A Final Plea for Clemency on the B2P/F2P decision

Kilandros · January 2015

mamericus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

In point of fact Sage or Firor explicitly said they would kill the game before shifting from a sub model.

Could you please provide a quote for this?

Someone posted it earlier, in another thread. I will see if I can find it, but since the board has been so active, I make no promises.

Neryaz · January 2015

+ Agreed

Morthur · January 2015

.

mamericus · January 2015

SavageHenry wrote: »

So how about you say you like it in stead of saying it's a fantastic game.
There is a lot standard about this mmo.
And here we go the "what am I doing here if I don't like the game?" well why shouldn't I, are negative opinions not allowed? But of course I must be a troll because you don't like what I'm saying. Just wake and stop investing your emotions in a company that clearly does not care about you, but only you cash.

also maybe if your attitude in defending this game was just slightly different than I would have sympathy for you, but you reek of blind fanboism, and your devotion to a digital entertainment product is beyond sad. People like you who defend mediocre games with such zeal are more off putting than the generic game play it self.

Obviously because the word "fantastic" can be used to imply appreciation for something. Look, this is never going to end if I keep rebuking you, so I'll just say: yes, your opinion is valid and welcome, just do it respectfully please, enough with the personal attacks. Also, yes, I am sadly a ES fanboy, I've spent entire evenings reading up the UESP wiki. I am sorry I put you off, good thing I'm not interested anyway. And lastly, I will strive from now on to be less zealous about games, so that the disappointment does not hit me as hard.

This will be my last reply to you. Have a good day.

EDIT: fixed typo.

MrGhosty · January 2015

I'm honestly upset with how they've handled this change over and what may or may not have been delayed because of it. As for the change itself, I've seen several games not go down in flames even though they have cash shops or other payment models. Planetside 2 is a good example of a free to play game with a cash shop that makes its money solely from what is sold in the cash shop and it is a great game.

What they're offering now seems a perfectly reasonable way to play it, you can keep paying your sub and access the game how you always have or you can opt to not pay have access to everything up to and including update 6 and then pick up the DLC a'la carte at your discretion.

If they ever add gear that is actually armor and not just cosmetic costumes, so long as that gear is attainable in-game as well I don't see the harm. For many people the gear is not the end goal, it's what you can tackle after getting the gear many may want to strive for and this allows for equal footing. You can spend your 12 hour play session grinding for said piece or if you don't happen to have those 12 hours you could perhaps then opt to just buy the gear at cost to yourself. I'm not saying they will go this route, but I'm saying that should they choose to and based on what we've seen so far they aren't sacrificing their artistic integrity.

As to the OP's comment of "if they can't make it work they should double the sub fee and if that doesn't work they should just kill it." I would never support another game of theirs again simply due to the fact I see that as giving up and seems a tad childish. There is merit to just acknowledging something isn't working, but things don't always work in their first iteration and require trial and error to reach their full potential. They've pointed the ship in a new direction and are tapping into a market that has relatively little competition which could mean increased sales. This seems the right direction to head in and if it is successful the PC players will be able to enjoy the fruit of this labor as well.

A sub model would never have flown on console, there has been years of a created expectation that when you buy the game and you've bought your xbl or psn sub you will not see any other paywalls beyond that point. Hell even being forced to pay for the console sub ruffles peoples feathers. If they went the route of not charging the sub on console and still charged PC players I can already feel the rage that would have reverberated on these forums, so it was all or none and they chose the better option.

As to your "awesome community and mature conversation" statement, we already have toxic zone chat and deplorable people, I cannot personally fathom how that would be made any worse by a buy to play payment model. If it was free to play then I might agree that you had a bit of a point there but otherwise this statement just feels over dramatic.

I'm truly sorry you feel betrayed, I've been here since beta as well subbing for every bit of it and I don't agree with you. Am I upset with how they've handled this and other matters? You bet I am. I intend to keep playing this game until I am no longer having fun at which point I will move on to something else. ZOS owes us nothing for better or worse. If our only choices is B2P or pulling the plug I'm glad they're making it buy 2 play.

Apologies for the extra long rant, it turns out I had more to say on the matter than I first intended.

mamericus · January 2015

MrGhosty wrote: »

I'm truly sorry you feel betrayed, I've been here since beta as well subbing for every bit of it and I don't agree with you. Am I upset with how they've handled this and other matters? You bet I am. I intend to keep playing this game until I am no longer having fun at which point I will move on to something else. ZOS owes us nothing for better or worse. If our only choices is B2P or pulling the plug I'm glad they're making it buy 2 play.

Apologies for the extra long rant, it turns out I had more to say on the matter than I first intended.

All valid points and I hope you're right and this doesn't ruin the fun. I still don't know if it's enough to keep me in though. I'm very aware of what that cash shop will do to my wallet.

Woolenthreads · January 2015

No!

Bouvin · January 2015

mamericus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

In point of fact Sage or Firor explicitly said they would kill the game before shifting from a sub model.

Could you please provide a quote for this?

Matt Firor, "Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren’t willing to make.”

“Our fans are our biggest inspiration, and we’ve listened to their feedback on the entertainment experience they want,” said Matt Firor

mamericus · January 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

Matt Firor, "Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren’t willing to make.”

“Our fans are our biggest inspiration, and we’ve listened to their feedback on the entertainment experience they want,” said Matt Firor

@ZOS_MattFiror‌ Care to comment? Or anyone from the ZoS staff?

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · January 2015

some casuals are casual because they have a life; not because they are not competitive gamers. I understand that you want an edge because you play more. But, as far as im concerned I just dont care. I have also played this game since beta and only have 1 v14 because i didnt want to wast my life endlessly grinding to get another, the content has been experienced. I love competitive pvp and would buy another full level different class in a second. In fact id get each one. I'll probably never get that because getting rid of vet solves that problem anyway. Cash shop has some issues but Im not against people who have *** to do with their lives cutting some corners with cash.

WraithAzraiel · January 2015

Not sure if goodbye thread or F@#% YOU, ZOS thread.

Abr4hn · January 2015

Here is the situation in a nutshell: the MMO market has changed quite a bit over the past 10 years, and that includes the business models.

10 years ago pure subscription was literally the only option available. Since then, a lot of successful F2P and B2P games have hit the market and changed many player's perceptions of what they think of as the "normal" business model.

MMO's typically take quite a few years to finish, and sometimes changes like this can catch them by surprise if they have not been paying close enough attention. The ideas they had for the game (including the business model) were great when they started writing code, but are obsolete by the time they finish the game 5 years later.

Wildstar is maybe the worst current example that I can think of. They are trapped in a time warp from 10 years ago not only in their business model (pure subscription) but also their end game - hard core 40 man raids with attunements and lockouts!?! Think Molten Core from vanilla WoW, circa 2004. Seriously. What were they smoking? But they took 9 years to finish the game, so maybe that explains it.

Anyway, I see ESO's change to B2P as simply adapting to these changes, somewhat belatedly. I remember most of the gaming magazines were all scratching their heads at the pure subscription model announced by both ESO and Wildstar before they were released... and they were right to do so. The subscription only business model for MMO's have become outdated - their time has passed.

Incidentally, I think these B2P changes for ESO are great. I have grown accustomed to them playing Rift, SWTOR and GW2. B2P is the new "normal" for me, along with many others. I am looking forward to March 17th.

Rott · January 2015

mamericus wrote: »

I started this game back in Beta with a few of my real life friends. They all quit a few months after launch, claiming the game had "failed", but of course some gamers will say that about any game they don't like. Not I; I stayed, and I would spend hours every week defending this game against anyone who would dare speak ill of it.

I don't understand this type of attitude, why do you feel the need to defend a company out to make money? It's is beyond me.

But think about this: what if all/most of those people who spoke ill were actually trying to make zenimax see the issues the game had. but because people like you took it personally and decided to "spend hours every week" defending the game, you actually contributed to its downfall. Well done.

mamericus wrote: »

If the problem is revenue and you are able to maintain development at the current rate, I'd be more than happy to pay double for my subscription, and I personally know many people who would do the same, and I'm confident thousands more would too.

If a sub based game doesn't have the numbers to remain viable then doubling the sub cost would only kill it quicker. I seriously doubt thousands of people would be happy to pay double what they are already paying, especially considering the lack of content and masses of bugs (some from beta) they have had to deal with so far.

mamericus wrote: »

If doing what is right does not sway you, think about this: the kind of press you would get for having the chutzpah to reverse this decision based on player feedback would earn you the respect and loyalty of so many gamers and publications.

Changing course now would also make them appear to be flipflopping, leaderless and weak. So unfortunately there is no turning back from their decision. This has been in the works for months now.

It's one thing to be passionate but you seem to have let that passion blind you.

mamericus · January 2015

Abr4hn wrote: »

Here is the situation in a nutshell: the MMO market has changed quite a bit over the past 10 years, and that includes the business models.

10 years ago pure subscription was literally the only option available. Since then, a lot of successful F2P and B2P games have hit the market and changed many player's perceptions of what they think of as the "normal" business model.

Indeed this is part of the problem. F2P is more the norm now than the exception, and yet this game willingly decided to launch as a subscription game. They got burned for it by lots of players and fans of the ES franchise and some major publications, and they defended their decision adamantly, which is a reason many of us were excited to play this in the first place. And then they go and do a 180. Which of course, as many have pointed out, they're entitled to. It's their game. But why all the lies and deceit about it if F2P is really that popular?

As far as Wildstar goes, I haven't played it, so I can't really comment. But their model is one of the most innovative and unique out there in that you can pay for your subscription with in-game currency, by playing. Regarding the raids, I think your point is mute when WoW still has those 40 man raids and thriving on 11.5 million subscribers. Of course, we can't use WoW as an example for everything, but it's a pretty good indicator of what the market wants.

For the record, I have no problem with a B2P model where you only pay for the box set and game on. I have a serious problem with cash shops, designed to milk players for all they can, especially in an ES game that is supposed to be immersive, where if you need an outfit you should be able to rob it off somebody's person or corpse, or buy it in a shop with gold, not use cash in a virtual popup store.

TheBull · January 2015

Idk what it says, but it looks well written so I gave him an awesome. I most likely agree.

Breg_Magol · January 2015

LOL ... it's hilarity central seeing this much angst about a business model for a game!

The planet's in a spin, REAL people are dying, 1.5 billion people on the planet have no electricity ... and the OP is Pleading for CLEMENCY?<GROAN>

Guy's go out and get some fresh air .. bottle some pickled cabbage, or ride a bike or something .. I don't know .. just do something to elevate this thing you call living from the sad morass of a pit you're typing from!

Here .. read this -> http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2tasw7/afraid_that_the_community_will_take_a_nosedive/ good advice that is!

Remember. The cup is ALWAYS half full, and you ain't dead yet, so don't waste it.
It's called perspective ... you're welcome ... and cheers, with love!

Doomknight · January 2015

I fully and completely agree, and I'm saddened to see a game with so much potential destroy it's future penultimately. I'm unsubbing and I'm not returning until this decision is reversed.

dietlime · January 2015

I don't care. It's a neat game, it's not the most amazing game. I wasn't really moved by it enough, and wasn't going to continue my sub.

Now I don't have to, and I can still enjoy it occasionally when it suits me.

I win.

hiyde · January 2015

Breg_Magol wrote: »

LOL ... it's hilarity central seeing this much angst about a business model for a game!

The planet's in a spin, REAL people are dying, 1.5 billion people on the planet have no electricity ... and the OP is Pleading for CLEMENCY?<GROAN>

LOL,,, it's hilarity centralx2 seeing this much angst about angst about a business model for a game!

Suggestion: Cancel all your leisure expenses, sell your entertainment devices and donate the money to help the people you name above. Otherwise, you're just bullying and insulting the OP over the fact that he feels strongly about this product and wants to give feedback.

If he wants to play video games, ride bikes, save the world, or sit in front of the TV with a beer in one hand and the remote in the other, that's his business and has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

While I don't agree with everything said, the OP wrote a heartfelt and respectful message to the company. And I can respect that without slinging mud and acting superior.

briandivisionb16_ESO · January 2015

Promise me #CosmeticOnly or bye o/

Breg_Magol · January 2015

hiyde wrote: »

Breg_Magol wrote: »

LOL ... it's hilarity central seeing this much angst about a business model for a game!

The planet's in a spin, REAL people are dying, 1.5 billion people on the planet have no electricity ... and the OP is Pleading for CLEMENCY?<GROAN>

LOL,,, it's hilarity centralx2 seeing this much angst about angst about a business model for a game!

Suggestion: Cancel all your leisure expenses, sell your entertainment devices and donate the money to help the people you name above. Otherwise, you're just bullying and insulting the OP over the fact that he feels strongly about this product and wants to give feedback.

Hehe .. be original my friend and don't let that high blood pressure get you into a tizzy

Yasha · January 2015

Its a fantastic game, it will still be amazing when it goes b2p only cheaper for most people and insanely popular. Stop whining and get back in game if you like it so much.

And just to clarify- the devs have not lied to you, they have worked their butts off to give you a game that you have enjoyed immensely, be grateful for that and love them.

Elsonso · January 2015

I am not happy that they did this, but I am also aware that I am powerless to change it. My choices are leave or stay. I have had a month to think about it and I have chosen to stay and see what happens.

I think that if ZeniBeth was going to listen to the forum, they would have done so already. The forum was definitely not in favor of this change and that was not enough to change course. It may have had some impact on the final decision about how to go about it, but not the core decision to do it.

I am reminded of Ambassador Kosh from Babylon 5... "The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote."

Miszou · January 2015

Sinlar wrote: »

Make no mistake though, if they ruin the beautiful world that I have come to love, I will do all that I can to ruin theirs.

Nice attitude you got there. What are you gonna do? Try to bring down the company for everyone else, because your feelings are hurt?

Doomknight wrote: »

I fully and completely agree, and I'm saddened to see a game with so much potential destroy it's future penultimately. I'm unsubbing and I'm not returning until this decision is reversed.

Yeah, that'll teach 'em. Turn off your subscription, so they have to put more things in the cash shop to stay afloat. It's genius!

ArcaneBlue · January 2015

Marcus you're on my friends list, and I wish I could give you 10000 agrees.

Buck · January 2015

roechacca wrote: »

They didn't even plan on buying us drinks before this ...

and the part that makes me feel dirty is that I paid for it. /shame

Breg_Magol wrote: »

LOL ... it's hilarity central seeing this much angst about a business model for a game!

The planet's in a spin, REAL people are dying, 1.5 billion people on the planet have no electricity ... and the OP is Pleading for CLEMENCY?<GROAN>

Guy's go out and get some fresh air .. bottle some pickled cabbage, or ride a bike or something .. I don't know .. just do something to elevate this thing you call living from the sad morass of a pit you're typing from!

Here .. read this -> http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2tasw7/afraid_that_the_community_will_take_a_nosedive/ good advice that is!

Remember. The cup is ALWAYS half full, and you ain't dead yet, so don't waste it.

Cheers, with love!

The cup is never half full or half empty, it's just all there. lol Let people be passionate about whatever they want, I sure most aren't the cavemen your humor is trying to convey and they all have valid opinions to justifying their money for a quality product that lives up to, exceed,or completely flops. To each his own, and their right to say it, don't judge it especially when it's just a game lol. It'd be a much more boring MMO genre without people offering opinions on the forums and sharing their feedback to developers.

Breg_Magol wrote: »

Hehe .. be original my friend and don't let that high blood pressure get you into a tizzy

...lol nevermind. Moving on

but do you find it odd you found time to spend in this thread... and not in GAME or saving the world?

Anyway, I'm still subbed at the moment and not sure what to expect, but I have zero interest in playing a game with a cash store, in any form with any in game items that can only be purchased in a store. I play for fun and I hate the P2W concept in every way. I think B2P games are great when it's simply that, and I wouldn't expect anything more than the content in the game when I buy it.

To me paying a sub fee is the best choice and I get all the content in the game and I am supporting all the future content that comes with it. A balanced playing field that looks the same, plays the same, costs the same, and is the same for everyone - and that's a huge part of it for me as well, not for completely competitive reasons but just because it make sense. lol

Play as you want cannot turn into Pay as you want. To me for an MMO or an elder scrolls game, I want it all at my finger tips and not micro managed into a cash shop. The whole scene that side of the genre creates turns me off MMO's.

I don't know what to expect but as a sub right now I already have questioned the quality of the development I sign up to support many times and have been let down... and also feel cheated by them with-holding all this content they've shown off for a long time now while no updates come and more promises were made and ideas sold to us. Quit now and I miss all that content whether it was a Guar mount or Imperial City or whatever else they mentioned since launch. And that will be determined after I see the the model in action.

lord_dal · January 2015

agree with OP, and with all the work needed for this change, they have known about this for a long time, and not said anything, and I have heard/seen them say several times that they will not change they payment model, instead they had us pay a monthly fee, to more or less beta test the game for them, and their console release, and now that the game is more like what is should have been at launch, then they change it to b2p, they lied and betrayed their customers, and the comunity, and Im waiting to have my account deleted.
and like some posters have stated, customers leaving wont change this, but thats not the same as I just have to accept it, we all have our own way of showing that we dont accept it, and I rather leave the game when its still good, and remember it that way, then stay and see it slowly get worse and worse, and then die like most f2p/btp games

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2015

Kraven wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

In point of fact Sage or Firor explicitly said they would kill the game before shifting from a sub model.

^This. Which means from the ground up the company is just straight full of ***.

So then kill your copy with the uninstall button and break the disc/never return to the service that provided the DL.

Its all said and done. None of this whining is going to change the direction their going.

soulclaw · January 2015

So letting the game die off is the preferred option?

c0rp · January 2015

As much as I liked the sub...the payment model is archaic. As far as ESOs lifespan is concerned, this is the best thing for it.