A plea to the PvP community (And PvE'ers too)…

Yolokin_Swagonborn · March 2015

With the Tamriel Unlimited launch upon us, there has been something bothering me specifically about the PvP community and how we handle ourselves and communicate with ZOS and with each other on these forums. I have finally been able to put it all to words so get ready for a giant wall of text, but first, a few pre-emptive statements to prevent this thread from getting derailed or censored.

This thread is addressed to PvP'ers but it effects PvE as well. PvE'rs are important stakeholders in this and their input on this topic is both requested and appreciated. As such, this thread belongs in the "General Discussion" section and should NOT be moved to another forum or hidden.
This thread is NOT a PvP gripe thread. There are plenty of those already. If you wish to express your frustration with current PvP bugs, lag, or Band-aid fixes that take away all the fun, there are already Plenty of threads for that.
This thread is about specifically what the PvP and PvE community can do to make PvP better - NOT ZOS. As such, this thread will make no demands on ZOS. If your suggestion starts with "PvP would be fixed if ZOS would just…" it belongs in another post.

So on to the main premise: Our current methods of trying to improve the PvP experience and address current and long outstanding issues that cause rage inducing frustration (leading to burnout and people leaving the game) are ineffective.

We have tried posting here and on other forums, submitting bug reports, contacting ZOS directly, begging, screaming, and dancing seductively Redguard style at ZOS to address PvP issues but it doesn't feel like we are getting any traction. At worst it leaves us feeling intentionally neglected and ignored. The warriors that fight on the front lines of the Alliance War, ostensibly a key part of the plotline of this entire game, are feeling unappreciated for their efforts. The "imperial throne lies empty" because we can't even sit on it as Emperors because its NOT EVEN IN THE GAME!! The war veterans of Cyrodiil return to PvE zones as second class citizens of Tamriel with subpar gear, rewards, and experience gains. But enough of how we feel. That isn’t the point.

The point is we need to switch tactics. The solution is simple. We need to get more people to PvP.

I don't know the current numbers of people who PvP vs PvE and it is a waste of time to speculate unless ZOS is willing to share hard numbers. Doesn't matter what the numbers are now. They obviously aren't enough. We need more than what we have. More that just one campaign that is population locked and a ton of empty buff servers with occasional PvDoor emperor pushes.

If the issues that occur in Cyrodiil affected a greater portion of people who play ESO, the we would gain much more traction. If crippling lag and game breaking bugs that persist for months only affect a small subportion of the community, then that group can be marginalized, ignored, or pushed off onto a separate forum. If these issues affect everyone, they will be addressed.

So how do we do get more investment in PvP? That is what I want you to help me with. I will add any suggestions in the comments to this list. Here is what I have so far:

Be extra friendly and helpful to new and returning players. PvP can be a scary place for some. With the recent changes in 1.6, a lot of people will feel overwhelmed or ineffective in PvP. They may eat a few bat swarms and snipe sandwiches with a radiant destruction chaser and never come back. But you can help them by teaching them the counters to these abilities instead of just ranting in zone about how much you hate X ability or why it should be nerfed.
Open up your exclusive cliques and TS only groups. One of the most challenging concepts for inexperienced players to understand is that PvP is a group activity. Unless you are well leveled, geared and experienced, solo roaming is not going to be very rewarding. But anyone of any level can fire a mighty siege weapon or heal and make a big difference in the overall battle. Getting into a group, downloading and and configuring a voice chat program, and setting it to "push to talk" seems to be a insurmountable barrier for some. But it can be overcome with patience, kindness, and persistence.
Organize PvP training events. Go into the PvE Zones and recruit people to the cause. ZOS has a whole segment of "community events" on ESO live. Not surprisingly, these events are all RP or PvE. If we had consistent training events, we could get on that list and maybe the ESO livestream wouldn't be such a PvE fest.
Support PvP streamers. There are several members of our community that stream regularly on sites like twitch. Streams bring new players to the game. ESO don't have near the same following as streamers of other games. Sign up and subscribe to their channels and help increase viewership.
Help new players get skyshards in Cyrodiil. Think of it as an "escort mission" with an "NPC" that will never have pathing issues. Do YOU or your guild have the skills to escort the level 23 to skyshards deep in enemy territory without letting them die or get ganked? This could be a whole new mini-game!!!
Add to this list in the comments and I will edit and post it here.

A special appeal to the "Hardcore" PvP guilds.
Fresh meat is coming and I know your fingers will be twitching on your bats button. I'm not going to tell you not to farm new players, I know there's nothing anyone can do to prevent that. We all need morag tong and shadow walker rings. It's part of the game. Just know that there will be plenty new players in your own faction that will get farmed by your enemies. This will feed enemy factions tons of AP. Use your experience in the game to educate players in zone how to not get farmed. In my personal experience, the very guilds people love to hate or accuse of exploiting/cheating/spamming/flying are some of the most helpful and generous players in zone. Do what you can to share the wealth.

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

Summary.
We have tried everything else and it hasn't worked. We need more of "us" as well as the PvE'ers on our side. How do we make this happen?

Edit: There will be a few people in here that don't want to help and just want a soapbox for how much they despise PvP. Arguing with them helps hijack the thread. Don't feed the trolls.

andreasv · March 2015

Nice post. I enjoyed reading something else but the standard rage about PvP. I have recently joined a guild that organizes PvP events on the EU server. On Friday I logged in and joined a large group for such an event. As soon as we were joined by an opposing group of players the whole game became unplayable.

I feel that getting more players to play PvP will result in exactly what I think you try to prevent: "cause rage inducing frustration (leading to burnout and people leaving the game)". I'll try PvP again tonight after the patch, but don't have much hope to see an improvement.

Still nice post, and I share your concern and would love to see an improvement to one of the main selling points of what is an extremely enjoyable game with a great community.

Kragorn · March 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

Since this is clearly addressed to me: my answer is 'nothing' I'm afraid.

I have zero desire to fight other players, I have zero desire to have to deal with their often toxic behaviour (many of you enjoy 'ganking' and 'corpse camping' which of course is 'virtual bullying' when viewed sociologically), their 'smack' talk, their seriously over-competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathic-tendencies view of life.

No, I'm not for a minute saying ALL PVPers are like this, but enough are to make it an area of the game I will not go to: which saddens me, there's a lot of good PVE content in Cyrodiil I'll never get to enjoy because I'm not prepared to suffer PVPers in order to do so.

I did PVP, years ago, for a couple of days and realised I'd rather not play on-line games at all if that was the only option.

I see nothing whatsoever appealing about PVP. I play RPGs for exploration, character progression and story telling, aspects which are entirely absent or at best irrelevant to PVP.

I wish PVP didn't exist in this game, I was really saddened when I learned a long time before launch it was going to be a part of the game. ESO is the poorer for it due to the incessant nerfing ZOS do with major negative effects on the PVE side trying (and failing) to appease the PVP QQ about OP this-build/that-build/the-other-build: Eric's justification for the Negate nerf was appallingly PVP-centric with no thought about it's seriously negative effects on PVE.

Xyain · March 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.

I have zero desire to fight other players, I have zero desire to have to deal with their often toxic behaviour (many of you enjoy 'ganking' and 'corpse camping' which of course is 'virtual bullying' when viewed sociologically), their 'smack' talk, their seriously over-competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathic-tendencies view of life.

I agree with Kragorn.

PvP is usually about the same in every game out there. The players sick with their small groups of experienced friends and gank newbies. While its true that not ALL PvPers are that way, this group of people ruin it for the rest, because they have such a negative impact.

So until PvP no longer involves players, I will continue with my PvE....oh wait....

dawnhawk · March 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Since this is clearly addressed to me: my answer is 'nothing' I'm afraid.

This, but for different reasons. I used to live PvP in other games. I tried it here. I didn't stop because of lag, or imbalance or anything else. I enjoyed the "PvP" part of cyrodil when I was there. Just not the culture.

But I've watched 15+ years of PvP at this point and there is nothing you can do, because you will never get the culture to change completely. Not pessimism, just realism. People play differently than each other and there is nothing wrong with it, I'm just not inclined toward spending my time on it anymore. Luckily most of those who annoy me the greatest gravitate towards PvP (or first person shooters) making them easy to avoid. I'm content to leave them to it and go do any of the other million things I enjoyed in gaming.

Roechacca · March 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

Since this is clearly addressed to me: my answer is 'nothing' I'm afraid.

I have zero desire to fight other players, I have zero desire to have to deal with their often toxic behaviour (many of you enjoy 'ganking' and 'corpse camping' which of course is 'virtual bullying' when viewed sociologically), their 'smack' talk, their seriously over-competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathic-tendencies view of life.

No, I'm not for a minute saying ALL PVPers are like this, but enough are to make it an area of the game I will not go to: which saddens me, there's a lot of good PVE content in Cyrodiil I'll never get to enjoy because I'm not prepared to suffer PVPers in order to do so.

I did PVP, years ago, for a couple of days and realised I'd rather not play on-line games at all if that was the only option.

I see nothing whatsoever appealing about PVP. I play RPGs for exploration, character progression and story telling, aspects which are entirely absent or at best irrelevant to PVP.

I wish PVP didn't exist in this game, I was really saddened when I learned a long time before launch it was going to be a part of the game. ESO is the poorer for it due to the incessant nerfing ZOS do with major negative effects on the PVE side trying (and failing) to appease the PVP QQ about OP this-build/that-build/the-other-build: Eric's justification for the Negate nerf was appallingly PVP-centric with no thought about it's seriously negative effects on PVE.

You're not helping

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

Well thought out and organized post.

I skimmed, not gonna lie. If anything I would add:

In a certain radius around quest hubs, don't gank people (esp. newbs) turning in quests. If you insist on engaging someone this way, at least make your presence known, 1v1 or XvX and give them something of a fighting chance.

Many times the first time people set foot in Cyro, this is the experience they get...and they get a seriously bad taste in their mouth because of it.

It's almost unfortunate that there is not an additional grey area, a learner's permit, if you will until you achieve a certain PvP rank.

Not everyone is stubborn or determined. If they feel they have zero chance, they'll likely never return.

(And ahead of time, I get the Cyro's a warzone, don't enter alone, expect this, expect that kinda stuff. The truth is, people's first experience will set the mood and they don't always (have the option) to enter under ideal conditions.

Getting dropped by 2v1 from 40m while trying to read a questgiver's dialogue will not bring you more PvPers...

There can be honor, even in war.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · March 2015

Roechacca wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

Since this is clearly addressed to me: my answer is 'nothing' I'm afraid.

I have zero desire to fight other players, I have zero desire to have to deal with their often toxic behaviour (many of you enjoy 'ganking' and 'corpse camping' which of course is 'virtual bullying' when viewed sociologically), their 'smack' talk, their seriously over-competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathic-tendencies view of life.

No, I'm not for a minute saying ALL PVPers are like this, but enough are to make it an area of the game I will not go to: which saddens me, there's a lot of good PVE content in Cyrodiil I'll never get to enjoy because I'm not prepared to suffer PVPers in order to do so.

I did PVP, years ago, for a couple of days and realised I'd rather not play on-line games at all if that was the only option.

I see nothing whatsoever appealing about PVP. I play RPGs for exploration, character progression and story telling, aspects which are entirely absent or at best irrelevant to PVP.

I wish PVP didn't exist in this game, I was really saddened when I learned a long time before launch it was going to be a part of the game. ESO is the poorer for it due to the incessant nerfing ZOS do with major negative effects on the PVE side trying (and failing) to appease the PVP QQ about OP this-build/that-build/the-other-build: Eric's justification for the Negate nerf was appallingly PVP-centric with no thought about it's seriously negative effects on PVE.

You're not helping

We are definately going to get some PvE'ers in this thread that are just going to express their utter distaste for our very existence and wish that we weren't in the game. There is vitriol on both sides.

You can help by making sure this thread doesn't devolve into a PvE vs. PvP shouting match instead of just slapping people with fishes.

Sometimes PvP vs. PvE development feels like a zero sum game. If one get attention, the other gets neglected. If one gets a buff, the other gets a nerf.

There have been suggestions to remedy this but still, how do we get the people who aren't totally against PvP or gloating at our problems to PvP more?

Chillic · March 2015

The sooner people realize this is a game and death is only temporary, the more fun you will have. You got killed and t-bag'd? Laugh it off, the balls don't actually touch you, though some come pretty close. Log in and log off with a pocket full of ***, its a game.

Now lag???? that's some serious ***!!! *** that ***.

Kragorn · March 2015

Roechacca wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

Since this is clearly addressed to me: my answer is 'nothing' I'm afraid.

I have zero desire to fight other players, I have zero desire to have to deal with their often toxic behaviour (many of you enjoy 'ganking' and 'corpse camping' which of course is 'virtual bullying' when viewed sociologically), their 'smack' talk, their seriously over-competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathic-tendencies view of life.

No, I'm not for a minute saying ALL PVPers are like this, but enough are to make it an area of the game I will not go to: which saddens me, there's a lot of good PVE content in Cyrodiil I'll never get to enjoy because I'm not prepared to suffer PVPers in order to do so.

I did PVP, years ago, for a couple of days and realised I'd rather not play on-line games at all if that was the only option.

I see nothing whatsoever appealing about PVP. I play RPGs for exploration, character progression and story telling, aspects which are entirely absent or at best irrelevant to PVP.

I wish PVP didn't exist in this game, I was really saddened when I learned a long time before launch it was going to be a part of the game. ESO is the poorer for it due to the incessant nerfing ZOS do with major negative effects on the PVE side trying (and failing) to appease the PVP QQ about OP this-build/that-build/the-other-build: Eric's justification for the Negate nerf was appallingly PVP-centric with no thought about it's seriously negative effects on PVE.

You're not helping

He asked what he could do, I told him why he couldn't do anything. You may not like it but many of us who never PVP think like I do, though perhaps not always so vehemently.

PVP isn't a playstyle that appeals to me personally, but even if it did (and some of my on-lines friends would be inclined in other circumstances) some of the other players often make it unattractive. As an NPC in this game says (I forget which one) "I love Tramriel, it's just the people I hate".

Kragorn · March 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

Since this is clearly addressed to me: my answer is 'nothing' I'm afraid.

I have zero desire to fight other players, I have zero desire to have to deal with their often toxic behaviour (many of you enjoy 'ganking' and 'corpse camping' which of course is 'virtual bullying' when viewed sociologically), their 'smack' talk, their seriously over-competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathic-tendencies view of life.

No, I'm not for a minute saying ALL PVPers are like this, but enough are to make it an area of the game I will not go to: which saddens me, there's a lot of good PVE content in Cyrodiil I'll never get to enjoy because I'm not prepared to suffer PVPers in order to do so.

I did PVP, years ago, for a couple of days and realised I'd rather not play on-line games at all if that was the only option.

I see nothing whatsoever appealing about PVP. I play RPGs for exploration, character progression and story telling, aspects which are entirely absent or at best irrelevant to PVP.

I wish PVP didn't exist in this game, I was really saddened when I learned a long time before launch it was going to be a part of the game. ESO is the poorer for it due to the incessant nerfing ZOS do with major negative effects on the PVE side trying (and failing) to appease the PVP QQ about OP this-build/that-build/the-other-build: Eric's justification for the Negate nerf was appallingly PVP-centric with no thought about it's seriously negative effects on PVE.

You're not helping

We are definately going to get some PvE'ers in this thread that are just going to express their utter distaste for our very existence and wish that we weren't in the game. There is vitriol on both sides.

You can help by making sure this thread doesn't devolve into a PvE vs. PvP shouting match instead of just slapping people with fishes.

Sometimes PvP vs. PvE development feels like a zero sum game. If one get attention, the other gets neglected. If one gets a buff, the other gets a nerf.

There have been suggestions to remedy this but still, how do we get the people who aren't totally against PvP or gloating at our problems to PvP more?

PVP works in a PVP-based game, clearly from player numbers ESO isn't one such. EVE is a classic example to me of an entirely PVP-oriented game and it works very well from what I can see.

However, I know on no hybrid PVP/PVE game where the two 'sides' coexist peacefully and your comment about a 'zero sum game' is a big part of the problem: but also PVPers who sneer at PVEers as carebears and other disdainful epithets are the biggest problem YOU face in trying to attract those who may be amenable to trying PVP and they [the smack-talkers] aren't going to go away any time soon.

You call me vitriolic and maybe I am, I'm certainly not scared to voice unpalatable views, but those views are born from personal experience and a lot of watching/reading on MMO forums of the 7 MMOs I currently play.

Roechacca · March 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

Since this is clearly addressed to me: my answer is 'nothing' I'm afraid.

I have zero desire to fight other players, I have zero desire to have to deal with their often toxic behaviour (many of you enjoy 'ganking' and 'corpse camping' which of course is 'virtual bullying' when viewed sociologically), their 'smack' talk, their seriously over-competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathic-tendencies view of life.

No, I'm not for a minute saying ALL PVPers are like this, but enough are to make it an area of the game I will not go to: which saddens me, there's a lot of good PVE content in Cyrodiil I'll never get to enjoy because I'm not prepared to suffer PVPers in order to do so.

I did PVP, years ago, for a couple of days and realised I'd rather not play on-line games at all if that was the only option.

I see nothing whatsoever appealing about PVP. I play RPGs for exploration, character progression and story telling, aspects which are entirely absent or at best irrelevant to PVP.

I wish PVP didn't exist in this game, I was really saddened when I learned a long time before launch it was going to be a part of the game. ESO is the poorer for it due to the incessant nerfing ZOS do with major negative effects on the PVE side trying (and failing) to appease the PVP QQ about OP this-build/that-build/the-other-build: Eric's justification for the Negate nerf was appallingly PVP-centric with no thought about it's seriously negative effects on PVE.

You're not helping

He asked what he could do, I told him why he couldn't do anything. You may not like it but many of us who never PVP think like I do, though perhaps not always so vehemently.

PVP isn't a playstyle that appeals, but even if it did the other players make it unattractive. As an NPC in this game says (I forget which one) "I love Tramriel, it's just the people I hate".

What Eva . That was clearly a "I wish you didn't exist here" post disguised in justifiable tears of past accosted posterior pain . For that he gets the fish ...

Maidenname · March 2015

I am a very PVE oriented until I went out to try PVP because I need EXTRA skill points and unlock ALL the Alliance War skills and awesome passives.... And I was hooked right to the core. But until last 3 months when lag was unbearable, I had to stop at the rank level which was enough to unlock my max Alliance passives. I must say PVP in ESO is really great and and I do encourage all players who only PVE to try out PVP.... And several skills are very, very USEFUL for PVE endgame.... Truthfully. Like I said several times in other thread, you paid for the game, why not experience both world contents?

And to enjoy the PVP side, it is good to join a PVP Guild to experience a larger size and organized raid...but my experience with them has been short lived due to the epic drama in the NA PVP world when the population imbalance which tip the iceberg from one alliance to another. Suddenly PVP became a jolt from garden stroll to constant wake of zerging nightmare and lag fest. And the lack of organized PVP Guilds options to choose from , makes PVP grouping harder to find due to the maxed 24 man raid and then some farming groups that prefer lesser number of people in their group so they can get better AP points from kills.

Like OP thread suggest, I am hoping more ex players will return and maybe with lots of new skillful players, there will be available new and good PVP Guilds established. Let's help make and improve our PVP community and support from the PVE community. Don't be afraid to die, if we farm our enemies for AP , they too need to farm us likewise...we all still get the PVP rewards. You die and respawned and fight again but it makes the PVP community more pleasant if players who died NOT to send hate whispers or teabagging please.

As for PVE content in Cyrodiil, please try to go to a lesser competitive campaign so there are available spots for Pvpers to enter that campaign for PVP only (Thornblade). If you see an enemy doing PVE stuff in the lesser active campaign, try to send whisper or signal that you want to be out of their way and go on questing. If you start hitting them, expect likewise..and if they attack you first, well...a fight back is called for. There's plenty of skill points available to gain in Cyrodiil, so why not go out with your Guildies.

Rook_Master · March 2015

So you're saying I shouldn't camp Bruma and gank lvl 10s with my legendary geared V14?

Streega · March 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try?

I'm a PvE'er and I apreciate your effort, so I gave you +1. But the answer is NOTHING. Why? Because:

No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs.

[...]

We have tried everything else and it hasn't worked. We need more of "us" as well as the PvE'ers on our side. How do we make this happen?

I wrote it before and I'll write again: give us some space. One-two hours a day or maybe one evening in a week, make some kind of truce. During that time I would gladly visit Cyrodill, do some PvE stuff, and maybe then learn from you how to become a PvP'er (but in a friendly manner, so when I say "stop" or "leave me alone", you will stop - of course only during the truce). When I see that you can be reasoned with, I'll stay and maybe help you with your silly war. Until then - sorry, you are nothing more than a bunch of thugs for me and I stay away from thugs.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

mikeandsharrahub17_ESO wrote: »

The sooner people realize this is a game and death is only temporary, the more fun you will have. You got killed and t-bag'd? Laugh it off, the balls don't actually touch you, though some come pretty close. Log in and log off with a pocket full of ***, its a game.

Now lag???? that's some serious ***!!! *** that ***.

@mikeandsharrahub17_ESO , it's usually not the death that's disturbing...it's the 30 minute hike uphill both ways...

You (as a new guy) take the time to cautiously stealth with 3 of your closest new-guy friends halfway across the map simply to explore this wonderful new zone only to become part of some 10 rider gang-initiation in the process...

Whether by rank, or by time, an extra buff / mitigation, beyond the battle leveling would help in this regard.

It could even be account wide, so if you're sitting at Major on one character, you don't get the benefit of the new-to-PvP bonus that someone truly new would get.

Not trying to get Recruits to overtake the map, but they could find a way to split the difference...

Yolokin_Swagonborn · March 2015

@Maidenname
Thanks for adding a positive story to this post! I have helped a few PvE oriented players acquire their bloodlust in PvP.

One was on the verge of giving up (thinking her nightblade would never be powerful in pvp (lol) and that she needed to be a DK to be effective). I helped her get skyshards in cyrodiil and now she is a leader/officer in a major PvP guild.

You never know if the new player you help will be the next guild leader in cyrodiil.

AbraXuSeXile · March 2015

I will grief everybody.

RDMyers65b14_ESO · March 2015

I used to PvP. I enjoy Cyrodil. I had never PvPed before this game.

Then I ran into the horrible attitudes of some of the other PvPers.

If I wanted to be insulted constantly, I can find that in the real world. I come to the game to escape the real world. I am not going to listen to some child who is literally younger than my own children scream at me for not being a good PvPer.

When the players in PvP can respect everyone else, then I might try it again.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

So you're saying I shouldn't camp Bruma and gank lvl 10s with my legendary geared V14?

(I know it's rhetorical) @Rook_Master , only if you consider it a fair fight.

They already removed deer and torchbugs, and there are barely any wolves left. I suspect the three of those generally would pose more threat to you than the poor new guy that literally doesn't know what just hit him.

Not judging, I've gotten the occasional easy kill too. I just try not to do it anymore.

I like to fire off one warning shot as a "Lesson 1: Always be aware of your surroundings, as the next guy might kill you."

Now if they choose to engage you (Just make yourself visible - what will it hurt), then all is fair...

VagabondAngel · March 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

He asked what he could do, I told him why he couldn't do anything.

But this thread is intended to be a discussion about how PvPers can try to enhance the PvP experience for newcomers who have no pre-conceptions and/or make it more palatable to people who may be on the fence after an initially negative experience. It is not a vehicle for your anti-PvP propaganda so please refrain from that approach. You have your opinion and clearly will not change your mind - fine, this topic does not apply to you. You don't gain anything by trying to make people avoid PvP whereas we do gain from people actually trying it, so sit this one out eh?

Maidenname · March 2015

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

I used to PvP. I enjoy Cyrodil. I had never PvPed before this game.

Then I ran into the horrible attitudes of some of the other PvPers.

If I wanted to be insulted constantly, I can find that in the real world. I come to the game to escape the real world. I am not going to listen to some child who is literally younger than my own children scream at me for not being a good PvPer.

When the players in PvP can respect everyone else, then I might try it again.

The worst is seeing all the trolling in zone chats. When there is truly a siege and scouts sending out warnings in zonecchats, these warnings are lost and buried among tons of irrelevant chats that by the time players were made aware, the keep or outpost is gone. Yep, it is good and helpful to click the button on known players that troll and chat too much in zonechat.

An experience PVP player from another MMO game is a valuable addition to ESO. However, the difference is the different type of dynamics and tricks used and engaged here that pose the initial stumbling block to new players who wants to try out PVP in Cyrodiil. I know there are several Guilds that run some form of training for their new PVP players so that everyone learn how to coordinate the attacks together alongside some planned and tricky moves that pug players or inexperienced player cannot engage effectively. Harsh as it appears, but this is one factor that deters many good but inexperienced PVE or PVP players to try out group PVP in Cyrodiil.

Keep checking and look for a good group or PVP Guild to fit in. This is similar in PVE too..... PVP Guild well organized group is just as serious as an efficient PVE trial group in SO (Serpent Trials).... They do require some prerequisite training and fine tuning to make the whole run an effective and enjoyable experience. Its more than just pew pew skills

andreasv · March 2015

I guess some kind of unwritten codex would help reducing the frustration somewhat. I had two occasions where a lower level enemy attacked me whilst picking up / returning a quest. After a minute of fighting and me grinding down his/her hp he/she realized that there's no winning and simply stood still. When I saw that the player gave up I simply sheathed my weapon and returned questing.

I know there are players who are happy to keep on attacking you for another minute just to get the kill, but those will not ruin my experience and make me not experience this part of the game.

On a side note: WTH has just happened to the forum?!!?

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

andreasv wrote: »

I guess some kind of unwritten codex would help reducing the frustration somewhat. I had two occasions where a lower level enemy attacked me whilst picking up / returning a quest. After a minute of fighting and me grinding down his/her hp he/she realized that there's now winning and simply stood still. When I saw that the player gave up I simply sheathed my weapon and returned questing.

I know there are players who are happy to keep on attacking you for another minute just to get the kill, but those will not ruin my experience and make me not experience this part of the game.

On a side note: WTH has just happened to the forum?!!?

@andreasv , sheath your weapon.

Universal sign of "I'm not here to fight you."

Now disregard that, and I don't care what level you are, it ends with you on your back.

Tandor · March 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

Since this is clearly addressed to me: my answer is 'nothing' I'm afraid.

I have zero desire to fight other players, I have zero desire to have to deal with their often toxic behaviour (many of you enjoy 'ganking' and 'corpse camping' which of course is 'virtual bullying' when viewed sociologically), their 'smack' talk, their seriously over-competitive-to-the-point-of-sociopathic-tendencies view of life.

No, I'm not for a minute saying ALL PVPers are like this, but enough are to make it an area of the game I will not go to: which saddens me, there's a lot of good PVE content in Cyrodiil I'll never get to enjoy because I'm not prepared to suffer PVPers in order to do so.

I did PVP, years ago, for a couple of days and realised I'd rather not play on-line games at all if that was the only option.

I see nothing whatsoever appealing about PVP. I play RPGs for exploration, character progression and story telling, aspects which are entirely absent or at best irrelevant to PVP.

I wish PVP didn't exist in this game, I was really saddened when I learned a long time before launch it was going to be a part of the game. ESO is the poorer for it due to the incessant nerfing ZOS do with major negative effects on the PVE side trying (and failing) to appease the PVP QQ about OP this-build/that-build/the-other-build: Eric's justification for the Negate nerf was appallingly PVP-centric with no thought about it's seriously negative effects on PVE.

This sums up my position on PvP very well.

All I would add is that if you want me to be supportive of PvP as a significant part of ESO for those who enjoy it then (a) keep it in Cyrodil, do not seek to extend it into the open world (including as part of the Justice System), and (b) campaign for any skill or class balancing changes to be applied only in Cyrodil and not throughout the rest of the game unless there is a clear case for them to be made in PvE as well as PvP. There's unlikely to be anything that would entice me into PvP, but these are the sorts of things that would bring the PvP and PvE communities closer together and that's probably a critical pre-requisite to getting more PvEers to try PvP.

Samadhi · March 2015

Chillic wrote: »

The sooner people realize this is a game and death is only temporary, the more fun you will have. ...

This is very true, and unfortunately not much can be done from outside to facilitate this sort of growth.

Tonturri · March 2015

Hey! Nice thread. *tosses in a couple coins* I've done strictly PvE so far, except for a little bit of Skyshard hunting.

One thing keeps me from PvPing - that is, time taken to find something to fight. It would be nice to know if there is a vast difference for that between a normal horse and one I've had the speed increased for a month or so. I haven't bothered to upgrade my horse at all.

I love fighting. Which means I die a lot. In ESO PvP, it seems I spend far too much time running back to the fight than getting beat up

Psychobunni · March 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

As a PVE'er that has been pushed to my limits on my skills being changed and my now parked "magicka based" sorc main, what would make me most interested in PVP would be to see the PVP community advocate loudly for there to be a separation of skills from PVE to PVP. Instead of XXX skill is to OP, nerf it threads....advocate Cyrodiil only changes.

On one of the few occasions I was in Cyro, pre-snipe nerf, I actually saw someone saying "spam tickets and the forum for them to nerf it"....and it becomes a problem when said nerfs make PVE more difficult, skills useless, or even whole builds destroyed (crushing shock)

If the PVP community could ask for their changes in a manner that doesn't destroy things on the PVE side as well, I don't believe there would be so much animosity from PVE players.

Rook_Master · March 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

An appeal to PvE'ers.
This thread may not seem to be about you but it is. We want you to PvP and experience the same thrills and excitement we do when we play it. What could the PvP community (not ZOS) do for you that would convince you to play more or give cyrodill another try? No, we won't stop using that one ability that kills you, we like that skill - it works well, as you have seen on your kill logs. But we could teach you how to not die from it so much. Or invite you to one of our teamspeak groups and show you the ropes. A lot has changed in Cyrodill in 1.6. What would it take for you to give it another try?

As a PVE'er that has been pushed to my limits on my skills being changed and my now parked "magicka based" sorc main, what would make me most interested in PVP would be to see the PVP community advocate loudly for there to be a separation of skills from PVE to PVP. Instead of XXX skill is to OP, nerf it threads....advocate Cyrodiil only changes.

On one of the few occasions I was in Cyro, pre-snipe nerf, I actually saw someone saying "spam tickets and the forum for them to nerf it"....and it becomes a problem when said nerfs make PVE more difficult, skills useless, or even whole builds destroyed (crushing shock)

If the PVP community could ask for their changes in a manner that doesn't destroy things on the PVE side as well, I don't believe there would be so much animosity from PVE players.

No. The game should balance around PvP. Period.

The monsters don't complain when abilities are OP.

Psychobunni · March 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

No. The game should balance around PvP. Period.

The monsters don't complain when abilities are OP.

And that attitude is why PVE players hope Cyrodiil is never fixed and PVP players move on to the next game.

ItsGlaive · March 2015

Incredibly constructive, great post! We could all do with being a little more helpful, and I say that as someone who hasn't PVP'd in a while.

As for ganking, PVP is a competitive game. You wouldn't avoid tackling a competitor in football, so why tiptoe round a competitor in PVP? It can be irritating I know, but it can also be part of the fun. They'll get theirs too, believe me