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By going B2P ESO has REALLY increased their competition
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't trust any of these companies or MMOs coming out. In fact, most of them share the same B2P/F2P payment model ESO will.
I think this describes how I'm feeling:
What was to be my home for years to come has been burned to cinders, and only hobos are going to populate it now.
I'm left in the middle of a desert of burning wreckages & creaking hovels that scream of danger, trying to find a new place to stay, but there is nothing in the horizon.
You could always try Darkfall Unholy Wars. It looks a lot like ESO in terms of design and its (still) subscription based.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO-ubExGedw
But I completely feel you. For me it's not the MMO I wanted it was a living, growing, breathing Tamriel. Not a theme park with tickets, tokens and lines.
I'd have gone back to WoW long time ago (used to be a big fan), but being a completionist (and extremely competitive player), I can't really bear the thought of seeing people with 7+ years worth of experience/skill & achievements/gear over me.
At this point, I just wish CD Projekt Red would make a MMO.
They are the only company a gamer can trust these days.Edited by DDuke on January 24, 2015 6:52PM2 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭they always had the f2p competition anyways.
if you really think more than 0.0001% of Players stayed because they were allowed to pay monthly and therefor felt to be part of something, i dont know what to say..
they stayed for other reasons, or they left.0 -
Khami✭✭✭✭I feel like I've been paying ZoS to beta test for the consoles since early access last year.7 -
eisberg✭✭✭
If CD projekt was to make an mmo i guarantee they would make it buy to play or free to play because those guys are smart and they would see the trend of subscription model failing. also I would bet they would make it something like Guild Wars 2 model. going for subscription model it's stupid and really makes no business sense at all.Edited by eisberg on January 24, 2015 7:26PM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
If CD projekt was to make an mmo i guarantee they would make it buy to play or free to play because those guys are smart and they would see the trend of subscription model failing. also I would bet they would make it something like Guild Wars 2 model. going for subscription model it's stupid and really makes no business sense at all.
You have not played many of their games then?
They don't care about $$$, they care about making quality games. Money follows afterwards, because people enjoy their games.
They are always gamer first, and refuse to partake in common shady practices such as Day-1 DLC or pre-order bonuses., so I doubt they'd partake in the F2P/B2P scam either.
Their biggest IP Witcher is huge, yet they refuse to sell their soul for money. In fact, all DLC to the third game will be free.
I have nothing but love towards this company... in case of Zenimax Media Inc, you could already see them getting hungry for that $$$ when they published Skyrim, simplified & dumbed down to roll in as much $$$ as possible at the cost of game quality (just compare it to Morrowind/Oblivion...)Edited by DDuke on January 24, 2015 7:43PM6 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It is better to be in competition with those games than to be in a dying model that is pretty much dominated by WoW.
EDIT:
The fact that GW2 just revealed an expansion pack is not going to be good for ESO, depending on when it releases compared to the TU. That is definitely going to up the ante on competition. ZOS might want to hire an extra team of developers to start getting DLC ready faster.Edited by timidobserver on January 24, 2015 7:52PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Regarding the "subscriptions" are DEAD idea--maybe for now, but the more F2P/B2P competition there is, the smaller the (admittedly HUGE) pool of players that can be milked, the shorter they will stay as new games emerge, and the thinner the margins (and the worse the shilling as games seek to make up money from smaller pools of suckers, which then reduces the player base more, and on and on).
Eventually, it WILL get to the point that some SUB games become viable again. As more and more F2P games enter the market, the slice of the player-pool (and the money they can expect to make from the smaller sub-section of players that actually put in money) will dwindle, making the fixed sub model, with it's fixed money-influx, a contender again.
At least I hope so. I think there's always going to be a fixed number of quality conscious players who prefer the sub model. We just need to wait for the inevitable shake-down to occur.This message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your subscription to The Elder Scrolls Online. You will no longer be charged for a subscription on a recurring basis, and your access to the game will expire at the end of your current subscription cycle.
We're sad to see you go now, but we'll be happy to welcome you back at any time! Whenever you're ready to come back, your characters will be waiting for you, just like you left them. You can return anytime by resubscribing on the Manage Subscription page on your Elder Scrolls Online account.
Please print this email and keep it for your records.1 -
daneyulebub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Camelot Unchained should be mentioned here, too. Google it. The developer's vision and promises on what the game will be are amazing. This is what an MMO should be. Hope it doesn't turn out to be vaporware.This message confirms that you have successfully cancelled your subscription to The Elder Scrolls Online. You will no longer be charged for a subscription on a recurring basis, and your access to the game will expire at the end of your current subscription cycle.
We're sad to see you go now, but we'll be happy to welcome you back at any time! Whenever you're ready to come back, your characters will be waiting for you, just like you left them. You can return anytime by resubscribing on the Manage Subscription page on your Elder Scrolls Online account.
Please print this email and keep it for your records.1 -
BlueIllyrian✭✭✭daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »Regarding the "subscriptions" are DEAD idea--maybe for now, but the more F2P/B2P competition there is, the smaller the (admittedly HUGE) pool of players that can be milked, the shorter they will stay as new games emerge, and the thinner the margins (and the worse the shilling as games seek to make up money from smaller pools of suckers, which then reduces the player base more, and on and on).
Eventually, it WILL get to the point that some SUB games become viable again. As more and more F2P games enter the market, the slice of the player-pool (and the money they can expect to make from the smaller sub-section of players that actually put in money) will dwindle, making the fixed sub model, with it's fixed money-influx, a contender again.
At least I hope so. I think there's always going to be a fixed number of quality conscious players who prefer the sub model. We just need to wait for the inevitable shake-down to occur.
Subscription is dead for has-beens only, no AAA title went from P2P to F2P if it wasn't a failure and/or dated.
B2P/F2P is perfectly fine for games that are built for such a model.
Edited by BlueIllyrian on January 25, 2015 12:46PM4 -
Arato✭✭✭✭✭
✭You felt PRIDE over buying a game and subbing?
Don't be ridiculous.
Only thing I felt from paying my sub every month is an OBLIGATION to play the game, even if I didn't feel like it at the time, because I'm spending money on it.
I also felt like I was being hustled, because even if I buy things in GW2's gem store, I spend less than $15 a month (maybe $10 every other month or so), and I spend way more hours in GW2, plus whatever I bought in the GW2 gem store, I get to use, like, a new outfit/cosmetic armor set, or a new infinite use mining pick or a new mini pet, etc, all while I got to log in and play for no cost at all.
Here I fork over more money, and get nothing to show for it. Why?
Because here at ESO they announced they're going to turn the entire character progression system on its head.. so I didn't want to get too invested into the Veteran Rank system only for it to change so drastically on me.
I'm glad the system is going to change and I can't wait to get back to playing regularly, but feeling PRIDE at being hustled every month for a subscription?
Give me a break.
B2P is an infinitely better system than Subscription.
I'm actually excited for the B2P switch. Most of my favorite online RPG's have been B2P, not subscription.
Diablo 2, Diablo 3, Guild Wars, and Guild Wars 2. All provided thousands of hours of entertainment without a subscription at reasonable costs.
Meanwhile I shudder to think about how much money I spent on playing WoW for 2 years. LotRO is kind of a mix because I got a lifetime account and in the long run it more than paid for itself.
Feeling pride and exclusivity about being hoodwinked... now I've heard everything.9 -
KhajitFurTrader✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm sure I'd love to play Firefly Online, but I'm also sure that it'll be canceled after only one season. It will then be relaunched as Serenity Online, kill off a few main story characters, and then quietly fade into oblivion.
Oh, wait, off topic.
Has going B2P increased ESO's competition? Not really, if people really want to play a game, the payment model is of less concern. Having (or making) time to play is more important. That's why Firefly Online won't see me as a customer, I'm too busy with ESO... and other stuff.3 -
Arato✭✭✭✭✭
✭By the way, B2P is a much smaller club than Subscription or F2P models.
The only B2P MMO's that I know of are Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, and The Secret World.
From my experience with GW and GW2, and from everything I hear about TSW, that's a pretty good company to be in. IMO I consider TESO and GW2 to be the most forward thinking MMO's on the market. Both games are pushing into the future with account based horizontal character progression instead of character based vertical progression, which is a big plus for me.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You felt PRIDE over buying a game and subbing?
Don't be ridiculous.
Only thing I felt from paying my sub every month is an OBLIGATION to play the game, even if I didn't feel like it at the time, because I'm spending money on it.
I also felt like I was being hustled, because even if I buy things in GW2's gem store, I spend less than $15 a month (maybe $10 every other month or so), and I spend way more hours in GW2, plus whatever I bought in the GW2 gem store, I get to use, like, a new outfit/cosmetic armor set, or a new infinite use mining pick or a new mini pet, etc, all while I got to log in and play for no cost at all.
Here I fork over more money, and get nothing to show for it. Why?
Because here at ESO they announced they're going to turn the entire character progression system on its head.. so I didn't want to get too invested into the Veteran Rank system only for it to change so drastically on me.
I'm glad the system is going to change and I can't wait to get back to playing regularly, but feeling PRIDE at being hustled every month for a subscription?
Give me a break.
B2P is an infinitely better system than Subscription.
I'm actually excited for the B2P switch. Most of my favorite online RPG's have been B2P, not subscription.
Diablo 2, Diablo 3, Guild Wars, and Guild Wars 2. All provided thousands of hours of entertainment without a subscription at reasonable costs.
Meanwhile I shudder to think about how much money I spent on playing WoW for 2 years. LotRO is kind of a mix because I got a lifetime account and in the long run it more than paid for itself.
Feeling pride and exclusivity about being hoodwinked... now I've heard everything.
B2P is a scam, just like F2P.
Why do you think they changed the model? It's to milk more money out of you & other players (especially the ones that play a lot).
I can see the only ones enjoying B2P being the so-called "gamers" that play a couple hours a week & purchase a fancy pony or costume, who don't care about frequent (and meaningful) content updates, because those don't fit their play schedule anyhow.
But I guess B2P is a cheaper version for them (you do belong in this category, right?), and now provides a cheaper experience for everyone (not only them).
This has already been proven by less frequent content deliveries (geared towards the ultra-casuals with scaling content, a la GW2), "shortcuts" in Cash Shop & overall dumbing down of the game.
It's like dining in a fine restaurant (subscription) to dining in some trashy kiosk (B2P/F2P). Sure, the other one might be cheaper, but so is the experience.
But hey, enjoy "Skyrim with friends".Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 1:08PM8 -
Arato✭✭✭✭✭
✭B2P is a scam, just like F2P.
Why do you think they changed the model? It's to milk more money out of you & other players (especially the ones that play a lot).
I can see the only ones enjoying B2P being the so-called "gamers" that play a couple hours a week & purchase a fancy pony or costume, who don't care about frequent (and meaningful) content updates, because those don't fit their play schedule anyhow.
But I guess B2P is a cheaper version for them (you do belong in this category, right?), and now provides a cheaper experience for everyone (not only them).
This has already been proven by less frequent content deliveries (geared towards the ultra-casuals with scaling content, a la GW2), "shortcuts" in Cash Shop & overall dumbing down of the game.
It's like dining in a fine restaurant (subscription) to dining in some trashy kiosk (B2P/F2P). Sure, the other one might be cheaper, but so is the experience.
But hey, enjoy "Skyrim with friends".
You're full of it.
GW1 got 3 full campaigns and an expansion within 3 years. It only stopped that pace because the expansion was actually going to be a 4th campaign but they had ideas that they wanted to do and ended up deciding to create a sequel instead of another campaign. Guild Wars 2 has had content updates every 2-4 weeks for 2 and a half years, and just announced a full fledged expansion with major character progression system update yesterday.
I can't personally vouch for the Secret World as I haven't played it, but considering they are selling content updates as their main source of revenue (as TESO is going to) I'd assume they make quite a few new content packs.
Our sub by no means increases the frequency at which we get content updates, not at all.
I've spent thousands of hours in both GW1 and GW2, I've done all the content that there is to do in GW1, and I've done pretty much everything up to date in GW2 as well I generally spend about 4 hours a day in GW2. I've done end game progression raiding in multiple other games in the past as well.
Subscription has never to me, felt that it has been a good system for the customer economically. I have experience in F2P, Subscription, and B2P games and I can say hands down that B2P is the most fair model for the customer while also having enough of a barrier to keep the worst of the trash out of the game (IE people get banned and can't just make a new F2P account). I can't name a single advantage of an obligatory subscription model, not one. It does not provide more frequent content updates. It does not provide better customer support, it does not provide for a more mature or enjoyable community.
If you were arguing F2P? I'd agree. F2P is a trash system designed to give you a crippled version of the game and make you pay to have a functioning version, and generally pay more than the sub cost.
But B2P is great.7 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭B2P is a scam, just like F2P.
Why do you think they changed the model? It's to milk more money out of you & other players (especially the ones that play a lot).
I can see the only ones enjoying B2P being the so-called "gamers" that play a couple hours a week & purchase a fancy pony or costume, who don't care about frequent (and meaningful) content updates, because those don't fit their play schedule anyhow.
But I guess B2P is a cheaper version for them (you do belong in this category, right?), and now provides a cheaper experience for everyone (not only them).
This has already been proven by less frequent content deliveries (geared towards the ultra-casuals with scaling content, a la GW2), "shortcuts" in Cash Shop & overall dumbing down of the game.
It's like dining in a fine restaurant (subscription) to dining in some trashy kiosk (B2P/F2P). Sure, the other one might be cheaper, but so is the experience.
But hey, enjoy "Skyrim with friends".
You're full of it.
- snip -
You mean Guild Wars 1 & 2, with the amazing end game that keeps people playing?
You mean the games that add one 3-hour long quest every few weeks?
Or an expansion you finish in 2-3 days?
The ones that sell you everything from boosters to bank space in Cash Shop, and make it so grindy otherwise that it hurts your brain?
Those games?
As I said, scams.7 -
wiz12268b14_ESO✭✭✭Developers are countermanding the pay type of games by makingmore specific types of games.
You see it already, zombie apocalypse survival games ( too many already and theyre seemingly brand new), the next great PvP game, the next great 'sandbox' game, the next SWG, the next great (pick a fanbois fantasy game) clone game.
Pay methds are all going to be the same eventually, it will be the style and archetype of game that will be the appeal. So ESO is a high fantasy quest driven game, Black desert will be a 'sandbox' PvP type Korean grinder, Camelot Unchained looks to be PvP focused, as does Gloria victus and a few others are also starting to focus more on PvP. Big mistake IMO but they all thin they can reinvent the wheel and make a system no one has ever been able to do correctly so be it.
But in the minds of developers, creators and publishers these games arent in direct competition with each other. Not every MMO s meant o be played by everyone who calls themselves and MMO player. And that is going to become more and more apparent. And it is also why different sectors of the MMO player base 'hate' on games, because they think every game should include things THEY personally like about any MMO that happens to be made. But thats exactly why many games are omitting those things because theyre not important to the game (and playerbase) the developer is looking to attract. It obviously limits the player base as a whole, which is always tricky, but it can also build a much more loyal (and willing to spend) playerbase that can keep their little indie niche game profitable for along time.1 -
Arato✭✭✭✭✭
✭B2P is a scam, just like F2P.
Why do you think they changed the model? It's to milk more money out of you & other players (especially the ones that play a lot).
I can see the only ones enjoying B2P being the so-called "gamers" that play a couple hours a week & purchase a fancy pony or costume, who don't care about frequent (and meaningful) content updates, because those don't fit their play schedule anyhow.
But I guess B2P is a cheaper version for them (you do belong in this category, right?), and now provides a cheaper experience for everyone (not only them).
This has already been proven by less frequent content deliveries (geared towards the ultra-casuals with scaling content, a la GW2), "shortcuts" in Cash Shop & overall dumbing down of the game.
It's like dining in a fine restaurant (subscription) to dining in some trashy kiosk (B2P/F2P). Sure, the other one might be cheaper, but so is the experience.
But hey, enjoy "Skyrim with friends".
You're full of it.
- snip -
You mean Guild Wars 1 & 2, with the amazing end game that keeps people playing?
You mean the games that add one 3-hour long quest every few weeks?
Or an expansion you finish in 2-3 days?
The ones that sell you everything from boosters to bank space in Cash Shop, and make it so grindy otherwise that it hurts your brain?
Those games?
As I said, scams.
People still play GW1 actually, which had high end PVE, and competitive PVP (though since the game is really old the status of PVP of course has declined)
In GW2, People do scale 50 fractals, Triple Trouble wurms, and Tequatl every day, and honestly the real endgame is WvW and PVP. Similar to here, WvW and Cyrodiil that is.
A scam, is F2P, B2P is honest. You pay for content, not the service.
Sub is closer to a scam than B2P.
B2P they make content, and sell you content, you buy content, and you play it.
Sub is like, racketeering really, it's like paying protection money to the mob. You're not buying a product they're selling you, you're paying for a service, and they can vary that service as they wish. If they want, they can string you along with promises of how good this service is going to be, with "roadmaps of the future" and promised content updates.
But they're not REALLY motivated to hurry up with content because you're already paying them on schedule anyway. As long as they can string you along to keep paying, that's all that matters.
But if their main form of revenue is selling you content.. they'll probably be quite motivated to make new content to sell to you. I saw at least 3 different areas they want to sell to us as DLC in the near future.
Now F2P? That's the worst scam.
They tell you the rent at your apartment is free, and they even offer free protection services. But they send a goon to your house to break your legs, and then the doctor charges you money to fix your legs so you can walk again. The doctor is of course under the employ of the mob. Without analogy, they give you a crippled game and make you pay to uncripple it.3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭B2P is a scam, just like F2P.
Why do you think they changed the model? It's to milk more money out of you & other players (especially the ones that play a lot).
I can see the only ones enjoying B2P being the so-called "gamers" that play a couple hours a week & purchase a fancy pony or costume, who don't care about frequent (and meaningful) content updates, because those don't fit their play schedule anyhow.
But I guess B2P is a cheaper version for them (you do belong in this category, right?), and now provides a cheaper experience for everyone (not only them).
This has already been proven by less frequent content deliveries (geared towards the ultra-casuals with scaling content, a la GW2), "shortcuts" in Cash Shop & overall dumbing down of the game.
It's like dining in a fine restaurant (subscription) to dining in some trashy kiosk (B2P/F2P). Sure, the other one might be cheaper, but so is the experience.
But hey, enjoy "Skyrim with friends".
You're full of it.
- snip -
You mean Guild Wars 1 & 2, with the amazing end game that keeps people playing?
You mean the games that add one 3-hour long quest every few weeks?
Or an expansion you finish in 2-3 days?
The ones that sell you everything from boosters to bank space in Cash Shop, and make it so grindy otherwise that it hurts your brain?
Those games?
As I said, scams.
People still play GW1 actually, which had high end PVE, and competitive PVP (though since the game is really old the status of PVP of course has declined)
In GW2, People do scale 50 fractals, Triple Trouble wurms, and Tequatl every day, and honestly the real endgame is WvW and PVP. Similar to here, WvW and Cyrodiil that is.
"Triple Trouble wurms" & "50 fractals" sure didn't keep the serious PvErs around for long. I have heard/seen nothing but bad things about GW2s end game.
As for PvP being the "real end game", that's not really true most of the people. Since launch, ESO has seen zero patches for PvP, and the PvE patches we have got haven't been spectacular either.
Why? Because they were creating a Cash Shop & "Skyrim with friends" DLCs, instead of raids & bigger dungeons that entertain people for months (not hours).
They sure did the marketing well though, telling us they were planning to put in "traditional raids", how Murkmire would be released soon after Craglorn etc.
Effectively, they have thrown the end game PvErs under the bus.A scam, is F2P, B2P is honest. You pay for content, not the service.
Sub is closer to a scam than B2P.
B2P they make content, and sell you content, you buy content, and you play it.
They make content (less frequently & more casual oriented), and then they nickel & dime it to you.
What is B2P in the end of the day, once box sales start falling (as happens to every aging game)? Essentially F2P, with the exact same kind of Cash Shop.
ESO is already going to have P2W Cash Shop, just look at their statements about adding "convenience items" that "save time". No F2P required for that.Sub is like, racketeering really, it's like paying protection money to the mob. You're not buying a product they're selling you, you're paying for a service, and they can vary that service as they wish. If they want, they can string you along with promises of how good this service is going to be, with "roadmaps of the future" and promised content updates.
But they're not REALLY motivated to hurry up with content because you're already paying them on schedule anyway. As long as they can string you along to keep paying, that's all that matters.
But if their main form of revenue is selling you content.. they'll probably be quite motivated to make new content to sell to you. I saw at least 3 different areas they want to sell to us as DLC in the near future.
So naive
You are aware that those DLC they promised you were created while we were paying subscription, instead of focusing on content for us? How Cash Shop was created with subscriber money for completely different audience?
It only feels like protection money to the mob, if an actual mob is behind the product.Now F2P? That's the worst scam.
They tell you the rent at your apartment is free, and they even offer free protection services. But they send a goon to your house to break your legs, and then the doctor charges you money to fix your legs so you can walk again. The doctor is of course under the employ of the mob. Without analogy, they give you a crippled game and make you pay to uncripple it.
In the end, depends a lot on the game & company behind it.
There are F2P games with "less scammy" models than some B2P games, but in the end they are all scams.3 -
Arato✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's like you guys don't understand subscriptions and why they became a popular business model for in the eyes of Game Developers in the first place.
See, for game developers outside of MMO's, they bust their butt making a game, they have all nighters and days when they're eating like a college student and sleeping in the office because of time and budget concerns. They finish their game, they sell it, it enjoys about 10 weeks of solid sales before they begin to drop off, maybe they do a bit of patching to fix missed bugs or whatever, and then you know what happens?
They go back to busting their butt to make another game, because the revenue from the last game is already drying up. They go back to sleeping in their clothes in the office and eating Ramen and cold pizza and warm beer.
Now go to an MMO developer, they think, surely there's a better way to continue getting revenue off this game, I mean, it took longer to make than your average game, but nobody will buy it if we charge 4x the cost up front. Aha, I got it, we'll charge them the same price as any other game, and then charge them a monthly subscription on top. We will update the game and explain that their subscription is to cover our server costs and for the updates. Now while this is true, it does not cost 25% of the game's price every month for server costs.
Now an MMO developer busts their butt for a somewhat longer time to make their game (3-5 years or so vs the 1-3 years it might take for other games, with a few exceptions of some non MMO games may take 3-5 years of development as well, TES games for instance, Zelda games as another example, or other big RPG's), they sell the game, and for the first few months they're slammed because they're finishing content that didn't make it in time for launch or fixing major bugs.
Now once the worst of the bugs are squashed and all the content that was supposed to be there at launch is released? (this could be a few months, or it could be a year).. then what happens? Content patches slow down. The money from subscriptions is rolling in whether they release content or not. They can work a lot more leisurely at that point.
That's why it's attractive for developers. Because they want to get to that point where updating the game is done at a more leisurely pace yet they keep getting paid.
Updates for sub games also slow down after the first year typically.WoW went from a patch every other month to quarterly patches until TBC launched. LotRO went from patching every month or two to quarterly patches with yearly expansions which they continue to this day (it might be semi-annual patches now though, since they went F2P)1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's like you guys don't understand subscriptions and why they became a popular business model for in the eyes of Game Developers in the first place.
See, for game developers outside of MMO's, they bust their butt making a game, they have all nighters and days when they're eating like a college student and sleeping in the office because of time and budget concerns. They finish their game, they sell it, it enjoys about 10 weeks of solid sales before they begin to drop off, maybe they do a bit of patching to fix missed bugs or whatever, and then you know what happens?
They go back to busting their butt to make another game, because the revenue from the last game is already drying up. They go back to sleeping in their clothes in the office and eating Ramen and cold pizza and warm beer.
Now go to an MMO developer, they think, surely there's a better way to continue getting revenue off this game, I mean, it took longer to make than your average game, but nobody will buy it if we charge 4x the cost up front. Aha, I got it, we'll charge them the same price as any other game, and then charge them a monthly subscription on top. We will update the game and explain that their subscription is to cover our server costs and for the updates. Now while this is true, it does not cost 25% of the game's price every month for server costs.
Have you considered that the subscription revenue might pay a lot more than just "server costs"?
Unlike single player games, MMOs are constantly evolving and require a big team to work on all aspects of the game, PvP, raids, balance, performance etc etc.
C'mon, I shouldn't need to tell you thisNow an MMO developer busts their butt for a somewhat longer time to make their game (3-5 years or so vs the 1-3 years it might take for other games, with a few exceptions of some non MMO games may take 3-5 years of development as well, TES games for instance, Zelda games as another example, or other big RPG's), they sell the game, and for the first few months they're slammed because they're finishing content that didn't make it in time for launch or fixing major bugs.
Now once the worst of the bugs are squashed and all the content that was supposed to be there at launch is released? (this could be a few months, or it could be a year).. then what happens? Content patches slow down. The money from subscriptions is rolling in whether they release content or not. They can work a lot more leisurely at that point.
As I said, many subscription MMOs fulfill their goals admirably, as long as there's a good company behind them.
That's why it's attractive for developers. Because they want to get to that point where updating the game is done at a more leisurely pace yet they keep getting paid.
Updates for sub games also slow down after the first year typically.WoW went from a patch every other month to quarterly patches until TBC launched. LotRO went from patching every month or two to quarterly patches with yearly expansions which they continue to this day (it might be semi-annual patches now though, since they went F2P)
It depends on the company behind the MMO. Some might not release as much content as they should (because they were working on Cash Shop & DLCs or whatever, as seems to be the trend these days), while others do that admirably.
It's good you brought up vanilla WoW, because at that time they were releasing raids & updates faster than players could clear them.
In vanilla WoW, MC was in at launch, and provided even the fastest people (top guilds out of 7 million people) 5 months of enjoyment. BWL, Naxx, Ahn'Qiraj, all released within 2-3 months of each other and were worth of 2-6 months of enjoyment for players, while they added a lot of Battlegrounds and normal dungeons such as Maraudon, Dire Maul etc.
You literally got content faster than you could consume it, even if you were a more hardcore player that spent a lot of time playing.
Could this be the case for ESO as well, if they had focused on content for subscribers (made by subscriber revenue), instead of making Cash Shop content to sell at a later date? Cash Shop content that not only will cost 20$~, but takes 2-3 days max. to complete?
I do like to think so, but apparently money won over having a quality game.
I do acknowledge that WoW updates slowed down after TBC~, and their focus on having a quality game quickly disappeared after Activision got their claws on the franchise.
Another example of how a good game or franchise can be ruined by a bad company.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 3:37PM0 -
Arato✭✭✭✭✭
✭In the end, depends a lot on the game & company behind it.
There are F2P games with "less scammy" models than some B2P games, but in the end they are all scams.
I have experience with many F2P, sub, and B2P games. Overall, I see B2P as the most honest model.
I have watched content patches slow down after the first year in sub games, meanwhile I'm still paying and not getting anything from it really
I have seen F2P games where they gave you a crippled product that's so restricted it's unplayable, and they offered for $5 you can unlock this functionality that allows you to have a slightly less crippled game! Then another $5, then another $5 then another $5... by the time you'd have a fully functional game as the subscribers used to have it, you've spent about $60-$70 or more. Hell, LotRO screwed over its Lifetime membership holders, by finding ways to make them buy from the cash shop too, constantly raising the level cap and then selling things like stat tomes and legendary relic removing scrolls so that you could use your BIS relics that were no longer attainable in the game They found ways to force you to pay there, even though you'd already paid them $200 at launch in good faith.
The B2P games I've played? Still released content, actually in those 2 cases they released content for free unless it was an expansion pack, which they sold, and which I was perfectly fine for paying for that content. GW2 may not have released a lot of new permanent content (a lot has been temporarily accessible and then removed), but what has been released has been free. if you weren't interested in buying cosmetic items like armor skins and weapon skins or mini pets or pvp finishers, you paid $60 total. Just the box, and the content that was released was free.
Now you're right in that case that content comes in slowly there. Why? Because they're not selling content, they're selling cosmetics in the store (which they do release frequently).
However ZoS seems to be focusing their store on selling CONTENT.
I think both of us should possibly look into the Secret World to see how much content they've gotten since launch, since TSW switched to a B2P model where the main money maker was content packs.
That'll probably give us the best idea of what to expect.
But in theory, it could result in content being released more frequently if that's their biggest money maker.1 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭...
But in theory, it could result in content being released more frequently if that's their biggest money maker.
This is what we all hope... but we all know better to think this is what will actually happen.What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!1 -
Arato✭✭✭✭✭
✭It depends on the company behind the MMO. Some might not release as much content as they should (because they were working on Cash Shop & DLCs or whatever, as seems to be the trend these days), while others do that admirably.
It's good you brought up vanilla WoW, because at that time they were releasing raids & updates faster than players could clear them.
In vanilla WoW, MC was in at launch, and provided even the fastest people (top guilds out of 7 million people) 5 months of enjoyment. BWL, Naxx, Ahn'Qiraj, all released within 2-3 months of each other and were worth of 2-6 months of enjoyment for players, while they added a lot of Battlegrounds and normal dungeons such as Maraudon, Dire Maul etc.
You literally got content faster than you could consume it, even if you were a more hardcore player that spent a lot of time playing.
Could this be the case for ESO as well, if they had focused on content for subscribers (made by subscriber revenue), instead of making Cash Shop content to sell at a later date? Cash Shop content that not only will cost 20$~, but takes 2-3 days max. to complete?
I do like to think so, but apparently money won over having a quality game.
I do acknowledge that WoW updates slowed down after TBC~, and their focus on having a quality game quickly disappeared after Activision got their claws on the franchise.
Another example of how a good game or franchise can be ruined by a bad company.
Did we play the same Vanilla WoW?
Onyxia and Molten Core were the only real raids for 8 months.
Launch had those 2 raids, then in a month they released a low level dungeon probably intended for launch (Maraudon), in 3 months after that (4 months after launch) they released another mid level dungeon probably intended for launch. 6 months after launch they introduced PVP, with 7 months after launch the first battlegrounds. Again these were all features that were probably intended for launch.
8 months after launch is the first bit of content that I think they started working on for post launch, the second major raid, BWL, and I say that that's the first true post launch content, because much of its design was based on feedback from Molten Core.
10 months after launch is when they put out ZG, now you're right that guilds were still progressing through BWL at this time but ZG was only a half sized raid and was cleared rather quickly. (Nefarian started being killed not long after ZG was released though)
AQ wasn't released until 1 year, 2 months after launch (4 months after ZG), after BWL had been cleared by most progressing guilds, heck, my guild which wasn't on the bleeding edge at all was farming Nefarian to prep for AQ before the gates were opened. It took awhile after the patch to actually open the gates you know.
The next major content update (there was a minor update for the rare sets being upgraded to tier 0.5, 3 months after the AQ patch) was 6 months after AQ, C'thun had been downed by several guilds by then but many less hardcore guilds had not beaten him yet (we'd finished twin emps but not C'thun). This was Naxx. This was a year and 8 months after launch. This was the last major content update before Burning Crusade, which came 2 years, 2 months after the initial launch.
As you can see. Once Blizzard had caught up to all the bugs and unfinished content intended for launch, their patch frequency slowed down considerably. By the time they got to actual post launch content, it went from every month or two updates to 4 months, to 6 months, to another 6 months for the expansion.
This happens in every MMO, sub or not. LotRO did the same, a whirlwind of content in the first several months... until they caught up to content that we beta players had known was supposed to be launch content, then it stalled until the expansion.
Do some betas, and I mean, real closed betas, not this preview stuff that 'betas' are these days, in testing groups where actual devs and QC's run content with you and gather feedback over voice communication, and you will see how much of the "updates" are really just the devs playing catch up to stuff they ran out of time to polish before launch.3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭In the end, depends a lot on the game & company behind it.
There are F2P games with "less scammy" models than some B2P games, but in the end they are all scams.
I have experience with many F2P, sub, and B2P games. Overall, I see B2P as the most honest model.
I have watched content patches slow down after the first year in sub games, meanwhile I'm still paying and not getting anything from it really
I have seen F2P games where they gave you a crippled product that's so restricted it's unplayable, and they offered for $5 you can unlock this functionality that allows you to have a slightly less crippled game! Then another $5, then another $5 then another $5... by the time you'd have a fully functional game as the subscribers used to have it, you've spent about $60-$70 or more. Hell, LotRO screwed over its Lifetime membership holders, by finding ways to make them buy from the cash shop too, constantly raising the level cap and then selling things like stat tomes and legendary relic removing scrolls so that you could use your BIS relics that were no longer attainable in the game They found ways to force you to pay there, even though you'd already paid them $200 at launch in good faith.
The B2P games I've played? Still released content, actually in those 2 cases they released content for free unless it was an expansion pack, which they sold, and which I was perfectly fine for paying for that content. GW2 may not have released a lot of new permanent content (a lot has been temporarily accessible and then removed), but what has been released has been free. if you weren't interested in buying cosmetic items like armor skins and weapon skins or mini pets or pvp finishers, you paid $60 total. Just the box, and the content that was released was free.
Now you're right in that case that content comes in slowly there. Why? Because they're not selling content, they're selling cosmetics in the store (which they do release frequently).
However ZoS seems to be focusing their store on selling CONTENT.
I think both of us should possibly look into the Secret World to see how much content they've gotten since launch, since TSW switched to a B2P model where the main money maker was content packs.
That'll probably give us the best idea of what to expect.
But in theory, it could result in content being released more frequently if that's their biggest money maker.
TSW?
I did some research, and it turns out they get updates roughly every 3 months, and it turns out they offer "hours of content" (they clearly state this themselves). I wouldn't be surprised if ESO was going the same way now with B2P.
http://www.thesecretworld.com/news/issue_9_the_black_signal_is_live
http://www.thesecretworld.com/news/issue_10_nightmares_in_the_dream_palace_is_here
Now, "hours of content" every 3-months is sadly not enough to keep the more active players around.
And then they've got... this: http://www.thesecretworld.com/news/enjoy_the_first_time_buyers_pack
Nope, stopped reading there.
It's clear these games are more interested in sucking your wallet dry, than providing a quality game.Edited by DDuke on January 25, 2015 4:40PM2 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Gidorick
At this point, the only "true competition" on this payment model IMHO is the elephant in the room you neatly neglected to mention in your list. At a little over two and a half years of life, they have sold over 3 million copies of the game to date, consistently delivered updates and content as they said they would (check out the post launch development section for an eye full), and without charging people a dime for it. Now set to release it's first expansion, I'd say it remains to be seen if from a business standpoint Zo$ is even remotely able to stay in the same league, let alone genre...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars_2
Meanwhile we here are looking at "renting vs paying" for DLCs....? Not even close.Edited by Soulshine on January 25, 2015 4:48PM0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »Mettaricana wrote: »Amsel_McKay wrote: »F2P gone wrong (Star Citizen) $15,000 pack: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Combos/The-Completionist-Digital
who the f*** has that much money to throw at their computer screen? 15k $ what the hell...that money could supply me with gaming from now til im dead...
The last MMO I played before ESO was Scarlet Blade, people were easily dropping $15k US a year to get the best gear "free" from the tiered spender...you spend $350 US and get a unique quality piece of armor "free" as a reward. They would do that month after month until they had all seven pieces of unique armor, all five pieces of unique jewelry, unique armored mech and the latest hot bike. Then the level cap would raise and they do it all over again. For a free to play game it was too expensive for me to keep playing so as soon as ESO went live I dropped Scarlet Blade like hot potato.
A quick look at the Scarlet Blade web site shows their current tiered spender for the top tier shows you spend 149999 AP to get the latest hot bike (20% faster than the standard bike, in PVP that's a clear advantage allowing you to chase down the other players more easily) OR two items that will change rare gear to unique gear and two perfect enhancement stones that guarantee a successful enhancement attempt. 149999 AP = $1499.99 US you don't get a lot for the money but I guarantee you people are spending that much to get those items "free".
Played Scarlet Blade before ESO as well.
They even had a tiered spender package at one point where players who paid enough could request the GMs make them any item they desired as long as it was coded into game already.
Needless to say, it was possible to circumvent months to years of grinding and pay for the perfect piece of gear with tailor-made stats and at max quality.
Aeria knows how to make money on f2p."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
0 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Even with a P2P model over this last year ESO has been competing with these MMOs and many like it since its beta. And from the get go theyve been at a disadvantage due to their pay method choice.
Many who were on the fence about paying a sub walked away from this game after the first month. Because it wasnt up to snuff in their opinion. These are the people that ZOS was competing for. Their money. Their time and effort.
Now that ZOS has dropped the required sub and gone with a B2P/Sub Hybrid. Theyre now on equal footing with many MMOs out there. And will likely see many of those who initially left making a return to at the very least take a look at the game a year later.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax0 -
Abr4hn✭✭ESO being a subscription MMO required gamers to make a commitment up front. By doing this, ZOS was creating a history with players. Players that subscribed not only felt a sense of ownership and pride, they also felt a sense of belonging and kinship because the people they were playing with had also made that commitment.
Each month that passed, many players renewed their subscription and that sense of pride, belonging, and history grew. There weren't many choices for players who preferred subscription MMOs and the fact that ESO was one of them made it feel special. There seemed to be a sense of exclusivity that players felt by being an ESO player.
Ummm, no. The basic premise of your post is flawed.
Your stated belief is that people make some sort of emotional commitment when paying a monthly fee for a service, in this case by subscribing to a game.
Do you also get a sense of "ownership and pride" for Comcast when you pay your cable bill? Do you feel "pride, belonging and history" for Verizon when you pay your monthly phone bill? If that is true, you really need to get out of the basement more often.
As for the rest of the post... the second flaw in your argument is that all the competition among the MMO's listed only exists when ESO goes B2P, while it was magically free from competition when it was P2P.
Wrong again. Each of those games is and always has been fighting for market share relative to the others. The games themselves are what people care about, and the particular business model is secondary.
As an example, I am not going to play a game that sucks just because it is F2P. Conversely, I will cough up a monthly subscription for a game I like, even if that is not my preferred way to pay for a game.
So basically, the entire post was just another elaborate version of P2P = good, B2P = bad.
/golfclap.0 -
THammer✭By becoming B2P ESO has to now hold its own against a THRONG of MMOS... I genuinely hope the B2P model allows ESO to add the things that would truly make it an MMO to contend with. Things like:- A LFG tool that works
- Advanced (some might say basic) Guild tools
- Underwater environments
- Player created content
- NPC "heros"
- Player housing
- Interactive furniture
- Interactive, buildable, ownable boats
- More, and meaningful world skills (lockpicking/treasure hunting/animal hunting)
- Expanded character creation
I just don't see why you put some of the things on your list...
3) Cause we got lots of underwater questing areas in the Elder Scrolls... Where did I leave my sea horse?
4) No thanks.
5) Absolutely not!
7) I don't see the need.
8) Sounds like a niche thing. We aren't playing Elder Pirates Online.
9) Besides possibly expanding lock-picking or pickpocketing for the justice system, I don't see the need of the other things you mentioned.
10) Character creation was great.
A "must" to be competitive? Are you serious?
Edited by THammer on January 25, 2015 6:05PM0