That's what I've gotten out of this.

Many years ago (long before my hair turned silver), I was a happy and righteous person; but I had a young lady tell me, "You're so bad!"

Actually, I think she may have been talking about our love-life...

So, even though I thought I was very good, I guess I was actually bad.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Majic wrote: »

The War On Progress

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's absolutely astounding that arguing in favor of people being responsible for their own actions in-game has resulted in actual accusations of trolling.

The system does not need fixing or tweaking in this way. If you steal something "by mistake," then you need to be less trigger happy.

What's astounding is the extraordinary amount of effort that is being devoted to resisting the correction of what are obviously some very serious flaws in the current revision of the game.

What possible harm would correcting these problems cause to you?

Seriously: How does this hurt you?

It wastes developer resources and basically places players in to two different versions of the world, one in which thievery exists, and the other where it doesn't. It also rewards players for complaining about not wanting to adjust to a new system, and I'm morally opposed to that.

Pallmor wrote: »

Like many others, I don't get why some people are so hostile to adding a "Don't steal" option alongside the "Don't murder" option. I too don't get why anyone would have a problem with this. Aside from a few snide "L2P newb!" remarks, I don't really hear any reasons for this NOT to be added. One of the early promises of the justice system was that it would be completely optional. And this just helps ensure that. So what's wrong with that?

The Justice System is completely optional. You don't have to take part in it if you don't want to, and unless you actively do something to flag yourself, you won't be taking part. "Accidents" or a lack of willingness to learn the new system is not a valid reason to want a toggle for it.

Pallmor · March 2015

Pallmor wrote: »

Like many others, I don't get why some people are so hostile to adding a "Don't steal" option alongside the "Don't murder" option. I too don't get why anyone would have a problem with this. Aside from a few snide "L2P newb!" remarks, I don't really hear any reasons for this NOT to be added. One of the early promises of the justice system was that it would be completely optional. And this just helps ensure that. So what's wrong with that?

The Justice System is completely optional. You don't have to take part in it if you don't want to, and unless you actively do something to flag yourself, you won't be taking part. "Accidents" or a lack of willingness to learn the new system is not a valid reason to want a toggle for it.

Except it sounds like these "accidents" are all-too-easy to make. And that's a problem. Is it a game-breaking problem? No. But it is a problem, and there's no reason why it couldn't be addressed.

Fleshreaper · March 2015

One way to fix all of this, is to only allow "stealing" from the sneaking stance. If you are standing up right and you try to access an owned item or container you just get the inventor is full sound and no bounty.

newtinmpls · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's absolutely astounding that arguing in favor of people being responsible for their own actions in-game has resulted in actual accusations of trolling.

The system does not need fixing or tweaking in this way. If you steal something "by mistake," then you need to be less trigger happy.

Well, I liken the whole "clicked on an item lying on a table" to the idea of "I picked it up (n the store) and was looking at it, then I wandered out the door without thinking and the security alarm went off" (in a magical sense, of course), since a fine of 9gp and a restoration of my momentarily disreputable status is not that big a consequence.

To me.

newtinmpls · March 2015

Fleshreaper wrote: »

One way to fix all of this, is to only allow "stealing" from the sneaking stance. If you are standing up right and you try to access an owned item or container you just get the inventor is full sound and no bounty.

Some costumes do not allow the sneaking stance.

Fleshreaper · March 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

Fleshreaper wrote: »

One way to fix all of this, is to only allow "stealing" from the sneaking stance. If you are standing up right and you try to access an owned item or container you just get the inventor is full sound and no bounty.

Some costumes do not allow the sneaking stance.

That's an easy fix.

Fleshreaper · March 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's absolutely astounding that arguing in favor of people being responsible for their own actions in-game has resulted in actual accusations of trolling.

The system does not need fixing or tweaking in this way. If you steal something "by mistake," then you need to be less trigger happy.

Well, I liken the whole "clicked on an item lying on a table" to the idea of "I picked it up (n the store) and was looking at it, then I wandered out the door without thinking and the security alarm went off" (in a magical sense, of course), since a fine of 9gp and a restoration of my momentarily disreputable status is not that big a consequence.

To me.

Okay, so if you are in a store and you pick up an item to look at it, you've already stolen it?? ESO=/=real life.

Ysne58 · March 2015

One thing that would really help with the second issue -- there should be a confirmation message with these out in the open items so the people who don't want to steal get an option to decline. @ZOS_GinaBruno is this possible.

I've had this happen to me too and it is annoying to not have that confirmation message on pumpkins and stuff. I prefer to only steal when I want to, not by accident.

newtinmpls · March 2015

Fleshreaper wrote: »

Okay, so if you are in a store and you pick up an item to look at it, you've already stolen it?? ESO=/=real life.

So ... I take it you are not much with metaphor and analogy.

I'm merely saying that since 1-I can't currently change this feature and 2-it does not have a consequence that I experience as major, that I find a way to think of it that works for me.

If it doesn't work for you, then don't use it.

Sinthrax · March 2015

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

Because most of the time the improvements they want are to make the game easier. People need to understand the mechanics of things in the game. Ignorance isn't an excuse, which is what happen here.

MrGhosty · March 2015

While I understand the OPs annoyance with the system, I might help to remember that they had to balance the system to avoid abuse or exploitation. This is why we have a universal bounty and other aspects of the system even though it makes no sense from an RP perspective. As for accidentally clicking, I might recommend finding a vendor who isn't surrounded by random tat and make them your go to. For example I use the starter islands in each faction as my "homebase" I have used these places for so long I barely even have to look at what i'm doing without fear of grabbing something I shouldn't.

What does bother me is tangentially related to justice but more about how heals work in the game, heals are auto detect and it is tricky to direct them to intended targets and it would be nice to have that fixed. It doesn't apply in your situation, but I would recommend being helpful outside of the city. All the quests inside the city walls could use a bit of tweaking but overall the system does its job well.

the game has changed drastically for a lot of us, and while I hate the phrase "learn to play", in this case you do need to learn to adapt. If that isn't possible, then this may no longer be the game for you.

Majic · March 2015

Reductio Ad Absurdum

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It wastes developer resources and basically places players in to two different versions of the world, one in which thievery exists, and the other where it doesn't. It also rewards players for complaining about not wanting to adjust to a new system, and I'm morally opposed to that.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The Justice System is completely optional. You don't have to take part in it if you don't want to, and unless you actively do something to flag yourself, you won't be taking part. "Accidents" or a lack of willingness to learn the new system is not a valid reason to want a toggle for it.

I invite everyone reading this to bear in mind that both of these statements were made in the very same post.

You're making a strong case against your own arguments, and reminding those of us who prefer a more user-friendly interface that no sensible argument against improving this part of the game has yet been posted in these forums.

Many of us don't want to mess with this stuff and simply want to enjoy the game. If that offends your sense of morality, then please understand that we are not the problem here.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

MrGhosty wrote: »

As for accidentally clicking, I might recommend finding a vendor who isn't surrounded by random tat and make them your go to.

Ehh... typical vendors in town shouldn't be rendered dangerous to use normally just because the justice system was implemented. I should be able to choose to be a law-abiding citizen without it being a big inconvenience, end of story. If the game can't do that now, it needs work.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Majic wrote: »

Reductio Ad Absurdum

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It wastes developer resources and basically places players in to two different versions of the world, one in which thievery exists, and the other where it doesn't. It also rewards players for complaining about not wanting to adjust to a new system, and I'm morally opposed to that.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The Justice System is completely optional. You don't have to take part in it if you don't want to, and unless you actively do something to flag yourself, you won't be taking part. "Accidents" or a lack of willingness to learn the new system is not a valid reason to want a toggle for it.

I invite everyone reading this to bear in mind that both of these statements were made in the very same post.

You're making a strong case against your own arguments, and reminding those of us who prefer a more user-friendly interface that no sensible argument against improving this part of the game has yet been posted in these forums.

Many of us don't want to mess with this stuff and simply want to enjoy the game. If that offends your sense of morality, then please understand that we are not the problem here.

You are severely misunderstanding my argument. Those statements are in no way contradictory.

failkiwib16_ESO · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Solution 1: Be more careful.

Solution 2: Don't be more careful, and cough up the paltry sum of gold for your bounty.

The Justice System is absolutely necessary in an Elder Scrolls game. I hate that they even have an opt out option for attacking innocents, because "opting out" should be done by not attacking innocents.

Govalon wrote: »

Welcome to Elder Scrolls. This is exactly how it is supposed to work if the intention is to make thieving-system like in single player games.

<< guys you realize The Elder Scroll series used to be singleplayers, but ESO is an mmo ...right? The Justice System is flawed, badly designed and executed. For the other Elder Scroll games you could download mods, change everything... in ESO we're limited, can't change the game to what we want, so we have to write to Zenimax to change it - and hope they listen.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Solution 1: Be more careful.

Solution 2: Don't be more careful, and cough up the paltry sum of gold for your bounty.

The Justice System is absolutely necessary in an Elder Scrolls game. I hate that they even have an opt out option for attacking innocents, because "opting out" should be done by not attacking innocents.

Govalon wrote: »

Welcome to Elder Scrolls. This is exactly how it is supposed to work if the intention is to make thieving-system like in single player games.

<< guys you realize The Elder Scroll series used to be singleplayers, but ESO is an mmo ...right? The Justice System is flawed, badly designed and executed. For the other Elder Scroll games you could download mods, change everything... in ESO we're limited, can't change the game to what we want, so we have to write to Zenimax to change it - and hope they listen.

How is it flawed, badly designed and executed? (Hint: you always getting caught does not constitute bad design.)

And yes, you could always modify and Elder Scrolls single-player game and do all kinds of things you can't do in an MMO. But if you didn't like the core game without mods, it seems strange that you would have wanted to play an MMO in that world.

Ysne58 · March 2015

As far as loose items go, all the devs need to do is add in a message with an option to cancel taking the item. That has been done for containers I don't see why that can't happen for individual items.

GreySix · March 2015

I'd be fine with completely toggling off the justice system, but potential for abuse would exist were it not done right.

"Oops! Looks like I got caught stealing something, so lemme just toggle this off..."