Potions or buffs choose?

hazune · February 2015

Is it normal that the attributes of using potions do not stack up with our buffs?

For example: If you have turned on the Inner Light, and you use Panacea of Spell Power. Spell crit and spell power will fail to connect. You will get only the Magica recovery. So what is the point of use potions in this moment?

Panda244 · February 2015

hazune wrote: »

Is it normal that the attributes of using potions do not stack up with our buffs?

For example: If you have turned on the Inner Light, and you use Panacea of Spell Power. Spell crit and spell power will fail to connect. You will get only the Magica recovery. So what is the point of use potions in this moment?

none, they don't overlap

Flaminir · February 2015

The buff system has (Will) render a lot of the current normal potions pretty redundant in many builds as the buffs will already be on you from the various skills.

Tri-pots will still be useful for the fact they give you back all three resources, but the current spell power/crit & weapon power/crit potions will be less valuable.

Its a shame really that they couldn't make something more interesting happen with Alchemy & the buff system.... there is potential there to add different buffs to the different herbs (Lets face it... a lot of them are pretty useless at the minute) to take advantage of the new & differing major/minor buffs.

I'm guessing a few of the less used effects may become more desirable & we may see a few other potion combinations becoming more mainstream.

I could actually see the cost of tri-pots going up though... more players when TU launches (Increased demand, but no extra resource nodes) + lower health pools necessitating better healing + stacking heavily into 1 resource for DPS (Meaning 2nd resource needs to be filled regularly)... tri-pots will be more widely required.

Thavie · February 2015

Tri-pots will still be useful for the fact they give you back all three resources, but the current spell power/crit & weapon power/crit potions will be less valuable.

This is sad... I was so sure that potions will stack with buffs!

Flaminir · February 2015

It is a bit sad yes... I can understand why buffs don't stack, and actually agree with the system...

But I wish they had taken 10 minutes to re-jig the alchemy ingredients a little to enable alchemists to make potions with more interesting effects to match the new buffs.

Instead it feels like they just kind of botched it on at the end, which has rendered a number of potions, and quite a few alchemy ingredients pretty redundant.... or at least far less useful / valuable than they were before.

Armitas · February 2015

For a destro staff we won't need spell pots anymore. But it doesn't have to be so. If they would open up the alchemy system to be more diverse we could have potions that give magicka, weapon crit and weapon power. These pots would boost our destro weaving as the L/H that starts the weave is based on weapon power.

There is some odd algorithm going on where weapon power is actually allowing for more damage from spell attacks. For example a 2hander allows for more flame whip damage than a 1hander. So it might even increase magicka based skill damage by increasing weapon power.

Darkonflare15 · February 2015

Armitas wrote: »

For a destro staff we won't need spell pots anymore. But it doesn't have to be so. If they would open up the alchemy system to be more diverse we could have potions that give magicka, weapon crit and weapon power. These pots would boost our destro weaving as the L/H that starts the weave is based on weapon power.

There is some odd algorithm going on where weapon power is actually allowing for more damage from spell attacks. For example a 2hander allows for more flame whip damage than a 1hander. So it might even increase magicka based skill damage by increasing weapon power.

Weird, maybe that's why kept spell power boost and weapon power boost to the skills power surge and sap essence.

vovus69 · February 2015

Yep. This is stupid decision. But I hope it will be reverted in a future. The logic here is that someone is making a focus on abilities and some on food, some on alchemy. If you trained all - you should gain some advantage. And this is normal wrt those who has no alchemy for example. Right now ZOS is feeling other way based on whining of the pvp mob. But I hope it will change in a future. Btw, this is major showstopper for spellcrafting system too - what is the point to make some nice spell if you cannot use it together with other spells? Custom made spells suppose to improve you not make everybody the same...

Bashev · February 2015

The pots buff should be converted to a minor buff if you already have the major buff. Actually all buffs should work like this. I f you have 2 major buffs then the second one is converted to a minor buff.

Exstazik · February 2015

Armitas wrote: »

For a destro staff we won't need spell pots anymore. But it doesn't have to be so. If they would open up the alchemy system to be more diverse we could have potions that give magicka, weapon crit and weapon power. These pots would boost our destro weaving as the L/H that starts the weave is based on weapon power.

There is some odd algorithm going on where weapon power is actually allowing for more damage from spell attacks. For example a 2hander allows for more flame whip damage than a 1hander. So it might even increase magicka based skill damage by increasing weapon power.

L/H staff attacks based on spell power/magicka in 1.6.

Armitas · February 2015

Exstazik wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

For a destro staff we won't need spell pots anymore. But it doesn't have to be so. If they would open up the alchemy system to be more diverse we could have potions that give magicka, weapon crit and weapon power. These pots would boost our destro weaving as the L/H that starts the weave is based on weapon power.

There is some odd algorithm going on where weapon power is actually allowing for more damage from spell attacks. For example a 2hander allows for more flame whip damage than a 1hander. So it might even increase magicka based skill damage by increasing weapon power.

L/H staff attacks based on spell power/magicka in 1.6.

Are you certain? What would the weapon power on a destro staff do if the base attacks are not related to it? That would mean that making a staff legendary would only improve the trait, whereas making a 2 hander legendary would increase the damage and the trait. If that is true we have another imbalance here to add to the list.

Kerioko · February 2015

I actually like the way pots work now. On my stam templar, I can run weapon power pots with 1 potion boost glyph and the alchemy medicinal use passive. This gives me 48 sec worth of pots on a 45 sec cooldown. So I can get my weapon power, weapon crit, and stamina regen buffs from pots and have more skill slots to add in utility since I will not have to run rally, radiant aura, or evil hunter to maintain these buffs.

I can also run rally for the power buff while using panacea of weapon crit to keep up weapon crit, health regen, and stam regen buffs and then use repentance instead of radiant aura to really maximize my health and stam regen.

Bashev · February 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

For a destro staff we won't need spell pots anymore. But it doesn't have to be so. If they would open up the alchemy system to be more diverse we could have potions that give magicka, weapon crit and weapon power. These pots would boost our destro weaving as the L/H that starts the weave is based on weapon power.

There is some odd algorithm going on where weapon power is actually allowing for more damage from spell attacks. For example a 2hander allows for more flame whip damage than a 1hander. So it might even increase magicka based skill damage by increasing weapon power.

L/H staff attacks based on spell power/magicka in 1.6.

Are you certain? What would the weapon power on a destro staff do if the base attacks are not related to it? That would mean that making a staff legendary would only improve the trait, whereas making a 2 hander legendary would increase the damage and the trait. If that is true we have another imbalance here to add to the list.

The power stats on the weapon increase spell power and weapon power. 2h weapons have more power than staffs that is why it makes more damage with class magicka based skills.

Darkonflare15 · February 2015

I like how pots work now to. I can make a restore health and restore stamina health plus weapon crit potion for my night blade because these are the only buffs that I need for my build. So I do not have sacrifice a slot on my bar. I can also make spell crit pots for my mage and now do not have inner light on my bar which frees up space now.

TheBucket · February 2015

Well, considering the potions last 40 seconds, the buffs will be nice and allow you to build with using potions imo.

Flaminir · February 2015

TheBucket wrote: »

Well, considering the potions last 40 seconds, the buffs will be nice and allow you to build with using potions imo.

Hmm... do the buffs last that long? Or is is like 20 seconds and then you have another 25 second cooldown or something like that if I remember correctly?

Scotia · February 2015

If you get the CR passive your use of a potion will save 80 % of your mana

Grao · February 2015

Flaminir wrote: »

The buff system has (Will) render a lot of the current normal potions pretty redundant in many builds as the buffs will already be on you from the various skills.

Tri-pots will still be useful for the fact they give you back all three resources, but the current spell power/crit & weapon power/crit potions will be less valuable.

Its a shame really that they couldn't make something more interesting happen with Alchemy & the buff system.... there is potential there to add different buffs to the different herbs (Lets face it... a lot of them are pretty useless at the minute) to take advantage of the new & differing major/minor buffs.

I'm guessing a few of the less used effects may become more desirable & we may see a few other potion combinations becoming more mainstream.

I could actually see the cost of tri-pots going up though... more players when TU launches (Increased demand, but no extra resource nodes) + lower health pools necessitating better healing + stacking heavily into 1 resource for DPS (Meaning 2nd resource needs to be filled regularly)... tri-pots will be more widely required.

Heh, Zenimax can't even balance out the classes, we can't expect they'd be creative, or even take alchemy into consideration when making their plans. Betting the good potions, the one we really need will be sold on the Crown Store.

Flaminir · February 2015

I've been thinking about this some more.... maybe the stamina/weapon power/crit potions may go up in value a little... especially to start with. These are dirt cheap at the mo... around 4k a stack, and with stamina builds being so strong in 1.6 perhaps there will be more people wanting them, especially for the crit bonus (Which everybody will be lacking following the introduction of the champion system.)

More Stamina players +Reduction in crit levels / Dirt cheap current prices = Price rise.

LtCrunch · February 2015

Flaminir wrote: »

The buff system has (Will) render a lot of the current normal potions pretty redundant in many builds as the buffs will already be on you from the various skills.

Tri-pots will still be useful for the fact they give you back all three resources, but the current spell power/crit & weapon power/crit potions will be less valuable.

Its a shame really that they couldn't make something more interesting happen with Alchemy & the buff system.... there is potential there to add different buffs to the different herbs (Lets face it... a lot of them are pretty useless at the minute) to take advantage of the new & differing major/minor buffs.

I'm guessing a few of the less used effects may become more desirable & we may see a few other potion combinations becoming more mainstream.

I could actually see the cost of tri-pots going up though... more players when TU launches (Increased demand, but no extra resource nodes) + lower health pools necessitating better healing + stacking heavily into 1 resource for DPS (Meaning 2nd resource needs to be filled regularly)... tri-pots will be more widely required.

I disagree, I think it makes them much more valuable as a whole. The buffs provided could open up a slot on your skill bar. That's pretty valuable if you ask me. No need to have inner light, momentum, entropy, or flames of oblivion slotted if you can get the same buff from a potion. Hell potions that grant "unstoppable" might be able to replace immovable completely now if their duration was increased enough with the potion CD/buff changes.

Ultimately I see it as a great thing for opening up build options even more.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2015

I wrote about this issue in my big post on potion-related changes in 1.6, though I haven't updated since 1.6.4 changes. It is indeed sad (especially for Argonians and NBs who relied heavily on potion usage), because it eliminates a really dynamic part of combat and character building.

Here is my idea for potions "stacking" with the Major/Minor buff system:

Potions need to "stack" with active ability buff effects. Obviously, it can't be a simple additive equation as that would be extremely overpowered, but there needs to be a way to keep potions as situational temporary boosts to one's stats/abilities.If an ability you use grants Major Brutality, drinking a potion that gives that same buff should add on top of that in some way. This should be a "smart system," so that if the ability effect wears off, but the potion effect is still active, the potion scales to become the Major buff; if you were to re-use the ability that grants Major Brutality the same potion effect was still active, the potion effect would scale down to its "stacked" buff modifier value. This should hold true for all buffs/effects, including hp/mag/stam regen. This doesn't affect the value of potions themselves, but rather effects how they interact/stack with the same effects offer by abilities in order to retain the complexity and dynamism that skilled potion usage offers. The more ways players can use skill to improve their combat and survival, the better; simplifying combat makes for boring interactions, and leaves little room to hone one's capabilities.

Flaminir · February 2015

Brandalf wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

, but the current spell power/crit & weapon power/crit potions will be less valuable.

I disagree, I think it makes them much more valuable as a whole. The buffs provided could open up a slot on your skill bar. That's pretty valuable if you ask me. No need to have inner light, momentum, entropy, or flames of oblivion slotted if you can get the same buff from a potion. Hell potions that grant "unstoppable" might be able to replace immovable completely now if their duration was increased enough with the potion CD/buff changes.

Ultimately I see it as a great thing for opening up build options even more.

I actually do agree with most of what you say there... it does indeed open up new build options... as I said, I like the idea of the new buff system... it gives us more options & choices and removes the whole idea of stacking whichever is the current fotm buff.

& yes there will be builds that can use potions instead to get these buffs... but that's with quite a specific build... enchants to reduce cooldowns etc etc. Otherwise you are left with a long potion cooldown without the buff (Spell power or whatever).

The vast majority probably won't go for a potion build because it will mean sacrificing other things on gear etc to get that cooldown reduction, and because potions aren't cheap.... just slotting Entropy (Or whatever skill gives whatever buff you want) is free & you can keep 100% up-time on the buff. Also the skills involve do more than just the buffs liste din the potions (EG: The health increase on Entropy, the magicka increase on inner light).

There are lots of skills that give lots of different buffs so still lots of choice.

SO yes, I Agree that it opens up more build options... but I stand by the comment that for the majority of people, and the majority of builds, the fact that the buffs don't stack renders the traditional DPS potions less valuable than they are now. Its a wasted buff in many cases in 1.6 where it would be useful in 1.5

(Unstoppable was what I was thinking about when I said that we may see other combinations popping up! So 100% with you on that one!

LtCrunch · February 2015

Flaminir wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

, but the current spell power/crit & weapon power/crit potions will be less valuable.

I disagree, I think it makes them much more valuable as a whole. The buffs provided could open up a slot on your skill bar. That's pretty valuable if you ask me. No need to have inner light, momentum, entropy, or flames of oblivion slotted if you can get the same buff from a potion. Hell potions that grant "unstoppable" might be able to replace immovable completely now if their duration was increased enough with the potion CD/buff changes.

Ultimately I see it as a great thing for opening up build options even more.

I actually do agree with most of what you say there... it does indeed open up new build options... as I said, I like the idea of the new buff system... it gives us more options & choices and removes the whole idea of stacking whichever is the current fotm buff.

& yes there will be builds that can use potions instead to get these buffs... but that's with quite a specific build... enchants to reduce cooldowns etc etc. Otherwise you are left with a long potion cooldown without the buff (Spell power or whatever).

The vast majority probably won't go for a potion build because it will mean sacrificing other things on gear etc to get that cooldown reduction, and because potions aren't cheap.... just slotting Entropy (Or whatever skill gives whatever buff you want) is free & you can keep 100% up-time on the buff. Also the skills involve do more than just the buffs liste din the potions (EG: The health increase on Entropy, the magicka increase on inner light).

There are lots of skills that give lots of different buffs so still lots of choice.

SO yes, I Agree that it opens up more build options... but I stand by the comment that for the majority of people, and the majority of builds, the fact that the buffs don't stack renders the traditional DPS potions less valuable than they are now. Its a wasted buff in many cases in 1.6 where it would be useful in 1.5

(Unstoppable was what I was thinking about when I said that we may see other combinations popping up! So 100% with you on that one!

In the 1.6.3 patch they made it so the buffs from potions last 40 seconds, with the alchemy medicinal use passive that's up to 43.6 seconds. Potion CD is 45 seconds. So at worst that's 5 seconds without the buff, which could be completely nullified with one potion CD reduction glyph.

So you don't really need to spec into a specialized build at all for the potions to be able to replace the need for specific buff types on your skillbar. Deltia made a video about it, I'll post it below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKGqKcdD5BY

Flaminir · February 2015

Ahh that's interesting @Brandalf ... I missed that one amongst all the other changes! Thanks

In which case yes, that does improve matters for potions quite a lot and helps with the options (Good thing).

Personally I won't be going this route (As I suspect most won't.. hence my comment on the reduced value of the DPS potions)... chugging them on cooldown is just mega expensive in every fight.... you'd get through stacks of them.

In this case I'd rather have Entropy / Inner light and get the extra 8% health & magicka, along with the damage/heals etc.... then have tri-pots slotted for when I'm struggling with the reduced health pools & reduced level of your 2nd resource.

Cheaper & more effective for most people I suspect....

I'm off to go look at some other 'interesting' potion combos that may be more effective now.... you've got me thinking!

LtCrunch · February 2015

Flaminir wrote: »

Ahh that's interesting @Brandalf ... I missed that one amongst all the other changes! Thanks

In which case yes, that does improve matters for potions a little, and helps with the options (Good thing).

Personally I won't be going this route (As I suspect most won't.. hence my comment on the reduced value of the DPS potions)... chugging them on cooldown is just mega expensive in every fight.... you'd get through stacks of them.

In this case I'd rather have Entropy / Inner light and get the extra 8% health & magicka, along with the damage/heals etc.... then have tri-pots slotted for when I'm struggling with the reduced health pools & reduced level of your 2nd resource.

Cheaper & more effective for most people I suspect.

Very good point, hadn't thought about the cost associated with using them in such a way. I'm not sure if that's going to have much of an impact on the alchemy sales or not. I believe most people that buy stacks of them now are people who chug them at endgame every 15 seconds already. I guess time will tell though!

Flaminir · February 2015

Brandalf wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's going to have much of an impact on the alchemy sales or not. I guess time will tell though!

Exactly.... we're all just guessing at this stage.

Harvest everything.

Sell nothing.

That's the approach I'm taking to everything in crafting now until 1.6.... one way or another almost everything is going to be useful (Provisioning excepted), and all looks like it will become more scarce... even just from the perspective of the increased number of players competing for the same number of resource nodes.