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On Abilities & Ultimate Generation - post 1.6.3
C0pp3rhead
✭✭✭✭
In 1.6.3, both Dragonknights (DK's) & Templars received changes to their passives that provide ultimate generation. NB's also have two class passives that generate Ultimate. Templars and Sorcerers both have passives that reduce Ultimate costs. As it stands, these passives are all comparably weak. In order to understand why, we must also investigate how players generate ultimate and why ZOS felt these changes were necessary. Finally, we need to ask, "What can be done?"
First, lets look at each class and see how easily they can generate Ultimate.
To put this in perspective:
DK's:
These figures reflect hypothetical times it will take each class to cast their ultimates, and these figures will vary depending on role. For example, a Templar tank or healer may be using very few DW abilities, while a DK tank will be using several EH abilities. Unfortunately for NB's and Sorcs, they can only make it so far without incorporating set gear (Ex: Bloodspawn) or weapon abilities (Ex: Cleave or Low Slash). The above figures are as fast as they can possibly cast ultimates if relying on only class abilities.
Why did ZOS change ulti generation?
3 reasons:
What has ZOS actually accomplished?
They have standardized ultimate generation, but generation is uneven between classes. If their intent was to standardize ultimate generation, they need to make some changes.
What can be done?
1. Get rid of class-specific passives affecting ultimate generation.
2. Replace these passives with something better.
If ZOS' goal is balanced and standard ultimate generation, I believe the above suggestions would go a long way. Other methods such as standardizing damage outputs, effects, and costs would only (1.) limit diversity of classes & builds, and (2.) anger everyone. I do not advocate the use of the Nerf Bat to weaken classes. However, when classes are brought into alignment relative to one another, pointless and OP advantages disappear.
I know many responses will follow the lines of "I like my ulti generation," or "They messed it up already, don't make it worse," and "Nerf Templars!!" But give my suggestions and explanations a chance. It wasn't balanced before, it's not balanced now. Something needs to change.
Edited by C0pp3rhead on February 18, 2015 8:08AM First, lets look at each class and see how easily they can generate Ultimate.
Let's look at each class individually and use the following assumptions.:
In general, most players will be generating 3 ultimate every seconds (3U/s) by performing light or heavy attacks. The ultimate generation buff lasts for 8s, so you will gain 24 ultimate per 8s or 24U/8s. This means that it will take 33.3s to generate 100 ultimate. As far as individual classes are concerned:
But wait! Sorcerers and Templars have passives that reduce Ultimate cost. How do we account for this?
Let's look at Sorc's first: their Power Stone passive reduces ultimate costs by 15%. In other words, an ultimate that would cost 200U (Storm Atronach) now costs 170U. If a DK wants to cast Magma Armor for 200U, s/he must wait 66.6s to accrue 200U.
The Sorc on the other hand need only accrue 170U, and only has to wait 56.6s.
And here we have it: 56.s is 15% less time than 66.6s. Hence, we can say that it requires Sorc's 15% less time to generate the same amount of ultimate as other classes. Hence, the class has a modified base ultimate generation of 3U/.85s or 3.53U/s, and we treat ultimate costs as unmodified. We must make an exception though, as each light attack used by Overload & morphs costs 22 ultimate, and this cost is not affected by Power Stone.
Similarly, the Templar's Restoring Spirit passive reduces ultimate costs by 4%. We can say that Temps have a modified base ultimate generation of 3U/.96s or 3.125U/S
*Whew*
That's alot to take in. To break up this wall of text, here's a picture:
If you don't get it, you need to watch more South Park.
Where were we? Ah Ulti generation from class skills. Here's how it breaks down:
Base generation: 3U/s
DK: 1U/8s + 1U/15s = 15U/120s + 8U/120s = 23U/120s = .192U/s
NB: 2U/6s + 12U/45s = 30U/90s + 24U/90s = 54U/90s = 6U/10s = .6U/s
Sorc: No additional Ulti Generation
Templar: 3U/6s = .5U/s
When you add together base generation and class-skill generation, we get:
DK: 3U/s + .192U/s = 3.192U/s
NB: 3U/s + .6U/s = 3.6U/s
Sorc: 3.53U/s
Temp: 3.125U/s + .5U/s = 3.625U/s
In general, most players will be generating 3 ultimate every seconds (3U/s) by performing light or heavy attacks. The ultimate generation buff lasts for 8s, so you will gain 24 ultimate per 8s or 24U/8s. This means that it will take 33.3s to generate 100 ultimate. As far as individual classes are concerned:
- DK's have only 1 way to generate extra ultimate: Mountain's Blessing, which gains 1U per use of an Earthen Heart (EH) ability. Let's suppose this DK is keeping up both Molten Weapons (8s) and Ash Cloud (15s). This results in a gain of 1U per 8s and 1U per 15s respectively (1U/8s & 1U/15s).
- NB's have 2 ways to generate extra ultimate: Transfer & Catalyst. Transfer has a 6s cooldown and grants 2U when dealing damage with a siphoning ability. Catalyst grants 12U upon drinking a potion (inherent 45s cooldown). If the NB is maximizing their ultimate gain by using a Siphoning ability every 6s and a potion every 45s, this results in 2U/6s and 12U/45s, respectively.
- Sorc's have no way to generate extra Ultimate.
- Temp's have 1 passive that generates extra ultimate: Prism, which has no cooldown and grants 3U upon activating a Dawn's Wrath ability. Most Temp's (both stamina and magicka DPS builds) will use Backlash every 6s, so let's assume ultimate generation of 3U/6s.
But wait! Sorcerers and Templars have passives that reduce Ultimate cost. How do we account for this?
Let's look at Sorc's first: their Power Stone passive reduces ultimate costs by 15%. In other words, an ultimate that would cost 200U (Storm Atronach) now costs 170U. If a DK wants to cast Magma Armor for 200U, s/he must wait 66.6s to accrue 200U.
The Sorc on the other hand need only accrue 170U, and only has to wait 56.6s.
And here we have it: 56.s is 15% less time than 66.6s. Hence, we can say that it requires Sorc's 15% less time to generate the same amount of ultimate as other classes. Hence, the class has a modified base ultimate generation of 3U/.85s or 3.53U/s, and we treat ultimate costs as unmodified. We must make an exception though, as each light attack used by Overload & morphs costs 22 ultimate, and this cost is not affected by Power Stone.
Similarly, the Templar's Restoring Spirit passive reduces ultimate costs by 4%. We can say that Temps have a modified base ultimate generation of 3U/.96s or 3.125U/S
*Whew*
That's alot to take in. To break up this wall of text, here's a picture:
If you don't get it, you need to watch more South Park.
Where were we? Ah Ulti generation from class skills. Here's how it breaks down:
Base generation: 3U/s
DK: 1U/8s + 1U/15s = 15U/120s + 8U/120s = 23U/120s = .192U/s
NB: 2U/6s + 12U/45s = 30U/90s + 24U/90s = 54U/90s = 6U/10s = .6U/s
Sorc: No additional Ulti Generation
Templar: 3U/6s = .5U/s
When you add together base generation and class-skill generation, we get:
DK: 3U/s + .192U/s = 3.192U/s
NB: 3U/s + .6U/s = 3.6U/s
Sorc: 3.53U/s
Temp: 3.125U/s + .5U/s = 3.625U/s
To put this in perspective:
DK's:
- Dragon Leap: 125U - 39.2s
- Magma armor: 200U - 62.7s
- DK Standard: 250U - 78.3s
- Death Stroke: 50U - 13.9s
- Soul Shred: 125U - 34.7s
- Consuming Darkness: 200U - 55.6s
- Overload: 75U - 21.2s, each light attack (unaffected by PS) costs 22U - 7.3s
- Summon Storm Atronach: 200U - 56.7s
- Negate Magic: 250U - 70.8s
- Radial Sweep: 75U - 20.7s
- Rite of Passage: 125U - 34.5s
- Nova: 250U - 69.0s
These figures reflect hypothetical times it will take each class to cast their ultimates, and these figures will vary depending on role. For example, a Templar tank or healer may be using very few DW abilities, while a DK tank will be using several EH abilities. Unfortunately for NB's and Sorcs, they can only make it so far without incorporating set gear (Ex: Bloodspawn) or weapon abilities (Ex: Cleave or Low Slash). The above figures are as fast as they can possibly cast ultimates if relying on only class abilities.
Why did ZOS change ulti generation?
3 reasons:
- Block-Casting - not solved
- Out-of-Combat Ulti Generation - solved.
- Ultimate Spamming - kindof solved
1. Block-Casting - ulti change doesn't solve this problem.
Until 1.6.2, ZOS thought that they could force encourage us to drop our shields and open up our defenses with a light or heavy attack every 8s or more. This, in their minds, will cut down on players who hold down the block button while spamming abilities. However, many players are very practiced at dropping their shields, light attacking, using an ability, and resuming block all in less than a second. It is possible due to animation cancelling. Doing that rotation once every few seconds while blocking and spamming abilities in between will not be difficult. With 1.6.2, blocking & dodge rolling now also allow you to generate ultimate.
2. Out-of-Combat Ulti Generation - ulti change solves this problem.
Ultimate gain now depends on a light/heavy attack every 8s. All abilities and item sets that generate ultimate require you to either hit a target or be hit by a target. Additionally, any passives that bestow ultimate upon casting an ability require that you are already gaining ultimate from weapon attacks. In other words, there must be an enemy around that you can attack in order to generate ultimate. If there is an enemy around, you are most likely in-combat.
3. Ultimate Spamming - ulti change kindof solves this problem.
Some ultimates were meant to be spammed. Take a look at the cost of NB Death Stroke, Sorc Overload, and Templar Radial Sweep. The kind of ultimate spam we're addressing here is Templars being able to build up a Nova inside 12s or Dragonknightss that can throw down successive DK Standards. By lowering the maximum rate at which players can build ultimate, they have cut down on the bad sort of ulit spam.
Until 1.6.2, ZOS thought that they could force encourage us to drop our shields and open up our defenses with a light or heavy attack every 8s or more. This, in their minds, will cut down on players who hold down the block button while spamming abilities. However, many players are very practiced at dropping their shields, light attacking, using an ability, and resuming block all in less than a second. It is possible due to animation cancelling. Doing that rotation once every few seconds while blocking and spamming abilities in between will not be difficult. With 1.6.2, blocking & dodge rolling now also allow you to generate ultimate.
2. Out-of-Combat Ulti Generation - ulti change solves this problem.
Ultimate gain now depends on a light/heavy attack every 8s. All abilities and item sets that generate ultimate require you to either hit a target or be hit by a target. Additionally, any passives that bestow ultimate upon casting an ability require that you are already gaining ultimate from weapon attacks. In other words, there must be an enemy around that you can attack in order to generate ultimate. If there is an enemy around, you are most likely in-combat.
3. Ultimate Spamming - ulti change kindof solves this problem.
Some ultimates were meant to be spammed. Take a look at the cost of NB Death Stroke, Sorc Overload, and Templar Radial Sweep. The kind of ultimate spam we're addressing here is Templars being able to build up a Nova inside 12s or Dragonknightss that can throw down successive DK Standards. By lowering the maximum rate at which players can build ultimate, they have cut down on the bad sort of ulit spam.
What has ZOS actually accomplished?
They have standardized ultimate generation, but generation is uneven between classes. If their intent was to standardize ultimate generation, they need to make some changes.
As we see from the figures above, different classes generate ultimate at different rates. DK's and Sorcs are in the worst positions. However, a DK can increase their ultimate generation by using more EH abilities. Many will be using less than the two abilities I used in the calculations above. The numbers for Sorcs, on the other hand, are the fastest they can cast their ultimates without gear and skills available to all classes. In striking contrast, Templars are ahead of the pack and can go significantly faster than presented above. Many players will also throw Sun Fire and Solar Flare into their rotations, switching to Radiant Destruction during the execute phase. Casting each of these abilities bestows 3 ultimate.
What can be done?
1. Get rid of class-specific passives affecting ultimate generation.
2. Replace these passives with something better.
The ultimate generation from the DK passive Mountain's Blessing is so miniscule as to be almost useless. Without it, Standard would take only 6s longer to cast. The EH skill line seems oriented towards defense. Perhaps a passive that increased armor or spell resistance depending on how many EH abilities are slotted. Another sensible passive could bestow cost reduction of EH abilities.
While Sorcerers value their 15% ultimate cost reduction, many would appreciate a boost in power much more. The changes to Expert Mage, while (nominally) boosting power, replaced a cost reduction to storm calling abilities. Many Sorcerer abilities are very expensive - replacing Power Stone with an equally powerful cost reduction passive would make many Sorcerers very happy. You might also consider a passive similar to the Templar's Burning Light - a chance on doing damage to proc extra damage for Dark Magic abilities.
NB's already have some of the cheapest ultimates in the game: Death Stroke and Soul Shred. Catalyst was the favorite of many NB's - perhaps you could change it to a passive that significantly reduces potion cooldown. Transfer could easily be reworked into a passive that increases the restorative & healing effects of Siphoning or NB abilities. It could even reduce the damage penalties of Siphoning Strikes.
Templars got a major damage boost in 1.6, and both passives involved with Ultimate are in the Dawn's Wrath tree. You could replace the Ultimate Cost with Health Cost for abilities like Equilibrium. Or you could simply forego a 3rd category and boost the stamina and magicka cost reduction. Prism helps us get our ultimate faster when we deal damage (all DW abilities, except for 1 morph of Eclipse, deal damage), which helps us deal more damage overall. Instead, I'm sure many Templars would be happy with a boost in spell power, similar to what we get in weapon power from the Aedric Spear tree. Alternatively, you could boost the damage of DW abilities and raise the maximum damage of Backlash.
These are only a few suggestions, and by no means a definitive list. Keep your minds open.
While Sorcerers value their 15% ultimate cost reduction, many would appreciate a boost in power much more. The changes to Expert Mage, while (nominally) boosting power, replaced a cost reduction to storm calling abilities. Many Sorcerer abilities are very expensive - replacing Power Stone with an equally powerful cost reduction passive would make many Sorcerers very happy. You might also consider a passive similar to the Templar's Burning Light - a chance on doing damage to proc extra damage for Dark Magic abilities.
NB's already have some of the cheapest ultimates in the game: Death Stroke and Soul Shred. Catalyst was the favorite of many NB's - perhaps you could change it to a passive that significantly reduces potion cooldown. Transfer could easily be reworked into a passive that increases the restorative & healing effects of Siphoning or NB abilities. It could even reduce the damage penalties of Siphoning Strikes.
Templars got a major damage boost in 1.6, and both passives involved with Ultimate are in the Dawn's Wrath tree. You could replace the Ultimate Cost with Health Cost for abilities like Equilibrium. Or you could simply forego a 3rd category and boost the stamina and magicka cost reduction. Prism helps us get our ultimate faster when we deal damage (all DW abilities, except for 1 morph of Eclipse, deal damage), which helps us deal more damage overall. Instead, I'm sure many Templars would be happy with a boost in spell power, similar to what we get in weapon power from the Aedric Spear tree. Alternatively, you could boost the damage of DW abilities and raise the maximum damage of Backlash.
These are only a few suggestions, and by no means a definitive list. Keep your minds open.
If ZOS' goal is balanced and standard ultimate generation, I believe the above suggestions would go a long way. Other methods such as standardizing damage outputs, effects, and costs would only (1.) limit diversity of classes & builds, and (2.) anger everyone. I do not advocate the use of the Nerf Bat to weaken classes. However, when classes are brought into alignment relative to one another, pointless and OP advantages disappear.
I know many responses will follow the lines of "I like my ulti generation," or "They messed it up already, don't make it worse," and "Nerf Templars!!" But give my suggestions and explanations a chance. It wasn't balanced before, it's not balanced now. Something needs to change.
"Things which are alike in nature grow to look alike, and the speaking stones have lain a long time lookin' at the sun. Some believe they descend with the lightning, but I believe they are on the ground and are projected downward by the bolt."
Fear my moustache powers.
Tastes-New-Blood - V14 Argonian Templar
Giblets N Bits - V2 Imperial Nightblade
Skruyue N'Alyutu - V1 Altmer Sorcerer
Jolbie Firecrotch - L31 Nord Dragonknight
Vehemence - - Valhalla's Guard
Fear my moustache powers.
Tastes-New-Blood - V14 Argonian Templar
Giblets N Bits - V2 Imperial Nightblade
Skruyue N'Alyutu - V1 Altmer Sorcerer
Jolbie Firecrotch - L31 Nord Dragonknight
Vehemence - - Valhalla's Guard
7
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Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭As it stands Ultimate Generation isn't balanced, never was balanced, and probably never will be balanced. Now, I skimmed through the math parts but I got the general gist of it, but that's besides the point. The brains at Zenimax want your Ultimate to be Ultimate, so building up a charge to then cast it is the typical way to do it, and I'm fine with it.
The problem I've always had with the way that Ultimate abilities work in ESO, is they aren't Ultimate, in any way, shape, or form. They're weak, mediocre, or downright trash garbage abilities.
First, they need to balance the way that every class generates Ultimate. Every class has access to at least three Ultimate abilities, so make each of these abilities cost a similar amount, 50, 100, 150, or 100, 150, 200, etc etc.
Second, make them WORTHWHILE. The only Ultimate spam that was ever bad for the game in both PvE and PvP, was the ability for a Dragonknight to drop 3-4 Standards in a row because of Talons, or Impulse, or Draw Essence, or all of the three combined, and Bloodspawn. Then there were the Sap Essence tanks that could drop 4-5 veils at once, and take virtually no damage.
I will never support the current change to Ultimate Generation because the Ultimate abilities simply aren't Ultimate.
Dawnbreaker? Relatively crappy, only good for the slotted bonus?
Meteor? Debatable, at least you can't reflect it anymore.
Death Stroke? Great for ganking and burst damage, that's about it.
Magma Armor? Well it costs less than Standard but makes you virtually invincible? #ZOS logic
I could go on and on and on, but I won't... Either way, rant over. I completely, 100%, fully, absolutely devotedly agree with you OP. Balance the Ultimate abilities, make them Ultimate, or scrap the entire blood system and let me slot a sixth skill.
Oh, and bump bump bump this thread until someone at Zeni sees it.Edited by Panda244 on February 18, 2015 5:59AMAldmeri Dominion For Life!
Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)
#FreeZazeer
#FreeGooey
#FreeAsgari
#FreeAoE
#FreeSubtomik
#FreeMBF
Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.3 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭fwiw i like the new ulti gen system and love shifting standard, dragon leap, corrosive armor, shooting star... looking forward to fighting zergs without constant batspam
the only thing i don't like about it is the effect on dual wield - i loved building ult on 1.5 with steel tornado and flying blade in range/aoe situations, but that's now gone and dw can only reliably build ult if you have an enemy right in front of you to melee... bow is now a much more versatile choice for AvA for stam builds to generate ult at rangeRetired until we break the Tank Meta0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nerf sorc, well why not, it seems to be ZOS' answer to everything these days.
PC EU
PvP only1 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭fwiw i like the new ulti gen system and love shifting standard, dragon leap, corrosive armor, shooting star... looking forward to fighting zergs without constant batspam
the only thing i don't like about it is the effect on dual wield - i loved building ult on 1.5 with steel tornado and flying blade in range/aoe situations, but that's now gone and dw can only reliably build ult if you have an enemy right in front of you to melee... bow is now a much more versatile choice for AvA for stam builds to generate ult at range
Aye, the spam of ultimates is gone, but the fact that ultimates aren't ultimate still bothers me with this system... If they want the abilities to be ultimate, can they just add a cooldown to them like any normal MMO?Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)
#FreeZazeer
#FreeGooey
#FreeAsgari
#FreeAoE
#FreeSubtomik
#FreeMBF
Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.0 -
C0pp3rhead✭✭✭✭the only thing i don't like about it is the effect on dual wield - i loved building ult on 1.5 with steel tornado and flying blade in range/aoe situations,
Right - I loved wandering into a pack of Welwas with nothing but Impulse, Blazing Shield, and Empowering Sweep. I was throwing down a 2nd Empowering Sweep ultimate before the damage reduction from the first expired.
As a crit stacking healer, I was able to get over 50% spellcrit. With crits coming from Rapid Regen & Healing springs, I could have Rite of Passage charged in under 10s. I could heal an entire 12-person raid through the Stone Atronach almost BY MYSELF. That's ridiculous, and that's what ZOS is trying to get rid of.
I will miss my outrageous ulti generation too, but I think toning it down is good for the game as a whole.
By toning down the rate at which we're able to use Ulti's, I think @Panda244 has a valid point. If I can't use my Standard or Nova but less than once a minute, I want people to be running in fear from it. On the live servers, I can stand in the middle of most ulti's and heal through them unless there's some focused DPS on me (or another ulti). I'm not sure I should be able to do that.Edited by C0pp3rhead on February 18, 2015 6:43AM"Things which are alike in nature grow to look alike, and the speaking stones have lain a long time lookin' at the sun. Some believe they descend with the lightning, but I believe they are on the ground and are projected downward by the bolt."
Fear my moustache powers.
Tastes-New-Blood - V14 Argonian Templar
Giblets N Bits - V2 Imperial Nightblade
Skruyue N'Alyutu - V1 Altmer Sorcerer
Jolbie Firecrotch - L31 Nord Dragonknight
Vehemence - - Valhalla's Guard2 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭C0pp3rhead wrote: »the only thing i don't like about it is the effect on dual wield - i loved building ult on 1.5 with steel tornado and flying blade in range/aoe situations,
Right - I loved wandering into a pack of Welwas with nothing but Impulse, Blazing Shield, and Empowering Sweep. I was throwing down a 2nd Empowering Sweep ultimate before the damage reduction from the first expired.
As a crit stacking healer, I was able to get over 50% spellcrit. With crits coming from Rapid Regen & Healing springs, I could have Rite of Passage charged in under 10s. I could heal an entire 12-person raid through the Stone Atronach almost BY MYSELF. That's ridiculous, and that's what ZOS is trying to get rid of.
I will miss my outrageous ulti generation too, but I think toning it down is good for the game as a whole.
By toning down the rate at which we're able to use Ulti's, I think @Panda244 has a valid point. If I can't use my Standard or Nova but less than once a minute, I want people to be running in fear from it. On the live servers, I can stand in the middle of most ulti's and heal through them unless there's some focused DPS on me (or another ulti). I'm not sure I should be able to do that.
Standard of Might is the only ultimate I walk out of in PvP, simply because of the heal debuff, not because of the damage. Negate doesn't effect me because I CC break it or have immovable up, and the rest do pitiful damage or I can bloody reflect them... Like I mentioned above, @ZOS_GinaBruno can we get some love from Eric here? Make Ultimates Ultimate or lemme spam magma shell forever!!!
Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)
#FreeZazeer
#FreeGooey
#FreeAsgari
#FreeAoE
#FreeSubtomik
#FreeMBF
Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.0 -
alkoriak✭✭✭In 1.6.2 you could generate ultimate by blocking,roll dodging, etc, see 1.6.2 notes, Is that changed in 1.6.3? I don"t see it in notes.0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would rather just have a 6th skill at this point. What is the point of having abilities on your bar that you can't be sure you will be able to use when you need them?
You can't build strategies around ultimates anymore, they take way too long to generate, so just get rid of them!#CAREBEARMASTERRACE2 -
C0pp3rhead✭✭✭✭You are right, @Alkoriak - you can now generate ulti by blocking & dodge rolling. There are times where it is sensible/necessary for a tank to block for long periods of time. I changed my OP to reflect this info.Edited by C0pp3rhead on February 18, 2015 7:10AM"Things which are alike in nature grow to look alike, and the speaking stones have lain a long time lookin' at the sun. Some believe they descend with the lightning, but I believe they are on the ground and are projected downward by the bolt."
Fear my moustache powers.
Tastes-New-Blood - V14 Argonian Templar
Giblets N Bits - V2 Imperial Nightblade
Skruyue N'Alyutu - V1 Altmer Sorcerer
Jolbie Firecrotch - L31 Nord Dragonknight
Vehemence - - Valhalla's Guard0 -
C0pp3rhead✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »I would rather just have a 6th skill at this point. What is the point of having abilities on your bar that you can't be sure you will be able to use when you need them?
You can't build strategies around ultimates anymore, they take way too long to generate, so just get rid of them!
I disagree, @Emma_Eunjung. Even in its current state, the only counter to an ultimate is still a Negate. When I am running in a dungeon, I save my Nova for the bosses. I time it to go down right as a group of adds are spawning, where a teammate can use the synergy.
Can we stack & burn in AA anymore? No. We shouldn't expect to have a negate flying in every 10s. That's not an ultimate. That's an ability. The more I think about it, the more I agree with @Panda244. Ultimates should be super powerful.
Buff Negate, Buff Standard, Buff Nova, Buff Veil. Make us want them."Things which are alike in nature grow to look alike, and the speaking stones have lain a long time lookin' at the sun. Some believe they descend with the lightning, but I believe they are on the ground and are projected downward by the bolt."
Fear my moustache powers.
Tastes-New-Blood - V14 Argonian Templar
Giblets N Bits - V2 Imperial Nightblade
Skruyue N'Alyutu - V1 Altmer Sorcerer
Jolbie Firecrotch - L31 Nord Dragonknight
Vehemence - - Valhalla's Guard1 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭C0pp3rhead wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »I would rather just have a 6th skill at this point. What is the point of having abilities on your bar that you can't be sure you will be able to use when you need them?
You can't build strategies around ultimates anymore, they take way too long to generate, so just get rid of them!
I disagree, @Emma_Eunjung. Even in its current state, the only counter to an ultimate is still a Negate. When I am running in a dungeon, I save my Nova for the bosses. I time it to go down right as a group of adds are spawning, where a teammate can use the synergy.
Can we stack & burn in AA anymore? No. We shouldn't expect to have a negate flying in every 10s. That's not an ultimate. That's an ability. The more I think about it, the more I agree with @Panda244. Ultimates should be super powerful.
Buff Negate, Buff Standard, Buff Nova, Buff Veil. Make us want them.
Buff them all and give them a global cooldown, not some way to charge them up, that way you know exactly when they'll be ready and can plan around it.Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
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C0pp3rhead✭✭✭✭Buff them all and give them a global cooldown, not some way to charge them up, that way you know exactly when they'll be ready and can plan around it.
This would make much more sense if what they're trying to do is standardize them. That way, they could simply put "Reduce Cooldown" effects on certain set gear to provide a buff to Ultimates."Things which are alike in nature grow to look alike, and the speaking stones have lain a long time lookin' at the sun. Some believe they descend with the lightning, but I believe they are on the ground and are projected downward by the bolt."
Fear my moustache powers.
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Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭C0pp3rhead wrote: »Buff them all and give them a global cooldown, not some way to charge them up, that way you know exactly when they'll be ready and can plan around it.
This would make much more sense if what they're trying to do is standardize them. That way, they could simply put "Reduce Cooldown" effects on certain set gear to provide a buff to Ultimates.
Ahh well... "sense" doesn't seem to be one of ZOS's strong suits, we can hope and we can ask, but in the end... We need someone at ZOS to read this post and agree, and get everyone at ZOS to agree...
Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)
#FreeZazeer
#FreeGooey
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Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.1 -
Gyudan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭C0pp3rhead wrote: »Overload: 75U - 21.2s
I would like to add that Overload is a toggle ability and its cost isn't meaningful.
As long as you have 75U, you can toggle Overload, which will have several effects:
- Switching to a third skill bar independant from the other 2. All toggled skills (pets, inner light) must be put on this one as well or they will vanish.
- All the player's weapons disappear and weapon abilities are no longer useable.
- The stats (weapon/spell dmg, etc.) brought by the weapons and the associated sets are still in place.
- Class and Guild/World skills can still be used
- The player can now use empowered versions of light and heavy attack. Each light attack costs 22U and has a global cooldown that prevents animation canceling.
If you want to consider the cost of that skill, you should consider the cost of light/heavy attacks and not the amount of ultimate required to activate the toggle.
The 22U cost of light attack isn't reduced by the sorcerer's 15% ultimate cost reduction passive or item sets like Blessing of the Potentates.Edited by Gyudan on February 18, 2015 7:59AMWololo.0 -
C0pp3rhead✭✭✭✭@Gyudan
Thanks for pointing that out. I'm aware of how overload works, but I did not know that the 22U cost per light atk was not reduced by the Power Stone passive. I have updated my original post to reflect this information."Things which are alike in nature grow to look alike, and the speaking stones have lain a long time lookin' at the sun. Some believe they descend with the lightning, but I believe they are on the ground and are projected downward by the bolt."
Fear my moustache powers.
Tastes-New-Blood - V14 Argonian Templar
Giblets N Bits - V2 Imperial Nightblade
Skruyue N'Alyutu - V1 Altmer Sorcerer
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Vehemence - - Valhalla's Guard0 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeC0pp3rhead wrote: »
Why did ZOS change ulti generation?
3 reasons:- Block-Casting - not solved
- Out-of-Combat Ulti Generation - solved.
- Ultimate Spamming - kindof solved
The main reason why ZOS changed the ultigen was because DKs were spamming Standards like normal skills. Finally that will be no more the Issue
And the last time I was on PTS you could not blockcast anymore?Edited by Alcast on February 18, 2015 9:40AMhttps://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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Kragorn✭✭✭✭✭Anyone who's played FFXI will know of the '2-hour ability' (now only 1-hour but that's beside the point) each class (job) had one and it's name came from the fact it was on a 2-hour CD.
Like Ultimates here, some were more powerful than others, and one or two were terrible, but they were 'ultimate' in that those that were good were very good and often were the difference between a group winning or losing a boss encounter.
That's the model I thought Ultimates were going to be when I started playing, I soomn learned they were nothing more than skills activated as fast as you could full them and at times that was at a ludicrously fast rate.
The mega-nerf to Negate is a classic example of a skill that actually was possibly a fight-winner but allowed to be used too frequently being nerfed to the point it's simply another skill, instead of being made less available.
Sadly, this seems to be entirely due to PVP, a prime example of the PVE side of the game simply being collateral damage, ZOS' entire focus is PVP and in that side of the game an 'ultimate' ability is far less important due to the on-going nature of the gameplay, rather than intermittent peaks of activity with bosses in a dungeon.1 -
Trayyacakes✭✭✭✭Anyone who's played FFXI will know of the '2-hour ability' (now only 1-hour but that's beside the point) each class (job) had one and it's name came from the fact it was on a 2-hour CD.
Like Ultimates here, some were more powerful than others, and one or two were terrible, but they were 'ultimate' in that those that were good were very good and often were the difference between a group winning or losing a boss encounter.
That's the model I thought Ultimates were going to be when I started playing, I soomn learned they were nothing more than skills activated as fast as you could full them and at times that was at a ludicrously fast rate.
The mega-nerf to Negate is a classic example of a skill that actually was possibly a fight-winner but allowed to be used too frequently being nerfed to the point it's simply another skill, instead of being made less available.
Sadly, this seems to be entirely due to PVP, a prime example of the PVE side of the game simply being collateral damage, ZOS' entire focus is PVP and in that side of the game an 'ultimate' ability is far less important due to the on-going nature of the gameplay, rather than intermittent peaks of activity with bosses in a dungeon.
You can't blame just PvP for this nerf. Negate made most PVE fight mechanics in the game irrelevant.Bjorn Uldnost1 -
C0pp3rhead✭✭✭✭@Kragorn @Trayyacakes
Why are these two sides at eachother's throats?
I hear PvP'ers say the same thing that Trayya has said here, that negate made many PvE mechanics irrelevant. I also hear many PvE'ers say that PvP is just a negate war, where the last negate wins.
I think the truth is that the Devs suffer a disconnect from the game as a whole. They listen to a select few people & guilds about what works and what doesn't. (According to some that I've spoken to, they listen only half-heartedly).
I PvP and PvE extensively. Am I a master at either? No. Am I competent at both? Yes. As far as Negate is concerned, I was very happy having it as a trump card for 2 reasons:
1. It did no damage.
2. It does not affect stamina builds.
Does it remove & prevent all other ultimates? Yes. Can it be countered with another negate or by a stamina user? Yes. It can counter and be countered. It deals no damage. It's one of the few things Sorcs have going for them."Things which are alike in nature grow to look alike, and the speaking stones have lain a long time lookin' at the sun. Some believe they descend with the lightning, but I believe they are on the ground and are projected downward by the bolt."
Fear my moustache powers.
Tastes-New-Blood - V14 Argonian Templar
Giblets N Bits - V2 Imperial Nightblade
Skruyue N'Alyutu - V1 Altmer Sorcerer
Jolbie Firecrotch - L31 Nord Dragonknight
Vehemence - - Valhalla's Guard2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭C0pp3rhead wrote: »@Kragorn @Trayyacakes
Why are these two sides at eachother's throats?
I hear PvP'ers say the same thing that Trayya has said here, that negate made many PvE mechanics irrelevant. I also hear many PvE'ers say that PvP is just a negate war, where the last negate wins.
I think the truth is that the Devs suffer a disconnect from the game as a whole. They listen to a select few people & guilds about what works and what doesn't. (According to some that I've spoken to, they listen only half-heartedly).
I PvP and PvE extensively. Am I a master at either? No. Am I competent at both? Yes. As far as Negate is concerned, I was very happy having it as a trump card for 2 reasons:
1. It did no damage.
2. It does not affect stamina builds.
Does it remove & prevent all other ultimates? Yes. Can it be countered with another negate or by a stamina user? Yes. It can counter and be countered. It deals no damage. It's one of the few things Sorcs have going for them.
I think they could somewhat compensate for the Negate change by making the stun apply in PvP as well.1 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭As it currently stands the reasons they nerfed ultimate generation and the ultimate skills themselves don't work, sure a Dragonknight can drop 4-5 Standard consecutively, and a Nightblade can do the same with Veil of Blades. Does that call for an entire system nerf? No... In my opinion it doesn't, it was an easy solution to a much more difficult problem. Ultimates aren't Ultimate, fact.
But they nerfed everyone because two classes could spam Ultimates, Templars and Sorcerers couldn't really spam their ultimates unless they had a build for it, and then they couldn't do much else. Actually, I have yet to see a Templar or Sorceror pre-1.6 spam an Ultimate as fast as a DK or NB, the "fix" as they like to call it was basically a handicap, if they want to fix Ultimates then please, just make them skills with 60-120 minute cooldowns, this new system is just a weird way to implement cooldowns, and the cooldown rate isn't generalized, it could be 10 seconds off because of the buff. So you can't plan anything around it. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!
Rant over, I need a beer.
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AssaultLemming✭✭✭✭Now that they have standardised ultimate generation they really need to standardise ultimate cost and ultimate power. Give everyone a cheap/medium/expensive ultimate with corresponding power.
Personally I dislike the change because I have two characters built around spell crit designed to generate ultimate quickly to be effective in dungeons and trials. Now ultimate generates so slowly that I mostly forget those abilities exist because they are hardly ever up when I need them.
Also the ultimate generation buff should trigger from any ability that damages or effects an enemy, not only from attacks.2 -
xaade✭✭✭"We want diversity"
Crafting builds so that they focus on building ultimate was an option. And now it's not.
The problem is that creating a build to generate ultimate, also created the most powerful crit based dps. So, no real sacrifices were made when you chose to focus on ultimates.
So instead of making ultimate a focus cause you to take a penalty somewhere, and thus be balanced, they just removed any benefit of targeting ultimates at all. Thus also balanced.
The problem with that, is that it isn't fun.
People want diversity. Because opportunity cost is fun. The problem is that people aren't mature enough to accept the cost part. And thus "balance" means everything looking alike.
So instead of catering to diversity, they took the easy "common denominator" approach and made every path to ultimates suck equally.
Socialism for you folks.
Ironically, MMOs are just hyper fast "path to socialism" simulators.4 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭"We want diversity"
Crafting builds so that they focus on building ultimate was an option. And now it's not.
The problem is that creating a build to generate ultimate, also created the most powerful crit based dps. So, no real sacrifices were made when you chose to focus on ultimates.
So instead of making ultimate a focus cause you to take a penalty somewhere, and thus be balanced, they just removed any benefit of targeting ultimates at all. Thus also balanced.
The problem with that, is that it isn't fun.
People want diversity. Because opportunity cost is fun. The problem is that people aren't mature enough to accept the cost part. And thus "balance" means everything looking alike.
So instead of catering to diversity, they took the easy "common denominator" approach and made every path to ultimates suck equally.
Socialism for you folks.
Ironically, MMOs are just hyper fast "path to socialism" simulators.
I'd hug you IRL if I met you, this post should get you some
And a nice Altmer babe to cater your every need. Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)
#FreeZazeer
#FreeGooey
#FreeAsgari
#FreeAoE
#FreeSubtomik
#FreeMBF
Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.0 -
Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭Why don't they go the all the way and make ultimates a skill with no cost but with a cooldown, eh.1 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Simple reason why its not on cooldown, its because you would be able to gain it back outside of combat, which is something they dont want.0 -
Mantic0r3✭✭✭only read opening thread so im sorry if someone stated this but
mountain blessing gives 3 ultimate/6sec same as templer (with 2 points in it)
@topic i agree, replace all those extra ulti passives with something else , and increase effectiveness of ultis.Edited by Mantic0r3 on February 19, 2015 12:14PM0