Dear Zenimax, You promised us Spell Crafting to open the Class Systems up.....

Bouvin · January 2015

Carina wrote: »

If people are not being heard, then they should speak with their wallet. Complaining on the forums (after already posting constructive criticism) gets people nowhere. It all just becomes a broken record.

Come March you're losing that option.

goldnugget · January 2015

i would rather have the dark brotherhood. spell crafting is a total balance nightmare.

Divinius · January 2015

Time to post this again...

Every time someone on these forums uses the word "Promised" god kills a kitten.

Please, think of the kittens.

Nowhere, in ANY of those links, did anyone from ZOS ever say they "promised" anything.

Proposed, planned, intended, expected... sure, all of those things. But they never "promised" anything. Please stop using that word. It just makes you look overly entitled.

RDMyers65b14_ESO · January 2015

Well, I worked for a major credit card company for five years in the customer service department. You can NOT get a refund on a subscription. All that the credit card company will do is ask if you have canceled the subscription. Guess that will make a difference with the game going b2p. ;> If you insist on calling your credit card company and telling them that you want a refund for nearly a year of a subscription, go ahead. The CSR probably could use a good laugh. And yes, the person will laugh at you. That's why they have a mute button.

Humanistic · January 2015

If devs left it up to the players to decide the fate of the game, then the game would fail harder than it would have in the first place. I hate players that think they know everything about game design.

It's like being the banker in Monopoly, and taking money from the bank every time you want it. You don't know what you're talking about, stop trying to sound like you know how to run a multi-million dollar business.

Blubster3000nrb18_ESO · January 2015

alot of people seem to not notice that making a game isn't as simple as lets put this in. done.
there are always issues that will arise from gameplay mechanics to scripting to completely ruining the balance of the game.

if they say they are going to do something and end up not doing it could be because by one of those issues.

not saying that is the case with this but it is something to look at before saying this was promised and i demand it be put in the game.

Rescorla_ESO · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

This feature has been demanded by players since Alpha and Beta in Mass, and it is the only ray of hope they have for bringing the TES fanbois back in droves, because it essentially makes your class unlocked and 100% customizable (Just like the other TES games).

The "Classes" and their limitations and requirement to re-roll a character, was the reason the masses didn't sub after beta and the reason the release utterly flopped. It was a key component which was left out, which would make the game so much more then any other MMORPG. It should have been the priority update months ago.

You're claiming classes are the primary reason people didn't want to sub after beta and the primary reason ESO's launch was a bit rocky? If you're going to make stuff up, at least try to make sense.

I was vague in that statement let me clarify:

One of the major selling points which mislead consumers and why many were upset and did not purchase on release, was the promise that the class system would be open and fully customizable, with the "Classes" only being starting things to give people a head start but allowing you to build any type of character you wanted later on in game.

Hence === It was assumed, that the system would be like other TES games with Classes to simply start a player off with something, just like other TES games.

After it was found that classes are severely limited in the customizability, even to the point of requiring you to re-roll your character for a vast majority of Skills, and thus locking you out unless you want to level an alt.

People were pissed.... Really Pissed. For what the game was at the time, this was one of the key lynch pins in the cog-work that caused the launch to flop.

Was it the only one? Of course not. But I remember reading 100's of posts with 1000s of replies on multiple sites specifically complaining about how the system was not even remotely related tot he TES franchise, and the Vast majority of Fanbois, would not be purchasing the game until it was fixed.

This issue alone cost ZOS Millions in sales (and about 1.2 Million Subs). And was the first time ZOS intentionally mislead it's consumers. By attempting to piggyback on the TES success by comparing their model to it subtly and letting the consumer bases assumptions do the rest.

This game when it launched did not even remotely resemble an Elder Scrolls game, the only thing in common with the TES franchise, was the lore.

Anyone who has played a TES game knows the RPG system mechanics can change from game to game. The RPG mechanics of Oblivion are completely different than the RPG mechanics of Skyrim. The only thing Skyrim had familiar with Oblivion was the lore and the sandbox nature of gameplay. I do recall Oblivion having classes in it while Skyrim did not.

Almost every MMO I have ever played has gone with a class system instead of a skills system. The only MMO I recall being completely skill based was Asherons Call and the one thing I remember about that game was that in PVP the min-maxers figured out what the most OP build was and the large majority of players ended up copying it. TESO likely would have been no different if there were no classes in the game.

IMO the best design choice for a MMO that has a heavy focus on PVP is to go with the class system using the Rock Paper Scissors concept. If spellcrafting in TESO opens up all magicka based abilities to the point my NB can create spells that are identical to the other 3 class' abilities, I'm not so certain that would be a good thing, especially if it ends up being like Asherons Call and most people end up using an identical min-max build.

Akhratos · January 2015

It is coming just..

or stfu!

Valencer · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

This feature has been demanded by players since Alpha and Beta in Mass, and it is the only ray of hope they have for bringing the TES fanbois back in droves, because it essentially makes your class unlocked and 100% customizable (Just like the other TES games).

The "Classes" and their limitations and requirement to re-roll a character, was the reason the masses didn't sub after beta and the reason the release utterly flopped. It was a key component which was left out, which would make the game so much more then any other MMORPG. It should have been the priority update months ago.

You're claiming classes are the primary reason people didn't want to sub after beta and the primary reason ESO's launch was a bit rocky? If you're going to make stuff up, at least try to make sense.

I was vague in that statement let me clarify:

One of the major selling points which mislead consumers and why many were upset and did not purchase on release, was the promise that the class system would be open and fully customizable, with the "Classes" only being starting things to give people a head start but allowing you to build any type of character you wanted later on in game.

Hence === It was assumed, that the system would be like other TES games with Classes to simply start a player off with something, just like other TES games.

After it was found that classes are severely limited in the customizability, even to the point of requiring you to re-roll your character for a vast majority of Skills, and thus locking you out unless you want to level an alt.

...

This game when it launched did not even remotely resemble an Elder Scrolls game, the only thing in common with the TES franchise, was the lore.

ESO's system does a pretty good job of bringing TES' skill system together with that of a MMO. Classes are a starting point to help get the player started (with 3 skill lines unique to that class) and you've got a large amount of weapon/armor/guild/world/crafting skill lines shared by all classes that allow you to further develop your character.
To be fair, there's always a lively debate going on about certain classes being more optimized for specific roles in endgame PvE/PvP, but your argument is about drawing in new players ('TES fanbois').

I think you're putting a little bit too much weight on this one design decision, and too little weight on many other factors (some external), like the absolute waterfall of hate this game has been getting ever since it was announced (just for being a TES MMO), or the fact that PvP has basically been a laggy zergfest for months.

That said, spellcrafting is still supposed to be on the table and there's no question it'll be a welcome addition.

starkerealm · January 2015

Reverb wrote: »

Did they promise? I remember reading that they were working on it for the future, but I don't remember seeing anywhere that they absolutely guaranteed that it would happen. Maybe I missed it.

It's slated for 1.7.

Malpherian · January 2015

Valencer wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

This feature has been demanded by players since Alpha and Beta in Mass, and it is the only ray of hope they have for bringing the TES fanbois back in droves, because it essentially makes your class unlocked and 100% customizable (Just like the other TES games).

The "Classes" and their limitations and requirement to re-roll a character, was the reason the masses didn't sub after beta and the reason the release utterly flopped. It was a key component which was left out, which would make the game so much more then any other MMORPG. It should have been the priority update months ago.

You're claiming classes are the primary reason people didn't want to sub after beta and the primary reason ESO's launch was a bit rocky? If you're going to make stuff up, at least try to make sense.

I was vague in that statement let me clarify:

One of the major selling points which mislead consumers and why many were upset and did not purchase on release, was the promise that the class system would be open and fully customizable, with the "Classes" only being starting things to give people a head start but allowing you to build any type of character you wanted later on in game.

Hence === It was assumed, that the system would be like other TES games with Classes to simply start a player off with something, just like other TES games.

After it was found that classes are severely limited in the customizability, even to the point of requiring you to re-roll your character for a vast majority of Skills, and thus locking you out unless you want to level an alt.

...

This game when it launched did not even remotely resemble an Elder Scrolls game, the only thing in common with the TES franchise, was the lore.

ESO's system does a pretty good job of bringing TES' skill system together with that of a MMO. Classes are a starting point to help get the player started (with 3 skill lines unique to that class) and you've got a large amount of weapon/armor/guild/world/crafting skill lines shared by all classes that allow you to further develop your character.
To be fair, there's always a lively debate going on about certain classes being more optimized for specific roles in endgame PvE/PvP, but your argument is about drawing in new players ('TES fanbois').

I think you're putting a little bit too much weight on this one design decision, and too little weight on many other factors (some external), like the absolute waterfall of hate this game has been getting ever since it was announced (just for being a TES MMO), or the fact that PvP has basically been a laggy zergfest for months.

That said, spellcrafting is still supposed to be on the table and there's no question it'll be a welcome addition.

1.2 million TES fans who raged and refused to buy it because of the "Restricted" class system, say otherwise.

And Oblivion, Marrowwind, and Skyrim All had "Open" Skill systems, Sure Marrowwind and Oblivion had class systems, but they were not "Restricted", they were "Open" which is the key thing here you all championing this garbage seem to be purposely omitting, probably because it makes your whole argument irrelevant.

And no, there is not a single RPG mechanic difference in ANY of those titles. A few Game changes in how spellcrafting works, No levitation int he later ones, etc sure, but nothing "Major". TESO is not even remotely close to any game in the TES franchise, Mechanically, or otherwise. In fact the ONLY commonality is the Lore, and even that isn't cannon.

The problem is not that TESO has Classes, the problem, is that they are "RESTRICTED" classes. Which the New Spell-Crafting system will fix (Or was supposed to fix).

Malpherian · January 2015

List of MMORPG games which are skill systems and not class based (Note that Skill based games may include "Classes" but they are not Restrictive and allow the slotting of ANY skill regardless of the original class you chose, they are "Open" to such a degree that what class you chose, does not matter in the slightest):

Path of Exhile
EvE Online <<< 13 years going strong this game is older then WoW.
Perpetuum <<< 7 Years Going strong (Low pop though)
Rift <<< *** Game, but people still play it 6 years after release
Asherons Call
Archeage <<<< Massive game, Loads of people play this, tons of servers.
The Repopulation <<<< Archeage in Scifi Currently in Beta
SWG (Before SOE ruined it) <<< One of the Original Classless Games, Currently Dead. Had a good run until SOE killed it though.

(Several Indie Games, too many to list some of which are now AAA Titles).

But yea that's just a small sampling. There are a ton of them.

Leon119 · January 2015

omg hold your horses. all this time they have been working on champion system and justice system as well as consoles. ffs they cant do everything. when these are implemented and are ok then the next content will be more focused on and be on the forefront. personally i prefer champion system to be ok and functional then they can add another system that will completely change the game and its balance. also if u are threatening devs to unsub just because they dont take into account what you want most to come out just leave, we wont miss you

Malpherian · January 2015

Leon119 wrote: »

omg hold your horses. all this time they have been working on champion system and justice system as well as consoles. ffs they cant do everything. when these are implemented and are ok then the next content will be more focused on and be on the forefront. personally i prefer champion system to be ok and functional then they can add another system that will completely change the game and its balance. also if u are threatening devs to unsub just because they dont take into account what you want most to come out just leave, we wont miss you

Actually, the spell system should have been added first, simply because your right it will change the entire game. That being the case, it would have been smarter to add it, and then add the champion system and everything else so it could all be balanced together, and around that system.

Since it's being added last, the game is going to be pure chaos for months maybe years afterwords and balancing is going to be a nightmare.

But lets face it, when it comes to development ZOS has some decent ideas, but no frakin clue how to implement ANY of them properly. Hence why it takes them 4 months to develop something and then another 6 to balance it. Rather then 4 weeks to develop something and 2 weeks to balance it like several other companies I could name.

"Cough" CCP, Red5, En-Masse, and several others "Cough"

It's called Organization, Planning, Delegation, and Efficiency. All of Which ZOS is horrible at.

WillhelmBlack · January 2015

AshySamurai wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Spell crafting is still coming. For $19.99

$19.99 per month.

I'd still buy it.

grimjim398 · January 2015

Just typing the phrase, "Dear Zenimax, you Promised," should make you giggle. I mean, really. For the most part promises aren't worth much in the real world, and Zenimax .... Well, let's just say that none of their public statements are worth much.

MornaBaine · January 2015

While we can certainly agree that it is clear by now that ZOS "promises" us exactly NOTHING.... they DID tell us they were creating this and intended to implement it. So at the very LEAST they need to step up and tell us whether or not it's still under development and, if yes, HOW they intend to implement it, as a core game update (which, ethically, it should be) or as DLC or some bizarre "cosmetic or convenience" thing in the cash store. Because I can totally see them selling individual "spells" that do things like give you a reskinned clannfear so now it looks like a zombie. And if they call that "spellcrafting" Imma smack somebody.

Kraven · January 2015

While I do agree ZOS is full of crap and you shouldn't believe anything they say until it is actually fact.

And while I do agree you may not see spell crafting at all, and if you do will not be before 2016.

I do have to say, OP you might have just a bit too much rage fueled passion on this subject.

As far as order of content added...Guilds/Justice - Imp City - Spell - Champ.
The guilds and Imp city were 'promised' (used very loosely) in early beta. In fact "They (DB and Thieves)will not be in at launch but very shortly afterwards." while not a promise was a statement made as a fact on Several occasions.

Now add to the list all of the content they've said is coming eventually keeping in mind it must be spaced out so that new DLC isn't asking to be purchased every 2 months, overwhelming many console and B2P players. The last major update before console release means the first DLC is likely to be Sept. or Oct. if they want to push out a second one at Christmas. However they may save the first one to release during the holiday season.

After the initial DLC while the burst of money from initial sales looks good on the books, they'll try to push out a couple others at most every 4 months depending on how much they have stockpiled. Unfortunately as more and more players stop buying the DLC and stop falling for the cash grab those updates will start coming further and further apart. As more subscribers realize that it makes much more sense to purchase crowns as you want them and to buy DLC outright than it does to subscribe, that source of funding will start to dry up.

They have competition coming. Witcher 3 looks to be great, and now ZOS has to compete with single player console games since they are in that market. If the choice comes down to buying a new release great title or a mediocre ESO DLC, more and more will try the new games. Both single player and MMOs. I almost feel bad. It had so much potential and I had such hope for this title.

Rioht · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

And now this with update 1.6 only being hal;f a justice system, and as Farell stated on redit, ("We have no plans for future major updates after 1.6") This means that they do not plan on even finishing it and adding the PvP side, nor the spell customization, nor any other actual Content.

I mean it's not even a finished game and they are just abandoning it.

@‌Malpherian

Way to completely mislead people.

On the Reddit AMA one of the Devs responded to domonoid78's question about content/DLC releases, which is where I am assuming you got your quote from. Otherwise please post your COMPLETE source.

They stated that they are not planning on releasing any large content components after 1.6 until after the console release. (AKA avoiding Day 1 DLC for consoles).

They never said they are never going to put out major updates.

They already showed some previews of the major updates they are working on:

SpellCrafting,Clockwork City, Orsinium, Wrothgar, Dark brotherhood, Thieves Guild etc are all coming.

Vyle_Byte · January 2015

Whoa man. Firstly, they never promised spellcrafting. They said it was something they were working on. Secondly, they have also said it is still in the works... so your entire rant here is just, obtuse.

Don't get me wrong, spellcrafting is the update I have been waiting for. I don't care about Justice system one bit. But to say they reneged on something just because its not out on your timeline (which they never said which update) and to say your getting your money back because of this? Come on seriously. That is not going to happen!

Also, 1.6 isn't the last major update EVER. Just the last major one before console release. More than likely it will be a while before another major update, if you are really that upset about it, drop your sub. Game is going free anyway. It will get here when it gets here, no amount of raging on the forums is gonna get it to us faster.

Malpherian · January 2015

@Kraven
As long as they get spell-crafting in, which will finally allow us to do what they promised from the beginning which was "Play the way you want". I'll be ok with most of the other stuff taking awhile.

Rioht · January 2015

Ysne58 wrote: »

I have talked to one ps4 player who has decided not to get the game because of ZOS misleading it's current player base. If there are enough people out there who are basing their decision on the lack of integrity and ethics, the console market may not do as well as ZOS thinks it will.

It may or may not, but lying to your customers always comes back to bite you one way or another.

Too bad your 1 ps4 player doesnt represent the entire gaming population eh?

I am a ps4 player and will be transfering to console for day 1 of release.

Now we can be certain that 50% of ps4 players will get eso. Wow statistics!

Malpherian · January 2015

I'll wait until the game is actually finished and polished before I switch to PS4.

Rescorla_ESO · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

List of MMORPG games which are skill systems and not class based (Note that Skill based games may include "Classes" but they are not Restrictive and allow the slotting of ANY skill regardless of the original class you chose, they are "Open" to such a degree that what class you chose, does not matter in the slightest):

Path of Exhile
EvE Online <<< 13 years going strong this game is older then WoW.
Perpetuum <<< 7 Years Going strong (Low pop though)
Rift <<< *** Game, but people still play it 6 years after release
Asherons Call
Archeage <<<< Massive game, Loads of people play this, tons of servers.
The Repopulation <<<< Archeage in Scifi Currently in Beta
SWG (Before SOE ruined it) <<< One of the Original Classless Games, Currently Dead. Had a good run until SOE killed it though.

(Several Indie Games, too many to list some of which are now AAA Titles).

But yea that's just a small sampling. There are a ton of them.

Apparently you have never played Rift or Archeage. Those are pure class based systems and the abilities available to you are limited by your choice of classes.

Rescorla_ESO · January 2015

Kraven wrote: »

I do have to say, OP you might have just a bit too much rage fueled passion on this subject.

.

What you see in this thread is exactly the same as his posting history in closed beta in the Psijic Order forums.

morvegil · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

Since 1.6 is going to be your last big update, are you essentially saying that this required and needed feature is no longer on the table? Because if that's the case I am un-subbing right now and demanding a full refund from my CC company, for the game, and every dime I have spent on it, as you have not and are not delivering the product which you promised you would. (Which seems to be a pattern of yours).

And Yes I can do this and it will be refunded, as this was stated as a Will be added feature which was promised over 6 months ago (Among other promises that you have failed to deliver and reniged on). And has not yet been added.

So Zennimax, did you lie to your consumers about future content? Yet again? or is this going to be added after 1.6? You should also note that you are going to lose most of (the rest) of your player base if this is not added.

B2P wont even save this game then.

This game, could be great, I've always said that. The ESO franchise is Unique and open for the market, you could make billions, if only you all would get your collective heads out of your *&^holes.

* Your design principles is what caused the game to fail at launch.
* Your inability to listen to the players in alpha and Beta caused the masses not to purchase your game.
* Your continuing denial that your screwing up, is causing you even more damage.

DO NOT, fail. In this. Or the next game you release will flop before it even makes it off the shelf. DO NOT become another EA.

You wont get a refund. You're not a lawyer.

darthbelanb14_ESO · January 2015

You can't demand a refund on your game based on a feature they said they would work on, which they announced a few months after release. You didn't buy the game knowing they would work on spell crafting. Your argument is totally baseless.

renton1x1x1 · January 2015

Divinius wrote: »

Time to post this again...

Every time someone on these forums uses the word "Promised" god kills a kitten.

Please, think of the kittens.

Nowhere, in ANY of those links, did anyone from ZOS ever say they "promised" anything.

Proposed, planned, intended, expected... sure, all of those things. But they never "promised" anything. Please stop using that word. It just makes you look overly entitled.

this

Yasha · January 2015

I keep reading people on this forum saying how mature the ESO community is......

rawne1980b16_ESO · January 2015

Malpherian wrote: »

The "Classes" and their limitations and requirement to re-roll a character, was the reason the masses didn't sub after beta and the reason the release utterly flopped.

Bovine excrement.

The reason a lot of us stopped playing was because it was an unfinished game. It had hardly anything to do with the classes.

Missing guilds (Dark Brotherhood and Thieves), buggy content, lack of auction house (some people quit over it, can't say I blame them i've never bought anything off another player due to lack of that basic feature), constant nerfs to classes (Ebonheart lost a couple of guilds due to some nerfs, one of the guilds moved to ArcheAge) etc etc. Some people left because VR ranks were grindy and expected them to do content they didn't like (it was one of the 2 reasons I quit originally. I hate AD zones with a passion and my Daggerfall character was sent there when it hit VR1 so I abandoned it but lost any motivation to level an alt knowing i'd have to do it eventually). Some people left because they were bored (and this was the second reason I left).

Some people love the game and for that i'm grateful to them, no sarcasm. I think the game has potential but I wasn't prepared to wait for it when I have other games I also play that I enjoyed more. Without the people that love this game it wouldn't have had a chance and that would have been a shame.

That said, I don't recall a single person quitting because of spell crafting.

We asked for it but a hell of a lot of us weren't bothered about waiting.

One missing feature did not cause people to leave. It was a combination of a few things.