With No Softcaps: Hybrids Are Weak And Putting Everything Into One Attribute Is Strong

Lionxoft · February 2015

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

People are just going to have to adapt. Old mindsets are going to need to change. I had to change my style and preference, you'll have to do the same if you want to be successful.

Running away hasn't changed or has it?

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

Thats one of the sorcerrors strengths, mobility

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

So with the arrival of 1.6 - will the practice of placing ALL your attribute points in Health and using Enchants to improve the resource of your choice be going away?

Will it be reversed? Will I need to put all my attribute points into the resource I use for damage and have to use all my enchantments for more health?

Khivas_Carrick · February 2015

Define hybrid, because some of my stuff is a little tanky and I was kicking ass with DPS....

Circuitous · February 2015

Rather than add softcaps... what if every skill just didn't scale with your resource pool? That alone has and will always penalize anyone who tries to effectively use both resources. Then you could just put points where you need them. I figure trying to build for either weapon damage or spell damage (and all other relevant attributes) is already enough to differentiate the two disciplines.

AssaultLemming · February 2015

It was always a bad decision to have damage scale off a resource pool. Can't imagine what they were thinking. Damage should be based off spell and weapon damage stats with crit as the modifier. Then you would need to choose between how often you can cast something and how strong it will be.

Snit · February 2015

Rather than reimagining the entire resource-damage relationship, I hope they simply reinstate some soft caps. They can be higher than they were, but something needs to be done so those who wish to run stamina/ magicka hybrids aren't left completely out in the cold.

Beleron · February 2015

WELL it comes down to ONLY HAVING stam or magica .. or hp for tanking.
Other rpg's have
strength
intellect
wisdom
agility
will
power
hope

If the itemization didn't SUCK, there wouldn't be such a problem.
More stats = you can tweak more stat pools to blend ability that scale off different things.
Here we have 2... so if your caster based, magica, physical based, stam.
The itemization is the core problem because players, ARE NOT FORCED to actually make a choice. You dont have to think, ok I need a bit of this, and some of this, and a tiny bit of these, to balance my abilities out. Things like, "after using this ability the next ability gets a damage boost. This boost is equal to this abilitys damage x3" However have them scale off different pools. That is where you get more hybrid things.

They instead give us, phyiscal dmg? ok stack stam. magical? ok magica. Not like you see to stack one stat for some regen, another for your resorce pool, another for the actual damage. It makes you CHOOSE and DECIDE what you need to balance out a spec.

The itemization is just to dumbed down in eso and has always caused problems. We have the combat, the dungeons, the challenge, that other mmorpgs don't have, like wow ( an example since its well known ). However unlike wow, we don't have good itemization. We don't even get good rewards from hard content.

Domander · February 2015

Health needs to be way way more valuable than it is now.

SlaaMM · February 2015

It's called min/max the way it should be, and who does not put all of the attribute points in health anyway? Anything else is a waste of points

SlaaMM · February 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

No, no, NO. Soft caps are horrible and needed to go away. So many more interesting "edge case" builds are possible now!

The REAL solution to the hybrid problem is to base damage on (Magicka + Stamina) / 2 instead of just Magicka or Stamina.

AHH Hell to the no!!!
They just fixed that confusing mess, with the weapons, where have you been?

SlaaMM · February 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Damage and Scaling:

, but currently in the 1.6.1 test environment all hybrids are being annihilated by max magicka or max stamina builds.

As it should be

jelliedsoup · February 2015

Domander wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Almost all balance issues have the same thing in common: scaling out of control due to no softcaps. Lets take a look at the primary balance issues on the PTS right now.

1. Damage shields scaling out of control on max magicka sorcerrors
2. Stamina damage scaling out of control on max stam max weapon damage templars, dks, and nb's
3. Survivability out of control on health stacking heavy armor perma blocking builds

All of these are extremes that are from min maxing. Right now, the way to build a character is to put everything into one stat, and then create a build around it.

Yep, a balanced character is at a disadvantage.

Then don't balance. I wouldn't expect a jack of all trades to be dominant in any aspect.

Sentinel · February 2015

SlaaMM wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Damage and Scaling:

, but currently in the 1.6.1 test environment all hybrids are being annihilated by max magicka or max stamina builds.

As it should be

Why is it that someone who narrows their focus into one attribute dominate someone who uses all attributes in every way?

Currently there is no advantage to a hybrid build. No added sustainability, nothing that can go up against someone who is min/maxed.

In my opinion, min/maxed builds should be best at a single thing, with extremely narrowed options compared to a hybrid build that can be good at all things.

The system should allow the hybrid build to exploit the min/maxed builds' narrow-focus, which is something that has a dire need of implementation (at least for a PvP standpoint).

Holycannoli · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

So with the arrival of 1.6 - will the practice of placing ALL your attribute points in Health and using Enchants to improve the resource of your choice be going away?

Will it be reversed? Will I need to put all my attribute points into the resource I use for damage and have to use all my enchantments for more health?

Looks like it, which really sucks for me. My main character - my only high level - is a sorcerer who uses a bow in PvP and a destro staff in PvE . All attribute points in health, 0 in magicka and stamina, stamina enchants on a medium armor set for PvP and magicka enchants on light armor set for PvE. Since he concentrates on health and stamina I rerolled him to imperial for the bonuses. It's not a min/max character but it's fun and works well enough for me.

Wtf am I supposed to do with him now??

Snit · February 2015

Holycannoli wrote: »

Wtf am I supposed to do with him now??

A stamina-based imperial sorcerer may work just fine. I hope so, as I'm growing one as an alt. Of course, I'm going DW/ Bow (or 2H/ Bow in Cyrodil), as I think hybrid builds are dead. Playing around with one as a V14 template was fun, though he's squishy

I'm sure we'll get free, full respecs for 1.6. You may have a decent character. Lightning Form is much better now, and it suits the build well. Just hope ZOS comes to their senses and unscrews Critical Surge, or... yeah, in that case, you probably got nothin'

Ezareth · February 2015

Lionxoft wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

People are just going to have to adapt. Old mindsets are going to need to change. I had to change my style and preference, you'll have to do the same if you want to be successful.

Running away hasn't changed or has it?

I'm able to bolt Escape far more on my main in PTS than I was even *before* the bolt escape nerf. 17 in a row without pots or dark exchange. My Pre-nerf count was 12 or 14 if I recall. On live now it is 11 I think.

However, if more than 1 person is attacking me now, unlike in live I die quickly. Not having the ability to roll dodge more than once or twice out of a full stamina bar puts a serious damper on survivability.

Septimus_Magna · February 2015

@Domander‌

1. There is only 1 shield that aborbs melee, taking that away would make sorcs so squishy that they get one-shot by anyone who uses two-handed. Even making it scale of health would remove its use for 90% of the sorcs.

2. They have high damage but low survivability due to the fact there are no big stamina shields. There is a stamina heal now but its HOT so not as effective as an instant heal or shield.

3. Health stackers will not do high dps so they dont die but also cant kill anyone. So no real problem there imo.

The things that might seem OP atm are mostly based on duels, not big group content. The thing thats needs a slight nerf is the two-handed damage, bows and dual-wield dont hit nearly as hard.

olsborg · February 2015

Damage is out of control, thats about all I have to say.

Domander · February 2015

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Almost all balance issues have the same thing in common: scaling out of control due to no softcaps. Lets take a look at the primary balance issues on the PTS right now.

1. Damage shields scaling out of control on max magicka sorcerrors
2. Stamina damage scaling out of control on max stam max weapon damage templars, dks, and nb's
3. Survivability out of control on health stacking heavy armor perma blocking builds

All of these are extremes that are from min maxing. Right now, the way to build a character is to put everything into one stat, and then create a build around it.

Yep, a balanced character is at a disadvantage.

Then don't balance. I wouldn't expect a jack of all trades to be dominant in any aspect.

Neither would I, but right now they're not equal in overall power either, which is creating balance issues.

Domander · February 2015

I think this would help.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/150838/diminishing-returns-needed-on-damage-increase-from-magicka-stamina#latest

Beleron · February 2015

why not just make it so you either have to stack crit itself, or crit multiplier. Have base crit multiplier zero. So if u don't get any, u crit for normal dmg, not 2x ect. Then you either do crazy high crit dmg, but very rare crits, or lots of crits, small dmg.

ToRelax · February 2015

Beleron wrote: »

why not just make it so you either have to stack crit itself, or crit multiplier. Have base crit multiplier zero. So if u don't get any, u crit for normal dmg, not 2x ect. Then you either do crazy high crit dmg, but very rare crits, or lots of crits, small dmg.

... so no one will make a crit build?

If you make it just as easy to stack as is, it won't change anything either.

Crit is fine, need more health and lower damage.

Suntzu1414 · February 2015

to be quite frank. I believe they will eventually return soft/hard caps.

But they will be re-named ...something...non-commital.
Like protection points. Or stability bars.

Mind my words.

Kill Well
ST

Faulgor · February 2015

Circuitous wrote: »

Rather than add softcaps... what if every skill just didn't scale with your resource pool? That alone has and will always penalize anyone who tries to effectively use both resources. Then you could just put points where you need them. I figure trying to build for either weapon damage or spell damage (and all other relevant attributes) is already enough to differentiate the two disciplines.

Fully agree. A resource pool should not directly determine the effectiveness of the abilities that use that pool. Have they never heard of the division of powers? There should be a difference between a mage that can cast high power magic, but not often, and doesn't regenerate fast; one that doesn't hit very hard and often, but regenerates fast; and one that can cast often, but not as hard, and doesn't regenerate as fast. Currently, it's all-or-nothing. There is no choice involved. But I think it was even worse before 1.6.

Beleron wrote: »

WELL it comes down to ONLY HAVING stam or magica .. or hp for tanking.
Other rpg's have
strength
intellect
wisdom
agility
will
power
hope

Yeah, we had those. But apparently they were too complicated for today's RPG audience and got removed with Skyrim. ESO simply used Skyrim's H/M/S attribute system, but it doesn't work as well for several reasons.

If I could chose to have Strength / Endurance / Agility / Speed / Intelligence / Willpower / Personality / Luck back, I would. But that's never going to happen.

Nivzruo_ESO · February 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

If everyone can be OP by min/maxing, then does it mean that the game is ... balanced?
Maybe the issue comes from all the tests being done in dueling situations, which don't really reflect the Alliance War happening on live. Every time I've been to Cyrodiil on the PTS this week, all the players were engaged in 1v1 fights and nobody was sieging keeps. If PVPers spent more time in group fights and less time perfecting their 1v1 builds, we'd see less threads complaining about shield spamming or permablock or maxed weapon damage.

The game should be balanced around 1v1.

Valnas · February 2015

As someone pretty firmly in the ava > 1v1 playstyle, duelers are doing us a service testing every ability and pushing the extreme builds out now so we can either tolerate them with soft counters or not before it gets live.

Snit · February 2015

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

The game should be balanced around 1v1.

My own wild-arse guess is that 5% of the overall player base is primarily concerned with 1v1. They're also among the most motivated and enthusiastic posters, though.

You don't bring the same build to a duel as you do to group content (unless you want to be mediocre at both). Balance has to consider that, for every player engaged in regular duels in Cyrodiil, there are probably 20 in Dungeons, Trials, DSA, soloing delves or also in Cyrodiil, but grouped up in a team.

Holycannoli · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Wtf am I supposed to do with him now??

A stamina-based imperial sorcerer may work just fine. I hope so, as I'm growing one as an alt. Of course, I'm going DW/ Bow (or 2H/ Bow in Cyrodil), as I think hybrid builds are dead. Playing around with one as a V14 template was fun, though he's squishy

I'm sure we'll get free, full respecs for 1.6. You may have a decent character. Lightning Form is much better now, and it suits the build well. Just hope ZOS comes to their senses and unscrews Critical Surge, or... yeah, in that case, you probably got nothin'

I really hope so. I was thinking about going bow/2hand or bow/shield but it seems sorcerers are all about shield stacking now and that requires full magicka.

frould · February 2015

The way to go is to breaking TES traditional divide/add more stats such as Magica/
Health/Stamina only increase resource pool then have Int/Vit/Str for increase magic damage/defend/phy damage( I'm not ok with this) or bring back softcaps.
..or leave it as it should be.