This new damage stack/spam meta will be the death of PvP

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO · February 2015

Dmg shields should work the same way "Guard" works in Dragon Age Inquisition. Dmg shields should have a cap, for example 25% of your maximun health and doesn't matter how many shields you stack, you shouldn't be able to exceed this cap.

And maybe ZOS can add some ways to increase a bit this cap with CP or passive skills (Pls not more than 30-35%).

Derra · February 2015

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dmg shields should work the same way "Guard" works in Dragon Age Inquisition. Dmg shields should have a cap, for example 25% of your maximun health and doesn't matter how many shields you stack, you shouldn't be able to exceed this cap.

And maybe ZOS can add some ways to increase a bit this cap with CP or passive skills (Pls not more than 30-35%).

Yeah. Might aswell patch them right out of the game.

This will result in even more stealth and gank gameplay. Why don´t they patch stealth out of the game. Then we can talk dmg shields.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dmg shields should work the same way "Guard" works in Dragon Age Inquisition. Dmg shields should have a cap, for example 25% of your maximun health and doesn't matter how many shields you stack, you shouldn't be able to exceed this cap.

And maybe ZOS can add some ways to increase a bit this cap with CP or passive skills (Pls not more than 30-35%).

Yeah. Might aswell patch them right out of the game.

This will result in even more stealth and gank gameplay. Why don´t they patch stealth out of the game. Then we can talk dmg shields.

I don't like stealth gank, so they can nerf this sh*t too if it's a problem/excuse for the shield spammers.

DDuke · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't give a crap about healing wards or self heals. I'm not a healer, and I'm certainly not a shield spammer.

Restoration staff is going to scale with spell damage anyhow, so there's that travesty of "stamina builds" gone.

All I want to do is burst people down, and I don't want to equip a 2H Weapon on either slot to do that, or spend hundreds of potions each day in order to kill one person and then run away.

And no, potion regen buff alone doesn't keep you alive when doing 1vX.

I think the bold part makes it pretty clear what you want to do in this game. You don´t want fights you want to farm scrubs by putting a knife in their back. I´m sorry shields make that a little harder for you

Taken out of context (from another thread, even).

What I wanted to imply there, is that I want access to maximum burst damage without having to slot 2H, since that's what rogue type characters do. Dual Wield->Burst, CC & Stealth. Apparently, I'd have to slot a big 2-handed weapon in another bar and use it for Momentum solely in order to do that stealth burst. Makes sense, not.

Anyhow, enough off-topic

Nowhere do I imply I want to "one shot" people. Stealth should grant an advantage, but not decide fights by itself.

I'd prefer if fights in this game were longer than 0,1 seconds ("one shots"), and shorter than 30+ mins (shield stackers).

Derra · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't give a crap about healing wards or self heals. I'm not a healer, and I'm certainly not a shield spammer.

Restoration staff is going to scale with spell damage anyhow, so there's that travesty of "stamina builds" gone.

All I want to do is burst people down, and I don't want to equip a 2H Weapon on either slot to do that, or spend hundreds of potions each day in order to kill one person and then run away.

And no, potion regen buff alone doesn't keep you alive when doing 1vX.

I think the bold part makes it pretty clear what you want to do in this game. You don´t want fights you want to farm scrubs by putting a knife in their back. I´m sorry shields make that a little harder for you

Taken out of context (from another thread, even).

What I wanted to imply there, is that I want access to maximum burst damage without having to slot 2H, since that's what rogue type characters do. Dual Wield->Burst, CC & Stealth. Apparently, I'd have to slot a big 2-handed weapon in another bar and use it for Momentum solely in order to do that stealth burst. Makes sense, not.

Anyhow, enough off-topic

Nowhere do I imply I want to "one shot" people. Stealth should grant an advantage, but not decide fights by itself.

I'd prefer if fights in this game were longer than 0,1 seconds ("one shots"), and shorter than 30+ mins (shield stackers).

The problem remains sadly. With esos open character system and the resource rather than cooldown based combat mechanic there is no way you´re going to balance heals/shields.
They are either going to be perceived op in smallscale or 1v1 situations and balanced in group combat (as it is now) or they are balanced for small scale but will offer no benefit at all in groups.

This would most likely lead to a meta where you have people going for maxium hp/mitigation + heal and you would still not be able to kill them (i´ve made i nice build for that one). Or people running stealth gank builds.
I know you don´t like heals also. But when you get rid of heals and dmg shields you´re basically saying screw the whole open class system for eso.
Being able to have access to multiple roles on one char specc is a core of eso´s design philosophy.

Derra · February 2015

...
double post

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO · February 2015

I can't understand how some people can be happy with this system. Immovable+Dmg Shield spam is even more effective than casting+blocking and it's destroying PvP since time ago.

Why I would have to care about use an important feature like blocking if I am immune to CCs 100% of time and I have 11512412532k of health?. Sorry but it's a stupid and broken mechanic and still we have to see people defending this sh*t.

DDuke · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't give a crap about healing wards or self heals. I'm not a healer, and I'm certainly not a shield spammer.

Restoration staff is going to scale with spell damage anyhow, so there's that travesty of "stamina builds" gone.

All I want to do is burst people down, and I don't want to equip a 2H Weapon on either slot to do that, or spend hundreds of potions each day in order to kill one person and then run away.

And no, potion regen buff alone doesn't keep you alive when doing 1vX.

I think the bold part makes it pretty clear what you want to do in this game. You don´t want fights you want to farm scrubs by putting a knife in their back. I´m sorry shields make that a little harder for you

Taken out of context (from another thread, even).

What I wanted to imply there, is that I want access to maximum burst damage without having to slot 2H, since that's what rogue type characters do. Dual Wield->Burst, CC & Stealth. Apparently, I'd have to slot a big 2-handed weapon in another bar and use it for Momentum solely in order to do that stealth burst. Makes sense, not.

Anyhow, enough off-topic

Nowhere do I imply I want to "one shot" people. Stealth should grant an advantage, but not decide fights by itself.

I'd prefer if fights in this game were longer than 0,1 seconds ("one shots"), and shorter than 30+ mins (shield stackers).

The problem remains sadly. With esos open character system and the resource rather than cooldown based combat mechanic there is no way you´re going to balance heals/shields.
They are either going to be perceived op in smallscale or 1v1 situations and balanced in group combat (as it is now) or they are balanced for small scale but will offer no benefit at all in groups.

This would most likely lead to a meta where you have people going for maxium hp/mitigation + heal and you would still not be able to kill them (i´ve made i nice build for that one). Or people running stealth gank builds.
I know you don´t like heals also. But when you get rid of heals and dmg shields you´re basically saying screw the whole open class system for eso.
Being able to have access to multiple roles on one char specc is a core of eso´s design philosophy.

Well, it doesn't have to be that way, when there are other alternatives.

Shield could be balanced for 1v1 & small grp, and more defensive skills made specifically for large group combat.
I talked to you about them the other day, for example if you get focused by many people:

"Ice Block - *High Magicka Cost* - Freeze yourself and become immune to damage for 5 seconds, halts your magicka generation"

"Illusion - Creates 2 copies of your character in random locations around you"

"Debilitating Aura - Inflicts Major Maim (-30% damage) on enemies within 10m (PvE bosses would be immune to it). Reduces your healing & damage shield effectiveness by 75%."

etc, these are just some of my own ideas, I'm sure actual game developer would come up with a lot better stuff

It doesn't have to be damage shields or heals every time for every player.

Cloak used to work fine for mitigating damage (even in bigger fights), until they broke it in 1.4.

This dmg shield/heal for everyone meta is actually dumbing down the game.
They are unable or unwilling to come up with multiple complex & interesting survival mechanics, so they come up with a "one for everyone" solution to reduce development costs/time at the cost of game quality.

Derra · February 2015

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

I can't understand how some people can be happy with this system. Immovable+Dmg Shield spam is even more effective than casting+blocking and it's destroying PvP since time ago.

Why I would have to care about use an important feature like blocking if I am immune to CCs 100% of time and I have 11512412532k of health?. Sorry but it's a stupid and broken mechanic and still we have to see people defending this sh*t.

Immovable is just a stupid implementation of a skill alltogether. Complete CC immunity is broken and can not be balanced.
Even tied to 5p of heavy would still be too strong in my opinion.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO · February 2015

What do you think about immovable get a nerf like reflective scales has gotten?

This ability will now protect you for a maximum of two CCs. If you get Unstoppable morph you will resist 3 CCs (wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor).

DDuke · February 2015

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

What do you think about immovable get a nerf like reflective scales have gotten?

This ability will now protect you for a maximum of two CCs. If you get Unstoppable morph you will resist 3 CCs (wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor).

I like that idea, a lot

Tagging some people so they see this:
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Derra · February 2015

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

What do you think about immovable get a nerf like reflective scales has gotten?

This ability will now protect you for a maximum of two CCs. If you get Unstoppable morph you will resist 3 CCs (wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor).

Great idea there. Like that one a lot.

tnliverpool · February 2015

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

What do you think about immovable get a nerf like reflective scales has gotten?

This ability will now protect you for a maximum of two CCs. If you get Unstoppable morph you will resist 3 CCs (wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor).

Pretty good idea. Although I would have no problem with completely removing the CC immunity skill and making the CC immunity from being CC'd last longer. 10 seconds or so.

cschwingeb14_ESO · February 2015

There is nothing to prevent a heavy armor user from stacking a ton of magicka/stamina and doing the same damage per attack that light/med armor wearers do. The issue is resources to make those attacks.

High mitigation has great synergy with heals and/or high health. Blocking and high armor both are high mitigation.

Damage shields have *no* synergy with high mitigation.

While damage shields (like many attacks) aren't balanced for the new stat caps, having them in the game is good for diversity.

Likewise, I think when skills are more balanced and people level up champ points, we will see 5 heavy/seducer plus champ cost redux and high magicka become a viable DPs/tank hybrid for pvp

As far as a counter to damage shields... The game has no mechanic to support it, and shields are supposed to be a counter to heal debuffs. I think their value just needs to be set properly (and quite possibly the nevropotence set needs to change. 30k magicka is just too easy with that set)

High magicka damage+high shield mitigation via magicka? That is directly countered by magicka harness...even for stam builds.

Xsorus · February 2015

No one has any right to whine about Stealth Ganks in ESO, Radiant Mage Light completely negates stealth ganks.

Feidam · February 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

No one has any right to whine about Stealth Ganks in ESO, Radiant Mage Light completely negates stealth ganks.

I tested it and it does help. however, that does not preclude the possibility that stealth attacks are too powerful right now.

Snit · February 2015

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dmg shields should have a cap, for example 25% of your maximun health

If you make Shields a function of another survivability stat (e.g., health, armor or resistance), you get the following results:

- Squishies (Light Armor wearers) become incredibly squishy
- Tanks become much tankier

You'd solve one perceived problem, but you'd create two others. You may think having defenses scale with the same stat as offense is bad. Having active defenses scale off the same stats as passive ones, though, is worse.

If magicka-based classes are going to rely on active defenses, those active defenses have to be quite good.

Snit · February 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

No one has any right to whine about Stealth Ganks in ESO, Radiant Mage Light completely negates stealth ganks.

I wish we had dual-spec, as Inner Light (the other morph) is very important to DPS builds. Making Radiant Light so good has an ironic drawback, in that it now forces you to decide whether PvP or PvE is your endgame

Snit · February 2015

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

As far as a counter to damage shields... The game has no mechanic to support it, and shields are supposed to be a counter to heal debuffs. I think their value just needs to be set properly (and quite possibly the nevropotence set needs to change. 30k magicka is just too easy with that set)

Good point. Part of the difference in opinion regarding Damage Shields relates to who you have fought in Cyrodil. If you're consistently seeing perfectly geared, well played characters built around optimizing shields, they may seem a bit much. Perhaps some itemization adjustments or stacking mechanics would be appropriate, to cap the upper end of shield mitigation.

While doing so, there's no need to cripple the bulk of the player base, which is not quite as optimized.

LunaRae · February 2015

Shields should be just an HP buffer, not prevent abilities like siphon strikes or weapon enchants altogether. Shields are just overly powerful right now and need major tweaking.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dmg shields should have a cap, for example 25% of your maximun health

If you make Shields a function of another survivability stat (e.g., health, armor or resistance), you get the following results:

- Squishies (Light Armor wearers) become incredibly squishy
- Tanks become much tankier

You'd solve one perceived problem, but you'd create two others. You may think having defenses scale with the same stat as offense is bad. Having active defenses scale off the same stats as passive ones, though, is worse.

If magicka-based classes are going to rely on active defenses, those active defenses have to be quite good.

ZOS can add dms shield bonus to light armor, for example increase the cap to 35%. What I can't understand is light armor continue being the best offensive and defensive choice.

Xsorus · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

No one has any right to whine about Stealth Ganks in ESO, Radiant Mage Light completely negates stealth ganks.

I wish we had dual-spec, as Inner Light (the other morph) is very important to DPS builds. Making Radiant Light so good has an ironic drawback, in that it now forces you to decide whether PvP or PvE is your endgame

The only difference between the two is one gives you 5% more magicka, and the other reduces your Magicka by 5%

Both offer the same crit value.

Septimus_Magna · February 2015

@Cody‌
There are a few problems when it comes to damage shields. They were designed to give LA users more survivability in exchange for magicka. But every class skill needed magicka so most people choose LA, mostly for the magicka cost reduction and spell crit. Up to 1.5 the migration of LA was too high so it made little sense to wear full HA in pvp.

In 1.6 the migration of LA has been reduced to 1/4 of HA. This forces LA users to stack damage shields to survive. It makes no sense to put points into health because the mitigation is so low you dont want to get hit directly on your health. With the increased cost of blocking LA will be too squishy imo, especially for the OP two-handed MA gankers who have 3x the damage migration of LA. And now the damage shields have been decreased 15% in cyrodiil and you can crit on shields because gankers couldnt one-shot a guy on his guar, really ZOS?

For light armor users in cyrodill:
-15% damage shield reduction
-Critting on shields (with 40% crit is 20% smaller shield)
-Increased cost for blocking (unable to reduce damage for long, break free and dodge roll)
-Extremely low mitigation, MA has 3x and HA has 4x the mitigation

If LA stays this way I think a big group of players is going to wear full MA or 5 HA + 2 LA and compensate the LA passives with champion points.

Cogo · February 2015

Have you guys heard of timing and player skill?
Non of these damage shields lasts forever. Either you do damage enough to break them OR you wait for them to run out.

Seams people here think all buffs are forever.

They talked about this in the Live show. Go watch it. They answered mr dduke question.

Cogo · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

What do you think about immovable get a nerf like reflective scales have gotten?

This ability will now protect you for a maximum of two CCs. If you get Unstoppable morph you will resist 3 CCs (wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor).

I like that idea, a lot

Tagging some people so they see this:
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Could you help me with something?

Why do people complain so about abilities that effects everyone? And skills available to everyone (exluding class specific skills)?

Like Immovable. I dont like it either but since it applies to everyone, it doesnt mean I get worse. I just need to adapt my gameplay?

Why do people go....OMG MY skills (global skills) makes me useless in PvP!!!
Does it?

Mojomonkeyman · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dmg shields should have a cap, for example 25% of your maximun health

If you make Shields a function of another survivability stat (e.g., health, armor or resistance), you get the following results:

- Squishies (Light Armor wearers) become incredibly squishy
- Tanks become much tankier

You'd solve one perceived problem, but you'd create two others. You may think having defenses scale with the same stat as offense is bad. Having active defenses scale off the same stats as passive ones, though, is worse.

If magicka-based classes are going to rely on active defenses, those active defenses have to be quite good.

This guy gets it. He probably has played a real PvP game before, unlike many very vocal others in this thread. Thanks for pointing out the (not so) obvious.

Derra · February 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

No one has any right to whine about Stealth Ganks in ESO, Radiant Mage Light completely negates stealth ganks.

Except that a nb can bypass radiant magelight on pts by using cloak before attacking because attacks out of cloak ignore radiant magelight. You might want to get a little more in touch with the actual game instead of spreading your theorycrafted nonsense on the forums.

Also: All hail to our nb gank overlords.

Septimus_Magna · February 2015

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Dmg shields should have a cap, for example 25% of your maximun health

If you make Shields a function of another survivability stat (e.g., health, armor or resistance), you get the following results:

- Squishies (Light Armor wearers) become incredibly squishy
- Tanks become much tankier

You'd solve one perceived problem, but you'd create two others. You may think having defenses scale with the same stat as offense is bad. Having active defenses scale off the same stats as passive ones, though, is worse.

If magicka-based classes are going to rely on active defenses, those active defenses have to be quite good.

This guy gets it. He probably has played a real PvP game before, unlike many very vocal others in this thread. Thanks for pointing out the (not so) obvious.

I agree sorcs can improve both offensive and defensive capabilities by increasing magicka but you need a large damage shield with hard hitting physical attacks. Right now on the pts my hardened ward is gone in 1-2 hits and I have 32k magicka. When my shield is gone my LA offers very little protection so I have to recast it to prevent instant death.

Lets think about the effect making shields cap on 25% health for example. I have about 20k health, only 1 shield against physical attacks so max 25k damage before I die. Two-handed attacks do around 8k damage each (before critting on shields). So thats about 4 attacks (with crit probably 3 attacks) and Im dead. I dont think pvp will get any better with such a change.

Tankqull · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't give a crap about healing wards or self heals. I'm not a healer, and I'm certainly not a shield spammer.

Restoration staff is going to scale with spell damage anyhow, so there's that travesty of "stamina builds" gone.

All I want to do is burst people down, and I don't want to equip a 2H Weapon on either slot to do that, or spend hundreds of potions each day in order to kill one person and then run away.

And no, potion regen buff alone doesn't keep you alive when doing 1vX.

I think the bold part makes it pretty clear what you want to do in this game. You don´t want fights you want to farm scrubs by putting a knife in their back. I´m sorry shields make that a little harder for you

Taken out of context (from another thread, even).

What I wanted to imply there, is that I want access to maximum burst damage without having to slot 2H, since that's what rogue type characters do. Dual Wield->Burst, CC & Stealth. Apparently, I'd have to slot a big 2-handed weapon in another bar and use it for Momentum solely in order to do that stealth burst. Makes sense, not.

Anyhow, enough off-topic

Nowhere do I imply I want to "one shot" people. Stealth should grant an advantage, but not decide fights by itself.

I'd prefer if fights in this game were longer than 0,1 seconds ("one shots"), and shorter than 30+ mins (shield stackers).

just get used to the fact that dual wield in this game aint the burst line.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

No one has any right to whine about Stealth Ganks in ESO, Radiant Mage Light completely negates stealth ganks.

i´m ganking alot und be assured there is absolutly nothing implemented but having 3-4+x more people that prevents you from beeing ganked.

McDoogs · February 2015

Cogo wrote: »

Have you guys heard of timing and player skill?
Non of these damage shields lasts forever. Either you do damage enough to break them OR you wait for them to run out.

Seams people here think all buffs are forever.

They talked about this in the Live show. Go watch it. They answered mr dduke question.

Yeah, that's a good solution, just sit around for 20 seconds waiting for hardened Ward to run out. Brilliant! Oh wait, they can be re-applied faster than they can be broken? Crap...

That said, a 15% nerf and allowing crits against is probably too much. We'll have to see.I think the most min/maxed magicka builds will still be pretty survivable. Crits alone would have been sufficient most likely. I know without crits, with 2500 weap damage and 35k stamina I could not wrecking blow through top builds hardened + healing + immovable (granted I could have min/maxed weap dmg and stam more, but I cant spend too many hours on pts with the 2hand bug)