Puncturing Strikes - Buff or Nerf?

Alcast · February 2015

For Example lets take Biting Jabs:

On Live server atm:
Costs magicka
Increases crit hit chance up to 70% vs low health targets
110% additional dmg vs nearest enemy

On PTS 1.6-1.6.1
Costs stamina
major savagery buff(10%+ crit)
170% additional dmg vs nearest enemy.
major savagery buff(10%+ crit) 140% additional dmg vs nearest enemy

On PTS atm:
Costs stamina
major savagery buff(10%+ crit)
140% additional dmg vs nearest enemy.

My point is:

First they boost the dmg by x1,54 (110% to 170%), but they take away the higher crit chance vs low health enemies.

2nd they change the dmg by x1,27 (110% to 140%) but the extra crit is still gone.

so what do you guys think, is it a overall buff or nerf?
I hope my math is right >.>

Bugged or not:

Wrecking blow grants Empower Buff 20% increased damage for next attack.
However, when I use Wrecking Blow and then use biting jabs, biting jabs does still the same amount of damage.

My normal Tooltip of Biting jabs says 488 damage. When i use Wrecking Blow which gives me 20% more dmg for next attack and I go check Biting Jabs window, it says 585 damage. But it still does same dmg as with 488 Tooltip though. So is it a tooltip bug or does the increased damage not work?

Empower says 20% increase on next attack, it doesnt say that it cant be a channel attack.
Does sb know if the 20% works on soul assault or any other channel attack?

Gyudan · February 2015

It's a Burf, but still mostly a buff because of the 140% additional dmg vs nearest enemy.

Alcast · February 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

It's a Burf, but still mostly a buff because of the 140% additional dmg vs nearest enemy.

uhh you were fast, i added some stuff now, accidentally pressed the post button lol.

well the dmg increase is now 1,27. But we lost the inc crit chance vs low health enemies.

madangrypally · February 2015

Depends on the player.

The critical change was a big nerf.
The increased damage was a big buff.
The cc immunity from the Stun as a fix.
The change from magicka to stamina was a nice change.

Overall I feel the ability has not been nerfed or buffed. If doing the math on the changes I expect it will come out as a buff on single target and a nerf on multiple targets.

david.haypreub18_ESO · February 2015

Nerf, unfortunately. Quite a substantial one.

The biggest nerf is the CC immunity. I'm not saying that didn't need fixing... but they should be fair and do the same thing to Talons (make it give CC immunity) if they are nerfing Jabs in the same way.

danno8 · February 2015

So:

1.6.(1) was definitely a buff as the extra 60% damage (110%-->170%) at all times is way better than the extra crit (50% more damage) at low health. And also you got 10% bonus crit at all times which was icing on the cake.

1.6.2 is now only 30% extra damage at all times (110%-->140%) but that is all the time, and you still get the 10% crit at all times.

Let's run some math with some comparable numbers over a decent amount of time:

100 damage per strike base.
mob with 10,000 health

Live:
45 strikes to get to 50% health then you start getting the bonus for crit chance.
I have to make an assumption here of:
50%-40%= 10%
40-30%= 30%
30-20% = 50%
20- 0% = 70%

50-40% = 9 strikes to get to 40%health
40-30 = 8 strikes to get to 30%
30-20 = 7 strikes to get to 20%
20-0 = 12 strikes to get to dead

These numbers are rounded but should be close. Around 81 strikes of Biting Jabs or around 20-21 skill presses.

1.6.2:
10% crit buff works out, over time, to be a 5% increase in damage (.1 x .50%). Add that to the 40% and we get essentially 45% more damage. So our base 100 hit becomes 145.

10000/145 = 69 hits or 17-18 skill presses.

So for single target it is a buff.

But for AoE you only get the crit buff which would be 5% more damage, compared to live which is 10% more AND the execute.

So for AoE is is a nerf.

TL:DR: It is a buff for single target, nerf for AoE

Feidam · February 2015

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Nerf, unfortunately. Quite a substantial one.

The biggest nerf is the CC immunity. I'm not saying that didn't need fixing... but they should be fair and do the same thing to Talons (make it give CC immunity) if they are nerfing Jabs in the same way.

I would love for talons to trigger immunity. However, it is a root not a stun. I think that is where the difference lies. Without the immunity trigger puncturing strikes is a bit op. Same thing with blazing spear. Don't get me wrong I love blazing spear but I agree with the change. Just like I agree with puncturing strikes triggering the immunity.

asteldian · February 2015

Ah, but for stamina users it is a buff no matter how you look at it. The big question is whether the latest version is a dps gain or loss vs wrecking blow/rapid strikes as they are your main spam attacks as melee stamina user.

Feidam · February 2015

That would be hard to quantify atm. Since wrecking appears to be bugged.

Alcast · February 2015

Feidam wrote: »

That would be hard to quantify atm. Since wrecking appears to be bugged.

Wblow= 1st hit 3998 /2nd hit 4760 (with 20% more dmg for next attack, empoweer buff)
jabs+B. Light= 5161

though jabs has 1,1 sec casttime. So it is close and depends how many times B. Light procs.
and it also depends on which you better can animation cancel.

Father · February 2015

Let me tell u the other side of the coin... It deals a great in your face dmg to players in pvp..so yah its a buff. more Oplars reporting higher dps than live with this skill.

Alcast · February 2015

Father wrote: »

Let me tell u the other side of the coin... It deals a great in your face dmg to players in pvp..so yah its a buff. more Oplars reporting higher dps than live with this skill.

that mainy because ppl still wear too much light and dont realise they do have like 5000 armor res(500 compared to live)

jopeymonster · February 2015

Feidam wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Nerf, unfortunately. Quite a substantial one.

The biggest nerf is the CC immunity. I'm not saying that didn't need fixing... but they should be fair and do the same thing to Talons (make it give CC immunity) if they are nerfing Jabs in the same way.

I would love for talons to trigger immunity. However, it is a root not a stun. I think that is where the difference lies. Without the immunity trigger puncturing strikes is a bit op. Same thing with blazing spear. Don't get me wrong I love blazing spear but I agree with the change. Just like I agree with puncturing strikes triggering the immunity.

But what's happening now is that you are punishing a Templar for using an ability in PvP. No other class has this same disparity. The design of this ability is bad as the current meta and coding make it. It should be redesigned completely to conform with standards as opposed to nerfing it so that it becomes ineffective in PvP.

This isn't even a real stun. If it was a stun like Shards, it would be justified, but since its only a KNOCKBACK, not stun, the CC immunity makes this skill completely useless (and counter productive) in PvP.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ - re-evaluate this please, or give us reason why the cc immunity was placed other then, "Cuz you can spam it". With this change, you can't even use it once...

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Father · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Father wrote: »

Let me tell u the other side of the coin... It deals a great in your face dmg to players in pvp..so yah its a buff. more Oplars reporting higher dps than live with this skill.

that mainy because ppl still wear too much light and dont realise they do have like 5000 armor res(500 compared to live)

No, I wear 5 med 2 heavy on 1 toon and full heavy on the other. it really hurts specialy if u keep getting CC.

Alcast · February 2015

Father wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Father wrote: »

Let me tell u the other side of the coin... It deals a great in your face dmg to players in pvp..so yah its a buff. more Oplars reporting higher dps than live with this skill.

that mainy because ppl still wear too much light and dont realise they do have like 5000 armor res(500 compared to live)

No, I wear 5 med 2 heavy on 1 toon and full heavy on the other. it really hurts specialy if u keep getting CC.

Okay, Well, now the skill is useless in PvP because it does LESS dmg again and it grants CC immunity to the other guy. I think the CC immunity would have been enough, they shouldnt also have nerfed the dmg output of the skill.
Melee skills are supposed to hurt as hell.

Alcast · February 2015

jopeymonster wrote: »

Feidam wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Nerf, unfortunately. Quite a substantial one.

The biggest nerf is the CC immunity. I'm not saying that didn't need fixing... but they should be fair and do the same thing to Talons (make it give CC immunity) if they are nerfing Jabs in the same way.

I would love for talons to trigger immunity. However, it is a root not a stun. I think that is where the difference lies. Without the immunity trigger puncturing strikes is a bit op. Same thing with blazing spear. Don't get me wrong I love blazing spear but I agree with the change. Just like I agree with puncturing strikes triggering the immunity.

But what's happening now is that you are punishing a Templar for using an ability in PvP. No other class has this same disparity. The design of this ability is bad as the current meta and coding make it. It should be redesigned completely to conform with standards as opposed to nerfing it so that it becomes ineffective in PvP.

This isn't even a real stun. If it was a stun like Shards, it would be justified, but since its only a KNOCKBACK, not stun, the CC immunity makes this skill completely useless (and counter productive) in PvP.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ - re-evaluate this please, or give us reason why the cc immunity was placed other then, "Cuz you can spam it". With this change, you can't even use it once...

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

First they nerf the dmg from 170% to 140% only because of PvP, and then they add CC immunity to it to make it COMPLETELY useless for PvP, i mean cmon wtf are they trying to do?

Francescolg · February 2015

Would be nice if ZoS could comment, why the damage decrease was necessary!

Lettigall · February 2015

In PvP perma stunlock + huge dmg was OP so changes were imminent. I think simply removing "knocking back" ability from skill would be enough. If it was simply high dmg channeled skill I think it would be fine for everyone.