However, despite just under 30K magicaka, over 980 regeneration, Breton spell cost reduction, over 6% magicka cost reduction from Champion points and all vet 14 gear with Magicka on everything, not to mention 32 points in Magicka... I spent at least half of my fights with less than 20% magicka, and heard that damn clicky-noise telling me I was out of juice almost constantly.
Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
that build drops to 6-7,5k DPs over fights lasting longer than the duration of your atronarch...
compare that to DK builds doing 16k+ and you realize the problem...
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »You've at least quadrupled the rate of degradation of gear in combat!!!
I can't think of a more transparently cynical way to 'encourage' players to spend coins in your shop for repair crates. As a player who no longer ranks among the 'no-lifers', may I offer you my heartfelt thanks for the need to sub to buy repair crates, just to keep my gear from falling to bits 'by design'. It took all of 20 minutes of aoe pulls in the Spellscar for me to have ZERO durability in all seven slots and be biting on a 2K repair bill.
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
It's different characters for different times, I play whatever the group needs mostly.
I would say mostly the reason you see few Sorcs is because of the attitude that has been cemented in the community that "Sorcerers are bad DPS", I mean I have admittedly super optimal gear (infallible aether + spawn of mephala) but I can do 1,4K on my Sorcerer on Live. Sure, Sorcs without that combo have it a little more rough (1,2K or so) but they are not as bad as it sounds, and I've done sub-10 minute runs with 5 sorcerers in the group. It's a lot more about the skill of the players than the class honestly, at least outside SO (where you need insane AOE dps that only DKs can do currently).
So no, you are wrong when saying Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share. I disagree wholeheartedly and as a raid leader the only time I would put Sorcs on the bench is in SO where I would also only want as many DKs as possible because.. AOE. Good Sorcerers with the right gear do more Single Target DPS than most classes/builds.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
I am really excited about my Sorc in 1.6 even though I seem to be one of the few. Anyway, in my opinion, we need to see how things play out once this goes live.. because it will still take a lot of testing until we know for sure how everything compares to each other.
Also ele drain and siphon spirit can and should be placed by your healer in my opinion.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
that build drops to 6-7,5k DPs over fights lasting longer than the duration of your atronarch...
compare that to DK builds doing 15-16k+ in craft gear and you realize the problem...
bloody filtrer the *** are 4 letters for the male ***
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »You've at least quadrupled the rate of degradation of gear in combat!!!
I can't think of a more transparently cynical way to 'encourage' players to spend coins in your shop for repair crates. As a player who no longer ranks among the 'no-lifers', may I offer you my heartfelt thanks for the need to sub to buy repair crates, just to keep my gear from falling to bits 'by design'. It took all of 20 minutes of aoe pulls in the Spellscar for me to have ZERO durability in all seven slots and be biting on a 2K repair bill.
Your gear will be at 0% durability in every slot after 20 minutes of spellscar aoe pulls in the current live version already. If this is your evidence, then I will take your claim that 'gear degradation has been quadrupled' with a grain of salt.
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »You've at least quadrupled the rate of degradation of gear in combat!!!
I can't think of a more transparently cynical way to 'encourage' players to spend coins in your shop for repair crates. As a player who no longer ranks among the 'no-lifers', may I offer you my heartfelt thanks for the need to sub to buy repair crates, just to keep my gear from falling to bits 'by design'. It took all of 20 minutes of aoe pulls in the Spellscar for me to have ZERO durability in all seven slots and be biting on a 2K repair bill.
Your gear will be at 0% durability in every slot after 20 minutes of spellscar aoe pulls in the current live version already. If this is your evidence, then I will take your claim that 'gear degradation has been quadrupled' with a grain of salt.
Maybe yours, but not mine - not even down 25% by then.
I guess it depends on the way in which you are aoe'ing the mobs, but doing it your way, you're going to be having to repair every 5 minutes on the PTS...
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »You've at least quadrupled the rate of degradation of gear in combat!!!
I can't think of a more transparently cynical way to 'encourage' players to spend coins in your shop for repair crates. As a player who no longer ranks among the 'no-lifers', may I offer you my heartfelt thanks for the need to sub to buy repair crates, just to keep my gear from falling to bits 'by design'. It took all of 20 minutes of aoe pulls in the Spellscar for me to have ZERO durability in all seven slots and be biting on a 2K repair bill.
Your gear will be at 0% durability in every slot after 20 minutes of spellscar aoe pulls in the current live version already. If this is your evidence, then I will take your claim that 'gear degradation has been quadrupled' with a grain of salt.
Maybe yours, but not mine - not even down 25% by then.
I guess it depends on the way in which you are aoe'ing the mobs, but doing it your way, you're going to be having to repair every 5 minutes on the PTS...
Not really, you don't need to repair at all.
Wich does not mean they didn't nerf the durability, will have to test that later.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
that build drops to 6-7,5k DPs over fights lasting longer than the duration of your atronarch...
compare that to DK builds doing 15-16k+ in craft gear and you realize the problem...
bloody filtrer the *** are 4 letters for the male ***
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
It's different characters for different times, I play whatever the group needs mostly.
I would say mostly the reason you see few Sorcs is because of the attitude that has been cemented in the community that "Sorcerers are bad DPS", I mean I have admittedly super optimal gear (infallible aether + spawn of mephala) but I can do 1,4K on my Sorcerer on Live. Sure, Sorcs without that combo have it a little more rough (1,2K or so) but they are not as bad as it sounds, and I've done sub-10 minute runs with 5 sorcerers in the group. It's a lot more about the skill of the players than the class honestly, at least outside SO (where you need insane AOE dps that only DKs can do currently).
So no, you are wrong when saying Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share. I disagree wholeheartedly and as a raid leader the only time I would put Sorcs on the bench is in SO where I would also only want as many DKs as possible because.. AOE. Good Sorcerers with the right gear do more Single Target DPS than most classes/builds.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
I am really excited about my Sorc in 1.6 even though I seem to be one of the few. Anyway, in my opinion, we need to see how things play out once this goes live.. because it will still take a lot of testing until we know for sure how everything compares to each other.
Also ele drain and siphon spirit can and should be placed by your healer in my opinion.
I am not wrong - the stats aren't lying when they say ~15% presence of Sorcs in Trials leaderboards and 2/3 of groups getting best times having no Sorcs at all.
You are making an assumption based on your own experiences, and I doubt you have a statistical analysis of those...
Sub 10 min runs in AA are also about avoiding adds or aoe'ing them down fast which Sorcs aren't bad at. They are also about having fast horses and being able to jump... nothing Sorc related there... Fastest runs I have ever done are around 11 mins and I was the only Sorc on my fastest runs because they didn't have enough NB...
Plus you freely admit you'd put Sorcs on the bench in Sanctum Ophidia - so there we are.. the harder it gets, the less Sorcs measure up.
With the significant increase in difficulty in all Dungeons on the PTS, once that goes live, Sorcs will also be less welcome in 4 man groups as well.
99.something% of the players in the game don't have Infallible+Master's - so your sample set for comparison or contribution to the debate here is entirely misleading.
Sorc's shouldn't need a weapon which uniquely adds to magicka dps more than any other, and a set whose best set bonus works without having to do the full heavy attack allegedly required to measure up. Both of these things play into a magicka build strengths in any case and could boost any class with that setup.
You are commenting from the point of view of unrepresentative selection bias.
In asking only the bleeding-edge best PvE players about the Sorc, Zenimax is also dipping into this too-shallow pool and getting the wrong point of view on the effectiveness of the class. Based on their approach so far, this is a problem, clearly...
The mathematically undeniable fact is, Sorc would not be in Trials at all if 1.6 had been live for a month in it's current state. For every improvement you claim should be made by players in how the play their Sorc, the exact same can be said of how they play other classes.
The difference is, the other classes start with a leg-up in power, and so there is no common benchmark for comparison.
I agree with your point on the healer doing the buffs by the way...
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »I manage 1K or a little more - and don't count myself as the best Sorc. around. I don't run macros for a start...
... and there are very small number of top PvE Sorcerers saying Sorcs are fine, what does that tell you?
A shame you aren't in EP - I'd trot along and guest in a dungeon run or two with you...
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
It's different characters for different times, I play whatever the group needs mostly.
I would say mostly the reason you see few Sorcs is because of the attitude that has been cemented in the community that "Sorcerers are bad DPS", I mean I have admittedly super optimal gear (infallible aether + spawn of mephala) but I can do 1,4K on my Sorcerer on Live. Sure, Sorcs without that combo have it a little more rough (1,2K or so) but they are not as bad as it sounds, and I've done sub-10 minute runs with 5 sorcerers in the group. It's a lot more about the skill of the players than the class honestly, at least outside SO (where you need insane AOE dps that only DKs can do currently).
So no, you are wrong when saying Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share. I disagree wholeheartedly and as a raid leader the only time I would put Sorcs on the bench is in SO where I would also only want as many DKs as possible because.. AOE. Good Sorcerers with the right gear do more Single Target DPS than most classes/builds.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
I am really excited about my Sorc in 1.6 even though I seem to be one of the few. Anyway, in my opinion, we need to see how things play out once this goes live.. because it will still take a lot of testing until we know for sure how everything compares to each other.
Also ele drain and siphon spirit can and should be placed by your healer in my opinion.
I am not wrong - the stats aren't lying when they say ~15% presence of Sorcs in Trials leaderboards and 2/3 of groups getting best times having no Sorcs at all.
You are making an assumption based on your own experiences, and I doubt you have a statistical analysis of those...
Sub 10 min runs in AA are also about avoiding adds or aoe'ing them down fast which Sorcs aren't bad at. They are also about having fast horses and being able to jump... nothing Sorc related there... Fastest runs I have ever done are around 11 mins and I was the only Sorc on my fastest runs because they didn't have enough NB...
Plus you freely admit you'd put Sorcs on the bench in Sanctum Ophidia - so there we are.. the harder it gets, the less Sorcs measure up.
With the significant increase in difficulty in all Dungeons on the PTS, once that goes live, Sorcs will also be less welcome in 4 man groups as well.
99.something% of the players in the game don't have Infallible+Master's - so your sample set for comparison or contribution to the debate here is entirely misleading.
Sorc's shouldn't need a weapon which uniquely adds to magicka dps more than any other, and a set whose best set bonus works without having to do the full heavy attack allegedly required to measure up. Both of these things play into a magicka build strengths in any case and could boost any class with that setup.
You are commenting from the point of view of unrepresentative selection bias.
In asking only the bleeding-edge best PvE players about the Sorc, Zenimax is also dipping into this too-shallow pool and getting the wrong point of view on the effectiveness of the class. Based on their approach so far, this is a problem, clearly...
The mathematically undeniable fact is, Sorc would not be in Trials at all if 1.6 had been live for a month in it's current state. For every improvement you claim should be made by players in how the play their Sorc, the exact same can be said of how they play other classes.
The difference is, the other classes start with a leg-up in power, and so there is no common benchmark for comparison.
I agree with your point on the healer doing the buffs by the way...
We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll- And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Joy_Division wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Magicka problem? Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit?
Impressive stats.
I wonder which characters acehived them though.
We both know Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share to your guild runs in those Trails etc.
We also both know that magicka is fine in 1.5.
It isn't close to fine iin 1.6.
Try the PTS for yourself and run a few dungeons with your Sorc (if they are magicka based ofc), bettter yet the Trials if you can get a group. You'll be gobsmacked...
It's different characters for different times, I play whatever the group needs mostly.
I would say mostly the reason you see few Sorcs is because of the attitude that has been cemented in the community that "Sorcerers are bad DPS", I mean I have admittedly super optimal gear (infallible aether + spawn of mephala) but I can do 1,4K on my Sorcerer on Live. Sure, Sorcs without that combo have it a little more rough (1,2K or so) but they are not as bad as it sounds, and I've done sub-10 minute runs with 5 sorcerers in the group. It's a lot more about the skill of the players than the class honestly, at least outside SO (where you need insane AOE dps that only DKs can do currently).
So no, you are wrong when saying Sorcs aren't contributing their fair share. I disagree wholeheartedly and as a raid leader the only time I would put Sorcs on the bench is in SO where I would also only want as many DKs as possible because.. AOE. Good Sorcerers with the right gear do more Single Target DPS than most classes/builds.
I've tried the PTS, I've also made a build which you can find at Tamriel Foundry.
I am really excited about my Sorc in 1.6 even though I seem to be one of the few. Anyway, in my opinion, we need to see how things play out once this goes live.. because it will still take a lot of testing until we know for sure how everything compares to each other.
Also ele drain and siphon spirit can and should be placed by your healer in my opinion.
I am not wrong - the stats aren't lying when they say ~15% presence of Sorcs in Trials leaderboards and 2/3 of groups getting best times having no Sorcs at all.
You are making an assumption based on your own experiences, and I doubt you have a statistical analysis of those...
Sub 10 min runs in AA are also about avoiding adds or aoe'ing them down fast which Sorcs aren't bad at. They are also about having fast horses and being able to jump... nothing Sorc related there... Fastest runs I have ever done are around 11 mins and I was the only Sorc on my fastest runs because they didn't have enough NB...
Plus you freely admit you'd put Sorcs on the bench in Sanctum Ophidia - so there we are.. the harder it gets, the less Sorcs measure up.
With the significant increase in difficulty in all Dungeons on the PTS, once that goes live, Sorcs will also be less welcome in 4 man groups as well.
99.something% of the players in the game don't have Infallible+Master's - so your sample set for comparison or contribution to the debate here is entirely misleading.
Sorc's shouldn't need a weapon which uniquely adds to magicka dps more than any other, and a set whose best set bonus works without having to do the full heavy attack allegedly required to measure up. Both of these things play into a magicka build strengths in any case and could boost any class with that setup.
You are commenting from the point of view of unrepresentative selection bias.
In asking only the bleeding-edge best PvE players about the Sorc, Zenimax is also dipping into this too-shallow pool and getting the wrong point of view on the effectiveness of the class. Based on their approach so far, this is a problem, clearly...
The mathematically undeniable fact is, Sorc would not be in Trials at all if 1.6 had been live for a month in it's current state. For every improvement you claim should be made by players in how the play their Sorc, the exact same can be said of how they play other classes.
The difference is, the other classes start with a leg-up in power, and so there is no common benchmark for comparison.
I agree with your point on the healer doing the buffs by the way...
Don't waste your time, this dude is a broken record. He gets his DPS from mostly using non sorcerer skills, top-end gear, and healers sustaining him with siphon spirit & elemental drain & healing him after he uses spell symmetry (instead of the sorcerer magicka recovery skill).
So, here is what I am taking from @pppontus posts (and I say this with a sense of humor!):
- Sorcs take player skill to reach their potential
- Sorcs are often excluded from hard content due to widely held delusions about the class
- Sorcs can maximize their DPS with the best trial gear and a bugged Undaunted Set (or one that, at a minimum, works in a manner inconsistent with its tooltip)
So... L2P, everyone else is wrong, raid gear will improve your DPS, and bugged gear will help as wellWhy do these points seem to apply more to sorcs than to other classes?
To be fair, your version of "L2P" is more a jumping-off point for useful information and tips, not the usual insult. And you are probably on to something with your second point, as "the wisdom of crowds" often reaches conclusions unsupported by the data. Those conclusions have a major impact, however.
Finally, I would also guess that your opinion is far closer to that of the devs than the opinion held by most sorc players. "If those players would just learn to play, they'd see we were right all along." It certainly fits with the response in a recent ESO Live, "[Regarding sorcerer complaints] ...Players always complain their class is underpowered." OK.
We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll- And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll- And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.
Yeah a number of my old guild friends joined you (Cowie, Mistyblood) who I'd been running the top trial group with and were just getting to boss 8 on in vet DSA (some time ago). That all fell through as Hodor took up more and more of their time. I applied too, hoping to follow them, to be told no based on nothing more than I was a Sorc. Hodor hasn't recruite dthem foor some time for Trials from what I can see.
You're a top trial performing guild, and naturally you want the best times, so it's axiomatic that your rejection of the class points to a problem with the class... unless of course someone is going to successfully argue that you have had it wrong all this time and you aren't getting the best times...
Tell me I'm wrong?
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll- And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.
Yeah a number of my old guild friends joined you (Cowie, Mistyblood) who I'd been running the top trial group with and were just getting to boss 8 on in vet DSA (some time ago). That all fell through as Hodor took up more and more of their time. I applied too, hoping to follow them, to be told no based on nothing more than I was a Sorc. Hodor hasn't recruite dthem foor some time for Trials from what I can see.
You're a top trial performing guild, and naturally you want the best times, so it's axiomatic that your rejection of the class points to a problem with the class... unless of course someone is going to successfully argue that you have had it wrong all this time and you aren't getting the best times...
Tell me I'm wrong?
I'll answer that with:
TL;DR: People who reject based on class are mostly doing so because that's what they've been told, or they only care about being nr. 1 in which case they will reject as many templars, nbs and sorcs as they possibly can (in the current meta).
If you truly care about being the absolute best, you should be aware that you will need to reroll at a moments notice as soon as something better comes along. Most of us don't care about it that much, and still place ourselves in the top 10s.
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »We have a stamina templar because he can pull more DPS than most random DKs we can find in the game, but we wouldn't take sorcs to do speed runs (and only reason we take @Alcast & his Templar is because he doesn't have a VR14 DK geared & ready to roll- And he pulls really nice DPS with his templar, we wouldn't take any other templar DPS except him ^^- ).
Edit: oh and in SO, he's healing.
Yeah a number of my old guild friends joined you (Cowie, Mistyblood) who I'd been running the top trial group with and were just getting to boss 8 on in vet DSA (some time ago). That all fell through as Hodor took up more and more of their time. I applied too, hoping to follow them, to be told no based on nothing more than I was a Sorc. Hodor hasn't recruite dthem foor some time for Trials from what I can see.
You're a top trial performing guild, and naturally you want the best times, so it's axiomatic that your rejection of the class points to a problem with the class... unless of course someone is going to successfully argue that you have had it wrong all this time and you aren't getting the best times...
Tell me I'm wrong?
I'll answer that with:
TL;DR: People who reject based on class are mostly doing so because that's what they've been told, or they only care about being nr. 1 in which case they will reject as many templars, nbs and sorcs as they possibly can (in the current meta).
If you truly care about being the absolute best, you should be aware that you will need to reroll at a moments notice as soon as something better comes along. Most of us don't care about it that much, and still place ourselves in the top 10s.
So your advice is;
The majority are wrong about Sorc effectiveness, despite the mathematical and literal evidence to the contrary (magicka costs, base damage, *** synergies, the need to use more out-of-class abilities than any other class to hold on to the bottom of the dps performance pyramid).
... and...
Re-roll if you don't liike the consequences of the decisons made by the majority.
Interesting.
Or, I could ask Zenimax fix the class so with more effort and skill I can match the laughably easy to play and game dominating Dragon Knight, whether I PvP or PvE.
I understand your point of view, I really do, but I've played a lot of years in enough MMO's to recognise a weaksauce class when I see one, and to know when a bunch of Dev's are blowing smoke becasue they can't or won't recognise the problem.
Character optimsation should alllow players to become strong in their chosen role in a group etc. It shouldn't be the only way to keep up with other classes who, despite being less-than-optimised, can still outstrip them.
That's the case here, because after all, how well a class performs is a comparative, not an absolute metric.
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »At the end of the day pppontus, I have based my thread on my own experience, not that of others, and if I used some of those observations along the way to emphasise or illustrate my point, I didn't at any point replace my arguement with theirs.
We just happen to agree, and based on far more than heresay and mob-think.