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Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?
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LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭IMO things like XP boosts are in the grey area of the P2W discussion. They said the DB and thieves guild will be DLC, this worries me considering we know they will have skill lines with active and passive skills like the Mage's guild and Fighter's guild do now. I consider paying for access to a skill line that's not otherwise obtainable P2W no matter how you look at it.
The Imp edition set the precedent for things like that happening.Edited by LtCrunch on January 25, 2015 10:45AMNerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/162 -
Nathan✭IMO things like XP boosts are in the grey area of the P2W discussion. They said the DB and thieves guild will be DLC, this worries me considering we know they will have skill lines with active and passive skills like the Mage's guild and Fighter's guild do now. I consider paying for access to a skill line that's not otherwise obtainable P2W no matter how you look at it.
The Imp edition set the precedent for things like that happening.
I don't agree just because a DLC is considered an expansion and, like (almost) any other MMO, you have to pay to get new zones or features. To spend money or Crowns to get a DLC (and DB skill line for example) is a common Pay2Play model.2 -
LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭IMO things like XP boosts are in the grey area of the P2W discussion. They said the DB and thieves guild will be DLC, this worries me considering we know they will have skill lines with active and passive skills like the Mage's guild and Fighter's guild do now. I consider paying for access to a skill line that's not otherwise obtainable P2W no matter how you look at it.
The Imp edition set the precedent for things like that happening.
I don't agree just because a DLC is considered an expansion and, like (almost) any other MMO, you have to pay to get new zones or features. To spend money or Crowns to get a DLC (and DB skill line for example) is a common Pay2Play model.
I'm not sure I understand how it being a common practice doesn't make it pay to win. P2P(aka subscription model) is much, much different in the fact that everyone that plays has access to that content, so nobody gets left behind. This is not the case with the upcoming B2P model. If you don't pay for access to those skill lines you are going to be left behind those that do.
Edited by LtCrunch on January 25, 2015 11:39AMNerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/162 -
Siluen✭✭✭✭Nearly everything can be considered pay to win if you broaden your definition far enough.
I have seen people claiming the Explorer's Pack from the pre-order was pay to win because it would yield you treasure maps with a few pieces of gear in it. I have also seen people calling the Imperial Edition horse and the basic online store horse pay to win because, I kid you not, one would be able to get to nodes faster...
I think 10% extra xp is not that huge a difference, especially when comparing it to some other games with the option of premium accounts. When looking at an hour and two people grinding their butts off for xp; the one without ESO plus would have to spend only 6 more minutes to get the same amount.
10% is not too big an advantage and I would personally not call it pay to win.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I would like to pose a question to anyone defending "boosters" & items that "shortcut time":
What makes your time/efforts more important & valuable than ours?
Think of that for a second and get back to me.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 12:01PM6 -
B2P/F2P Call it what you want, its all a bunch of Micro transactions breaking up content/items into purchasable chunks.
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There have been people with an XP boost in the game since Early Access, and no one claimed it was any kind of substantive advantage after seeing it in action. Plenty of people wailed and beat their chests about it before it was implemented, but the Rings of Mara have proven to be mostly useless, certainly not providing anyone with enough of an advantage that one would consider it "winning".----
Murray?5 -
Siluen✭✭✭✭I would like to pose a question to anyone defending "boosters" & items that "shortcut time":
What makes your time/efforts more important & valuable than ours?
Think of that for a second and get back to me.
Nobody is claiming their time and effort are more valuable than anyone else's, so I doubt you are going to receive an answer.Edited by Siluen on January 25, 2015 12:37PM2 -
VileIntent✭✭✭✭Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?
Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.
its a b2p game now with a store... they have to have a reason to draw you back to the store... increase xp and offer a xp boost item is very standard in all most all f2p and b2p games and NO it is not a p2w item. if it was for AP then it would be p2w.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I would like to pose a question to anyone defending "boosters" & items that "shortcut time":
What makes your time/efforts more important & valuable than ours?
Think of that for a second and get back to me.
Nobody is claiming their time and effort are more valuable than anyone else's, so I doubt you are going to receive an answer.
Then why do they think it is ok to save time, gold, crafting time etc for $$$?
Wouldn't that by definition make their time "more valuable" than other customers?
You can probably see where I'm getting at.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 12:48PM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VileIntent wrote: »Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?
Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.
its a b2p game now with a store... they have to have a reason to draw you back to the store... increase xp and offer a xp boost item is very standard in all most all f2p and b2p games and NO it is not a p2w item. if it was for AP then it would be p2w.
It's funny how everyone has their own definition what kind of an "advantage providing item" is P2W.
Could we just agree that in general, they all are (even if you disagree with a particular one)?
The only way to provide a fair environment for everyone, is to not give advantages for $$$ at all.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 12:52PM6 -
SoonerMagicEE wrote: »FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.
They also said that they'd never change the subscription model, so there you go...3 -
cesmode✭✭✭It is not pay to win. Its more pay for convenience.
You cannot buy a set of BiS gear with crowns. You cannot buy extra power.
You can buy shortcuts via potions(which honestly, won't be a huge increase), but you still have to play the same game as everyone else.
GW2 has had XP boosters, as well as PVP influence boosters, etc...since day one. No one calls it pay to win on these grounds.
Edited by cesmode on January 25, 2015 12:55PM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It is not pay to win. Its more pay for convenience.
You cannot buy a set of BiS gear with crowns. You cannot buy extra power.
You can buy shortcuts via potions(which honestly, won't be a huge increase), but you still have to play the same game as everyone else.
GW2 has had XP boosters, as well as PVP influence boosters, etc...since day one. No one calls it pay to win on these grounds.
I call GW2 pay to win, as do many other people who no longer play that garbage.
In fact, GW2 has many other things considered P2W, such as purchases that directly or indirectly change gems to gold.6 -
Maybe not P2W yet, but Ill get every thing conveniently faster than the freebies.It is not pay to win. Its more pay for convenience.
You cannot buy a set of BiS gear with crowns. You cannot buy extra power.
You can buy shortcuts via potions(which honestly, won't be a huge increase), but you still have to play the same game as everyone else.
GW2 has had XP boosters, as well as PVP influence boosters, etc...since day one. No one calls it pay to win on these grounds.
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Shinra✭✭✭I call GW2 pay to win, as do many other people who no longer play that garbage.
In fact, GW2 has many other things considered P2W, such as purchases that directly or indirectly change gems to gold.
I wouldn't call any game I once liked "garbage"...
Does it have p2w elements? yes. Is it "garbage"? no. It is as easy as that.
Games aren't evil just because they have p2w elements.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I call GW2 pay to win, as do many other people who no longer play that garbage.
In fact, GW2 has many other things considered P2W, such as purchases that directly or indirectly change gems to gold.
I wouldn't call any game I once liked "garbage"...
Does it have p2w elements? yes. Is it "garbage"? no. It is as easy as that.
Games aren't evil just because they have p2w elements.
Who said I liked it? I played it for a week (I was fooled by the reviews) and quit due to overly casual focus, lack of end game & holy trinity.
And intrusive p2w Cash Shop (which has only gotten worse, no surprise).Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 1:17PM3 -
cesmode✭✭✭SoonerMagicEE wrote: »FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.
Untrue. They said some items will be only available in the store, some only in game, some in both.
Im an advocate for the change, but some things will only be available via crowns. And thats fine.
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The term Pay2Win has gotten so ridiculous that people include XP boosts. First, P2W doesn't exist in PvE, ever. You can't win in PvE, and it's an individual's experience, why should you care how I spend my personal time in ESO?
In PvP the term P2W means that an individual has a significant advantage over another player. XP boosts do not give that significant advantage. Unless you're max level/cp then you're always going to face higher tiered players. Besides that everyone is, at least, boosted to level 50.4 -
Razzak✭✭✭✭✭So Rings of Mara, in your opinion, were Pay2Win ingame objects too...
The game is not going P2W actually unless ZOS decide to put in the Crown store gear and/or weapons and/or skill lines that really aren't available playing the game.
If you can buy through Crown store potions that you can get in game it's just a time saving option.
It's the same story of players who play a lot and get best gear through Trials or PVP that other players who play just during w/e can't get for now...
It's not only if cash shop items give you an advantage over in game crafted ones when you buy them. It's also about the fact that cash shop items could make crafted ones obsolete or useless. Simply by scaling, which crafted ones do not.
You will buy health potions at lvl 20 but use them all the way to lvl 50 as they scale with you. Why would anyone buy crafted ones?
Crafted potions are limited to every 10 levels, which could make them special potions to use only around those levels. In between those levels, you might be better off with cash shop ones.
So, will this affect crafting?
I don't think this will affect crafting, because gold is a currency you can get in game (even farm it) and spend with no problem buying potion crafted when you need it; Crowns is a currency you can't farm in game, so I think people will save Crowns for DLC/Costumes/Mounts or everything else you can't get normally playing the game.
True, if crowns would be bought by sub alone. Meaning you get limited amount of them. If, on the other hand, you can spend unlimited amounts of real money to buy potions, you negate that stance.0 -
Humanistic✭✭✭✭It is pay to win - it doesn't matter how you want to explain it to yourself so you can understand; that's not going to change what it is.
Companies like this have a tendency to stretch the truth. What it always comes down to, is time. Does it take less time or more time to do things to get to the end, or "win" as you would say.
The answer is yes, the game is pay to win - but that is overshadowed by all the cosmetic items you will be able to buy. If you couldn't buy potions or soul gems on the fly from the in-game store, then you would essentially be surviving less, and having to take time from your character progression to go back to town and re-stock (this is how things work right now). But when you don't have to do that, then your progression can never stop, because you simply never die with your stock of pots - and should that happen, you can just buy a soul gem (from the in-game store) and use that while out questing or delving. It takes less time to not ever have to go back to town to restock, it is a convenience thing, yes - but it is also a very small form of pay to win.
This is why it's always a good idea to get extra quarters before you start playing a game at the arcade. If you don't, then you take that risk of losing your progression, which will cost you more money in the long run (and also, time).
The only good thing about all of this, is the devs said that crafted player potions will still be the strongest in the game. The soul gems still remain, but yes on some level, it is pay to win. it's just that no one ever sees it that way because it's very subtle.4 -
Nijjion✭✭✭✭It's a saving time convenience, not really an combat advantage (not B2W) as someone who buys the XP boost will be on the equal terms with someone who's on the same champ level.
Getting the boost gives no combat advantage just getting stuff quicker.
League of legends has had xp boosts/rune point boosts for years now and if you would call that P2W for that you would be laughed at.Edited by Nijjion on January 25, 2015 1:41PMNijjijjioN - DK - AR27NijjioN - NB -Daggerfall CovenantThe Nice Guys GuildEverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->
Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.2 -
cesmode✭✭✭Humanistic wrote: »It is pay to win - it doesn't matter how you want to explain it to yourself so you can understand; that's not going to change what it is.
Companies like this have a tendency to stretch the truth. What it always comes down to, is time. Does it take less time or more time to do things to get to the end, or "win" as you would say.
The answer is yes, the game is pay to win - but that is overshadowed by all the cosmetic items you will be able to buy. If you couldn't buy potions or soul gems on the fly from the in-game store, then you would essentially be surviving less, and having to take time from your character progression to go back to town and re-stock (this is how things work right now). But when you don't have to do that, then your progression can never stop, because you simply never die with your stock of pots - and should that happen, you can just buy a soul gem (from the in-game store) and use that while out questing or delving. It takes less time to not ever have to go back to town to restock, it is a convenience thing, yes - but it is also a very small form of pay to win.
This is why it's always a good idea to get extra quarters before you start playing a game at the arcade. If you don't, then you take that risk of losing your progression, which will cost you more money in the long run (and also, time).
The only good thing about all of this, is the devs said that crafted player potions will still be the strongest in the game. The soul gems still remain, but yes on some level, it is pay to win. it's just that no one ever sees it that way because it's very subtle.
Listen to yourself.
Question: Can you purchase more power, more attack power, more magicka points, more skill points, or Best in Slot gear via the crown store?
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darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »The term Pay2Win has gotten so ridiculous that people include XP boosts. First, P2W doesn't exist in PvE, ever. You can't win in PvE, and it's an individual's experience, why should you care how I spend my personal time in ESO?
In PvP the term P2W means that an individual has a significant advantage over another player. XP boosts do not give that significant advantage. Unless you're max level/cp then you're always going to face higher tiered players. Besides that everyone is, at least, boosted to level 50.
What if my wife and I have Rings of Mara and the exp booster(20%+) + easy access potions and Enlightenment.
Will we not get champion pts faster gaining more power than the freebies?2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's a saving time convenience, not really an combat advantage (not B2W) as someone who buys the XP boost will be on the equal terms with someone who's on the same champ level.
Getting the boost gives no combat advantage just getting stuff quicker.
League of legends has had xp boosts/rune point boosts for years now and if you would call that P2W for that you would be laughed at.
Except that you wont be at the same champ level, the person buying those potions will have 10% more of champion points, assuming you were equally skilled & dedicated before.
No matter what you're paying for, if it gives you any kind of an advantage over other people, it means you pay more to win more (P2W).
I don't understand how people still cant understand it.
What makes your, @Nijjion, time & efforts more valuable & important than those who don't want to/can't spend hundreds of $$$ on booster potions?Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 1:46PM6 -
Nijjion✭✭✭✭@DDuke As I've said on a previous post a few days ago to you P2W is something different you will need to coin it a different term than that.
As a champ level 1000 with xp boost will be on exactly the same combat effectiveness as someone who doesn't have xp boost as it champ level 1000.
Sure there is a time advantage on how quick you will get that champ level, but that isn't B2W. Never has been in the past. Granted there is maybe a threshhold of I would say 25-50% xp boost for subs only would maybe change my mind... but 10% na.Edited by Nijjion on January 25, 2015 1:54PMNijjijjioN - DK - AR27NijjioN - NB -Daggerfall CovenantThe Nice Guys GuildEverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->
Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.0 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rift started as a subscription game. It switched to a cash shop that the devs and fanbois swear isn't P2W. Yet the PvP is bracketed and you can BUY weapons, armor and buffs for your character regardless of level.
The idea is supported because you "shouldn't" have to spend "time" in pvp in order to be "competitive". So you can just buy the gear with Gems (same thing as crowns) and instantly be competitive in PvP or raids. They say it's "ok" and that it's not P2W because this gear is only "slightly" less powerful than the gear you actually have to earn.
The remaining (<---Key word there) Rift community defends this cash shop. I hated it with a passion.
So in time, this game will start offering weapons and armor and there will be some kind of veiled excuse about how it isn't P2W. But at the end of the day if you can buy purple gear with a credit card, that is straight up P2W in my book. And there will always be those that defend it like this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j4li_pRZKk Edited by Alphashado on January 25, 2015 2:20PM3 -
Humanistic wrote: »The answer is yes, the game is pay to win - but that is overshadowed by all the cosmetic items you will be able to buy. If you couldn't buy potions or soul gems on the fly from the in-game store, then you would essentially be surviving less, and having to take time from your character progression to go back to town and re-stock (this is how things work right now). But when you don't have to do that, then your progression can never stop, because you simply never die with your stock of pots - and should that happen, you can just buy a soul gem (from the in-game store) and use that while out questing or delving. It takes less time to not ever have to go back to town to restock, it is a convenience thing, yes - but it is also a very small form of pay to win.
That doesn't affect your enjoyment of the game, and your speaking of PvE. There is no winning in PvE.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke As I've said on a previous post a few days ago to you P2W is something different you will need to coin it a different term than that.
As a champ level 1000 with xp boost will be on exactly the same combat effectiveness as someone who doesn't have xp boost as it champ level 1000.
Sure there is a time advantage on how quick you will get that champ level, but that isn't B2W. Never has been in the past.
It has been, in pretty much every F2P & B2P MMOs out there. Which is just one of the reasons why people don't like them.
You can't come up with arbitrary decisions on "what is P2W & what is not", and because of that everything that someone considers "P2W" should be carefully examined whether it grants an advantage & makes an unhealthy environment for those players.
As long as these players feel they have to spend $$$ to be "as good" as others, P2W exists (whether you are one of these players or not).Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 2:03PM3
