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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Sorcerer - Veteran Dungeons, Magicka Problems et al (oh yes, and the new repair cost reality...)
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Kingdinguhling✭✭✭I heard there was a Serious Mishap or Overlap for 2 handed Stamina Sorcerer.
I am trying to find more info on it but from what I am reading a sorc can get 30k Crits with 2 hander Crit. Surge, Ice Comet, Wrecking blow - And heal Well past there max heal with Resolving Vigor and Bound Armaments.
Can anyone Confirm this?
I am hearing 42k Stamina and just ridiculous Numbers.
is this a glitch or is this gonna be allowed.
Personally I wanted a Big buff to magicka Sorc --- wasn't really expecting the god of all gods to be Stamina Sorc
Anyone please respond or post screen shots verifying this please.
I also heard they used off hand Bow with venom arrow and bone shield0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Can we keep this topic on topic please.
This is about LA wearing, staff wielding magicka based Sorcerers and their trend towards extinction...1 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭However, despite just under 30K magicaka, over 980 regeneration, Breton spell cost reduction, over 6% magicka cost reduction from Champion points and all vet 14 gear with Magicka on everything, not to mention 32 points in Magicka... I spent at least half of my fights with less than 20% magicka, and heard that damn clicky-noise telling me I was out of juice almost constantly.
Why again did we need the expert mage passive removed? It was a terrible change to have all costs of storm calling increase by 10%.
People wear an entire seducer set with 5 pieces just to get an 8% cost decrease. This was a huge nerf and it really wasn't intended as a nerf. I don't want the extra spell power. Take it back!3 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
For everyone. But it hits your dps replacing a DoT or DD skill with this, and of course only helps for the staff ability attacks or execute phase of a Sorc unless they use LL, which has it's own problems with moving bosses and/or bosses with adds you don't want to aggro.
Oh and the execute phase is much more expensive now after the passive nerf and the switch from per explosion to per death magicka return.
The point is - no-one was complaining about Sorc sustain, but they nerfed it anyway and for no significant return.Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on February 24, 2015 11:24AM2 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters you were using when your guild acheived them though?
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc. 15% presence in such runs on the latest stats. They are there for the Negate alone... and even that's being nerfed into irrelevance in PvE.
We also both know that magicka sustain is adequate in 1.5.
It isn't close to adequate in 1.6 without dumping your spell damage in the toilet.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), better yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on February 24, 2015 11:45AM0 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
It's different characters for different times, I play whatever the group needs mostly.
I would say mostly the reason you see few Sorcs is because of the attitude that has been cemented in the community that "Sorcerers are bad DPS", I mean I have admittedly super optimal gear (infallible aether + spawn of mephala) but I can do 1,4K on my Sorcerer on Live. Sure, Sorcs without that combo have it a little more rough (1,2K or so) but they are not as bad as it sounds, and I've done sub-10 minute runs with 5 sorcerers in the group. It's a lot more about the skill of the players than the class honestly, at least outside SO (where you need insane AOE dps that only DKs can do currently).
So no, you are wrong when saying Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share. I disagree wholeheartedly and as a raid leader the only time I would put Sorcs on the bench is in SO where I would also only want as many DKs as possible because.. AOE. Good Sorcerers with the right gear do more Single Target DPS than most classes/builds.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
I am really excited about my Sorc in 1.6 even though I seem to be one of the few. Anyway, in my opinion, we need to see how things play out once this goes live.. because it will still take a lot of testing until we know for sure how everything compares to each other.
Also ele drain and siphon spirit can and should be placed by your healer in my opinion.0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
that build drops to 6-7,5k DPs over fights lasting longer than the duration of your atronarch...
compare that to DK builds doing 15-16k+ in craft gear and you realize the problem...
bloody filter the *** are 4 letters for the male reproductive organ
Edited by Tankqull on February 24, 2015 4:33PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"2 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
that build drops to 6-7,5k DPs over fights lasting longer than the duration of your atronarch...
compare that to DK builds doing 16k+ and you realize the problem...
The build will also do more DPS with group buffs and some experience with it.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Dymence✭✭✭✭✭
✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »You've at least quadrupled the rate of degradation of gear in combat!!!
I can't think of a more transparently cynical way to 'encourage' players to spend coins in your shop for repair crates. As a player who no longer ranks among the 'no-lifers', may I offer you my heartfelt thanks for the need to sub to buy repair crates, just to keep my gear from falling to bits 'by design'. It took all of 20 minutes of aoe pulls in the Spellscar for me to have ZERO durability in all seven slots and be biting on a 2K repair bill.
Your gear will be at 0% durability in every slot after 20 minutes of spellscar aoe pulls in the current live version already. If this is your evidence, then I will take your claim that 'gear degradation has been quadrupled' with a grain of salt.0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
It's different characters for different times, I play whatever the group needs mostly.
I would say mostly the reason you see few Sorcs is because of the attitude that has been cemented in the community that "Sorcerers are bad DPS", I mean I have admittedly super optimal gear (infallible aether + spawn of mephala) but I can do 1,4K on my Sorcerer on Live. Sure, Sorcs without that combo have it a little more rough (1,2K or so) but they are not as bad as it sounds, and I've done sub-10 minute runs with 5 sorcerers in the group. It's a lot more about the skill of the players than the class honestly, at least outside SO (where you need insane AOE dps that only DKs can do currently).
So no, you are wrong when saying Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share. I disagree wholeheartedly and as a raid leader the only time I would put Sorcs on the bench is in SO where I would also only want as many DKs as possible because.. AOE. Good Sorcerers with the right gear do more Single Target DPS than most classes/builds.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
I am really excited about my Sorc in 1.6 even though I seem to be one of the few. Anyway, in my opinion, we need to see how things play out once this goes live.. because it will still take a lot of testing until we know for sure how everything compares to each other.
Also ele drain and siphon spirit can and should be placed by your healer in my opinion.
I am not wrong - the stats aren't lying when they say ~15% presence of Sorcs in Trials leaderboards and 2/3 of groups getting best times having no Sorcs at all.
You are making an assumption based on your own experiences, and I doubt you have a statistical analysis of those...
Sub 10 min runs in AA are also about avoiding adds or aoe'ing them down fast which Sorcs aren't bad at. They are also about having fast horses and being able to jump... nothing Sorc related there... Fastest runs I have ever done are around 11 mins and I was the only Sorc on my fastest runs because they didn't have enough NB...
Plus you freely admit you'd put Sorcs on the bench in Sanctum Ophidia - so there we are.. the harder it gets, the less Sorcs measure up.
With the significant increase in difficulty in all Dungeons on the PTS, once that goes live, Sorcs will also be less welcome in 4 man groups as well.
99.something% of the players in the game don't have Infallible+Master's - so your sample set for comparison or contribution to the debate here is entirely misleading.
Sorc's shouldn't need a weapon which uniquely adds to magicka dps more than any other, and a set whose best set bonus works without having to do the full heavy attack allegedly required to measure up. Both of these things play into a magicka build strengths in any case and could boost any class with that setup.
You are commenting from the point of view of unrepresentative selection bias.
In asking only the bleeding-edge best PvE players about the Sorc, Zenimax is also dipping into this too-shallow pool and getting the wrong point of view on the effectiveness of the class. Based on their approach so far, this is a problem, clearly...
The mathematically undeniable fact is, Sorc would not be in Trials at all if 1.6 had been live for a month in it's current state. For every improvement you claim should be made by players in how the play their Sorc, the exact same can be said of how they play other classes.
The difference is, the other classes start with a leg-up in power, and so there is no common benchmark for comparison.
I agree with your point on the healer doing the buffs by the way...Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on February 24, 2015 12:35PM3 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
that build drops to 6-7,5k DPs over fights lasting longer than the duration of your atronarch...
compare that to DK builds doing 15-16k+ in craft gear and you realize the problem...
bloody filtrer the *** are 4 letters for the male ***
Indeed!
0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »You've at least quadrupled the rate of degradation of gear in combat!!!
I can't think of a more transparently cynical way to 'encourage' players to spend coins in your shop for repair crates. As a player who no longer ranks among the 'no-lifers', may I offer you my heartfelt thanks for the need to sub to buy repair crates, just to keep my gear from falling to bits 'by design'. It took all of 20 minutes of aoe pulls in the Spellscar for me to have ZERO durability in all seven slots and be biting on a 2K repair bill.
Your gear will be at 0% durability in every slot after 20 minutes of spellscar aoe pulls in the current live version already. If this is your evidence, then I will take your claim that 'gear degradation has been quadrupled' with a grain of salt.
Maybe yours, but not mine - not even down 25% by then.
I guess it depends on the way in which you are aoe'ing the mobs, but doing it your way, you're going to be having to repair every 5 minutes on the PTS...Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on February 24, 2015 12:39PM0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »You've at least quadrupled the rate of degradation of gear in combat!!!
I can't think of a more transparently cynical way to 'encourage' players to spend coins in your shop for repair crates. As a player who no longer ranks among the 'no-lifers', may I offer you my heartfelt thanks for the need to sub to buy repair crates, just to keep my gear from falling to bits 'by design'. It took all of 20 minutes of aoe pulls in the Spellscar for me to have ZERO durability in all seven slots and be biting on a 2K repair bill.
Your gear will be at 0% durability in every slot after 20 minutes of spellscar aoe pulls in the current live version already. If this is your evidence, then I will take your claim that 'gear degradation has been quadrupled' with a grain of salt.
Maybe yours, but not mine - not even down 25% by then.
I guess it depends on the way in which you are aoe'ing the mobs, but doing it your way, you're going to be having to repair every 5 minutes on the PTS...
Not really, you don't need to repair at all.
Wich does not mean they didn't nerf the durability, will have to test that later.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »You've at least quadrupled the rate of degradation of gear in combat!!!
I can't think of a more transparently cynical way to 'encourage' players to spend coins in your shop for repair crates. As a player who no longer ranks among the 'no-lifers', may I offer you my heartfelt thanks for the need to sub to buy repair crates, just to keep my gear from falling to bits 'by design'. It took all of 20 minutes of aoe pulls in the Spellscar for me to have ZERO durability in all seven slots and be biting on a 2K repair bill.
Your gear will be at 0% durability in every slot after 20 minutes of spellscar aoe pulls in the current live version already. If this is your evidence, then I will take your claim that 'gear degradation has been quadrupled' with a grain of salt.
Maybe yours, but not mine - not even down 25% by then.
I guess it depends on the way in which you are aoe'ing the mobs, but doing it your way, you're going to be having to repair every 5 minutes on the PTS...
Not really, you don't need to repair at all.
Wich does not mean they didn't nerf the durability, will have to test that later.
Please do - and post here once you have.
I tested it three times, and I couldn't frankly beleive how bad it was.1 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
that build drops to 6-7,5k DPs over fights lasting longer than the duration of your atronarch...
compare that to DK builds doing 15-16k+ in craft gear and you realize the problem...
bloody filtrer the *** are 4 letters for the male ***
All builds will drop in DPS if you are a bad player and can't keep up the rotation, that just reinforces my previous point about player skill > class. My atronach wasn't even done when the fight ended, and even if you remove the 1800 DPS the atronach did. If we stopped considering that you will drop one every 50s that lasts for 20s. Well, how the f did you get down to 7,5k? That can only happen by performing badly with inadequate gear and using no ultimate.. really.
Edit: I'm not going to explain how Standard of Might works AGAIN. If you are challenged in understanding basics about DPS & Theorycrafting, go ahead and just complain. It seems to be working out great for you.byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
It's different characters for different times, I play whatever the group needs mostly.
I would say mostly the reason you see few Sorcs is because of the attitude that has been cemented in the community that "Sorcerers are bad DPS", I mean I have admittedly super optimal gear (infallible aether + spawn of mephala) but I can do 1,4K on my Sorcerer on Live. Sure, Sorcs without that combo have it a little more rough (1,2K or so) but they are not as bad as it sounds, and I've done sub-10 minute runs with 5 sorcerers in the group. It's a lot more about the skill of the players than the class honestly, at least outside SO (where you need insane AOE dps that only DKs can do currently).
So no, you are wrong when saying Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share. I disagree wholeheartedly and as a raid leader the only time I would put Sorcs on the bench is in SO where I would also only want as many DKs as possible because.. AOE. Good Sorcerers with the right gear do more Single Target DPS than most classes/builds.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
I am really excited about my Sorc in 1.6 even though I seem to be one of the few. Anyway, in my opinion, we need to see how things play out once this goes live.. because it will still take a lot of testing until we know for sure how everything compares to each other.
Also ele drain and siphon spirit can and should be placed by your healer in my opinion.
I am not wrong - the stats aren't lying when they say ~15% presence of Sorcs in Trials leaderboards and 2/3 of groups getting best times having no Sorcs at all.
You are making an assumption based on your own experiences, and I doubt you have a statistical analysis of those...
Sub 10 min runs in AA are also about avoiding adds or aoe'ing them down fast which Sorcs aren't bad at. They are also about having fast horses and being able to jump... nothing Sorc related there... Fastest runs I have ever done are around 11 mins and I was the only Sorc on my fastest runs because they didn't have enough NB...
Plus you freely admit you'd put Sorcs on the bench in Sanctum Ophidia - so there we are.. the harder it gets, the less Sorcs measure up.
With the significant increase in difficulty in all Dungeons on the PTS, once that goes live, Sorcs will also be less welcome in 4 man groups as well.
99.something% of the players in the game don't have Infallible+Master's - so your sample set for comparison or contribution to the debate here is entirely misleading.
Sorc's shouldn't need a weapon which uniquely adds to magicka dps more than any other, and a set whose best set bonus works without having to do the full heavy attack allegedly required to measure up. Both of these things play into a magicka build strengths in any case and could boost any class with that setup.
You are commenting from the point of view of unrepresentative selection bias.
In asking only the bleeding-edge best PvE players about the Sorc, Zenimax is also dipping into this too-shallow pool and getting the wrong point of view on the effectiveness of the class. Based on their approach so far, this is a problem, clearly...
The mathematically undeniable fact is, Sorc would not be in Trials at all if 1.6 had been live for a month in it's current state. For every improvement you claim should be made by players in how the play their Sorc, the exact same can be said of how they play other classes.
The difference is, the other classes start with a leg-up in power, and so there is no common benchmark for comparison.
I agree with your point on the healer doing the buffs by the way...
I agree, the community in this game is stupid and doesn't take Sorcerers. I only go by what people can actually perform. And some Sorcerers can perform at that level, so they get taken. I can only speak for myself though.
Sub-10 is without skipping adds or jumping. You only need that when you get down to sub-9.
Sorcs are not the only ones who get benched for SO, blame ZOS for only giving one class good AOE.
Anyway, you assume that Sorcerers don't get taken because they are bad and/or that they still won't be taken in 1.6 blabla.. it's all assumptions out of your own experience just as much as I assume based on my experience. We're talking about an unreleased update, of course it's all speculation.
I already see players who I have seen IG or under various circumstances who perform poorly (not due to gear or class issues) and who are now here saying that Sorcerers are bad. What does that tell you?
Maybe I'm biased because I'm tired of hearing Sorcerers complain and say that their class can only do 800 which isn't enough to be taken to SO? While we always have a minimum of 2 Sorcs with us every time we run SO and they have all proven they can do 1K+.
It's a problem when people complain about a class when the issue is themselves, not saying this is necessarily the case here, but it has been that way IG for months.
Edit: I'm aware Mephala + Infallible is not available to many which is why I said: with that set up Sorcs are close to the absolute best (DKs & Stam NBs) and without it they are pretty much on even terms with the rest of the pack (but it requires quite a bit of skill in weaving). Out of our 6-8 or so Sorcs that run SO regularly only 2 of us have the full sets.Edited by pppontus on February 24, 2015 12:58PM0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I manage 1K or a little more - and don't count myself as the best Sorc. around. I don't run macros for a start...
... and there are very small number of top PvE Sorcerers saying Sorcs are fine, what does that tell you?
A shame you aren't in EP - I'd trot along and guest in a dungeon run or two with you...Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on February 24, 2015 1:09PM1 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »I manage 1K or a little more - and don't count myself as the best Sorc. around. I don't run macros for a start...
... and there are very small number of top PvE Sorcerers saying Sorcs are fine, what does that tell you?
A shame you aren't in EP - I'd trot along and guest in a dungeon run or two with you...
Well, 1K dps and good performance is all we require for SO, so any Sorcs that manage that are welcome. We only take 2 at a time though because you need an excessive amount of DK fire damage to kill the Trolls fast (this is the really stupid reason only 6+ DK groups can achieve top of the leaderboard in SO, not necessarily ST dmg). Reroll DC maybe?
Anyway, I know, also there is a very small number of top PvE Sorcerers much of which comes from prejudice and all sorts of nasty things that this community does. I dunno if you remember but there was a time (long ago) when everything was exactly as is now and Sorcs were considered to be OP in trials
but that was only until more classes started reaching their potential. Look, I'm not trying to say that Sorcerers are perfect in 1.5, if it was even for the insanely boring "rotatioN" of two skills they needed changing.
What I am trying to say is: don't expect ZOS to make massive adjustments right now, because they really shouldn't. In my experiments on PTS Sorcerer looks very powerful (compared to anything but 2H wrecking blow which is a bit OP with all classes) and we will simply need much more time, testing and theorycrafting before we truly know what the classes potential is. And we need to get rid of all the stupid prejudices about what does well and doesn't do well.
Heck, if I'm not wrong Hodor has a Stamina Templar DPS ( @Alcast correct? ) in their top runs (world records) on live at the moment.. and how many guilds would frown upon that? How many would say that Stamina Templars are good DPS?
Simply put, don't just listen to the community saying that this class is bad/good because it's a lot more about the build and even more about the individual skill of the player that limits what DPS you can do.
Edit: In case it needed to be stated I also don't use macros for anything as I'd consider that to be cheating.Edited by pppontus on February 24, 2015 1:21PM1 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll
- And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.Edited by TehMagnus on February 24, 2015 2:47PM3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
It's different characters for different times, I play whatever the group needs mostly.
I would say mostly the reason you see few Sorcs is because of the attitude that has been cemented in the community that "Sorcerers are bad DPS", I mean I have admittedly super optimal gear (infallible aether + spawn of mephala) but I can do 1,4K on my Sorcerer on Live. Sure, Sorcs without that combo have it a little more rough (1,2K or so) but they are not as bad as it sounds, and I've done sub-10 minute runs with 5 sorcerers in the group. It's a lot more about the skill of the players than the class honestly, at least outside SO (where you need insane AOE dps that only DKs can do currently).
So no, you are wrong when saying Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share. I disagree wholeheartedly and as a raid leader the only time I would put Sorcs on the bench is in SO where I would also only want as many DKs as possible because.. AOE. Good Sorcerers with the right gear do more Single Target DPS than most classes/builds.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
I am really excited about my Sorc in 1.6 even though I seem to be one of the few. Anyway, in my opinion, we need to see how things play out once this goes live.. because it will still take a lot of testing until we know for sure how everything compares to each other.
Also ele drain and siphon spirit can and should be placed by your healer in my opinion.
I am not wrong - the stats aren't lying when they say ~15% presence of Sorcs in Trials leaderboards and 2/3 of groups getting best times having no Sorcs at all.
You are making an assumption based on your own experiences, and I doubt you have a statistical analysis of those...
Sub 10 min runs in AA are also about avoiding adds or aoe'ing them down fast which Sorcs aren't bad at. They are also about having fast horses and being able to jump... nothing Sorc related there... Fastest runs I have ever done are around 11 mins and I was the only Sorc on my fastest runs because they didn't have enough NB...
Plus you freely admit you'd put Sorcs on the bench in Sanctum Ophidia - so there we are.. the harder it gets, the less Sorcs measure up.
With the significant increase in difficulty in all Dungeons on the PTS, once that goes live, Sorcs will also be less welcome in 4 man groups as well.
99.something% of the players in the game don't have Infallible+Master's - so your sample set for comparison or contribution to the debate here is entirely misleading.
Sorc's shouldn't need a weapon which uniquely adds to magicka dps more than any other, and a set whose best set bonus works without having to do the full heavy attack allegedly required to measure up. Both of these things play into a magicka build strengths in any case and could boost any class with that setup.
You are commenting from the point of view of unrepresentative selection bias.
In asking only the bleeding-edge best PvE players about the Sorc, Zenimax is also dipping into this too-shallow pool and getting the wrong point of view on the effectiveness of the class. Based on their approach so far, this is a problem, clearly...
The mathematically undeniable fact is, Sorc would not be in Trials at all if 1.6 had been live for a month in it's current state. For every improvement you claim should be made by players in how the play their Sorc, the exact same can be said of how they play other classes.
The difference is, the other classes start with a leg-up in power, and so there is no common benchmark for comparison.
I agree with your point on the healer doing the buffs by the way...
Don't waste your time, this dude is a broken record. He gets his DPS from mostly using non sorcerer skills, top-end gear, and healers sustaining him with siphon spirit & elemental drain & healing him after he uses spell symmetry (instead of the sorcerer magicka recovery skill).Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.5 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll - And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Meh, I'll attribute that to ignorance towards Sorcerers with Mephala and Infallible Aether. Our best DPS pulled 1,4K on the entire Mantikora fight upstairs with that combo, I'm not that good but can at least do 1,4K on easier fights like the Serpent..
But yes, this kind of makes my point, a lot of these ideas are cemented in the community and it takes a lot to change peoples views about what is and isn't valuable.
Anyway, what also needs to be considered is that there will always be a FOTM and some guilds will choose to only take the best of the best. I personally wouldn't want to play that way, but we still manage with Sorcs and what not. In essence, to get a top 10 leaderboard time you don't really have to homogenize your entire class setup and still we see PUGs or guilds that aren't even close to that refusing to take Sorcerers. Do you think that them having good Sorcerers would really hinder them in any way, when their main issue is really that their DKs do 1K dps and they can't reliably do deathless runs..?
In my opinion, this is (in 1.5) a problem with the community more than a problem with class balance. DKs have 0 utility especially in 1.6, I'm fine with them being top DPS even, I am in it to have fun and as long as we can still take top 10 times with whatever setup we have .. I'm good with that.
TL;DR: People who reject based on class are mostly doing so because that's what they've been told, or they only care about being nr. 1 in which case they will reject as many templars, nbs and sorcs as they possibly can (in the current meta).Joy_Division wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
It's different characters for different times, I play whatever the group needs mostly.
I would say mostly the reason you see few Sorcs is because of the attitude that has been cemented in the community that "Sorcerers are bad DPS", I mean I have admittedly super optimal gear (infallible aether + spawn of mephala) but I can do 1,4K on my Sorcerer on Live. Sure, Sorcs without that combo have it a little more rough (1,2K or so) but they are not as bad as it sounds, and I've done sub-10 minute runs with 5 sorcerers in the group. It's a lot more about the skill of the players than the class honestly, at least outside SO (where you need insane AOE dps that only DKs can do currently).
So no, you are wrong when saying Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share. I disagree wholeheartedly and as a raid leader the only time I would put Sorcs on the bench is in SO where I would also only want as many DKs as possible because.. AOE. Good Sorcerers with the right gear do more Single Target DPS than most classes/builds.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
I am really excited about my Sorc in 1.6 even though I seem to be one of the few. Anyway, in my opinion, we need to see how things play out once this goes live.. because it will still take a lot of testing until we know for sure how everything compares to each other.
Also ele drain and siphon spirit can and should be placed by your healer in my opinion.
I am not wrong - the stats aren't lying when they say ~15% presence of Sorcs in Trials leaderboards and 2/3 of groups getting best times having no Sorcs at all.
You are making an assumption based on your own experiences, and I doubt you have a statistical analysis of those...
Sub 10 min runs in AA are also about avoiding adds or aoe'ing them down fast which Sorcs aren't bad at. They are also about having fast horses and being able to jump... nothing Sorc related there... Fastest runs I have ever done are around 11 mins and I was the only Sorc on my fastest runs because they didn't have enough NB...
Plus you freely admit you'd put Sorcs on the bench in Sanctum Ophidia - so there we are.. the harder it gets, the less Sorcs measure up.
With the significant increase in difficulty in all Dungeons on the PTS, once that goes live, Sorcs will also be less welcome in 4 man groups as well.
99.something% of the players in the game don't have Infallible+Master's - so your sample set for comparison or contribution to the debate here is entirely misleading.
Sorc's shouldn't need a weapon which uniquely adds to magicka dps more than any other, and a set whose best set bonus works without having to do the full heavy attack allegedly required to measure up. Both of these things play into a magicka build strengths in any case and could boost any class with that setup.
You are commenting from the point of view of unrepresentative selection bias.
In asking only the bleeding-edge best PvE players about the Sorc, Zenimax is also dipping into this too-shallow pool and getting the wrong point of view on the effectiveness of the class. Based on their approach so far, this is a problem, clearly...
The mathematically undeniable fact is, Sorc would not be in Trials at all if 1.6 had been live for a month in it's current state. For every improvement you claim should be made by players in how the play their Sorc, the exact same can be said of how they play other classes.
The difference is, the other classes start with a leg-up in power, and so there is no common benchmark for comparison.
I agree with your point on the healer doing the buffs by the way...
Don't waste your time, this dude is a broken record. He gets his DPS from mostly using non sorcerer skills, top-end gear, and healers sustaining him with siphon spirit & elemental drain & healing him after he uses spell symmetry (instead of the sorcerer magicka recovery skill).
Haha. In 1.5 I use like 3 skills for DPS which are 2 Sorc skills. In 1.6, 10/12 skill slots are dedicated to Sorc abilities. Sorry, but if you use Dark Exchange to restore magicka you should be expelled from all sorts of endgame content..Edited by pppontus on February 24, 2015 3:02PM2 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mephala's bugged, right? It still procs on medium attacks?Edited by Snit on February 24, 2015 3:11PMSnit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭So, here is what I am taking from @pppontus posts (and I say this with a sense of humor!):
- Sorcs take player skill to reach their potential
- Sorcs are often excluded from hard content due to widely held delusions about the class
- Sorcs can maximize their DPS with the best trial gear and a bugged Undaunted Set (or one that, at a minimum, works in a manner inconsistent with its tooltip)
So... L2P, everyone else is wrong, raid gear will improve your DPS, and bugged gear will help as well
Why do these points seem to apply more to sorcs than to other classes?
To be fair, your version of "L2P" is more a jumping-off point for useful information and tips, not the usual insult. And you are probably on to something with your second point, as "the wisdom of crowds" often reaches conclusions unsupported by the data. Those conclusions have a major impact, however.
Finally, I would also guess that your opinion is far closer to that of the devs than the opinion held by most sorc players. "If those players would just learn to play, they'd see we were right all along." It certainly fits with the response in a recent ESO Live, "[Regarding sorcerer complaints] ...Players always complain their class is underpowered." OK.
I really try my best to be constructive, but I get that I seem annoyed because .. honestly, I am. I really liked when Mephala came along and revived Sorcerers a bit, and when I figured out to combine it with Infallible it was like an "oh, wow" moment.. I love making stuff out of the classes others consider to be underdogs. I've since given this tip to many of my Sorcerer comrades and they have been blown away by the results too!
I get that getting Infallible isn't feasible for everyone, as not everyone can complete SO regularly.. I get that. Still, in 95% of groups getting 1,2K which is perfectly normal with good weaving and Mephala, isn't something to be sniffed at. I promise you in at least 80% of the groups who won't take Sorcerers, you have a lot of players who can't do 1,2K with their DKs or NBs.. lots of them. I've seen this a million times over.
And really, I don't think Mephala or Infallible is bugged even though the tooltip says what it says.. it's like this with all effects that proc off heavy attacks and if it wasn't intended both sets would be 100% useless for everyone.
I really do think that players tend to complain their classes are underpowered, and I get where a lot of the Sorc complaints come from.. they come from the community attitude! I don't blame people for that, I've heard my fair share of *** back when I only had a nightblade and nightblades were considered useless for trials etc. What I did? I just continued to improve my DPS all the time and tried explaining to people that nightblades were not useless.. then all of a sudden no one thought they were anymore. Same as when people originally thought sorcerers were OP in PVE
The community spreads all sorts of rumours, I try my best to explain (from my point of view) what the situation is really like. I really think as an avid endgame player with characters of all classes, that I can see at least more of it than the average player.. I get that I can't convince most players, but I'd be damned if I didn't try.
Edit: All classes require skill to play. I beat average DKs every single day on any of my characters.Edited by pppontus on February 24, 2015 3:16PM1 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll - And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.
Yeah a number of my old guild friends joined you (Mistyblood amongst them) who I'd been running the top trial group with and were just getting to boss 8 on in vet DSA (some time ago). That all fell through as did the guild for that matter, as Hodor took up more and more of their time. I applied too, hoping to follow them, to be turned down as all Sorcs applying at that time appeared to be, and despite my ex-guildies recommending me.
It certainly looks like Hodor hasn't recruited Sors for some time for Trials from what I can see.
You're THE top trial performing guild in EP, and naturally you want the best times, so isn't it axiomatic that your rejection of the class points to a problem you see with the class?
Of course it is!
Pppontus would have the rest of use beleive that you've have had it wrong all this time, and you are somehow getting the best times and tackling the hardest content despite 'handicapping'yourself for not taking Sorcs...
... and that the rest of us somehow can't get our *** together with our Sorcs whilst simultaneously getting better performance out of our other characters due to some optimsing 'blind spot' unique to our playing of this class alone.
I don't buy it.
Tell me I'm wrong? Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on February 24, 2015 3:25PM4 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭Great post OP, sadly ZoS doesn't care. They've shown that they don't care about the communities wishes anymore and are moving full steam ahead with terrible game design and changes (not all are, but some are). Lets just hope many of the bugs/bad game design that we've been reporting since launch and certainly since 1.6 hit PTS persist through Tamriel Unlimited's launch and maybe all the way through Console launch so it all blows up in their face.2 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll - And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.
Yeah a number of my old guild friends joined you (Cowie, Mistyblood) who I'd been running the top trial group with and were just getting to boss 8 on in vet DSA (some time ago). That all fell through as Hodor took up more and more of their time. I applied too, hoping to follow them, to be told no based on nothing more than I was a Sorc. Hodor hasn't recruite dthem foor some time for Trials from what I can see.
You're a top trial performing guild, and naturally you want the best times, so it's axiomatic that your rejection of the class points to a problem with the class... unless of course someone is going to successfully argue that you have had it wrong all this time and you aren't getting the best times...
Tell me I'm wrong?
I'll answer that with:
TL;DR: People who reject based on class are mostly doing so because that's what they've been told, or they only care about being nr. 1 in which case they will reject as many templars, nbs and sorcs as they possibly can (in the current meta).
If you truly care about being the absolute best, you should be aware that you will need to reroll at a moments notice as soon as something better comes along. Most of us don't care about it that much, and still place ourselves in the top 10s.0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll - And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.
Yeah a number of my old guild friends joined you (Cowie, Mistyblood) who I'd been running the top trial group with and were just getting to boss 8 on in vet DSA (some time ago). That all fell through as Hodor took up more and more of their time. I applied too, hoping to follow them, to be told no based on nothing more than I was a Sorc. Hodor hasn't recruite dthem foor some time for Trials from what I can see.
You're a top trial performing guild, and naturally you want the best times, so it's axiomatic that your rejection of the class points to a problem with the class... unless of course someone is going to successfully argue that you have had it wrong all this time and you aren't getting the best times...
Tell me I'm wrong?
I'll answer that with:
TL;DR: People who reject based on class are mostly doing so because that's what they've been told, or they only care about being nr. 1 in which case they will reject as many templars, nbs and sorcs as they possibly can (in the current meta).
If you truly care about being the absolute best, you should be aware that you will need to reroll at a moments notice as soon as something better comes along. Most of us don't care about it that much, and still place ourselves in the top 10s.
So your advice is;
The majority are wrong about Sorc effectiveness, despite the mathematical and literal evidence to the contrary (magicka costs, base damage, *** synergies, the need to use more out-of-class abilities than any other class to hold on to the bottom of the dps performance pyramid).
... and...
Re-roll if you don't like the consequences of the decisons made by the majority.
Interesting.
Or, rather than acting the vicitim, I could ask Zenimax to fix the class so with more effort and skill I can at least match the laughably easy to play and game dominating Dragon Knight, whether I PvP or PvE.
I understand your point of view, I really do, but I've played a lot of years in enough MMO's to recognise a weaksauce class when I see one, and to know when a bunch of Dev's are blowing smoke becasue they can't or won't recognise the problem... or simply don't know what to do about it...
... perhaps employ Gil.Galad as a consultant!?
Anyway, character optimsation should allow players to become strong in their chosen role in a group etc. It shouldn't be the only way to keep up with other classes who, despite being less-than-optimised, can still outperform them.
That's the case here, because after all, how well a class performs is a comparative, not an absolute metric.
Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on February 24, 2015 3:45PM3 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭At the end of the day pppontus, I have based my thread on my own experience, not that of others, and if I used some of those observations along the way to emphasise or illustrate my point, I didn't at any point replace my arguement with theirs.
We just happen to agree, and based on far more than heresay and mob-think.Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on February 24, 2015 3:48PM0 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll - And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.
Yeah a number of my old guild friends joined you (Cowie, Mistyblood) who I'd been running the top trial group with and were just getting to boss 8 on in vet DSA (some time ago). That all fell through as Hodor took up more and more of their time. I applied too, hoping to follow them, to be told no based on nothing more than I was a Sorc. Hodor hasn't recruite dthem foor some time for Trials from what I can see.
You're a top trial performing guild, and naturally you want the best times, so it's axiomatic that your rejection of the class points to a problem with the class... unless of course someone is going to successfully argue that you have had it wrong all this time and you aren't getting the best times...
Tell me I'm wrong?
I'll answer that with:
TL;DR: People who reject based on class are mostly doing so because that's what they've been told, or they only care about being nr. 1 in which case they will reject as many templars, nbs and sorcs as they possibly can (in the current meta).
If you truly care about being the absolute best, you should be aware that you will need to reroll at a moments notice as soon as something better comes along. Most of us don't care about it that much, and still place ourselves in the top 10s.
So your advice is;
The majority are wrong about Sorc effectiveness, despite the mathematical and literal evidence to the contrary (magicka costs, base damage, *** synergies, the need to use more out-of-class abilities than any other class to hold on to the bottom of the dps performance pyramid).
... and...
Re-roll if you don't liike the consequences of the decisons made by the majority.
Interesting.
Or, I could ask Zenimax fix the class so with more effort and skill I can match the laughably easy to play and game dominating Dragon Knight, whether I PvP or PvE.
I understand your point of view, I really do, but I've played a lot of years in enough MMO's to recognise a weaksauce class when I see one, and to know when a bunch of Dev's are blowing smoke becasue they can't or won't recognise the problem.
Character optimsation should alllow players to become strong in their chosen role in a group etc. It shouldn't be the only way to keep up with other classes who, despite being less-than-optimised, can still outstrip them.
That's the case here, because after all, how well a class performs is a comparative, not an absolute metric.
I get your point as well, honestly. I think we just look at it differently, I like competetive PVE and I do like to do speedruns.. but I wouldn't sacrifice my own enjoyment for it. I have a DK, I strictly tank with it because I find it boring to play. The whole fire everywhere thing just doesn't appeal to me. So in essence, I don't care enough about being the best.. and in my position, doing good DPS with what I enjoy is just more important.
I don't think the situation is good for Sorcerers in 1.5, I really don't. All the points I was trying to make was simply that it wasn't (numbers wise) as bad as it sounds. When I say 800 DPS isn't enough for SO, the response I get is "but I'm a sorcerer, I can't do more blabla". Then I can link my 1300 on Varlariel (Infallible) or 1200 (no Infallible) and say.. but yes, you can. Maybe you can do it easier with another class, I dunno..? I put equal effort in to all mine and it is what it is..
Anyway, in 1.6 the class is awesome. I use 10/12 sorc skills in ST. I even use a build dependant on potions just so I can fit MORE sorcerer skills on my bar.. for trials that is. So it has been changed a lot since 1.5.
Whatever way you choose to look at it.. if you want that #1 spot, you will always need to reroll to something. If ZOS continues to buff Sorcs, maybe Hodor will all reroll Sorcs in 1.6.8. Who knows..
Either way, I don't think the community or the leaderboards is what defines a class. My magicka NB was considered underpowered and Sorc was considered way overpowered in Trials when they were first released. Nothing changed as far as balance, people just figured out better and better combos.byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »At the end of the day pppontus, I have based my thread on my own experience, not that of others, and if I used some of those observations along the way to emphasise or illustrate my point, I didn't at any point replace my arguement with theirs.
We just happen to agree, and based on far more than heresay and mob-think.
That's alright with me. I'm not saying anyone's experience is inherently wrong, there is much more to it than that and I know that I only speak from my own point of view. I'd like to think I have good insights, having VR14s of all classes, and running a lot of Trials.. so I like giving my input. I'm however not saying that my view is necessarily or objectively correct.
I happen to like the state of my Sorc on the PTS a lot, I wouldn't want them to buff it more before seeing the true performance of classes in real content. I don't want a crap meta to just be replaced by another crap meta.. even though I know that's how these things always end.Edited by pppontus on February 24, 2015 3:55PM0
