Vampires - It's not enough

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2015

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

As i stated before, this is not about making vamps OP or about PVP so don't get all whiny and scared, this is about making the vampire more fun to play and offer more variety

Unfortunately when ever you discuss new abilities , you throw the flair in the PVP communities cave . We have to crawl out an take a look now ...

The Pvp community has very good reason for feeling Vampire is overpowered. Fire damage is laughable toward vampires, bat swarm is up nigh 100% of the time. Mist form allows people to drag your scroll across the map at ridiculous speeds. I have a few vampires as well, but I also recognize there is a balancing issue that does need resolving. I'd also like to mention that Fighters Guild abilities really don't stack up compared to Vampire abilities and it actually costs more to use. The ultimate gives a small bonus to weapon damage while slotted, but the actual damage this ultimate does is neglible (I've never seen it even dent a Vampires health). The Turn Undead morph of Circle of Protection has a fear effect so weak I think I've only seen it actually move a vampire two steps away once. Normally they ignore it. If this ability torched a vampire who stepped in the ring, it might actually be a fair counter to bat swarm. Silver Bolts is a joke. If your enemy in pvp is using Immovable, Harness Magicka, Blazing Shield, or Reflecting scales (and often they are using two of these), you can forget about it. Silver Bolts is a very low damage ability that requires extreme luck to actually kill someone with. Expert hunter is nice, but it is a pretty low chance proc. Consider that being in melee with most vampires is suicide, and only promotes making them stronger. Consider a dragon knight using his Reflective Scales so that you can't fight him at range. This essentially nullifies silver bolts, even if their shield or block was down.

A good in game friend runs a vampire/werewolf 'monster' guild. I don't want them to ruin these two, but I would certainly like to see them really balance them to the rest of the game. Do you feel it is fair that most Fighters Guild abilities are very low damage and have a 20% chance to hit, when Vampire abilities have a 100% chance to hit, and often do both damage and healing at the same time? No ultimate in the game heals you while damaging enemies. Bat Swarm is a great offense and a great defense, and it moves with the player. Vampires definitely need a nerf, either that or Fighters Guild abilities and fire damage really need to be more brutal toward vampires. Either way, it needs to be done for the sake of balance of the game. If it isn't, Cyrodiil is going to be 100% bloodsucker.

MornaBaine · February 2015

As a vampire who is regularly ashed when I venture into Cyrodiil despite having the max fire mitigation that can be achieved, I have to disagree.

Vizier · February 2015

LOL @‌ OP

My main is a Vampire NB. I went vampire for the passive stealth movement speed increase so I could take advantage of other armor sets. It works for me.

Vampires are strong enough to be the most used character path in PvP. So much so Camo/Evil Hunter and/or Silver bolts are a no brainer for most PvP builds. Despite these hard hitting anti-vampire abilities the pros far outweigh the cons.

If you're having trouble "feeling" like a vampire I don't know what to tell you. The abilities they have WORK even in their reduced states.

phreatophile · February 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

As a vampire who is regularly ashed when I venture into Cyrodiil despite having the max fire mitigation that can be achieved, I have to disagree.

He's so 6 months ago.

BTW, swarm is not the only healing/damaging ultimate. Fire hits us extraordinarily hard, even with the best flame retardant glyphs we take extra damage. Fighter's guild abilities hit very hard. A well placed dawnbreaker or camo hunter proc is murder.

I think these folks know quite well that the problem isn't so much vampires as how vampires synergise with other abilities/classes that are OP. The combination, if done right, is ridiculous. They blame all their PVP problems on vampires because fixing the actual problems: broken ultimate generation, DK immortality, and a couple others will hurt their build too.

But fear not, with the changes to Ultimate generation in 1.6 nobody will be spamming any ultimates.

MornaBaine · February 2015

Vizier wrote: »

LOL @‌ OP

My main is a Vampire NB. I went vampire for the passive stealth movement speed increase so I could take advantage of other armor sets. It works for me.

Vampires are strong enough to be the most used character path in PvP. So much so Camo/Evil Hunter and/or Silver bolts are a no brainer for most PvP builds. Despite these hard hitting anti-vampire abilities the pros far outweigh the cons.

If you're having trouble "feeling" like a vampire I don't know what to tell you. The abilities they have WORK even in their reduced states.

"Feeling" as though your vampire is actually a vampire is not a matter of being able to "own" in PvP. Far from it. Things that would make a vampire seem more LIKE a vampire would be choices in cosmetic options (because most of the time my vampire looks far more like a zombie than a vampire), options in the skill line that may not work any differently than some other skills already available but designed with a vampire aesthetic in mind, like having a giant bat for a pet instead of a Clannfear, having a fear ability and a stun/charm ability, and doing away with the ridiculous feeding animation and giving vampires their fangs. All of these skills would have to replace other class skills which would leave it up to players just how "vampy" they want their vamp to be. You know...something about, "Play as you want..."

charley222 · February 2015

to keep it realist vampire not suppose to be allow to receive healing because healing are light spell , and healing spell suppose to hurt undead because is light spell , vampire suppose to have boost the night and be more weak day time or you need to be in Dungeons , and not be weak vs fire damage, also feeding every 30 min break the fun , Bat swarm leech is a bit to much , i think the class need to be all rebalance to be more enjoyable , because now so much stuff are way to strong or to weak ,
in the end vampire are very strong because Bat swarm leech to much

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

LOL @‌ OP

My main is a Vampire NB. I went vampire for the passive stealth movement speed increase so I could take advantage of other armor sets. It works for me.

Vampires are strong enough to be the most used character path in PvP. So much so Camo/Evil Hunter and/or Silver bolts are a no brainer for most PvP builds. Despite these hard hitting anti-vampire abilities the pros far outweigh the cons.

If you're having trouble "feeling" like a vampire I don't know what to tell you. The abilities they have WORK even in their reduced states.

"Feeling" as though your vampire is actually a vampire is not a matter of being able to "own" in PvP. Far from it. Things that would make a vampire seem more LIKE a vampire would be choices in cosmetic options (because most of the time my vampire looks far more like a zombie than a vampire), options in the skill line that may not work any differently than some other skills already available but designed with a vampire aesthetic in mind, like having a giant bat for a pet instead of a Clannfear, having a fear ability and a stun/charm ability, and doing away with the ridiculous feeding animation and giving vampires their fangs. All of these skills would have to replace other class skills which would leave it up to players just how "vampy" they want their vamp to be. You know...something about, "Play as you want..."

This I actually like. I'd even be fine with vampires having a 'vampire' form akin to the werewolf form. The Vampire Lord form was a lot of fun in Skyrim. If its about fun its great, the problem comes when certain abilities are stacked to the point that there are no viable counters.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

To the OP, I'm with you. Make Vampires more interesting.

I love the raise corpse and summon bloodfiend ideas. They would have to be balanced of course.

It would be great if there were things we could feed on that would actually hurt us. Try feeding on someone thats diseased: get a debuff, or craft a potion with a fairly long (several minutes)duration made from vampire ashes and something with ravage health and Garlic that harms a vampire when they feed on whomever drank it.(shameless ripoff of Black Blood potion from The Witcher) Another thing that would add some flavor, so to speak, would be feeding on daedra. If you bite an ogrim you get a health regen bonus, bite a humanoid daedra and get a magicka and stamina regen bonus for a minute or so. Maybe some thing that gave us increased damage or increased resistance for a short time.

Somewhere in the Bosmer forest (I think), I ran into a vampire that survived by feeding on Hoarvers who had bitten humans, why can't we do this?

Feeding should be far more central to our skillset. Why are we only able to feed once from behind if we are really lucky and Mars is aligned with Uranus? Why can't I grab one of those actually immortal Dragon Knights in combat and drink up. Let it function just like it does now, no damage to them but tops us off. If folks are worried about unbreakable cc and the vampire's buddies whacking on the prey while we feed, make the donor immune to all damage for the duration of the channel.

In the single player games vampires had a long duration (60s or so) invisibility power that was only usable once per day. If it was only usable once a day, it wouldn't unbalance anything. Bring it back.

Why can't we detect life or see in the Dark? Those abilities were staples of vampirism in the single player games.

What ever happend to Vampiric Seduction? Would be a kick to use on a guard to give us a little time to escape, or to sooth our dinner enough to not agro them and avoid the guards altogether. It would be awesome if it could be used in combat and make the target attack its allies for a few seconds.

Why do the stages go by so quickly? Each one should last 2-3 times longer and the freshly fed stage 1 should look mortal.

Why don't the bonuses and weaknesses scale by stage? If fire damage debuff scaled from 15% - 60% by stage, there'd be fewer stage 4 vampires running around. Add a scaling weakness to fighter's guild abilities such that they aren't that big a deal at stage 1 and they one shot at stage 4. Make the bonus to regens scale by stage (5% @ Stage1 - 25% @ stage 4)and disapear in sunlight.

Look, I get that any discussion of an idea that might benefit players of vampire characters provokes the howls of a group of players that apparently aren't able to roll dodge out of an AOE. Yes, yes twilight sucks and all that.

Vampires are really only usefull for the regen and damage reduction now. If it were up to me, vampires would be far far more powerfull than they are now in the dark, and incredibly weak in sunlight, but we got a really lame strain of vampirism for ESO.

The strain we get in ESO is said to be unaffected by daylight but stronger in the dark, why isn't this true? Why are all of my debuffs still just as powerfull at night? Why doesn't my near zero health regen in daylight revert to a normal rate when the sun goes down?

ZOS, should add a few more strains of vampirism, at least one of which shouldn't suck.

ZOS really (so far) screwed the pooch regarding vampires and the justice system. It was OK to nerf most of our abilities to the point that most don't use them anymore, but not OK to have a guard kill us for showing up in town borderline feral. I think a few well thought out disadvantages that aren't nerfs to our skills would have gone a long way. Justice system would have been a good place to start, making all regens at or near zero in daylight would help too.

I doubt any of these ideas will ever be implemented, but I can dream.

One "Awesome" is not enough, so here's another. If anyone else can claim the mantle of "vampire spokesperson" it's you my friend!

And what? I'm chopped liver? /crai

MornaBaine · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

One "Awesome" is not enough, so here's another. If anyone else can claim the mantle of "vampire spokesperson" it's you my friend!

And what? I'm chopped liver? /crai

Mea culpea! We shall be the vampire spokespersons triumvirate! Fear us!

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

As i stated before, this is not about making vamps OP or about PVP so don't get all whiny and scared, this is about making the vampire more fun to play and offer more variety

Unfortunately when ever you discuss new abilities , you throw the flair in the PVP communities cave . We have to crawl out an take a look now ...

The Pvp community has very good reason for feeling Vampire is overpowered. Fire damage is laughable toward vampires, bat swarm is up nigh 100% of the time. Mist form allows people to drag your scroll across the map at ridiculous speeds. I have a few vampires as well, but I also recognize there is a balancing issue that does need resolving.

Everything you've mentioned here, specifically the bat swarm problem, has been a problem of FotM builds and their broken amounts of Ultimate Generation.

1.6 should fix this. Now instead of seeing a constant cloud of healthy draining squeaky flappies spinning all through Cyrodiil. It'll be at most a few times every couple minutes.

Hopefully. Personally I think there should be a cap on Ultimate Cost Reduction - regardless of source.

Call it a max of -15-20%. OR put them all on a global cooldown like Ultimate powers in other games like Neverwinter or <insert name of another game here>

This nonsense of people being able to pop off Ultimates (whether it's BatSwarm, Standard or whatever) near-constantly is ridiculous and as they have said, not how Ultimates were intended to work.

As it stands, Ultimates aren't Ultimate, they're just the 6th ability on our toolbar.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

As i stated before, this is not about making vamps OP or about PVP so don't get all whiny and scared, this is about making the vampire more fun to play and offer more variety

Unfortunately when ever you discuss new abilities , you throw the flair in the PVP communities cave . We have to crawl out an take a look now ...

The Pvp community has very good reason for feeling Vampire is overpowered. Fire damage is laughable toward vampires, bat swarm is up nigh 100% of the time. Mist form allows people to drag your scroll across the map at ridiculous speeds. I have a few vampires as well, but I also recognize there is a balancing issue that does need resolving.

Everything you've mentioned here, specifically the bat swarm problem, has been a problem of FotM builds and their broken amounts of Ultimate Generation.

1.6 should fix this. Now instead of seeing a constant cloud of healthy draining squeaky flappies spinning all through Cyrodiil. It'll be at most a few times every couple minutes.

Hopefully. Personally I think there should be a cap on Ultimate Cost Reduction - regardless of source.

Call it a max of -15-20%. OR put them all on a global cooldown like Ultimate powers in other games like Neverwinter or <insert name of another game here>

This nonsense of people being able to pop off Ultimates (whether it's BatSwarm, Standard or whatever) near-constantly is ridiculous and as they have said, not how Ultimates were intended to work.

As it stands, Ultimates aren't Ultimate, they're just the 6th ability on our toolbar.

The problem with this, is you have other abilities like the 'Soul Harvest' from the nightblade skill line, or 'Empowering Sweep' from the Templar line with low numbers intentionally so they are more spammable. I think the intention on spammability depended on the specific power.

MornaBaine · February 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

As i stated before, this is not about making vamps OP or about PVP so don't get all whiny and scared, this is about making the vampire more fun to play and offer more variety

Unfortunately when ever you discuss new abilities , you throw the flair in the PVP communities cave . We have to crawl out an take a look now ...

The Pvp community has very good reason for feeling Vampire is overpowered. Fire damage is laughable toward vampires, bat swarm is up nigh 100% of the time. Mist form allows people to drag your scroll across the map at ridiculous speeds. I have a few vampires as well, but I also recognize there is a balancing issue that does need resolving.

Everything you've mentioned here, specifically the bat swarm problem, has been a problem of FotM builds and their broken amounts of Ultimate Generation.

1.6 should fix this. Now instead of seeing a constant cloud of healthy draining squeaky flappies spinning all through Cyrodiil. It'll be at most a few times every couple minutes.

Hopefully. Personally I think there should be a cap on Ultimate Cost Reduction - regardless of source.

Call it a max of -15-20%. OR put them all on a global cooldown like Ultimate powers in other games like Neverwinter or <insert name of another game here>

This nonsense of people being able to pop off Ultimates (whether it's BatSwarm, Standard or whatever) near-constantly is ridiculous and as they have said, not how Ultimates were intended to work.

As it stands, Ultimates aren't Ultimate, they're just the 6th ability on our toolbar.

The problem with this, is you have other abilities like the 'Soul Harvest' from the nightblade skill line, or 'Empowering Sweep' from the Templar line with low numbers intentionally so they are more spammable. I think the intention on spammability depended on the specific power.

Then they need to take a really hard look at that.

phreatophile · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

And what? I'm chopped liver? /crai

No, you rock!

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

As i stated before, this is not about making vamps OP or about PVP so don't get all whiny and scared, this is about making the vampire more fun to play and offer more variety

Unfortunately when ever you discuss new abilities , you throw the flair in the PVP communities cave . We have to crawl out an take a look now ...

The Pvp community has very good reason for feeling Vampire is overpowered. Fire damage is laughable toward vampires, bat swarm is up nigh 100% of the time. Mist form allows people to drag your scroll across the map at ridiculous speeds. I have a few vampires as well, but I also recognize there is a balancing issue that does need resolving.

Everything you've mentioned here, specifically the bat swarm problem, has been a problem of FotM builds and their broken amounts of Ultimate Generation.

1.6 should fix this. Now instead of seeing a constant cloud of healthy draining squeaky flappies spinning all through Cyrodiil. It'll be at most a few times every couple minutes.

Hopefully. Personally I think there should be a cap on Ultimate Cost Reduction - regardless of source.

Call it a max of -15-20%. OR put them all on a global cooldown like Ultimate powers in other games like Neverwinter or <insert name of another game here>

This nonsense of people being able to pop off Ultimates (whether it's BatSwarm, Standard or whatever) near-constantly is ridiculous and as they have said, not how Ultimates were intended to work.

As it stands, Ultimates aren't Ultimate, they're just the 6th ability on our toolbar.

The problem with this, is you have other abilities like the 'Soul Harvest' from the nightblade skill line, or 'Empowering Sweep' from the Templar line with low numbers intentionally so they are more spammable. I think the intention on spammability depended on the specific power.

Then they need to take a really hard look at that.

I don't disagree.

MADshadowman · February 2015

Well, i really don't wanted this to become a pvp and balance discussion. i think vamps got nerfed enough, actually so much that being a vampire became a little iffy. Only for an ultimate and 1 passive? That's not much, and probably not worth the hassle.

What i want is a skill line that makes being a vampire actually experienceable. I don't want super strong OP skills, i just want a vamp version of other skills or something that is unique for vamps.

I suggested a vamp gap closer, where you run or hover to your target and deal some damage, maybe add a bleeding effect or a healing debuff. This is nothing new, other skill lines have stuff like this. does it make a difference if a templar uses toppling charge, or a vamp uses his gap closer? not for the target. But it makes a difference for the vampire, cause he can actually play his role as a vampire with abilities designed for that.

Not every vampire uses bat swarm. I love this skill, but there were times when i didn't use it, cause i wanted to get used to other ultimates.

Bat swarm alone is not really dangerous, if you combine it with aoe spamming, it is. But every ultimate is dangerous when you add some aoe spam on top of it.

I killed entire zergs with nova and blazing spear, and this while being 20 meters away. But that's what an ultimate is for, isn't it?

Stravokov · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

Well, i really don't wanted this to become a pvp and balance discussion. i think vamps got nerfed enough, actually so much that being a vampire became a little iffy. Only for an ultimate and 1 passive? That's not much, and probably not worth the hassle.

What i want is a skill line that makes being a vampire actually experienceable. I don't want super strong OP skills, i just want a vamp version of other skills or something that is unique for vamps.

I suggested a vamp gap closer, where you run or hover to your target and deal some damage, maybe add a bleeding effect or a healing debuff. This is nothing new, other skill lines have stuff like this. does it make a difference if a templar uses toppling charge, or a vamp uses his gap closer? not for the target. But it makes a difference for the vampire, cause he can actually play his role as a vampire with abilities designed for that.

Not every vampire uses bat swarm. I love this skill, but there were times when i didn't use it, cause i wanted to get used to other ultimates.

Bat swarm alone is not really dangerous, if you combine it with aoe spamming, it is. But every ultimate is dangerous when you add some aoe spam on top of it.

I killed entire zergs with nova and blazing spear, and this while being 20 meters away. But that's what an ultimate is for, isn't it?

i always loved that skill the NPC Bloodfiends use when they glow red and teleport to you. that would be an awesome vampire closer skill that already has an animation in the game. it could work allot like Teleport strike. or even a batfrom-like animation where you quickly fly to the target to strike them. all kinds of ideas that could mirror current skills but with vampire flair/theme.

there are all kinds of ideas they could do to make you "feel" like your a vampire. even our feed doesnt feel like it is important in any situation. and now that it can be CC broken, what is the point of using it in PVP?. i still think Drain Essence (and feed) should ALWAYS work, where only the stun can be broken out. or both the skill and ability need to be completely reworked. both skills can only be used once in a single encounter, why would anyone have them on their bar?

and forget having fun with other Vampires! once one vampire feeds or drains the target, the others cant make use of either ability/skill... what a waste.

MADshadowman · February 2015

Stravokov wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Well, i really don't wanted this to become a pvp and balance discussion. i think vamps got nerfed enough, actually so much that being a vampire became a little iffy. Only for an ultimate and 1 passive? That's not much, and probably not worth the hassle.

What i want is a skill line that makes being a vampire actually experienceable. I don't want super strong OP skills, i just want a vamp version of other skills or something that is unique for vamps.

I suggested a vamp gap closer, where you run or hover to your target and deal some damage, maybe add a bleeding effect or a healing debuff. This is nothing new, other skill lines have stuff like this. does it make a difference if a templar uses toppling charge, or a vamp uses his gap closer? not for the target. But it makes a difference for the vampire, cause he can actually play his role as a vampire with abilities designed for that.

Not every vampire uses bat swarm. I love this skill, but there were times when i didn't use it, cause i wanted to get used to other ultimates.

Bat swarm alone is not really dangerous, if you combine it with aoe spamming, it is. But every ultimate is dangerous when you add some aoe spam on top of it.

I killed entire zergs with nova and blazing spear, and this while being 20 meters away. But that's what an ultimate is for, isn't it?

i always loved that skill the NPC Bloodfiends use when they glow red and teleport to you. that would be an awesome vampire closer skill that already has an animation in the game. it could work allot like Teleport strike. or even a batfrom-like animation where you quickly fly to the target to strike them. all kinds of ideas that could mirror current skills but with vampire flair/theme.

there are all kinds of ideas they could do to make you "feel" like your a vampire. even our feed doesnt feel like it is important in any situation. and now that it can be CC broken, what is the point of using it in PVP?. i still think Drain Essence (and feed) should ALWAYS work, where only the stun can be broken out. or both the skill and ability need to be completely reworked. both skills can only be used once in a single encounter, why would anyone have them on their bar?

and forget having fun with other Vampires! once one vampire feeds or drains the target, the others cant make use of either ability/skill... what a waste.

What i hate the most about drain essence is that you can't use it if someone is blocking or has immovable running. Ok, i get that the stun can't work on them, but why should this prevent me from using it at all?

The ability has these effects:

Stun the target
Deal damage
Replenish health and stamina

If someone is blocking, then skip the stun and just do the damage/healing.

All other skills can be acivated regardless of cc immunity. if i use invasion on a blocking target, i still charge in and do damage, only the stun/knockdown won't work.

Vamp skills always have weird restrictions for some reason that makes them useless in most situations.

MADshadowman · February 2015

So @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ - can you please have the devs look at this and give some statements about our chances for an expanded skill line?

clocksstoppe · February 2015

It looks unfair because you are making a biased comparison. ALL of the werewolf actives AND passives only work in ww form, which you have to waste 300 ulti to cast and then stay in ww form for 60sec.

On the other hand you vampires get all of your passives for free all the time.

You're not fooling anyone, there's a reason literally every build that isnt full stamina is also vampire.

Heishi · February 2015

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I really don't see the amazing power of vampires. Notably I really only do PvE, so I don't have 1st hand experience with a vamp in PvP.

The main vamp I use is a full magicka NB. The enjoyable thing is I can travel at normal speed while stealthed and remain fairly well undetected. The stamina/magicka regen is a pretty nice bonus, he doesn't use stamina abilities so it keeps him in stamina for blocking and dodging pretty well.

Generally speaking though I run into the same issues OP mentioned though. Instead of devouring swarm, I went with the bat cloud that is supposed to add invisibility every sec for 5 sec. I think I've died more using it than I've killed with it, and the invisibility is laughable as npc's still target you like normal. If anything it makes timing abilities more of a pain since I can't see the animation either. At some point I might give devouring swarm a try but the damage output really shouldn't be different.

The drain skill is decent, if it works. The only way I can seem to get the drain skill to work is if I completely stop all action and hit the button 2 or 3 times. Even then, as OP noted and I'm sure is much worse in PvP, if it is blocked or cancelled in any way that's it, that skills usefulness is done. In my case, from stealth (not invisible) using suprise attack I deal about 2100dmg killing most mobs in one hit. Usually this reduces a group of 3 to 2 or 2 to 1 for what I actually fight. Most of the enemies I would actually have use of using drain on, it doesn't work flat out. Anything more than trash mobs and it's useless.

Mist form, I've never seen this be useful. I've read over and over in PvP how it is this super amazing escape skill, never seen it. For me in PvE it's almost counter productive to use it. I have never since I have been a vampire, been able to escape from PvE enemies using Mist form. Notably I couldn't stomach having it on my skill bar long enough to morph it so I don't know if like with the morph it suddenly kicks into overdrive or what, but to me it seems useless.

On my sorcerer who is 50/50 mag/sta even the passives are pretty useless except the sta/mag regen. He just turned vamp not long ago, so I'm feeling it out, but I expect it to be even more useless

Werewolf on the other hand I have found to be pretty good for PvE. The damage output may not be as high as when I'm not using it, but with the new skills it make for a pretty well rounded ultimate. In PvE there are usually enough trash mobs to keep the form going for a long time. I've run whole delves and public dungeons without losing it. I can see how the form wouldn't last long enough in PvP though. Also with players breaking the CC abilities, I can see it further diminishing the usefulness.

MADshadowman · February 2015

clocksstoppe wrote: »

It looks unfair because you are making a biased comparison. ALL of the werewolf actives AND passives only work in ww form, which you have to waste 300 ulti to cast and then stay in ww form for 60sec.

On the other hand you vampires get all of your passives for free all the time.

You're not fooling anyone, there's a reason literally every build that isnt full stamina is also vampire.

It looks unfair that you have a skillbar full of ww abilities you can use in ww form and feel like an actual ww and vamps don't have that? You are correct.

Our passives are 1) not free and 2) not as good as you think.

in exchange for the passives we have to carry our weaknesses around all the time, no hp regen and fire weakness doesn't make vamps very happy, since fire is the elemental damage you will encounter the most in this game.

Fairness is when both skill lines have the exact same number of abilities.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

It looks unfair because you are making a biased comparison. ALL of the werewolf actives AND passives only work in ww form, which you have to waste 300 ulti to cast and then stay in ww form for 60sec.

On the other hand you vampires get all of your passives for free all the time.

You're not fooling anyone, there's a reason literally every build that isnt full stamina is also vampire.

It looks unfair that you have a skillbar full of ww abilities you can use in ww form and feel like an actual ww and vamps don't have that? You are correct.

Our passives are 1) not free and 2) not as good as you think.

in exchange for the passives we have to carry our weaknesses around all the time, no hp regen and fire weakness doesn't make vamps very happy, since fire is the elemental damage you will encounter the most in this game.

Fairness is when both skill lines have the exact same number of abilities.

Agreed.

BUT in the spirit of fairness, I do agree that WW should have their passives applicable whilst in human form. At half capacity if full would be considered "too OP".

I mean it makes sense in every werewolf lore, ever. Bitten wolves are stronger than the average joe in human form, more resilient, healthier etc etc.

Yet ESO displays none of this.

Both Vampire and Werewolf could use more polishing, Vampire more so than Werewolf as WW is in a decent place with new shinies and goodies, so while Vampire could use a revision, WW just needs a few tweaks.

PlagueMonk · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

All my toons are vampires. I enjoy being a vampire, not only for the skills and passives, but also for RP reasons (even though i don't really RP).

Vampires were pretty strong in the beginning, maybe a little too strong, since then they have taken a good beating with the nerf hammer and now they feel like a collection of misadvantages with abilities that can't make up for that.

We take 50% more fire damage.
We have a 75% reduced health regen.
We're always in vampire form, so fighters guild abilities work on us at all times.

Of course there have to be some disadvantages, but what do we get for being so vulnerable?

Bat swarm
A good AOE that does damage and heals and sticks with you. But it got nerfed, first 25% less damage, then 30% less healing. Now it's not a real danger anymore. I can't remember the last time i died through bat swarm or really killed someone with it.

Drain Essence
Only useful in PVE, but not really worth replacing another skill with it. In PVP it rarely works. If the target is blocking or using immovable, the skill won't work. If you can really place it on a player, he just breaks out of it. After you used it once, even if it got cancelled immediately, you can't use it again on this target.

Mist Form
This used to be a good getaway move, before it was nerfed. Now you won't regen magicka while you're in mistform, which means you can't use it that much anymore and after several casts, you will be out of magicka and be very vulnerable.

We also have the feeding self-synergy, but it's so hard to place it in PVP and it does no damage, it only heals us and puts an unbreakable stun on the target. In 1.6 this will no longer be the case, since this patch makes the feeding synergy stun breakable. Obviously there were enough DKs that complained about other people having a counter to their invincibility. Thanks for that.

Then there are 6 passives, 2 of them are not worth taking: Savage feeding and blood ritual.

That's it, that's the vampire. There is not much that makes you feel like a vampire. Only 3 active skills? More looks like a party gimmick.

When i was testing stuff on the PTS i took a look at the WW skill line and was a little shocked, cause there were so many active skills and even though i haven't tested them, the option to fill an entire skillbar with these abilities is just amazing.

Why can't vampires have as many active abilities? This would allow us to really play a vampire and not just a hobby clown with some little tricks.

Here is a visual comparison of these 2 skill lines

That looks a little unfair to me, since we have to find someone that can bite us, or find npc vamps that bite us, then complete the vamp quest and live with our weaknesses and disadvantages AT ALL TIMES. We cannot toggle this on and off, we have to commit to this and stick with it.

This is not about making vamps OP, this is just about giving us more options to really play as a vampire, to make it feel like we're actual vampires.

Please no stupid vamp hate comments, please keep this discussion objective and constructive.

I'd also like to involve our spokeswoman @MornaBaine‌ in this discussion.

This is like beating a dead horse but I will play one more time.....
The reason WHY WWs line looks better is because they have to transform to get all those abilities. Vamps get them on the fly. That's the trade off, deal with it. Plus if you had a full slate of Vamp abilities you would be running around in stage 4 with that 60% cast reduction, being able to endlessly spam your abilities (you know, kind of like Vamps do now only MORE)

I continue to laugh at Vamps claiming they are somehow "weak" now because they have been nerfed repeatedly. There is good REASON for that. As a player I should be able to choose NOT to be a Vamp or WW and be JUST as powerful as you are. Otherwise it is unfair to those who dislike those choices.

And while bats is not as FToM as it was a few months ago, it is still very prevalent on the PvP battlefield. I am still seeing it pop up on my death tally so it's more than a simple "good" ultimate. This might change a bit more with 1.6 however with the way ULT is generated. Can't tell atm.

You have a lot of great passives that you seem to be sweeping under the rug as "insignificant".

If you really want "more" then a couple things have to happen:

1) You and WWs need to be more vulnerable to the Fighters skill line.

2) The moment you become a WW or Vamp you lose access to all Fighters Guild skill lines and passives (just like you lose access to your transform lines if you cure yourself)

3) Fighters Guild needs to have comparable passives to the Vamp and WW. So I will feel just as powerful as a Vamp or WW investing in the Fighters skill line.

4) Make the Justice system take notice of and react adversely to stage 3-4 Vamps or transformed WWs.

You agree to those 4 things and you Vamps and WWs can knock yourselves out.

SlaaMM · February 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

I think Vampires should be UBER STRONG.

However,

Werewolves only should appear at night at a full bloodmoon, uncontrolled. Also they should be able to attack friendlies.

Vampires should die at a ray of sunlight.

Note: I am vamp myself (unwillingly, as i need to be one to kill one due to stacking speed buffs. not anymore, but i prefer my armor above the nightsomething armor so i need to be vamp)

Yeah and Vamps should only be able to feed on nps in town and incur the justice system bounties. Most lore in game books etc you don't get the same buffs off of animals like you do people.
AGREED
Vamps are far from lore friendly in this game as it is.
All the single players ESO games there was consequences for going out in the sun light, personally I'm tired of Twilight online.

MADshadowman · February 2015

SlaaMM wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I think Vampires should be UBER STRONG.

However,

Werewolves only should appear at night at a full bloodmoon, uncontrolled. Also they should be able to attack friendlies.

Vampires should die at a ray of sunlight.

Note: I am vamp myself (unwillingly, as i need to be one to kill one due to stacking speed buffs. not anymore, but i prefer my armor above the nightsomething armor so i need to be vamp)

Yeah and Vamps should only be able to feed on nps in town and incur the justice system bounties. Most lore in game books etc you don't get the same buffs off of animals like you do people.
AGREED
Vamps are far from lore friendly in this game as it is.
All the single players ESO games there was consequences for going out in the sun light, personally I'm tired of Twilight online.

Get over it, this is another vampire strain that is immune to sunlight and it's also covered by the lore. You can't do it any other way in a MMO.

MADshadowman · February 2015

PlagueMonk wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

All my toons are vampires. I enjoy being a vampire, not only for the skills and passives, but also for RP reasons (even though i don't really RP).

Vampires were pretty strong in the beginning, maybe a little too strong, since then they have taken a good beating with the nerf hammer and now they feel like a collection of misadvantages with abilities that can't make up for that.

We take 50% more fire damage.
We have a 75% reduced health regen.
We're always in vampire form, so fighters guild abilities work on us at all times.

Of course there have to be some disadvantages, but what do we get for being so vulnerable?

Bat swarm
A good AOE that does damage and heals and sticks with you. But it got nerfed, first 25% less damage, then 30% less healing. Now it's not a real danger anymore. I can't remember the last time i died through bat swarm or really killed someone with it.

Drain Essence
Only useful in PVE, but not really worth replacing another skill with it. In PVP it rarely works. If the target is blocking or using immovable, the skill won't work. If you can really place it on a player, he just breaks out of it. After you used it once, even if it got cancelled immediately, you can't use it again on this target.

Mist Form
This used to be a good getaway move, before it was nerfed. Now you won't regen magicka while you're in mistform, which means you can't use it that much anymore and after several casts, you will be out of magicka and be very vulnerable.

We also have the feeding self-synergy, but it's so hard to place it in PVP and it does no damage, it only heals us and puts an unbreakable stun on the target. In 1.6 this will no longer be the case, since this patch makes the feeding synergy stun breakable. Obviously there were enough DKs that complained about other people having a counter to their invincibility. Thanks for that.

Then there are 6 passives, 2 of them are not worth taking: Savage feeding and blood ritual.

That's it, that's the vampire. There is not much that makes you feel like a vampire. Only 3 active skills? More looks like a party gimmick.

When i was testing stuff on the PTS i took a look at the WW skill line and was a little shocked, cause there were so many active skills and even though i haven't tested them, the option to fill an entire skillbar with these abilities is just amazing.

Why can't vampires have as many active abilities? This would allow us to really play a vampire and not just a hobby clown with some little tricks.

Here is a visual comparison of these 2 skill lines

That looks a little unfair to me, since we have to find someone that can bite us, or find npc vamps that bite us, then complete the vamp quest and live with our weaknesses and disadvantages AT ALL TIMES. We cannot toggle this on and off, we have to commit to this and stick with it.

This is not about making vamps OP, this is just about giving us more options to really play as a vampire, to make it feel like we're actual vampires.

Please no stupid vamp hate comments, please keep this discussion objective and constructive.

I'd also like to involve our spokeswoman @MornaBaine‌ in this discussion.

This is like beating a dead horse but I will play one more time.....
The reason WHY WWs line looks better is because they have to transform to get all those abilities. Vamps get them on the fly. That's the trade off, deal with it. Plus if you had a full slate of Vamp abilities you would be running around in stage 4 with that 60% cast reduction, being able to endlessly spam your abilities (you know, kind of like Vamps do now only MORE)

I continue to laugh at Vamps claiming they are somehow "weak" now because they have been nerfed repeatedly. There is good REASON for that. As a player I should be able to choose NOT to be a Vamp or WW and be JUST as powerful as you are. Otherwise it is unfair to those who dislike those choices.

And while bats is not as FToM as it was a few months ago, it is still very prevalent on the PvP battlefield. I am still seeing it pop up on my death tally so it's more than a simple "good" ultimate. This might change a bit more with 1.6 however with the way ULT is generated. Can't tell atm.

You have a lot of great passives that you seem to be sweeping under the rug as "insignificant".

If you really want "more" then a couple things have to happen:

1) You and WWs need to be more vulnerable to the Fighters skill line.

2) The moment you become a WW or Vamp you lose access to all Fighters Guild skill lines and passives (just like you lose access to your transform lines if you cure yourself)

3) Fighters Guild needs to have comparable passives to the Vamp and WW. So I will feel just as powerful as a Vamp or WW investing in the Fighters skill line.

4) Make the Justice system take notice of and react adversely to stage 3-4 Vamps or transformed WWs.

You agree to those 4 things and you Vamps and WWs can knock yourselves out.

If you're not a vamp, then this is not a discussion for you. We are vamps and we want more options for playing as vamps. This is important to us and we don't want more "power" we just want different abilities to add more variety to the vampire gameplay.

wafcatb14_ESO · February 2015

They need to make Vamps be kos to all npc and guards when in stage 4 vamp.

MADshadowman · February 2015

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

They need to make Vamps be kos to all npc and guards when in stage 4 vamp.

nope.

Mikoto · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

They need to make Vamps be kos to all npc and guards when in stage 4 vamp.

nope.

Yes. Play any TES games and run into town with stage 4 vampirism or in WW form.

MADshadowman · February 2015

Mikoto wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

They need to make Vamps be kos to all npc and guards when in stage 4 vamp.

nope.

Yes. Play any TES games and run into town with stage 4 vampirism or in WW form.

What can i say? Just nope. This is not any TES game, this is an MMO. You can't just make vampires kos by everybody, this is not how it works. The game has to be still playable as a vampire. There might be some guard reactions in a later update, but i think kos is not the right way to go. npcs could just refuse to talk to you, which means you can't do quests, unless you get down to a lower vampire stage. This makes way more sense for a rpg than just stupid vamp bashing by every npc in the game.