This new damage stack/spam meta will be the death of PvP

Cody

People are going to disagree with me, people are going to insult my intelligence, but this new damage shield stacking meta WILL be the death of this game's PvP if it goes live like this.

I do not know the exact reasons why damage shield stacking is so powerful now in the PTS. I personally blame the lack of softcaps, but it could be anything; whatever the reason, this new meta is going to destroy what's left of PvP if it goes live like this. If it goes live like this, it will force many people to "adapt" to this new damage shield meta. Players will HAVE to use damage shield spam/stack builds just to survive. Players will not be able to play the builds that they want, and it WILL drive MANY people away from PvP. Not everyone purchased ESO and involved themselves in PvP just to use a damage shield stack/spam build. Many people want to do something different.

I don't care what the elite Ofthis game are going to say: WE SHOULD NOT BE FORCED INTO ONE PLAY STYLE JUST TO SURVIVE. "play how you want" is this game's motto. It does NOT mean "every build works" However, it also does NOT mean "play this one way or die"

So go ahead and laugh. Call me a "baddy" and give me the typical "L2P" response, but it will not change the reality of the situation. PvP IS GOING TO DIE IF 1.6 GOES LIVE LIKE THIS.

I have not even mentioned the other problems...:(

I hope I turn out to be wrong, but that is what I think will happen.

OK, say whatever y'all will.

Feidam

The entire system just changed. All we can do is give feedback. I do feel you should not be able to stack shields. If use a shield you should have to wait until it expires to use another. In the same vein though damage needs to be toned down across the board as well. Atm you have to stack shields in order to survive the burst damage in pvp. The best way to affect change imo is constructive feedback without exaggeration.

Edit. I'm not saying you exaggerated. Just throwing that out there for those that do.

olsborg

The removal of softcaps made everyone more bursty, and the reduction in max hitpoint didnt exactly help. Naturally to mitigate burst like that, damage shields is the best way. Wards in pvp has been strong since beta, but now...it more or less seems more mandatory then ever to slot atleast one if not 2(3) shields if you have them available.

If this is a good change is up to personal opinion, but speaking for myself, im not thrilled about it. Im not saying nerf wards, but something is wonky about 1.6 for sure.

Bouvin

I agree with OP.

PvP is not fun on 1.6 PTS.

TTK has gotten way too fast and Shield Stacking seems to be making it's way into the builds of everyone who is testing.

Iyas

New shield stacking meta? hm i played another 1.5 game

sabresandiego_ESO

Shield stacking was always the meta, and the new TTK is great because its only against light armor. Try wearing heavy if you want to be unkillable.

Shield stacking has become even more of an issue now though, with softcaps removed. I present the following solution which I wrote in another post:

Stacking damage shields has been the PVP meta since the release of the game. Many people didn't know this, and the people who did were basically gods on the battlefield. Now everybody knows, and everybody does it, and it can make people near unkillable in small scale situations. I like the way the damage shield system works, it creates fun battles, but in 1.6 it has gone slightly overboard due to the removal of softcaps. The game is balanced for larger scale fights, and overall the way damage shields work is actually a very fun system that rewards skill and reaction speed.

Now although damage shield stacking is almost as strong on live as it is in 1.6, the issue has been compounded by the softcap removal and people are dumping nearly 100% of their attributes and enchants into one stat like magicka. This not only gives them the highest offense possible with their spells, but also the strongest damage shields possible. This is especially true for sorcerrors using hardened ward.

Should the game really reward min maxers with both the best offense and best defense by dumping everything into one stat? (magicka)

Solutions to The Shield Stacking Meta:

1. Make shields be affected by healing debuffs. If you have a 40% healing debuff, your recasted shields are 40% weaker. This may already be happening on 1.6 PTS as I noticed weak shields at one point, and if it is, great change!

2. Make shields scale off something other than magicka. Sun shield already scales off health. Perhaps annulment should scale off spell resist, conjured ward should scale off armor (making bound armor and lightning form more useful in pvp) and something similar for other damage shields.

3. Make a select few skills do increased damage to damage shields, but make sure they are not regular skills that people spam. It should require thought to see the damage shield and make the decision to use the skill. Execute abilities would be perfect for this.

madangrypally

Damage shield stacking is an issue and will become a bigger issue as more players become known to this fact. This is not a new problem with Update 1.6, but an existing one.

A easy way to fix this issue is simply.
Damage Shield:
Major Buff: 30% of Max Health Damage Shield
Minor Buff: 15% of Max Health Damage Shield.

Above values are just an example and not sure what the percentages should be, but the point is have Major/Minor buffs.

This will mean if two damage shield buffs are used and both apply the Major Buff then it wont stack but the last one will overwrite the first one.

xaade

Feidam wrote: »

you should have to wait until it expires to use another.

Or it can refresh the largest shield. So, if the shield1 is X, and shield2 is X+N, and your current shield remaining is X-M, then

1. applying shield1 resets the shield to X.
2. applying shield2 resets the shield to X+N.

If your current shield is X+P and P is less than N.

1. applying shield 1 does nothing.
2. applying shield 2 resets to X+N.

Feidam wrote: »

In the same vein though damage needs to be toned down across the board as well.

Only if you're going to take a PvP nerf only.
PvE damage is perfectly fine.
The best would be to just give a 20% reduction to damage from other players.

olsborg

Or introduce a dispel spell/ability in the AvA skill trees. Works like purge, but its an offencive version. Dispels X amount of beneficial buffs on target(s).

DDuke

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

overall the way damage shields work is actually a very fun system that rewards skill and reaction speed.

I lol'd.

What dmg shields reward is mashing one button & zero situational awareness, since you can have 20 people hacking at you.
Most shield spammers don't even bother dodge rolling or blocking incoming CCs

Recremen

Hon the pts has been out for a week, take a chill pill while we figure out how this is going to work.

I'm not sure if I'm just not grasping the extent of the shield stacking meta or if you're blowing it out of proportion, but having one or two shield on your bar of ten abilities hardly seems that problematic to me. Like, are heals also too powerful? Are damage abilities just too much of an easy win button? Is the aggressive scaling of armor and weapons (which will only get worse over time) ruining your favorite boxing-in-boxers build?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that damage shields are as intrinsic to the game mechanics as any of the other above features, and worrying about needing them sounds just as silly to me.

Also you don't need to do the martyr complex thing, you're above that.

decado0024_ESO

Recremen wrote: »

Hon the pts has been out for a week, take a chill pill while we figure out how this is going to work.

I'm not sure if I'm just not grasping the extent of the shield stacking meta or if you're blowing it out of proportion, but having one or two shield on your bar of ten abilities hardly seems that problematic to me. Like, are heals also too powerful? Are damage abilities just too much of an easy win button? Is the aggressive scaling of armor and weapons (which will only get worse over time) ruining your favorite boxing-in-boxers build?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that damage shields are as intrinsic to the game mechanics as any of the other above features, and worrying about needing them sounds just as silly to me.

Also you don't need to do the martyr complex thing, you're above that.

How can something be intrinsic to gameplay or be the "meta" when there is an entire class that doesnt have them?

Panda244

Cody wrote: »

People are going to disagree with me, people are going to insult my intelligence, but this new damage shield stacking meta WILL be the death of this game's PvP if it goes live like this.

I do not know the exact reasons why damage shield stacking is so powerful now in the PTS. I personally blame the lack of softcaps, but it could be anything; whatever the reason, this new meta is going to destroy what's left of PvP if it goes live like this. If it goes live like this, it will force many people to "adapt" to this new damage shield meta. Players will HAVE to use damage shield spam/stack builds just to survive. Players will not be able to play the builds that they want, and it WILL drive MANY people away from PvP. Not everyone purchased ESO and involved themselves in PvP just to use a damage shield stack/spam build. Many people want to do something different.

I don't care what the elite Ofthis game are going to say: WE SHOULD NOT BE FORCED INTO ONE PLAY STYLE JUST TO SURVIVE. "play how you want" is this game's motto. It does NOT mean "every build works" However, it also does NOT mean "play this one way or die"

So go ahead and laugh. Call me a "baddy" and give me the typical "L2P" response, but it will not change the reality of the situation. PvP IS GOING TO DIE IF 1.6 GOES LIVE LIKE THIS.

I have not even mentioned the other problems...:(

I hope I turn out to be wrong, but that is what I think will happen.

OK, say whatever y'all will.

DK example. 1vX scenario. Lets say with 60 FPS and 120 ping.

DK swaps bars and hits igneous and harness. Both are damage shields.
The five people on the DK melt his shields before he swaps back to his sword n board bar, DK swaps back and stacks shields. Rince repeat. Over. And over. Until Dk runs out of stamina or runs out of magicka and dies.

Shield Stacker < Smart People

Shield stacking never worked and never has worked. It's just a silly tactic idiots use to tank indefinitely and do no damage, if someone has to reapply a shield every time it drops they will not under any circumstances be dealing a lot of damage. Unless the people dealing damage to them are absolutely horrible and can't break a shield... For a NB it's incredibly easy to break someones' damage shield, Ambush, Surprise Attack, or Ambush, Incap Strike.

sabresandiego_ESO

Nightblades just use steadfast ward and/or annulment, and synergize it with their own class mechanics for superb survivability.

technohic

I agree with you OP.

I am using damage shields because it gives full mitigation and I can keep them up constantly. So much damage flying around it makes it to where the game is just making sure you keep your shields and immovable up. Its not fun but you'd be a fool not to use it.

Snit

Sorcs won't survive without big damage shields. Light Armor mitigates like pajamas, and Critical Surge has been more or less removed from the game as a source of healing.

Perhaps stacking could be addressed, by making the second shield only apply at 50% of its value, then 25% for the third. But people need to remember that these mechanics apply outside of PvP, too, and you can't balance everything around your disappointment that Light Armor wearers don't always die quickly when you close on them

OtarTheMad

PvP won't be fun if this goes live as is because some players are getting one shot by bow users and so you almost HAVE to use shields in order to survive a gank attack. Without my Conjured Ward my Sorc would have been destroyed in PvP a few times so far. And these aren't bad players getting one/two shot... I've seen them PvP before.

technohic

Snit wrote: »

Sorcs won't survive without big damage shields. Light Armor mitigates like pajamas, and Critical Surge has been more or less removed from the game as a source of healing.

Perhaps stacking could be addressed, by making the second shield only apply at 50% of its value, then 25% for the third. But people need to remember that these mechanics apply outside of PvP, too, and you can't balance everything around your disappointment that Light Armor wearers don't always die quickly when you close on them

Part of it to me is damage needs to go down as well. Shields are powerful and always have been. They are even more now with all the damage flying at you.

sabresandiego_ESO

Damage does not need to go down. Try fighting someone in heavy armor, damage is not high. It just seems high because everyone wants to run around in light armor and be as tanky as before 1.6. Light armor finally has drawbacks (although these drawbacks are mostly circumvented by shield stacking)

Panda244

There is no problem with damage shields imo... Everyone has access to them, or at least one of them, harness magicka, and if you keep it up in small scale fights then you're going to be just as tanky as the guy you're fighting, given he's a magicka build. Damage stacking is a thing, it doesn't effect large scale PvP battles at all so I have no problem with it, and in small scale battles I just run the shield stacker out of stamina then stun him, and he melts. If they try to fix this, which isn't broken, Sorcs will lose out on all their fun because they'll be weaker than a dung beetle. Sorcs need shield stacking to survive.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Damage does not need to go down. Try fighting someone in heavy armor, damage is not high. It just seems high because everyone wants to run around in light armor and be as tanky as before 1.6. Light armor finally has drawbacks (although these drawbacks are mostly circumvented by shield stacking)

You're not as tanky as before though, if your damage shield drops you get smacked in the face with higher damage. Not to mention the insane rate of stamina drain when blocking, shield stacking is a thing, and it forces the person to stop all offense to do it, so I have no issues with it. The only time I ever "Stack" shields with any of my characters is when I'm on my DK, surrounded by 5 or more people, at low health, I hit Draw Essence, swap bars, drop cinder storm, igneous shield, harness magicka, GDB, swap bars, Draw Essence, talons, rince repeat.

The shields are to give me a breather, they don't make me god. Every class has access to something that gives them a breather, Sorcs have blink, NBs have cloak, when it works, Temps have Blazing Shield, DKs get Igneous Shield.

The only offense based shield is Blazing... The rest are fine. If they nerf shield stacking they have to nerf overall damage, because without shields you'll run into a large group stacked on a flag and incinerate faster than you already do WITH shields.

sabresandiego_ESO

I am a sorc. Shield stacking is indeed very important to sorc survivability. That being said, its overpowered right now for people who min max everything into magicka. I dont want to see shield stacking become unviable, but it should be better balanced than it is. Shield stacking is an issue right now and needs to be toned down a bit, but not gutted.

Panda244

Just another thing I'd like to point out, if you put EVERYTHING into magicka, then yes you'll have OP damage shields. It's no different than a heavy armor user with 3 block cost reduction enchants 62 points into stamina and 4k health. Neither of these people can do any significant damage so why is everyone complaining about it?

If someone is stacking shields it's usually because they've entered what I call "Survival Mode" where they know they're going to die no matter what but they throw all their resources into surviving for as long as possible in hopes a miracle happens. Most times the miracle doesn't happen, sometimes a Templar bursts through the front door of Bleakers drops a nova on all of EP and I run out from the transitus shrine and scream "GET OFF MY LAWN!" smack the synergy and wipe 20 people with it and impulse.

The above moment at Bleakers is the only time shield stacking ever paid off for me... And it was all thanks to a Templar arriving in time to drop a nova on the EP.

sabresandiego_ESO

This is not true. If you put everything into magicka, not only do you have OP damage shields, you also have OP magickal damage. You basically get offense and defense for one stat. As long as you always recast shields immediately, you really arent that squishy, and your offense is insanely powerful to boot.

The person who goes all heavy armor and block cost reduction is even more unkillable than the shield stacker, but their offense is most likely pathetic compared to the pure magicka caster who is pumping insane DPS on top of having damage shields.

There is a big difference here.

OtarTheMad

If they nerf damage shields but don't tone down some of the damage players can put on others then no one will PvP because it will be a one shot festival with everyone getting hit with focused aim or lethal arrow for 23k.

Lionxoft

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

This is not true. If you put everything into magicka, not only do you have OP damage shields, you also have OP magickal damage. You basically get offense and defense for one stat. As long as you always recast shields immediately, you really arent that squishy, and your offense is insanely powerful to boot.

The person who goes all heavy armor and block cost reduction is even more unkillable than the shield stacker, but their offense is most likely pathetic compared to the pure magicka caster who is pumping insane DPS on top of having damage shields.

There is a big difference here.

Here's a fix. Scale all damage shields off of health.

Feidam

xaade wrote: »

Feidam wrote: »

you should have to wait until it expires to use another.

Or it can refresh the largest shield. So, if the shield1 is X, and shield2 is X+N, and your current shield remaining is X-M, then

1. applying shield1 resets the shield to X.
2. applying shield2 resets the shield to X+N.

If your current shield is X+P and P is less than N.

1. applying shield 1 does nothing.
2. applying shield 2 resets to X+N.

Feidam wrote: »

In the same vein though damage needs to be toned down across the board as well.

Only if you're going to take a PvP nerf only.
PvE damage is perfectly fine.
The best would be to just give a 20% reduction to damage from other players.

Was thinking that the nerf to damage would accompany changes to PVE to keep the same pve ratios but help pvp but increasing the time to kill.

While I am definitely ok with Light armor being squishy I am not ok with the light armor users being canon fodder. I'm a light armor user that is stacking shields myself, because I have to to even have a chance to participate in the fight. Otherwise, it is 2hander guy rolls up and nails me with so much damage that I'm dead before I can respond fro his second attack. And that is with me sitting at 25k to 26k hp. The shields are what allows me to respond. The burst is too much. That's just one example. Another is it is frustrating me as a healer to have run around keeping heals flowing even out of combat otherwise I might not get the chance to heal anyone because people are dropping to quickly unless they stack shields. Nice vicious cycle happening.

Xsorus

Some of you are posting like you've not played on PTS..and are basing your entire gameplay experience about how 1.5 is.

on 1.6 now..you can stack 20k+ shields on yourself... while maintaining perma mana upkeep while doing insane dps..and you won't be crit..multiple abilities will not proc on you because shields absorb it..and since ya don't need to block you can save all your stamina for immovable making you immune to CC

Panda244

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Some of you are posting like you've not played on PTS..and are basing your entire gameplay experience about how 1.5 is.

on 1.6 now..you can stack 20k+ shields on yourself... while maintaining perma mana upkeep while doing insane dps..and you won't be crit..multiple abilities will not proc on you because shields absorb it..and since ya don't need to block you can save all your stamina for immovable making you immune to CC

People can already do that. Igneous Shield + Harness Magicka = 70% of my total HP damage shield.

Blazing Shield + Harness Magicka = More than 50% of HP damage shield.
Conjured Ward + Harness Magicka = 100% of your HP damage shield. Or at least it can be.

Ontop of that theres the Barrier Ultimate, the weapon enchant, the shield charge ability, bone shield, magma shell synergy, etc.

sabresandiego_ESO

Yes shield stacking + immovable is definitely OP on PTS because the same build also has some of the highest DPS in the game due to maxing magicka. They will most likely adjust immovable cc immunity duration to make it unsustainable stamina wise for these types of min maxed builds first, which is a great change, but it won't solve the issue of max magicka builds having both exceptional offense and exceptional defense from shield stacking. As I mentioned before, shields should scale off non offensive stats. Annulment could scale off spell resistance, sun shield off health, conjured ward off armor, obsidian shield off healing recieved, etc... And execute skills should do bonus damage to shields, and healing debuffs should effect shields (they might already in 1.6).

Feidam

Whether or not people already stacks shields is a non issue. It shouldn'tt have ever been a thing imo. Now, however, it is required that you do so to even have a chance of fighting back.

Stacking as much impen as possible and the crit reduction champion passive isn't enough. One week into testing and where people were doing 15k stealth openers the majority of players are now doing 20 to 25k stealth openers. The shields are required now.

Panda244

Feidam wrote: »

Whether or not people already stacks shields is a non issue. It shouldn'tt have ever been a thing imo. Now, however, it is required that you do so to even have a chance of fighting back.

Stacking as much impen as possible and the crit reduction champion passive isn't enough. One week into testing and where people were doing 15k stealth openers the majority of players are now doing 20 to 25k stealth openers. The shields are required now.

This. The shields have always been required against good stealth players though, even in 1.5 there are some very good players that can crit for 2-2.5k out of stealth with lethal arrow. And without a shield all they have to do to finish you is an execute, with a shield at least you get a tiny bit of room to breathe before the next arrow comes whizzing into your skull, or the 2h sword comes down to cleave your head off. The burst damage from stamina is just insane... You need shields to survive the burst.