Crown Store Items and Prices definitely sounds P2W to me

LtCrunch · February 2015

Close enough.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Welka wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

How is it P2W?

oh wait, it's not...

When did they lie? Oh wait, they didn't... They said from get go that potions from the store won't be better than crafted potions but slightly better than potions bought ingame. Info from the B2P announcement video. Get your facts right before vomiting garbage on the forums please

They clearly said items in the crown shop would not be an better than items sold in game by vendors but repair kits That repair every broken item in your inventory are far superior to kits that only repair one item within a certain level range.

OK, but it's like a couple of hundred gold to repair to gear, if you do it sensibly, so not much of an advantage.

That's beside the point. It's "only" couple of hundred now. Better is better no matter how small the difference is and according to their own words, it's should not be better. And cash shop game hasn't even started yet. Remember, the most scary part of cash shops is the possibility to slowly creep towards more difference between in game and cash shop. And excuses like "it's only" do not help in preventing this from happening.
Any kind of difference or advantage can be excused with "if you do it sensibly". Do you really want to make excuses for someone who has already proven does not stick to their own promises? I guess you do, as you probably see it as helping. I am just wondering who or what you are helping with that?

Still don't see the point about repair kits since... who the hell uses repair kits!?

TP in town, repair, TP back to instance. And honestly since you can faceroll any instance these days, who needs to repair anyway?

A THOUSAND TIMES THIS

I'll try to explain his point for you.

He was saying that the developers broke their promise because the repair kits in the cash shop are better than the repair kits you buy from the vendors.

Rather the items help you win or not is a useless semantic debate about what the word win means. The more significant point is that they appear to already be breaking their stated boundaries regarding the cash shop and it's not even up and running yet.

They're not better, just more convenient. I prefer kits that repair all in one go. What would you prefer, that they sell the same kits than in game and cut the crown price by 7? What difference dis it make? None...

They are no better and won't help you win.

If they are more convenient then they are better. Which is why even you say you prefer them. So not sure what you are trying to say there.

And you are missing my point about his point. It's not about rather they help you win or not - which as I said is a silly debate about semantics I don't want to engage.

It's about the company playing loose with the truth by saying the cash shop wouldn't sell items that are better than what you can buy from the in-game vendors.

We've all known ZOS employee's have Ph-friggin'-D's in Wordsmithery for months now. It's a universal truth. Vaguery is their native tongue anymore.

But to get bent out of shape, grasp at straws so damn hard and proclaim the sky is falling - that potions and repair kits are the beginnings of a Tamrielic version of Skynet is just ridiculous.

It's fearmongering at the very least. Unnecessary and idiotic at best. So you can sit there and argue what his or her or whoever's point was left and right and until you're blue in the face - fact of the matter is, what is being perceived as OP or P2W in the iteration of the Crown Store that has yet to be is grossly exaggerated and so far off base it's not even in the same ballpark any longer.

I'm running out of analogies to use to convey just how wildly unnecessary the rampant knee-jerk, unintelligent blamethrowing and doomsaying is.

Though, threads like this do serve the purpose of warning the Devs against taking a P2W path in the future.

Hopefully they listen.

But for the love of all things holy people, stop being dogs with bones/squirrels with nuts, let the subject friggin' die already.

Devs have no say about it, they obey their bosses, who obey their bosses, who obey their boss who says make the game friendly to whatever demographic is more likely to spend cash in store.

Bottom line is ZOS or Bethesda are businesses, not charities.

Oh without a doubt. But if they *** off their playerbase too much, they won't have much of one left, even the whales won't be able to sustain them and the game will collapse.

Here's to hoping this never becomes the case.

Iago · February 2015

Welka wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

How is it P2W?

oh wait, it's not...

When did they lie? Oh wait, they didn't... They said from get go that potions from the store won't be better than crafted potions but slightly better than potions bought ingame. Info from the B2P announcement video. Get your facts right before vomiting garbage on the forums please

They clearly said items in the crown shop would not be an better than items sold in game by vendors but repair kits That repair every broken item in your inventory are far superior to kits that only repair one item within a certain level range.

OK, but it's like a couple of hundred gold to repair to gear, if you do it sensibly, so not much of an advantage.

That's beside the point. It's "only" couple of hundred now. Better is better no matter how small the difference is and according to their own words, it's should not be better. And cash shop game hasn't even started yet. Remember, the most scary part of cash shops is the possibility to slowly creep towards more difference between in game and cash shop. And excuses like "it's only" do not help in preventing this from happening.
Any kind of difference or advantage can be excused with "if you do it sensibly". Do you really want to make excuses for someone who has already proven does not stick to their own promises? I guess you do, as you probably see it as helping. I am just wondering who or what you are helping with that?

Still don't see the point about repair kits since... who the hell uses repair kits!?

TP in town, repair, TP back to instance. And honestly since you can faceroll any instance these days, who needs to repair anyway?

A THOUSAND TIMES THIS

I'll try to explain his point for you.

He was saying that the developers broke their promise because the repair kits in the cash shop are better than the repair kits you buy from the vendors.

Rather the items help you win or not is a useless semantic debate about what the word win means. The more significant point is that they appear to already be breaking their stated boundaries regarding the cash shop and it's not even up and running yet.

They're not better, just more convenient. I prefer kits that repair all in one go. What would you prefer, that they sell the same kits than in game and cut the crown price by 7? What difference dis it make? None...

They are no better and won't help you win.

If they are more convenient then they are better. Which is why even you say you prefer them. So not sure what you are trying to say there.

And you are missing my point about his point. It's not about rather they help you win or not - which as I said is a silly debate about semantics I don't want to engage.

It's about the company playing loose with the truth by saying the cash shop wouldn't sell items that are better than what you can buy from the in-game vendors.

Could you please link where they said because from what I remember of B2P presentation video, they did say potions would be slightly better or different than the ones found in game, but no better than the crafted ones. And I don't recall them mentioning repair kits.

And still, they aren't better :P

They stated in the ESO Live that announced the B2P model that items sold in cash shop would not be any better that what is available in game.

Rezzy64 · February 2015

I think a lot of you guys who are arguing that the Cash Shop Soul Gems and Repair Kits are not "Pay to Win" are actually ignoring some pretty important factors of what kind of items indicate a "Pay to Win" scenario.
The reason why a lot of us MMO players are so damn fearful of "Pay to Win" environments is because every MMO player out there who has ever dared to dabble into "Pay to Win" MMO's for more than a few months know that the cash shops start out cute and harmless. Like a "Venus Flytrap"... do you think Venus Flytraps would be successful at catching flies if they didn't have a way of disguising themselves as a sweet smelling flower that looks safe at a distance? I don't know... maybe that's a bad analogy... maybe a better analogy would be a comparison to the "Opium Flower".

I'm getting distracted by my terrible analogies.
Let's focus on the core mechanics of building a "Pay to Win" environment. A "Pay to Win" Environment is built on three main factors. The value of the dollar in the eyes of the player versus the value of the dollar inside of the game, that is factor one. Factor two is the value of time to the player inside and outside of the game. The third factor is the players attachment and interest within the game. Manipulating these factors within the game and within the players mind about how that player views the game is what establishes a "Pay to Win" environment.

Spoilers out of politeness because I'm such a windbag.

Factor 1:

Within Factor one, the value of the player's dollar, it is clear that right from the beginning the players of the game are paying for an experience, they are paying for a service of enjoyment. Their dollar is going to be used on some form of entertainment guaranteed, it is assumed the player has a proper home life and manages their expenses as an adult therefore any dollar that is aimed towards playing any kind of video game (let alone an MMORPG) is solely being spent towards an experience of enjoyment and thus within the mind of the player the dollar is as good as spent. Therefore if the dollar is spent in the players mind, it is up to the service within the game/entertainment to provide proof that the dollar belongs spent within one particular service or game rather than elsewhere. The service must prove to the player that their dollar, which is dedicated in the players mind towards fun, would be more useful within their game system.
This in a "Pay to Win" environment is manipulated by creating inconveniences that would otherwise be aided by a purchase. Most "F2P" games establish their inconveniences from the start of the game. Some are in fact already implemented into ESO (whether or not they will be established to encourage a "Pay to Win" environment is completely up to the developers, they hold the golden key to the P2W gate), inconveniences such as repairing gear, running out of item space, preventing death/reviving people, preventing access to certain areas without a certain quest completed or item (a few of the F2P games I played would prevent access to certain maps and bosses unless you had a specific rare item or complicated quest completed which eventually could be aided by a convenient purchase at a cash shop), and even trading inconveniences such as trying to work around the rules of "Bound Items".
When these inconveniences are made clear and apparent to the players in a game that is otherwise free or as others are adamantly stating, a buy once game, it becomes obvious that any loop hole past these inconveniences is a distinct improvement within a players efficiency level within the game no matter how miniscule the reward from it is. An advantage is an advantage, and no matter how small the advantage may be, it will still always put the player using that advantage slightly above others who would not. These inconveniences create an environment of potential for the dollar to be the end all be all solution to any minor form of challenge within the game. This in turn allows a player to speculate that within the game they have an alternate method of dealing with the games minor annoyances by spending money instead of dealing with the challenge because the challenge is annoying and wastes their in game time dealing with that inconvenience rather than their time in game being spent on more constructive options within the game. In the game, the dollar has more value being spent on the game in order for a player to enjoy the game in the most efficient way possible.
This begins the fixation and obsession of playing with money rather than without it because it's simply inconvenient.

Factor 2:

Once Factor one is established Factor two becomes the focus at hand. The value of the players time. The time spent within an MMORPG is a players investment towards the goal of acquiring their enjoyment and in game goals. A "Pay to Win" model understands that in order to acquire the coveted dollar from a players fingers, the game must find a way to make time into the game's most important resource. Time spent within the game becomes the determining factor of whether or not a character can reach its true potential and anything within that game can save time as a convenience is considered extremely valuable. Time wasted on an inconvenience is always going to be time that would be better spent of progressing within the game. This is where those innocent looking Soul Gems and Repair Kits grow their true fangs.
Yes, anybody here will blatantly tell you, "Oh those stupid cash shop items are easy to get around, I can just teleport to town to repair everything or buy soul gems." but lets think about this objectively. If you are in the middle of a pledge and your items break or you run out of soul gems, your whole party has to stop, check resources, ask the party who needs to go to town, wait on people repairing/etc, then wait for the party members to return, then establish that everyone is set to go, and then the pledge continues. In a really efficient party this takes something like... I don't know maybe 5-10 minutes if you are top tier players.
Well then after establishing that there is about a 5-10 minute down time for such inconveniences, now lets think about how long does an average battle last? If we evaluate trash mobs, most battles last less than 30 seconds, as for dealing with bosses those can often be an extended period of time with multiple attempts assuming your a stereotypical non-minmaxer player.
For every one minute you spent within the 5-10 minutes to repair and stock up on gems, you could have taken down two trash mobs and possibly even completed a single boss battle within the the full 5-10 minutes in which that occurred.
Normally we would ignore this issue because of a combination of things, for one we're just used to doing these 5-10 minute town runs because there has never been any other type of outlet for it. Another part of it is the fact that ESO as it is now we have no proper statistics or numbers within the game to measure proper DPS or to measure efficiency of skills over short periods of time, we're kept in the dark and therefore have no proper understanding of our levels of efficiency within combat.
However, when an outlet is implemented to bypass these inconveniences (even when it seems extremely miniscule of an advantage) such as the soul gems and repair kits within the cash shop, you're in turn saving a ton of precious time by spending maybe a single minute within game time to open up your menu, travel over to the cash shop window, and then purchasing your soul gems and repair kits only to immediately use them within that minute. That's a lot of time saved within the game while stuck in the middle of a pledge or dungeon.
It in turn becomes a direct advantage to players who are willing to spend their money for the minor advantage which in a scale of time (remember, major battles in ESO often only take a few seconds) is a huge improvement towards training and growing your character versus players who would other wise have to spend a good portion of their time going backwards and then are left behind in time and progress because they wont shell out the cash for the convenience.
This is direct impact on the growth and progression of your character but it's based on a time factor which starts as a minor gap but as it progresses with players who continuously pay, against those who don't, the gap becomes steeper as time goes on.
Soon when these conveniences become a staple in the game play you might find yourself in a situation where you are doing a trial with a very good group and when your equipment breaks down and you're useless in the upcoming battle because of it, your group may chuckle a bit and will inquire why you wont just hop over to the cash menu and purchase a one dollar repair kit. At its worse the group could kick you completely or prevent you from joining them in future trials because they know you wont spring for the extra dollar in order to save time which is a necessity in trials.
Time is the value that the in game dollar revolves around.

Factor 3:

Factor three completely revolves around the players attachment to the game which in my opinion is the most tragic part of the whole "Pay to Win" business style. Fixation is what it really is, or at least what it often becomes. The game provides goals and rewards that are highly sought after within the game. Having the best gear, the highest damage output, the largest collection of achievements and/or trophies, the highest ranking, the most money, the best reputation, the largest guild. All of these things can be altered in some way to revolve around how much money someone is willing to spend within the game. Spend a lot of money and you will come out on top in almost all of these goals, obviously it has to do a lot with the progression within the cash shop and its money dependency, which means this factor of the "Pay to Win" system is often what appears last on the route. Now it's obvious that anyone can attempt to accomplish any of these goals by putting forth an extreme amount of effort, whether they can be accomplished could possibly be completely oriented with what kind of a player you are and your sense of dedication and/or skill within the game. However we have our collection of credit card cowboys who can meet your average skilled player who's possibly spent ten times the amount of time to learn the game and master their character's timing and skills within most situations. This ends up becoming that money adding power is approximately equal to a player who has a lack of power due to not spending money but equalizes with the heavy spender due to skill in the game. So how is a player who's skill overcomes a heavy spender expected to pronounce his true abilities? ...Well... if anyone can spend money within the cash shop for raw power or for a convenience that is beneficial to anyone who is willing to shell out for it, then wouldn't that mean that the skilled player would only have to spend the money in order to gain the same edge as the heavy player? This would mean that once both customers are heavy spenders, the skilled player comes out on top due to pure skill now that he is on par in power compared to the player who only spends money.
This then becomes a dependency based system where skill within the game can only be truly proven once all available outlets for power have been fully exhausted by all types of players. The players without skill continuously spend on power and conveniences along with each addition to the cash shop in hopes that one day he will finally buy his way past the skill level of other players, and on the opposite side we have the skilled player who will always be the top dog of the game's strategy and play style... so long as he can continuously buy the advantages and conveniences within the cash shop in order to stay on top of the credit card cowboys.
Dependency within the cash shop system.

"Pay to Win" MMO's are a true threat to all people who involve themselves in them, and nobody is ever completely immune to their temptations. I can't even tell you guys how many times I had told myself in the past that I would not pay any more real money towards these type of systems and yet still in the past "Free to Play" games I participated in still managed to milk quite a bit of cash from me. It happens and you can play a game for years before you even begin to fall down such a slippery slope, but it does happen, at least once to almost everyone who takes part.

I would like to state very clearly, I'm not making an assumption that any of this is going to happen to ESO. What I wrote is not my preferred expectation of ESO's direction, and I am in no way advocating that everybody needs to run for the hills and abandon ESO. What I am advocating is awareness to our situation. A cash shop is a very common tell tale sign that a game is headed towards a "Pay to Win" business style. It's not fact that ESO will be "Pay to Win" and much more time and development is required before we can be absolutely positive that ESO is headed towards the dark side. All I'm trying to get across to people is, everything we've seen so far with the cash shop's implementation is that our current path within the game is about to get quite rough no matter what direction the developers choose to take this game. Keep in mind also, there is not a single cash shop oriented MMO out currently that is not "Pay to Win" oriented.
My truest wish at the moment is that ESO will be the first ever MMO with a cash shop system that is not a "Pay to Win" style... no matter how unlikely it may sound to anyone including myself.

Naivefanboi · February 2015

lol and this is just the start. granted its not p2w. but this is gonna be AoC all over again. even armor set design are similar

Mikoto · February 2015

Rezzy64 wrote: »

I think a lot of you guys who are arguing that the Cash Shop Soul Gems and Repair Kits are not "Pay to Win" are actually ignoring some pretty important factors of what kind of items indicate a "Pay to Win" scenario.
The reason why a lot of us MMO players are so damn fearful of "Pay to Win" environments is because every MMO player out there who has ever dared to dabble into "Pay to Win" MMO's for more than a few months know that the cash shops start out cute and harmless. Like a "Venus Flytrap"... do you think Venus Flytraps would be successful at catching flies if they didn't have a way of disguising themselves as a sweet smelling flower that looks safe at a distance? I don't know... maybe that's a bad analogy... maybe a better analogy would be a comparison to the "Opium Flower".

I'm getting distracted by my terrible analogies.
Let's focus on the core mechanics of building a "Pay to Win" environment. A "Pay to Win" Environment is built on three main factors. The value of the dollar in the eyes of the player versus the value of the dollar inside of the game, that is factor one. Factor two is the value of time to the player inside and outside of the game. The third factor is the players attachment and interest within the game. Manipulating these factors within the game and within the players mind about how that player views the game is what establishes a "Pay to Win" environment.

Spoilers out of politeness because I'm such a windbag.

Factor 1:
Within Factor one, the value of the player's dollar, it is clear that right from the beginning the players of the game are paying for an experience, they are paying for a service of enjoyment. Their dollar is going to be used on some form of entertainment guaranteed, it is assumed the player has a proper home life and manages their expenses as an adult therefore any dollar that is aimed towards playing any kind of video game (let alone an MMORPG) is solely being spent towards an experience of enjoyment and thus within the mind of the player the dollar is as good as spent. Therefore if the dollar is spent in the players mind, it is up to the service within the game/entertainment to provide proof that the dollar belongs spent within one particular service or game rather than elsewhere. The service must prove to the player that their dollar, which is dedicated in the players mind towards fun, would be more useful within their game system.
This in a "Pay to Win" environment is manipulated by creating inconveniences that would otherwise be aided by a purchase. Most "F2P" games establish their inconveniences from the start of the game. Some are in fact already implemented into ESO (whether or not they will be established to encourage a "Pay to Win" environment is completely up to the developers, they hold the golden key to the P2W gate), inconveniences such as repairing gear, running out of item space, preventing death/reviving people, preventing access to certain areas without a certain quest completed or item (a few of the F2P games I played would prevent access to certain maps and bosses unless you had a specific rare item or complicated quest completed which eventually could be aided by a convenient purchase at a cash shop), and even trading inconveniences such as trying to work around the rules of "Bound Items".
When these inconveniences are made clear and apparent to the players in a game that is otherwise free or as others are adamantly stating, a buy once game, it becomes obvious that any loop hole past these inconveniences is a distinct improvement within a players efficiency level within the game no matter how miniscule the reward from it is. An advantage is an advantage, and no matter how small the advantage may be, it will still always put the player using that advantage slightly above others who would not. These inconveniences create an environment of potential for the dollar to be the end all be all solution to any minor form of challenge within the game. This in turn allows a player to speculate that within the game they have an alternate method of dealing with the games minor annoyances by spending money instead of dealing with the challenge because the challenge is annoying and wastes their in game time dealing with that inconvenience rather than their time in game being spent on more constructive options within the game. In the game, the dollar has more value being spent on the game in order for a player to enjoy the game in the most efficient way possible.
This begins the fixation and obsession of playing with money rather than without it because it's simply inconvenient.

Factor 2:
Once Factor one is established Factor two becomes the focus at hand. The value of the players time. The time spent within an MMORPG is a players investment towards the goal of acquiring their enjoyment and in game goals. A "Pay to Win" model understands that in order to acquire the coveted dollar from a players fingers, the game must find a way to make time into the game's most important resource. Time spent within the game becomes the determining factor of whether or not a character can reach its true potential and anything within that game can save time as a convenience is considered extremely valuable. Time wasted on an inconvenience is always going to be time that would be better spent of progressing within the game. This is where those innocent looking Soul Gems and Repair Kits grow their true fangs.
Yes, anybody here will blatantly tell you, "Oh those stupid cash shop items are easy to get around, I can just teleport to town to repair everything or buy soul gems." but lets think about this objectively. If you are in the middle of a pledge and your items break or you run out of soul gems, your whole party has to stop, check resources, ask the party who needs to go to town, wait on people repairing/etc, then wait for the party members to return, then establish that everyone is set to go, and then the pledge continues. In a really efficient party this takes something like... I don't know maybe 5-10 minutes if you are top tier players.
Well then after establishing that there is about a 5-10 minute down time for such inconveniences, now lets think about how long does an average battle last? If we evaluate trash mobs, most battles last less than 30 seconds, as for dealing with bosses those can often be an extended period of time with multiple attempts assuming your a stereotypical non-minmaxer player.
For every one minute you spent within the 5-10 minutes to repair and stock up on gems, you could have taken down two trash mobs and possibly even completed a single boss battle within the the full 5-10 minutes in which that occurred.
Normally we would ignore this issue because of a combination of things, for one we're just used to doing these 5-10 minute town runs because there has never been any other type of outlet for it. Another part of it is the fact that ESO as it is now we have no proper statistics or numbers within the game to measure proper DPS or to measure efficiency of skills over short periods of time, we're kept in the dark and therefore have no proper understanding of our levels of efficiency within combat.
However, when an outlet is implemented to bypass these inconveniences (even when it seems extremely miniscule of an advantage) such as the soul gems and repair kits within the cash shop, you're in turn saving a ton of precious time by spending maybe a single minute within game time to open up your menu, travel over to the cash shop window, and then purchasing your soul gems and repair kits only to immediately use them within that minute. That's a lot of time saved within the game while stuck in the middle of a pledge or dungeon.
It in turn becomes a direct advantage to players who are willing to spend their money for the minor advantage which in a scale of time (remember, major battles in ESO often only take a few seconds) is a huge improvement towards training and growing your character versus players who would other wise have to spend a good portion of their time going backwards and then are left behind in time and progress because they wont shell out the cash for the convenience.
This is direct impact on the growth and progression of your character but it's based on a time factor which starts as a minor gap but as it progresses with players who continuously pay, against those who don't, the gap becomes steeper as time goes on.
Soon when these conveniences become a staple in the game play you might find yourself in a situation where you are doing a trial with a very good group and when your equipment breaks down and you're useless in the upcoming battle because of it, your group may chuckle a bit and will inquire why you wont just hop over to the cash menu and purchase a one dollar repair kit. At its worse the group could kick you completely or prevent you from joining them in future trials because they know you wont spring for the extra dollar in order to save time which is a necessity in trials.
Time is the value that the in game dollar revolves around.

Factor 3:
Factor three completely revolves around the players attachment to the game which in my opinion is the most tragic part of the whole "Pay to Win" business style. Fixation is what it really is, or at least what it often becomes. The game provides goals and rewards that are highly sought after within the game. Having the best gear, the highest damage output, the largest collection of achievements and/or trophies, the highest ranking, the most money, the best reputation, the largest guild. All of these things can be altered in some way to revolve around how much money someone is willing to spend within the game. Spend a lot of money and you will come out on top in almost all of these goals, obviously it has to do a lot with the progression within the cash shop and its money dependency, which means this factor of the "Pay to Win" system is often what appears last on the route. Now it's obvious that anyone can attempt to accomplish any of these goals by putting forth an extreme amount of effort, whether they can be accomplished could possibly be completely oriented with what kind of a player you are and your sense of dedication and/or skill within the game. However we have our collection of credit card cowboys who can meet your average skilled player who's possibly spent ten times the amount of time to learn the game and master their character's timing and skills within most situations. This ends up becoming that money adding power is approximately equal to a player who has a lack of power due to not spending money but equalizes with the heavy spender due to skill in the game. So how is a player who's skill overcomes a heavy spender expected to pronounce his true abilities? ...Well... if anyone can spend money within the cash shop for raw power or for a convenience that is beneficial to anyone who is willing to shell out for it, then wouldn't that mean that the skilled player would only have to spend the money in order to gain the same edge as the heavy player? This would mean that once both customers are heavy spenders, the skilled player comes out on top due to pure skill now that he is on par in power compared to the player who only spends money.
This then becomes a dependency based system where skill within the game can only be truly proven once all available outlets for power have been fully exhausted by all types of players. The players without skill continuously spend on power and conveniences along with each addition to the cash shop in hopes that one day he will finally buy his way past the skill level of other players, and on the opposite side we have the skilled player who will always be the top dog of the game's strategy and play style... so long as he can continuously buy the advantages and conveniences within the cash shop in order to stay on top of the credit card cowboys.
Dependency within the cash shop system.

"Pay to Win" MMO's are a true threat to all people who involve themselves in them, and nobody is ever completely immune to their temptations. I can't even tell you guys how many times I had told myself in the past that I would not pay any more real money towards these type of systems and yet still in the past "Free to Play" games I participated in still managed to milk quite a bit of cash from me. It happens and you can play a game for years before you even begin to fall down such a slippery slope, but it does happen, at least once to almost everyone who takes part.

I would like to state very clearly, I'm not making an assumption that any of this is going to happen to ESO. What I wrote is not my preferred expectation of ESO's direction, and I am in no way advocating that everybody needs to run for the hills and abandon ESO. What I am advocating is awareness to our situation. A cash shop is a very common tell tale sign that a game is headed towards a "Pay to Win" business style. It's not fact that ESO will be "Pay to Win" and much more time and development is required before we can be absolutely positive that ESO is headed towards the dark side. All I'm trying to get across to people is, everything we've seen so far with the cash shop's implementation is that our current path within the game is about to get quite rough no matter what direction the developers choose to take this game. Keep in mind also, there is not a single cash shop oriented MMO out currently that is not "Pay to Win" oriented.
My truest wish at the moment is that ESO will be the first ever MMO with a cash shop system that is not a "Pay to Win" style... no matter how unlikely it may sound to anyone including myself.

Have you ever played tsw? Serious question.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2015

Its not p2w yet, just have to see how things are 6 months till a year from when the store launches.

Rezzy64 · February 2015

Mikoto wrote: »

Have you ever played tsw? Serious question.

No, I've never played "The Secret World".
How is it?

nerevarine1138 · February 2015

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

How is it P2W?

oh wait, it's not...

When did they lie? Oh wait, they didn't... They said from get go that potions from the store won't be better than crafted potions but slightly better than potions bought ingame. Info from the B2P announcement video. Get your facts right before vomiting garbage on the forums please

They clearly said items in the crown shop would not be an better than items sold in game by vendors but repair kits That repair every broken item in your inventory are far superior to kits that only repair one item within a certain level range.

OK, but it's like a couple of hundred gold to repair to gear, if you do it sensibly, so not much of an advantage.

That's beside the point. It's "only" couple of hundred now. Better is better no matter how small the difference is and according to their own words, it's should not be better. And cash shop game hasn't even started yet. Remember, the most scary part of cash shops is the possibility to slowly creep towards more difference between in game and cash shop. And excuses like "it's only" do not help in preventing this from happening.
Any kind of difference or advantage can be excused with "if you do it sensibly". Do you really want to make excuses for someone who has already proven does not stick to their own promises? I guess you do, as you probably see it as helping. I am just wondering who or what you are helping with that?

Still don't see the point about repair kits since... who the hell uses repair kits!?

TP in town, repair, TP back to instance. And honestly since you can faceroll any instance these days, who needs to repair anyway?

A THOUSAND TIMES THIS

I'll try to explain his point for you.

He was saying that the developers broke their promise because the repair kits in the cash shop are better than the repair kits you buy from the vendors.

Rather the items help you win or not is a useless semantic debate about what the word win means. The more significant point is that they appear to already be breaking their stated boundaries regarding the cash shop and it's not even up and running yet.

They're not better, just more convenient. I prefer kits that repair all in one go. What would you prefer, that they sell the same kits than in game and cut the crown price by 7? What difference dis it make? None...

They are no better and won't help you win.

If they are more convenient then they are better. Which is why even you say you prefer them. So not sure what you are trying to say there.

And you are missing my point about his point. It's not about rather they help you win or not - which as I said is a silly debate about semantics I don't want to engage.

It's about the company playing loose with the truth by saying the cash shop wouldn't sell items that are better than what you can buy from the in-game vendors.

Could you please link where they said because from what I remember of B2P presentation video, they did say potions would be slightly better or different than the ones found in game, but no better than the crafted ones. And I don't recall them mentioning repair kits.

And still, they aren't better :P

They stated in the ESO Live that announced the B2P model that items sold in cash shop would not be any better that what is available in game.

And they aren't. Any alchemist can create (or sell you) a potion that far exceeds the utility of what's available on the Crown Store.

Seriously, are people actually using vendor potions?

And more importantly, since when did health/magicka/stamina potions actually grant anyone an advantage. If you're only restoring one of those, you'd better be getting a boost to crit and power with it.

Iago · February 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

How is it P2W?

oh wait, it's not...

When did they lie? Oh wait, they didn't... They said from get go that potions from the store won't be better than crafted potions but slightly better than potions bought ingame. Info from the B2P announcement video. Get your facts right before vomiting garbage on the forums please

They clearly said items in the crown shop would not be an better than items sold in game by vendors but repair kits That repair every broken item in your inventory are far superior to kits that only repair one item within a certain level range.

OK, but it's like a couple of hundred gold to repair to gear, if you do it sensibly, so not much of an advantage.

That's beside the point. It's "only" couple of hundred now. Better is better no matter how small the difference is and according to their own words, it's should not be better. And cash shop game hasn't even started yet. Remember, the most scary part of cash shops is the possibility to slowly creep towards more difference between in game and cash shop. And excuses like "it's only" do not help in preventing this from happening.
Any kind of difference or advantage can be excused with "if you do it sensibly". Do you really want to make excuses for someone who has already proven does not stick to their own promises? I guess you do, as you probably see it as helping. I am just wondering who or what you are helping with that?

Still don't see the point about repair kits since... who the hell uses repair kits!?

TP in town, repair, TP back to instance. And honestly since you can faceroll any instance these days, who needs to repair anyway?

A THOUSAND TIMES THIS

I'll try to explain his point for you.

He was saying that the developers broke their promise because the repair kits in the cash shop are better than the repair kits you buy from the vendors.

Rather the items help you win or not is a useless semantic debate about what the word win means. The more significant point is that they appear to already be breaking their stated boundaries regarding the cash shop and it's not even up and running yet.

They're not better, just more convenient. I prefer kits that repair all in one go. What would you prefer, that they sell the same kits than in game and cut the crown price by 7? What difference dis it make? None...

They are no better and won't help you win.

If they are more convenient then they are better. Which is why even you say you prefer them. So not sure what you are trying to say there.

And you are missing my point about his point. It's not about rather they help you win or not - which as I said is a silly debate about semantics I don't want to engage.

It's about the company playing loose with the truth by saying the cash shop wouldn't sell items that are better than what you can buy from the in-game vendors.

Could you please link where they said because from what I remember of B2P presentation video, they did say potions would be slightly better or different than the ones found in game, but no better than the crafted ones. And I don't recall them mentioning repair kits.

And still, they aren't better :P

They stated in the ESO Live that announced the B2P model that items sold in cash shop would not be any better that what is available in game.

And they aren't. Any alchemist can create (or sell you) a potion that far exceeds the utility of what's available on the Crown Store.

Seriously, are people actually using vendor potions?

And more importantly, since when did health/magicka/stamina potions actually grant anyone an advantage. If you're only restoring one of those, you'd better be getting a boost to crit and power with it.

Yes people do use vendor potions.

and honestly I could really care less about the health magic and stamina potions but the repair kits in the soul gems there a problem for me.

as they are definitely superior to anything you can find or buy in game currently. and remember they said they would never have anything in the crown store that is superior to what you can get in game.

and if this isn't enough for you just wait until the upgrade materials and champion points start getting sold in the crown store.

they're already pushing the boundaries of what they said they would put in there and in about another year it'll probably be a free-for-all anything goes.

starkerealm · February 2015

Iago wrote: »

and honestly I could really care less about the health magic and stamina potions but the repair kits in the soul gems there a problem for me.

as they are definitely superior to anything you can find or buy in game currently. and remember they said they would never have anything in the crown store that is superior to what you can get in game.

...so, you're saying you can't get grand soul gems in game right now... right.

As to the repair kits... eh *shrugs*

Each crown store repair kit is roughly the equivalent of 1.8k worth of normal repair kits. Would it bother you less if instead of 10 bundled kits that apply at once, you had 70 kits for the same price?

I mean, I'm obviously not the market for these things, because my crafting writs are just giving me a slowly accumulating pile of repair kits I can't be bothered to trash.. so... *shrugs*

Iago wrote: »

and if this isn't enough for you just wait until the upgrade materials and champion points start getting sold in the crown store.

And this prescience is based on... what, exactly?

Iago wrote: »

they're already pushing the boundaries of what they said they would put in there and in about another year it'll probably be a free-for-all anything goes.

Oh, nothing. Okay, just checking.

Iago · February 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

and honestly I could really care less about the health magic and stamina potions but the repair kits in the soul gems there a problem for me.

as they are definitely superior to anything you can find or buy in game currently. and remember they said they would never have anything in the crown store that is superior to what you can get in game.

...so, you're saying you can't get grand soul gems in game right now... right.

As to the repair kits... eh *shrugs*

Each crown store repair kit is roughly the equivalent of 1.8k worth of normal repair kits. Would it bother you less if instead of 10 bundled kits that apply at once, you had 70 kits for the same price?

I mean, I'm obviously not the market for these things, because my crafting writs are just giving me a slowly accumulating pile of repair kits I can't be bothered to trash.. so... *shrugs*

Iago wrote: »

and if this isn't enough for you just wait until the upgrade materials and champion points start getting sold in the crown store.

And this prescience is based on... what, exactly?

Iago wrote: »

they're already pushing the boundaries of what they said they would put in there and in about another year it'll probably be a free-for-all anything goes.

Oh, nothing. Okay, just checking.

no you can get grand soul gems in games in fact you can buy any level soul gem in game. but the lower level soul gems become useless when you outgrow them. and the soul gems in the crown shop you can't out level them.

and it's safe to assume those things will end up in the crown store because people will gladly pay for stuff like that because a lot of people will take whatever shortcut they can to get to the top of the dung heap.

Razzak · February 2015

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

How is it P2W?

oh wait, it's not...

When did they lie? Oh wait, they didn't... They said from get go that potions from the store won't be better than crafted potions but slightly better than potions bought ingame. Info from the B2P announcement video. Get your facts right before vomiting garbage on the forums please

They clearly said items in the crown shop would not be an better than items sold in game by vendors but repair kits That repair every broken item in your inventory are far superior to kits that only repair one item within a certain level range.

OK, but it's like a couple of hundred gold to repair to gear, if you do it sensibly, so not much of an advantage.

That's beside the point. It's "only" couple of hundred now. Better is better no matter how small the difference is and according to their own words, it's should not be better. And cash shop game hasn't even started yet. Remember, the most scary part of cash shops is the possibility to slowly creep towards more difference between in game and cash shop. And excuses like "it's only" do not help in preventing this from happening.
Any kind of difference or advantage can be excused with "if you do it sensibly". Do you really want to make excuses for someone who has already proven does not stick to their own promises? I guess you do, as you probably see it as helping. I am just wondering who or what you are helping with that?

The problem is that the difference between the two methods is insufficient to say that the new repair kits are pay to win.

In order for them to be Pay to win, they need to offer a clear and sufficient advantage! They don't do that, they offer a vague and slight advantage.

Now they might be the thin end of the wedge, and I can respect that arguement, but they are not yet Pay to Win.

And for who I am trying to help, well I am trying to point out the flaws in the arguement, so you can find the actual problems, and refocus upon them.

As I just said, if you want a problem it's not that they themselves are Pay to Win, but that they set the groundwork for items that are progressively closer to such.

And that's the main problem.
As you can see in my previous post, I didn't say repair kits are P2W. I don't even mention that word as it's something that's very subjective, which is evident in you using words "clear and sufficient advantage". You are correct in saying that, but what is "sufficient" could be different for every single player in ESO.
To me, it's the possibility of being on a downhill slope that is present with such practice. It starts as as very vague and can develops into something more than that. Imagine cash shop items stay at the same level of "power", but in-game items become either slower of harder to craft, buy, accumulate. They don't lose their level compared to cash shop items, they just become more scarce. It's very similar to them having less power.

Imagine potions. Crafted potions are really good for every 5th level while cash shop ones scale with you. So, in a way, while not being more powerful then in-game ones, they are more useful for certain levels.
I haven't reached end game, so I don't know, if a crafter can even craft V14 potions. I imagine cash shop potions will scale to V14. Anyone already tested if this is true, on PTS?

Kragorn · February 2015

Iago wrote: »

ArcanusMagus wrote: »

Did you have to quote that entire post like that?

Since you ask I did indeed need to quote he entire post

If you felt the need to do so because you wanted to prove your point .. you failed, almost totally to do so.

Iago · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

ArcanusMagus wrote: »

Did you have to quote that entire post like that?

Since you ask I did indeed need to quote he entire post

If you felt the need to do so because you wanted to prove your point .. you failed, almost totally to do so.

I really don't think it is a failure. as it stands there's plenty of people in here that agree with me.

Welka · February 2015

Iago, the cash shop needs to bring some value items. Costumes and mounts are fine for a time, and not everybody are interested in these.

And though I insist on saying that consumables in the cash shop aren't better than the ones in game, they somehow need to be more convenient than the ones ingame otherwise there would be no incentive to buy them.

Also, they need to be useable at any level, otherwise you wouldn't spend any money on stuff that would become obsolete after 2 levels.
The way the cash shop is now is fine. Let's preserve our energy for when real P2W items are introduced to the store

Iago · February 2015

Welka wrote: »

Iago, the cash shop needs to bring some value items. Costumes and mounts are fine for a time, and not everybody are interested in these.

And though I insist on saying that consumables in the cash shop aren't better than the ones in game, they somehow need to be more convenient than the ones ingame otherwise there would be no incentive to buy them.

Also, they need to be useable at any level, otherwise you wouldn't spend any money on stuff that would become obsolete after 2 levels.
The way the cash shop is now is fine. Let's preserve our energy for when real P2W items are introduced to the store

oh don't you understand I get that and that means anything people will pay for has a probability of ending up in the shop eventually.

Razzak · February 2015

Welka wrote: »

Iago, the cash shop needs to bring some value items. Costumes and mounts are fine for a time, and not everybody are interested in these.

And though I insist on saying that consumables in the cash shop aren't better than the ones in game, they somehow need to be more convenient than the ones ingame otherwise there would be no incentive to buy them.

Also, they need to be useable at any level, otherwise you wouldn't spend any money on stuff that would become obsolete after 2 levels.
The way the cash shop is now is fine. Let's preserve our energy for when real P2W items are introduced to the store

That means in-game and especially crafted ones, will lose it's value. Why would that be good for the game? Is crown shop the most important thing now? Does it need to be?

Mathius_Mordred · February 2015

Iago wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

How is it P2W?

oh wait, it's not...

When did they lie? Oh wait, they didn't... They said from get go that potions from the store won't be better than crafted potions but slightly better than potions bought ingame. Info from the B2P announcement video. Get your facts right before vomiting garbage on the forums please

They clearly said items in the crown shop would not be an better than items sold in game by vendors but repair kits That repair every broken item in your inventory are far superior to kits that only repair one item within a certain level range.

You mean I can actually get a repair kit that scales with me instead of losing it's usefulness while I level?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?

What? I can have potions that do the same thing and don't become vendor-trash after 3 levels??!?!?!

HOW DARE THEY!

Seriously guys, you're nit-picking. Staaaaaaahp.

It has nothing to do with the repair kit scaling, it has everything to do with the repair kit will repair any and all items in your inventory when used.

So will the chef!

Iago · February 2015

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

How is it P2W?

oh wait, it's not...

When did they lie? Oh wait, they didn't... They said from get go that potions from the store won't be better than crafted potions but slightly better than potions bought ingame. Info from the B2P announcement video. Get your facts right before vomiting garbage on the forums please

They clearly said items in the crown shop would not be an better than items sold in game by vendors but repair kits That repair every broken item in your inventory are far superior to kits that only repair one item within a certain level range.

You mean I can actually get a repair kit that scales with me instead of losing it's usefulness while I level?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?

What? I can have potions that do the same thing and don't become vendor-trash after 3 levels??!?!?!

HOW DARE THEY!

Seriously guys, you're nit-picking. Staaaaaaahp.

It has nothing to do with the repair kit scaling, it has everything to do with the repair kit will repair any and all items in your inventory when used.

So will the chef!

that's true but when was the last time you ran into a chef or any other merchant inside of a trial run or a dungeon?

Welka · February 2015

Crown shop potions are nowhere near as good as crafted one. Miles away.
The only reason I would be buyin them, taking in to account my play style, is if they nerf drastically the drop of these basic potions in dungeons.

I used crafted ones for bosses and big packs, mostly for trials and arenas.
For dailies, you don't need much of a burst, so I just used a basic one now and then.

@Iago, there I agree and I think 99% percent of forumers here would. These items are a gateway to P2W. Unfortunately, it seems inevitable as long as P2W is successful. When they do come to crown store, the only way to fight these objects is not to buy them. But we both know some will always want to get that super duper armor or weapons now, and not after days of dungeon farming.

But as it is now, no P2W. 6 months or a year from now? Time will tell.
And you make a very good point at voicing your concerns for the future. ZOS will read us, they will understand us, they will reassure us but in the end they will do what's good for their business and not for the gamers. And trust I want the future to prove me wrong because I love that game

Mathius_Mordred · February 2015

Iago wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

How is it P2W?

oh wait, it's not...

When did they lie? Oh wait, they didn't... They said from get go that potions from the store won't be better than crafted potions but slightly better than potions bought ingame. Info from the B2P announcement video. Get your facts right before vomiting garbage on the forums please

They clearly said items in the crown shop would not be an better than items sold in game by vendors but repair kits That repair every broken item in your inventory are far superior to kits that only repair one item within a certain level range.

You mean I can actually get a repair kit that scales with me instead of losing it's usefulness while I level?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?

What? I can have potions that do the same thing and don't become vendor-trash after 3 levels??!?!?!

HOW DARE THEY!

Seriously guys, you're nit-picking. Staaaaaaahp.

It has nothing to do with the repair kit scaling, it has everything to do with the repair kit will repair any and all items in your inventory when used.

So will the chef!

that's true but when was the last time you ran into a chef or any other merchant inside of a trial run or a dungeon?

I haven't, but then again I've never felt the need to repair my gear inside a dungeon either, in fact I hardly ever repair gear when levelling anyway and have so much crafting material I just make a new set if it's badly damaged. I really cannot support your idea that a levelless repair kit or potion is P2W.

The problem with your post is that it circulates misinformation to skimmers (people that just read headlines) which gives an erroneous impression and helps spread rumours. Quite simply there is nothing whatsoever in that list that is in anyway P2W.

P2W means an item or items that give an immediate and clear advantage over other players without that item and obtained by using real world cash or the conversion of real world cash into unique game world currency.

I see nothing in there that gives an immediate and clear advantage, sorry.

AlexDougherty · February 2015

Razzak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

How is it P2W?

oh wait, it's not...

When did they lie? Oh wait, they didn't... They said from get go that potions from the store won't be better than crafted potions but slightly better than potions bought ingame. Info from the B2P announcement video. Get your facts right before vomiting garbage on the forums please

They clearly said items in the crown shop would not be an better than items sold in game by vendors but repair kits That repair every broken item in your inventory are far superior to kits that only repair one item within a certain level range.

OK, but it's like a couple of hundred gold to repair to gear, if you do it sensibly, so not much of an advantage.

That's beside the point. It's "only" couple of hundred now. Better is better no matter how small the difference is and according to their own words, it's should not be better. And cash shop game hasn't even started yet. Remember, the most scary part of cash shops is the possibility to slowly creep towards more difference between in game and cash shop. And excuses like "it's only" do not help in preventing this from happening.
Any kind of difference or advantage can be excused with "if you do it sensibly". Do you really want to make excuses for someone who has already proven does not stick to their own promises? I guess you do, as you probably see it as helping. I am just wondering who or what you are helping with that?

The problem is that the difference between the two methods is insufficient to say that the new repair kits are pay to win.

In order for them to be Pay to win, they need to offer a clear and sufficient advantage! They don't do that, they offer a vague and slight advantage.

Now they might be the thin end of the wedge, and I can respect that arguement, but they are not yet Pay to Win.

And for who I am trying to help, well I am trying to point out the flaws in the arguement, so you can find the actual problems, and refocus upon them.

As I just said, if you want a problem it's not that they themselves are Pay to Win, but that they set the groundwork for items that are progressively closer to such.

And that's the main problem.
As you can see in my previous post, I didn't say repair kits are P2W. I don't even mention that word as it's something that's very subjective, which is evident in you using words "clear and sufficient advantage". You are correct in saying that, but what is "sufficient" could be different for every single player in ESO.
To me, it's the possibility of being on a downhill slope that is present with such practice. It starts as as very vague and can develops into something more than that. Imagine cash shop items stay at the same level of "power", but in-game items become either slower of harder to craft, buy, accumulate. They don't lose their level compared to cash shop items, they just become more scarce. It's very similar to them having less power.

Imagine potions. Crafted potions are really good for every 5th level while cash shop ones scale with you. So, in a way, while not being more powerful then in-game ones, they are more useful for certain levels.
I haven't reached end game, so I don't know, if a crafter can even craft V14 potions. I imagine cash shop potions will scale to V14. Anyone already tested if this is true, on PTS?

Yes, as I said they lay the groundwork, which means we have to keep an eye open for them getting progressively closer to Pay 2 Win. And with the potions you are spot on, they may scale to the point they are better than crafted potions, will have to ask around.

The key thing is not to start saying Pay 2 Win too early or too often, we need to wait until they are nearly there then protest. We definately don't want Pay 2 Win in our game.

Edit~ Just got this quote about Crown store potions, can be argued either way, but since we can buy crafted potions from guild stores (or craft them) I'm going to say not P2W

Knootewoot wrote: »

Those potions can be better then the ones found/bought ingame. But they are not better then potions created by a lvl 50 alchemist.

So no.

Mathius_Mordred · February 2015

AlexDougherty wrote: »

The key thing is not to start saying Pay 2 Win too early or too often, we need to wait until they are nearly there then protest. We definately don't want Pay 2 Win in our game.

Absolutely, this is the key point here. Crying wolf will achieve nothing and when P2W does arrive then who the hell is going to take notice. Stop panicking and keep a careful eye on the situation, when something is definitely P2W then you can be sure we'll all be making as much fuss as possible!

RazielSR · February 2015

By now,the potions and repair kits are p2w. Of course there will be more p2w items in the future.

Smaxx · February 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Champions and Star Trek Online did that. Well, Star Trek gated all their crafting through a grind currency, and then, much latter, started selling rare crafting mats through lockboxes.

Champions didn't mess with crafting originally, but they later overhauled it, and stuck the... catalysts? I think, into the store. Want to improve an upgrade to the highest tier, it's something like 30 bucks just to go from 8 to 9.

And both games have been ruined by Perfect World Entertainment, which is an Asian company being focused on free to play games with p2w schemes.

As long as ESO isn't bought by them I wouldn't worry about such absurd stuff.

Nihil · February 2015

.... what am I reading? Repair kits better then what is in game? The repair kits do the same as the reapir kit / vendors currently do, the only difference is they are more convenient which they said they would be putting convenience items in, so no they didn't lie at all (so far). Potions / soul gems all can be gotten in game with little to no money (actually repair kits can too), I have over 150 soul gems that I haven't spent any time nor money going out to get just sitting around obtaining them as I play the game...

Yes Cash shop is a slippery slope, and no matter what they do they run the risk of becoming P2W. But the problem is that everyones definition is different on what pay 2 win actually is. Cutting off any hypothetical time to some is considered pay to win, while others look at it as if it isn't better then what I can get it isn't pay 2 win. We know skill lines will come out that will probably be behind DLC, will this be considered pay 2 win? It is DLC after all and there needs to be something good in it to get us to buy it (imagine SO being DLC). We can also be pretty sure that they would put exp boosters in, as they are adding it to plus, so what would be P2W there? Would having a 10 % (same as plus) exp boost that doesn't stack with plus be P2W or would that just be giving players the option of not buying plus (thus spending less money) to get one of the aspects that they wanted.

This is a game company, and now that they switched to the B2P method they need to have a way to make money, the trick for them to balance is where to draw the line. If they pass the line for to many players they will have a mass exodus of players and basically gut their own game, if they don't put anything in that makes us want to buy the DLC (added area with new dungeon that gives us all the same things we already get, who would buy that raise your hands!) they will run their own game into the ground and we will then be without the game.

So as a supporter of this game, you who are calling the repair kits pay to win, what would you be willing to have them have in the shop that would entice you to buy it, that would be able to support future development of the game? What could they possible add to keep players coming back to the store, but won't be over the top?

edited to fix some grammer, english is hard at 5 am in the morning >.>

Razzak · February 2015

Nihil wrote: »

.... what am I reading? Repair kits better then what is in game? The repair kits do the same as the reapir kit / vendors currently do, the only difference is they are more convenient which they said they would be putting convenience items in, so no they didn't lie at all (so far). Potions / soul gems all can be gotten in game with little to no money (actually repair kits can too), I have over 150 soul gems that I haven't spent any time nor money going out to get just sitting around obtaining them as I play the game...

Yes Cash shop is a slippery slope, and no matter what they do they run the risk of becoming P2W. But the problem is that everyones definition is different on what pay 2 win actually is. Cutting off any hypothetical time to some is considered pay to win, while others look at it as if it isn't better then what I can get it isn't pay 2 win. We know skill lines will come out that will probably be behind DLC, will this be considered pay 2 win? It is DLC after all and there needs to be something good in it to get us to buy it (imagine SO being DLC). We can also be pretty sure that they would put exp boosters in, as they are adding it to plus, so what would be P2W there? Would having a 10 % (same as plus) exp boost that doesn't stack with plus be P2W or would that just be giving players the option of not buying plus (thus spending less money) to get one of the aspects that they wanted.

This is a game company, and now that they switched to the B2P method they need to have a way to make money, the trick for them to balance is where to draw the line. If they pass the line for to many players they will have a mass exodus of players and basically gut their own game, if they don't put anything in that makes us want to buy the DLC (added area with new dungeon that gives us all the same things we already get, who would buy that raise your hands!) they will run their own game into the ground and we will then be without the game.

So as a supporter of this game, you who are calling the repair kits pay to win, what would you be willing to have them have in the shop that would entice you to buy it, that would be able to support future development of the game? What could they possible add to keep players coming back to the store, but won't be over the top?

edited to fix some grammer, english is hard at 5 am in the morning >.>

I don't consider current shop to be P2W, but I do see it as being on an edge of a slippery slope.
I am a supporter, but what does that mean? I would like to see cash shop offering only cosmetics and vanity items. Their is enough Kardashian wannabes among current and future player base to give them the funds they need by offerin the options to change their looks and the likes with what cash shop could offer.
I think that anything that would compete or have similar counterparts in game, should not be a part of cash shop. I would like them to allow in game economy and crafting to be the only supplier of said things.
I do support them getting funds to further develop the game, but as I see it, they can do it with subs, DLCs and cosmetics. Appealing to player's vanity is one of the biggest sellers today. So let them focus on that, when it comes to cash shop. That way, more devs will have time to work on fixes, DLCs and other updates and ESO would not be or get so close to the F2P slope.

BlueIllyrian · February 2015

Oh it's not p2w yet, once the store gets to run smoothly with fluff then p2w starts. Foundations are here though and no cash store ever avoided p2w.

GTech_1 · February 2015

This is real full story on the Crown Store, from Feb 2nd, 2015
Here's the link: youtu.be/JzrWS8_VPXo