Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I think it's hilarious that people who are not Sorcs think Sorcs are in great shape based on their (anecdotal) performance in 1v1 PvP.

First of all, where the heck is all this 1v1 PvP happening? 'Cause it sure ain't happening anywhere in Cyrodiil I've ever been. Here's my Sorc's experience:

1) Look at map for any battles in progress.

2) Ride horse for 5 minutes to front line.

3) Spot an Enemy...

4) Attack! Wait... where's all that lag coming from?

5) 3 seconds later, get crushed by EP zerg.

6) Go back to Step #1.

At no point in this process would a friggin' Clannfear save your sorry ass.

You can show me all the YouTube videos you want, 1v1 PvP, if it exists at all, is not relevant to any discussion of the problems plaguing Sorcs.

And what sort of buffs/nerfs/state of Sorc do you think would have any impact on this scenario of yours? Are you attempting to use one worthless anecdote to counter another?

Snit wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

And what sort of buffs/nerfs/state of Sorc do you think would have any impact on this scenario of yours? Are you attempting to use one worthless anecdote to counter another?

I think she's just saying that using structured duels between top-skilled players is not especially relevant to the gameplay experience for almost everyone else in Cyrodiil.

You can learn a lot from the streamers. I've improved my play for having watched some of Sypher/ Leper's vids, for example. But most AvA is group-oriented, from ganking duos through zergs. Awesome S&B sustain builds don't provide great data on balance for those scenarios.

Well, if someone can produce some good organized 8v8 results with a great discussion in the breakdown, that would be great. Until then it might be difficult to convey the plight of the poor sorcerer... I mean apparently it is I guess since 1.6 isn't exactly choc full of sorc goodness.

strifing and rallies all the way.

Jahosefat wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

GDB is no longer the most powerful self heal, Clannfear Dismissing shall reign supreme!

seriously, with 48k hp it heals for 29k instantly, no matter where your hp bar is, and for roughly the same, possibly less MP as Breath of Life for templars.

its so easy to just double tap while your clanfear is out to heal and resummon in the same step... and hey, if it dies to AOE, you get healed anyways.

so ya, if you want a tank purely for the wonderful self heals... get a sorc tank. they also have better razer armor (boundless storm)

I know what my 7day early release character is going to become once 1.6 is out.

only thing DKs will still have that is better, Magma armor.

Expect to see"unkillable" Sorc tank complaints from PvPers ...

Don't forget! You get the full magicka back if you have enough of a max pool, thanks to the Rebate passive, when your pets are "unsummoned or killed" . Not only is it a better heal, but it also can be made free very easily.

The rebate goes off of you max magicka, the heal goes off of you max health. You are going to have to sacrifice one or the other, you can't have both. People should play with this skill before hyping it up as the next "it is almost as OP as GDB + Reflective scales"; lol no it is not.

Cost reductions + good max magicka = rebate covers the cost of the summon itself . All while maintaining plenty of health. I actually did play with it quite a bit on PTS 1.6 in Cyrodiil to boot. While I never agreed "reflective scales/gdb" were particularly awesomely amazingly strong as people always proclaimed, the difference here is really that it can be made to be free to cast while also acting as a mana battery and being able to be cast in advance before entering combat to boot (no need to spend magicka to use it, and it pays for enough to summon another if needed, ad nauseum). I'm not saying it needs to be nerfed or anything, but passing it off as unimportant just isn't true .

(Let's face it, gdb heals for little unless you're at very low health already due to it being a third of your missing health not total (I rarely even included it in my builds), and reflective scales doesn't provide any incredible use even in the unlimited reflects form unless you run into a poor opponent who just spams projectiles anyway, where it then is really his issue not the ability's causing it. Templars always have had far better self-healing moves, and sorcs had an immensely more powerful weapon power buff to make their resto staff heal well if they wanted, which they'd generally be using for the crit healing aspect as well anyway).

Regarding so-called "clunkiness" of casting, I failed to have any issue triggering it 100% reliably without fail after I realized on the second time I tried it on PTS at all, I needed to simply wait a half a second literally before tapping the button again. That's really a non-factor.

You forgot about the change to light armor making sorcs squishy as hell. Also the crit surge nerfs...

That heal was designed to replace some of the nerfs but... its not as cool as the DK one. Keep in mind the DK heal also gives a lot of regeneration... stamina too.

Also, sorcs don`t have other things... its what makes the classes unique.

Erock25 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Theres effectively a cooldown on it, you have to wait for the summon animation to finish before you can do it again, so while the heal per cast is 2%(!) stronger then GDB, you cant spam it nearly as effective as GDB

Actually it is stronger than 2%. It would only be 2% if a DK waited until they were at nearly zero health to hit GDB. A DK's heal is based on missing health, where a sorc gets that heal based on their full health pool, and it always the same heal.

You are right that it isn't quite as spammable though.

As someone with vets of each class, I think the new sorc heal is a tad strong and probably should come down a bit, but hopefully they don't over nerf it and break it because it's nice having that burst heal. Now if only my NB could have a burst heal not based on your opponent being dead already or a class shield I'd feel the classes were closer to even. (Closer, DK is still a bit more powerful than everything else).

They shouldn't nerf the clannfear heal but instead change rebate to give 8% magicka and 8% stamina.

So you want summons to cost equal magicka and stamina to cast, and to cost both resources each time they are cast?

Seems fair.

No, I said nothing about including a stamina cost.

Then why would it be giving a rebate on Stamina if no Stamina cost were involved?

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

GDB is no longer the most powerful self heal, Clannfear Dismissing shall reign supreme!

seriously, with 48k hp it heals for 29k instantly, no matter where your hp bar is, and for roughly the same, possibly less MP as Breath of Life for templars.

its so easy to just double tap while your clanfear is out to heal and resummon in the same step... and hey, if it dies to AOE, you get healed anyways.

so ya, if you want a tank purely for the wonderful self heals... get a sorc tank. they also have better razer armor (boundless storm)

I know what my 7day early release character is going to become once 1.6 is out.

only thing DKs will still have that is better, Magma armor.

Expect to see"unkillable" Sorc tank complaints from PvPers ...

Don't forget! You get the full magicka back if you have enough of a max pool, thanks to the Rebate passive, when your pets are "unsummoned or killed" . Not only is it a better heal, but it also can be made free very easily.

The rebate goes off of you max magicka, the heal goes off of you max health. You are going to have to sacrifice one or the other, you can't have both. People should play with this skill before hyping it up as the next "it is almost as OP as GDB + Reflective scales"; lol no it is not.

Cost reductions + good max magicka = rebate covers the cost of the summon itself . All while maintaining plenty of health. I actually did play with it quite a bit on PTS 1.6 in Cyrodiil to boot. While I never agreed "reflective scales/gdb" were particularly awesomely amazingly strong as people always proclaimed, the difference here is really that it can be made to be free to cast while also acting as a mana battery and being able to be cast in advance before entering combat to boot (no need to spend magicka to use it, and it pays for enough to summon another if needed, ad nauseum). I'm not saying it needs to be nerfed or anything, but passing it off as unimportant just isn't true .

(Let's face it, gdb heals for little unless you're at very low health already due to it being a third of your missing health not total (I rarely even included it in my builds), and reflective scales doesn't provide any incredible use even in the unlimited reflects form unless you run into a poor opponent who just spams projectiles anyway, where it then is really his issue not the ability's causing it. Templars always have had far better self-healing moves, and sorcs had an immensely more powerful weapon power buff to make their resto staff heal well if they wanted, which they'd generally be using for the crit healing aspect as well anyway).

Regarding so-called "clunkiness" of casting, I failed to have any issue triggering it 100% reliably without fail after I realized on the second time I tried it on PTS at all, I needed to simply wait a half a second literally before tapping the button again. That's really a non-factor.

and thats why you stumbled upon it in your great proving otherwise video out side of cyrodiil without any pressure nor latency.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Theres effectively a cooldown on it, you have to wait for the summon animation to finish before you can do it again, so while the heal per cast is 2%(!) stronger then GDB, you cant spam it nearly as effective as GDB

Actually it is stronger than 2%. It would only be 2% if a DK waited until they were at nearly zero health to hit GDB. A DK's heal is based on missing health, where a sorc gets that heal based on their full health pool, and it always the same heal.

You are right that it isn't quite as spammable though.

As someone with vets of each class, I think the new sorc heal is a tad strong and probably should come down a bit, but hopefully they don't over nerf it and break it because it's nice having that burst heal. Now if only my NB could have a burst heal not based on your opponent being dead already or a class shield I'd feel the classes were closer to even. (Closer, DK is still a bit more powerful than everything else).

They shouldn't nerf the clannfear heal but instead change rebate to give 8% magicka and 8% stamina.

no, they should nerf the rebate to 5% magicka back..and that's it.... The heal is overpowered, and doesn't need to give you an even bigger buff by giving you stamina back as well.

DKs asking for nerfs to sorcs. When will the uber noobness end?

Erock25 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Theres effectively a cooldown on it, you have to wait for the summon animation to finish before you can do it again, so while the heal per cast is 2%(!) stronger then GDB, you cant spam it nearly as effective as GDB

Actually it is stronger than 2%. It would only be 2% if a DK waited until they were at nearly zero health to hit GDB. A DK's heal is based on missing health, where a sorc gets that heal based on their full health pool, and it always the same heal.

You are right that it isn't quite as spammable though.

As someone with vets of each class, I think the new sorc heal is a tad strong and probably should come down a bit, but hopefully they don't over nerf it and break it because it's nice having that burst heal. Now if only my NB could have a burst heal not based on your opponent being dead already or a class shield I'd feel the classes were closer to even. (Closer, DK is still a bit more powerful than everything else).

They shouldn't nerf the clannfear heal but instead change rebate to give 8% magicka and 8% stamina.

They should nerf reflecting scale 2 times more :1) remove proc from syrabane set 2) add +50% cost if cast within 4 sec

Exstazik wrote: »

add +50% cost if cast within 4 sec

On paper that actually isn't a horrible idea for lots of skills, (BE, blazing shield, cloak, scales)... in practice it turned out to be one of the sloppiest and most unmanageable methods of balancing due to ESOs extremely flexible resource system.

IMO, they should just bite the bullet and implement cooldowns for certain skills already. Even 4s cooldowns wouldn't be anything like any other game. I'm certain they won't, but it sure would give them a lot more leeway regarding balance tweaks. Pity.

Just tryed it and it's op, 30k health, 20k magicka, you can use it while blocking , without loosing magicka, 15k heal every 1.5 secs...

O yeah, NB get's a full heal that only costs 1000 magicka. Wait...nope, that was a dream.

sagitter wrote: »

Just tryed it and it's op, 30k health, 20k magicka, you can use it while blocking , without loosing magicka, 15k heal every 1.5 secs...

This sounds like a 3,600 CP problem. Everything breaks at 3,600 CP.

Happily, ZOS has a year or three to fix that.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I think it's hilarious that people who are not Sorcs think Sorcs are in great shape based on their (anecdotal) performance in 1v1 PvP.

First of all, where the heck is all this 1v1 PvP happening? 'Cause it sure ain't happening anywhere in Cyrodiil I've ever been. Here's my Sorc's experience:

You can show me all the YouTube videos you want, 1v1 PvP, if it exists at all, is not relevant to any discussion of the problems plaguing Sorcs.

There is a huge amount of it, actually, both spontaneous or pre arranged such as legacy tournaments or theorycrafter rings to test things out. Additionally, if you are grouped but not overextending, which you shouldn't be, group fights often boil down mechanically to microcosms of 1vX regardless. Also, don't assume... you know what they say about that . But even for people who don't have a sorc,, if they're skilled they know every ability like the back of their hands anyway, rendering that tangent irrelevant. I do have one, just to satiate your curiosity.

Rather than it being people with Sorcerers vs. people without Sorcerers in these conversations, it often instead seems to be people who only play Sorcerer vs. people who actually play Sorcerer as well as other classes.

Funny that.

Also since people are missing how gdb works, here's a comparison. Free cost plus 35% max health is by far objectively superior to 33% of missing health plus medium magicka cost.

With 35k HP...
Dragonknight at 60% uses green dragon blood, gains back (35000 * 0.4) * 0.33 = 4620 HP (fun fact, blessing of protection in resto staff line costs less, adds a buff, heals consistently every time as opposed to being based on how far down you are, and hits all allies in front of you at the same time!). Dragonknight spends 2900ish magicka.

Sorcerer at 60% uses clannfear and immediately desummons it, gains back 35000 * 0.35 = 12250 HP.
-Sorcerer is refunded entire magicka cost of the spell in most offensive based magicka builds you'd want in 1.6 between rebate passive and cost reduction from 2pc light and 3x jewelry glyphs. Maybe sorc even puts in 20 or 30 champ points for spell cost reduction if they're frisky.

Let's do this again, let's say the same toons have been severely injured and want to save themselves.

Dragonknight at 20% HP punches green dragon blood twice. He gets one heal for 9240hp and a second one for 6191hp. Total health restored at about a cost of 5800+ magicka = 15341 hp.

Sorcerer at 20% HP punches his clannfear twice for heals. He gets two heals for 12250hp each. Total health restored at no cost = 24500hp.

Clear?