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Where changes like the upcoming change to Ultimate will get ESO.
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BBSooner✭✭✭✭✭
✭@BBSooner what's your fastest SO completion.....are you on the leaderboard.....because making statements like you are I would assume......
Congrats on your completion. If a content measuring contest is all you can bring to a theorycrafting discussion then I'm not really sure why you're here.1 -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Ooooooo the truth comes out....your just mad DKs kill you.
The whole issue has been about people being pissy that DKs kill them.
I don't even play a DK.
Ya, DKs are pretty OP right now. But the Reflective Scales nerf is going to knock them down a lot.
And screwing up the way ultimate works isn't going to change anything as far as DKs owning people.7 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO just took the "thinking" out of gaining Ultimate, which is a huge part of combat. Much how SWG started taking the thinking out of their game.. which eventually ended up in a huge purge of subscribers, and the game getting shut down.
Spamming healing springs on the group before an encounter to farm ultimate wasn't exactly "cerebral gameplay".
Stopping out of combat ultimate generation is a good change. Never should have been allowed in the first place. With that said, I don't think the conversation is about keeping out of combat ultimate generation. It's about the dumbing down of "in combat" ultimate generation
Adding a metric to prevent using it as a crutch != dumbing down. People were generating ultimate too quickly, this is ZOS' s response. A response that allows further control over player abilities moving forward.
Taking a metric that actually required experimentation and thought into your build and turning it into "Left mouse click, wait 8 seconds, left mouse click" IS DUMBING IT DOWN.
I'm assuming this is just a L2P issue for you.
To be fair, your argument is pretty dishonest because you're intentionally ignoring that some classes could simply out generate other classes in the ultimate department. It had nothing to do with "build." It had nothing to do with "skill." DKs could out generate Sorcerers by virtue of the class skills available to DKs.
They could out generate every class since Day 1. That issue had never been fixed. Never even got close to getting fixed.
So please, don't make dishonest arguments here. You seem to know what you're talking about, even though I think you're becoming increasingly disingenuous to prove a point. But I also know what I'm talking about. Other posters here seem to know what they're talking about. The classes were not balanced with regard to ultimate generation. Full stop. It had nothing to do with build. Nothing to do with skill. Full stop.
Ooooooo the truth comes out....your just mad DKs kill you.
Please. I converted to DK full time like 6 months ago. Just like nearly everybody else. And that's kind of the problem.
But since you're going to be immature despite civility throughout this thread, here we go:
Na-na-na-boo-boo enjoy DK ultimate gain while you can for the next week or two! Enjoy relearning how to play, scrub.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT2 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭Meaning someone who hasn't completed the best and hardest PvE in the game is making statements telling PvE people not to rely on ultimates and play better. Yeah ok I think your statements became invalid just nowEdited by Joejudas on January 15, 2015 7:08PM5
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BBSooner✭✭✭✭✭
✭Meaning someone who hasn't completed the best and hardest PvE in the game is making statements telling PvE people not to rely on ultimates and play better. Yeah ok I think your statements became invalid just now
Feel free to think so, sadly the game != you, so you might have to get used to otherwise. Hope you can keep up your SO times without so many ultimates.Edited by BBSooner on January 15, 2015 7:10PM2 -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO just took the "thinking" out of gaining Ultimate, which is a huge part of combat. Much how SWG started taking the thinking out of their game.. which eventually ended up in a huge purge of subscribers, and the game getting shut down.
Spamming healing springs on the group before an encounter to farm ultimate wasn't exactly "cerebral gameplay".
Stopping out of combat ultimate generation is a good change. Never should have been allowed in the first place. With that said, I don't think the conversation is about keeping out of combat ultimate generation. It's about the dumbing down of "in combat" ultimate generation
Adding a metric to prevent using it as a crutch != dumbing down. People were generating ultimate too quickly, this is ZOS' s response. A response that allows further control over player abilities moving forward.
Taking a metric that actually required experimentation and thought into your build and turning it into "Left mouse click, wait 8 seconds, left mouse click" IS DUMBING IT DOWN.
I'm assuming this is just a L2P issue for you.
To be fair, your argument is pretty dishonest because you're intentionally ignoring that some classes could simply out generate other classes in the ultimate department. It had nothing to do with "build." It had nothing to do with "skill." DKs could out generate Sorcerers by virtue of the class skills available to DKs.
They could out generate every class since Day 1. That issue had never been fixed. Never even got close to getting fixed.
So please, don't make dishonest arguments here. You seem to know what you're talking about, even though I think you're becoming increasingly disingenuous to prove a point. But I also know what I'm talking about. Other posters here seem to know what they're talking about. The classes were not balanced with regard to ultimate generation. Full stop. It had nothing to do with build. Nothing to do with skill. Full stop.
Ooooooo the truth comes out....your just mad DKs kill you.
Please. I converted to DK full time like 6 months ago. Just like nearly everybody else. And that's kind of the problem.
But since you're going to be immature despite civility throughout this thread, here we go:
Na-na-na-boo-boo enjoy DK ultimate gain while you can for the next week or two! Enjoy relearning how to play, scrub.
I play a Nightblade. I have played a Nightblade since Beta 2.
My alt is a Sorcerer.
My highest DK isn't even vet. I choose not to play it because it is BORING.
I also don't have much of a problem wiping most DKs off of the battlefield in AvA.
Honestly, just as many Sorc, Templar, and NB kill me as DKs do. It's just about learning when to hit them with ranged, when to hit them with melee, and how to use dodge roll. If you can figure that out they'll run out of resources before you do and it's game over.2 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭FYI, as a NB since Beta I have not relied on Ultimate to complete content. NB is by far one of the hardest classes to level.
NB has the fastest Ult generation in the game, what are you even on about?
Also, as someone who has VRs of every class except Templar (3 NBs, 2 Sorcs, 2 DKs), NB is not at all one of the hardest classes to level...
A class that generates Ult hand-over-fist and is rarely, if ever, resource starved is not even remotely in the realm of hard to level, even before the VR content nerf.
Maybe if you were leveling as a NB just post-launch using a 2-hander stam build before all of its buffs, you might have a case for difficulty, but that has nothing at all to do w/ classes.0 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭Meaning someone who hasn't completed the best and hardest PvE in the game is making statements telling PvE people not to rely on ultimates and play better. Yeah ok I think your statements became invalid just now
Feel free to think so, sadly the game != you, so you might have to get used to otherwise. Hope you can keep up your SO times without so many ultimates.
Here is more proof that the only people this benefits are casual players and PvP players. This is such a hoot3 -
BBSooner✭✭✭✭✭
✭Meaning someone who hasn't completed the best and hardest PvE in the game is making statements telling PvE people not to rely on ultimates and play better. Yeah ok I think your statements became invalid just now
Feel free to think so, sadly the game != you, so you might have to get used to otherwise. Hope you can keep up your SO times without so many ultimates.
Here is more proof that the only people this benefits are casual players and PvP players. This is such a hoot
It proves you're stressing about how many ultimates you get in a fight. Reliance?1 -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭FYI, as a NB since Beta I have not relied on Ultimate to complete content. NB is by far one of the hardest classes to level.
NB has the fastest Ult generation in the game, what are you even on about?
Also, as someone who has VRs of every class except Templar (3 NBs, 2 Sorcs, 2 DKs), NB is not at all one of the hardest classes to level...
A class that generates Ult hand-over-fist and is rarely, if ever, resource starved is not even remotely in the realm of hard to level, even before the VR content nerf.
Maybe if you were leveling as a NB just post-launch using a 2-hander stam build before all of its buffs, you might have a case for difficulty, but that has nothing at all to do w/ classes.
So the argument is:
DK builds Ult too fast.
NB builds Ult too fast.
Then just buff Templar or Sorc Ult generation.
Why do they have to use a band-aid fix?
Or will we next hear that Templar & Sorc build Ultimate too fast... and it's just the poor 2-hand users that don't get enough Ultimate.0 -
Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭Chain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.2 -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.
Then increase the cost of Ultimate and they won't get chained.
Why overhaul the whole system?1 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭When 1.6 drops and the bad players still die....because changing game mechanics won't mean it makes anyone any better...all the PvE folks will find a way to work around it....then the bad PvP players will cry again....and ZOS will change it again.4
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Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭When 1.6 drops and the bad players still die....because changing game mechanics won't mean it makes anyone any better...all the PvE folks will find a way to work around it....then the bad PvP players will cry again....and ZOS will change it again.
And eventually the good players will get tired of ZOS trying to "fix" the game for the bad players and they will leave.
The bad players will stick around until the next MMO with lots of Shinies is released, then leave and ZOS will be at a loss as to what happened to their game.
Seen it before with many MMOs. As soon as they cave to the Carebears the game goes to crap.2 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭
It's not a wide spread problem....it's just a problem in PvP....cause don't stand in stuff that kills youChain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.
Then increase the cost of Ultimate and they won't get chained.
Why overhaul the whole system?
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BBSooner✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.
Then increase the cost of Ultimate and they won't get chained.
Why overhaul the whole system?
Because it's a global mechanic. Just like how HP gains are equal across the board instead of individual to the class.Edited by BBSooner on January 15, 2015 7:23PM0 -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
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It's not a wide spread problem....it's just a problem in PvP....cause don't stand in stuff that kills youChain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.
Then increase the cost of Ultimate and they won't get chained.
Why overhaul the whole system?
I don't think any change is needed personally.
I was just responding to the other comment.0 -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.
Then increase the cost of Ultimate and they won't get chained.
Why overhaul the whole system?
Because it's a global mechanic. Just like how HP gains are equal across the board instead of individual to the class.
Aww yes, but if I stack health increase and regain equipment, I'm going to regain faster.
Pretty soon people will be whining that my NB has 3700 HP in PvP (3200 out) and they'll nerf that too.0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭FYI, as a NB since Beta I have not relied on Ultimate to complete content. NB is by far one of the hardest classes to level.
NB has the fastest Ult generation in the game, what are you even on about?
Also, as someone who has VRs of every class except Templar (3 NBs, 2 Sorcs, 2 DKs), NB is not at all one of the hardest classes to level...
A class that generates Ult hand-over-fist and is rarely, if ever, resource starved is not even remotely in the realm of hard to level, even before the VR content nerf.
Maybe if you were leveling as a NB just post-launch using a 2-hander stam build before all of its buffs, you might have a case for difficulty, but that has nothing at all to do w/ classes.
So the argument is:
DK builds Ult too fast.
NB builds Ult too fast.
Then just buff Templar or Sorc Ult generation.
Why do they have to use a band-aid fix?
Or will we next hear that Templar & Sorc build Ultimate too fast... and it's just the poor 2-hand users that don't get enough Ultimate.
See, just buffing Templar or Sorc bit-by-bit is actually the band-aid fix. Overhauling Ult mechanics entirely is treating the root cause itself, which is unequal Ult generation mechanics across the board.
Even outside of just class abilities, depending on build, you are basically just "doing it wrong" if you aren't stacking crit, hots, dots, aoes, etc to the max to generate Ult faster than ZOS intended.
Obviously, that's what you want, but ZOS doesn't want you doing that anymore, because it screws up game balance.
There are a lot of different factors that led to this change. You can't simply cherry-pick 1 or 2 reasons for the change and say "Well, just fix THAT", because there are simply too many THATs to go through and play whack-a-mole w/ one at a time, and each of those band-aid fixes causes issues of its own.
I agree that it's better to just start over w/ a system that allows them to tune encounter mechanics based on a reasonable amount of Ults being fired off.
Some of the things this change helps accomodate are:
1) Curbing insanely high Ult generation
2) Raising unbearably low Ult generation for tanks and other builds
3) Encouraging build variety by not forcing seasoned players to stack only certain types of abilities in order to compete
4) A very, very slight hiccup to the block-casting meta
5) Allowing AoE abilities to hit more targets since they no longer unbalance damage potential
There's more, but I hope you get the point. Just saying "well, buff sorcs and temps" doesn't do anything for the majority of the issues.
It does, however, allow you to continue using broken mechanics to stack Ult generation to a point that was unintended by the devs, which we both know is why you keep fighting for them to keep dancing around the symptoms instead of treating the actual problem, which is broken Ult generation mechanics.Edited by Varicite on January 15, 2015 7:34PM1 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭Chain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.
Then increase the cost of Ultimate and they won't get chained.
Why overhaul the whole system?
Because it's a global mechanic. Just like how HP gains are equal across the board instead of individual to the class.
Then why don't you admit that if they would specifically fix this for PvP you would be happy....instead of nerfing PvE play ??? We all know that's the true issue here.2 -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭FYI, as a NB since Beta I have not relied on Ultimate to complete content. NB is by far one of the hardest classes to level.
NB has the fastest Ult generation in the game, what are you even on about?
Also, as someone who has VRs of every class except Templar (3 NBs, 2 Sorcs, 2 DKs), NB is not at all one of the hardest classes to level...
A class that generates Ult hand-over-fist and is rarely, if ever, resource starved is not even remotely in the realm of hard to level, even before the VR content nerf.
Maybe if you were leveling as a NB just post-launch using a 2-hander stam build before all of its buffs, you might have a case for difficulty, but that has nothing at all to do w/ classes.
So the argument is:
DK builds Ult too fast.
NB builds Ult too fast.
Then just buff Templar or Sorc Ult generation.
Why do they have to use a band-aid fix?
Or will we next hear that Templar & Sorc build Ultimate too fast... and it's just the poor 2-hand users that don't get enough Ultimate.
See, just buffing Templar or Sorc bit-by-bit is actually the band-aid fix. Overhauling Ult mechanics entirely is treating the root cause itself, which is unequal Ult generation mechanics across the board.
Even outside of just class abilities, depending on build, you are basically just "doing it wrong" if you aren't stacking crit, hots, dots, aoes, etc to the max to generate Ult faster than ZOS intended.
Obviously, that's what you want, but ZOS doesn't want you doing that anymore, because it screws up game balance.
Ya, but that's a bad decision in my opinion.
If I make a build that focuses on Ultimate generation, I'm sacrificing other things.
Making it even across the board takes out the sacrifice, which is just going to end up in fewer different builds.
It's bad for the game because it will make combat LESS DYNAMIC.
I'm telling you, if they stick to this whole "It needs to even across the board" it'll just be everyone running the same exact build and left clicking in no time.
That's what happened to SWG after the NGE update when they dumbed everything down.4 -
BBSooner✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.
Then increase the cost of Ultimate and they won't get chained.
Why overhaul the whole system?
Because it's a global mechanic. Just like how HP gains are equal across the board instead of individual to the class.
Then why don't you admit that if they would specifically fix this for PvP you would be happy....instead of nerfing PvE play ??? We all know that's the true issue here.
I haven't been in Cyrodiil since October, before that not since early release. Do you have an argument or are you just wildly throwing around assumptions?1 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭FYI, as a NB since Beta I have not relied on Ultimate to complete content. NB is by far one of the hardest classes to level.
NB has the fastest Ult generation in the game, what are you even on about?
Also, as someone who has VRs of every class except Templar (3 NBs, 2 Sorcs, 2 DKs), NB is not at all one of the hardest classes to level...
A class that generates Ult hand-over-fist and is rarely, if ever, resource starved is not even remotely in the realm of hard to level, even before the VR content nerf.
Maybe if you were leveling as a NB just post-launch using a 2-hander stam build before all of its buffs, you might have a case for difficulty, but that has nothing at all to do w/ classes.
So the argument is:
DK builds Ult too fast.
NB builds Ult too fast.
Then just buff Templar or Sorc Ult generation.
Why do they have to use a band-aid fix?
Or will we next hear that Templar & Sorc build Ultimate too fast... and it's just the poor 2-hand users that don't get enough Ultimate.
See, just buffing Templar or Sorc bit-by-bit is actually the band-aid fix. Overhauling Ult mechanics entirely is treating the root cause itself, which is unequal Ult generation mechanics across the board.
Even outside of just class abilities, depending on build, you are basically just "doing it wrong" if you aren't stacking crit, hots, dots, aoes, etc to the max to generate Ult faster than ZOS intended.
Obviously, that's what you want, but ZOS doesn't want you doing that anymore, because it screws up game balance.
Seems like a L2P issue to me. Do A+B+C = Being Good. But I'm too " good" or "silly" to do those things ...So nerf the entire system.....-___-
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fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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LOL, talk about melodramatic .. you're suggesting the game will die over something as minor as ULTIMATE?http://www.ageofconan.com/playfree/
Age of Conan. Huge hype, huge number of players day one, empty guilds at 3-6 months.
Why? Bugs that should have been fixed before release. Band-aid fixes, and dumb decisions by the developers.
I'd rather NOT see ESO go that direction because it has a lot of potential.
/shakeshead3 -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
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Seems like a L2P issue to me. Do A+B+C = Being Good. But I'm too " good" or "silly" to do those things ...So nerf the entire system.....-___-
^^ EXACTLY
Making everyone gain 3 ultimate per second with light attacks is NOT "Play the Way you Want".
It is, "We are going to force you to use light attacks with this new system".4 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭
Your saying nerfing ult gain will improve PvE play....which is a really silly thing to think. I assumed you were a PvP....but your not....and your not an end game PvE either. So I'm not sure why you think nerfing ult into oblivion is a good thing.Chain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.
Then increase the cost of Ultimate and they won't get chained.
Why overhaul the whole system?
Because it's a global mechanic. Just like how HP gains are equal across the board instead of individual to the class.
Then why don't you admit that if they would specifically fix this for PvP you would be happy....instead of nerfing PvE play ??? We all know that's the true issue here.
I haven't been in Cyrodiil since October, before that not since early release. Do you have an argument or are you just wildly throwing around assumptions?
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BBSooner✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chain spamming ultimate powers is evidently OK with the OP. I have to be honest when saying if players cannot objectively look at issues that have wide spread negative impact on the game I am perfectly fine with those players leaving.
Then increase the cost of Ultimate and they won't get chained.
Why overhaul the whole system?
Because it's a global mechanic. Just like how HP gains are equal across the board instead of individual to the class.
Aww yes, but if I stack health increase and regain equipment, I'm going to regain faster.
Pretty soon people will be whining that my NB has 3700 HP in PvP (3200 out) and they'll nerf that too.
The point is developing a base line for generation and allowing you to augment it from that base via class abilities and armor sets while still keeping it within a manageable range. It puts it back to a supporting mechanic that feels "ultimate" instead of being a 6th hotbar spell.2