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Why BoP is a terrible idea.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »BugCollector wrote: »I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.
That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.
If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.
Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.
And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...
This is false. As stated the drop rate would be drastically reduced so very few people would have them, they just wouldn't go to waste.
So we would run difficult end game content for a even more minuscule chance at getting a piece of gear we can just pick off a Guild Store with enough cash?
I think I'll pass.
Whaaaat? If you don't run the difficult endgame content because you enjoy doing it, why do you play this game in the first place?
To me that doesn't make a bit of sense.
It is fun doing it for the first time, but ultimately people run these dungeons in order to progress their characters (common to RPGs).
Also, there is the concept of risk=reward you have to consider, where one can with all reason expect to get rewarded according to the risk/effort taken.
Buying an item off guild store hardly requires any risk/effort.
And no, grinding gold does not require either, especially considering how easy it is in this game (2.9 million & counting here).kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »No one is forcing you to run anything. Also it opens up options of getting the item from a friend, guildy or buying it. In the end you would get the item sooner not later.
No. Everyone would get the item sooner, not later. How much is that item really worth then, if everyone has it?
And what if I actually want to earn that item, instead of buying it from a guild store or a friend? (Yes, I could easily do that with the amount of money I have)kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »badmojo0777b14_ESO wrote: »no BOP would lead to too many bad player sjust buying upgrades they don't deserve, and too many top raiding guilds selling top notch gear for mad profits, destroying an already weak economy, and guaranteeing that raiders would have the most gold
It is currently BoP, it doesn't take a "top raiding guild" to raid any of ESO content. I think your arguments are excellent for why it should go BoE.
So, when did your guild kill Serpent hardmode? Or even regular Serpent (or Vet Arena)? Just curious
Edited by DDuke on January 15, 2015 2:21PM2 -
facemace✭✭My 2 cents, change BoP to BoA, and add a small window to trade with people who were in your group. This gives reasonable flexibility w/o giving a large hole for gold farmers.0
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭My 2 cents, change BoP to BoA, and add a small window to trade with people who were in your group. This gives reasonable flexibility w/o giving a large hole for gold farmers.
But there's a problem: since everyone in raid gets one piece of loot+coffers (anything between 12-36 items in total), it wont take more than 5-6~ runs for you (and everyone else) to be fully geared.
Need before Greed system alleviates this, by making the boss drop only 3-5 pieces (still much faster than personal loot RNG), which you'd then have to determine who gets.
This is good, because you wont get to feel especially unlucky & frustrated when everyone in your group keeps getting pieces you need (even if they dont even need them), while you get the same useless heavy armour piece over & over.Edited by DDuke on January 15, 2015 2:07PM2 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭
It seems like you may not be opening your mind enough. No one is asking to simply make all items tradeable by just removing BoP and BoE without making any other changes.kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »BugCollector wrote: »I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.
That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.
If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.
Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.
And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...
This is false. As stated the drop rate would be drastically reduced so very few people would have them, they just wouldn't go to waste.
So we would run difficult end game content for a even more minuscule chance at getting a piece of gear we can just pick off a Guild Store with enough cash?
I think I'll pass.
Whaaaat? If you don't run the difficult endgame content because you enjoy doing it, why do you play this game in the first place?
To me that doesn't make a bit of sense.
It is fun doing it for the first time, but ultimately people run these dungeons in order to progress their characters (common to RPGs).
Also, there is the concept of risk=reward you have to consider, where one can with all reason expect to get rewarded according to the risk/effort taken.
Buying an item off guild store hardly requires any risk/effort.
And no, grinding gold does not require either, especially considering how easy it is in this game (2.9 million & counting here).kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »No one is forcing you to run anything. Also it opens up options of getting the item from a friend, guildy or buying it. In the end you would get the item sooner not later.
No. Everyone would get the item sooner, not later. How much is that item really worth then, if everyone has it?
And what if I actually want to earn that item, instead of buying it from a guild store or a friend? (Yes, I could easily do that with the amount of money I have)kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »badmojo0777b14_ESO wrote: »no BOP would lead to too many bad player sjust buying upgrades they don't deserve, and too many top raiding guilds selling top notch gear for mad profits, destroying an already weak economy, and guaranteeing that raiders would have the most gold
It is currently BoP, it doesn't take a "top raiding guild" to raid any of ESO content. I think your arguments are excellent for why it should go BoE.
So, when did your guild kill Serpent hardmode? Or even regular Serpent (or Vet Arena)? Just curious
There are a few really great ideas out there.- One person suggested to link the equipability of specific items to achievements. E.g. you can't equip Sanctum items unless you've run and beat that particular dugeon. This idea has a lot of potential and different tier items could be linked to achievements of varying difficulty level for the same dugeon. A side effect would be that it makes the achievements worth something.
- The original poster mentioned to reduce the drop rate of rare items.
- I suggested to control the drop rate of specific items on a player level. For example, it could be controlled in a way that every item may only drop once a week for any given player. This would greatly reduce farming.
- Then someone else suggested to carry over WoWs 2h party trade mechanic.
Just to name a few.
There are so many options to remove BoP and even BoE, without ruining anything. In fact you would keep the existing reward mechanics alive and remove frustration points and improve the importance of the economy at the same time.
Whoever says that removing BoP or BoE is a bad idea is simply not creative enough to imagine an innovative solution.2 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »BugCollector wrote: »I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.
That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.
If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.
Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.
And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...
This is false. As stated the drop rate would be drastically reduced so very few people would have them, they just wouldn't go to waste.
So we would run difficult end game content for a even more minuscule chance at getting a piece of gear we can just pick off a Guild Store with enough cash?
I think I'll pass.
Whaaaat? If you don't run the difficult endgame content because you enjoy doing it, why do you play this game in the first place?
To me that doesn't make a bit of sense.
its the all about eagerness.i´ve got sth better than you...
Edited by Tankqull on January 15, 2015 2:44PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
JessieColt✭✭✭✭The better solution to the issue with the Undaunted Challenges and rewards is a point/credit system.
Each dungeon you complete gives you points or Undaunted credits, or whatever you might want to call them.
You then use the points to buy the gear you want from an Undaunted Vendor in the tent behind the Mission givers.
You can then just buy whichever pieces you want with whatever stats you want using the credits.
The vendors could also have other stuff that could be purchased with the credits as sinks for those who have the gear they want, but are wanting to spend the credits they are getting so that they do not just cap out.
Gear could then be BOP without issues.
The sinks could be Purple Food or Potions, etc.
You could then stack your guild or sell the purple food/potions if you so choose as a way to convert points to gold.2 -
Zershar_Vemod✭✭✭✭✭The need and greed system would not work with ESO. You are asking for loot to be changed and NOT be independent of each party member . Meaning everyone shares loot that's dropped. So the need and greed system needs to NOT be in this game. I rather like having my own loot.
A different method would be greatly appreciated.
^ This.
I remember when I first heard that announced and it further sold TESO on me.
House Nyssara (NA)
Black Market Traders
Order of the Lamp Post
Thorn Brigade
VR15 Nightblade Vampire0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Whoever says that removing BoP or BoE is a bad idea is simply not creative enough to imagine an innovative solution.
Be prepared to face criticism then & address valid points of concern that might break the system you have envisioned. To name a few:- One person suggested to link the equipability of specific items to achievements. E.g. you can't equip Sanctum items unless you've run and beat that particular dugeon. This idea has a lot of potential and different tier items could be linked to achievements of varying difficulty level for the same dugeon. A side effect would be that it makes the achievements worth something.
Achievements are already worth something: achievement points (and Undaunted reputation/dyes/titles in some cases).
If all I had to do to get best gear in game was run SO one time, then what reason would I have to ever go back there?
What would stop me (and others) then from complaining of having nothing to do, when one run is enough to reap all rewards?- The original poster mentioned to reduce the drop rate of rare items.
I thought there was an issue of having really low % chance of getting the thing you need (instead of trash that is worthless to you).
That would only make running these dungeons even more frustrating experience (especially combined with your previous point).- I suggested to control the drop rate of specific items on a player level. For example, it could be controlled in a way that every item may only drop once a week for any given player. This would greatly reduce farming.
Would this include versions with different trait as well? Otherwise, interesting idea, which could work with the current system (I still think NbG would be the best way to go)- Then someone else suggested to carry over WoWs 2h party trade mechanic.
I explained the issues with party trade mechanic earlier (or atleast how they'd affect the current system). If there were only 3-5 drops per boss or so, it could work.Just to name a few.
There are so many options to remove BoP and even BoE, without ruining anything. In fact you would keep the existing reward mechanics alive and remove frustration points and improve the importance of the economy at the same time.
There are many options, yes, but not many compelling ones.
There's a good reason why most MMOs have BoE/BoP system, it's because it works.
I'd rather incorporate more proven, working elements from other MMOs, than try to reinvent the wheel & come up with a square that's not moving anywhere.
Personal loot for leveling/easy grp content, Token system for Undaunted, Need/Greed for the most difficult content.
Best of all worlds & everyone gets to be happy.0 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭
Perfect. Constructive criticism is the best input to help develop an idea.Be prepared to face criticism then & address valid points of concern that might break the system you have envisioned.
See, making achievements worth more is not the main thing here. That's just a side effect. This idea is mainly about making sure that people need to earn their gear. I did not say that you should be able to wear all Sanctum sets after running it once. I said there are a lot of options for handling this. For example:
Achievements are already worth something: achievement points (and Undaunted reputation/dyes/titles in some cases).- One person suggested to link the equipability of specific items to achievements. E.g. you can't equip Sanctum items unless you've run and beat that particular dugeon. This idea has a lot of potential and different tier items could be linked to achievements of varying difficulty level for the same dugeon. A side effect would be that it makes the achievements worth something.
If all I had to do to get best gear in game was run SO one time, then what reason would I have to ever go back there?
What would stop me (and others) then from complaining of having nothing to do, when one run is enough to reap all rewards?- It's only possible to wear a low-tier Sanctum set after running Sanctum successfully five times. That doesn't mean you'll necessarily have the items after five runs. You might still need to run it 10 more times to find all the items. Or, instead, you might find 2 items in your 5 runs and buy the remaining three. But either way, you'd need to run it 5 times to be able to wear it.
- ZOS can introduce mid-tier and high-tier Sanctum sets, associated with beating more difficult conditions (achievements). The mid-tier will require to beat it in xx minutes, while the high tier will require you to beat it in xx minutes without dying once. The details don't matter here.
- Now they could introduce the same five-successful-runs requirement for every difficulty level, all the while making these items freely tradeable. A normal player might have to run the dungeon a hundred times to beat it five times at the highest difficulty level.
- Now imagine you already have all five high-tier items in you inventory (because you found two and bought three), but you can't wear them because you only beat the dungeon on top difficulty successfully twice. How motivated would you be to beat it three more times? Super motivated!
I agree with you. I don't favor this particular solution, I just listed it for the sake of completeness.
I thought there was an issue of having really low % chance of getting the thing you need (instead of trash that is worthless to you).- The original poster mentioned to reduce the drop rate of rare items.
That would only make running these dungeons even more frustrating experience (especially combined with your previous point).
I haven't thought about the details much. It might work better taking traits into account and yet it might not. The details would need to be carefully thought through.
Would this include versions with different trait as well? Otherwise, interesting idea, which could work with the current system (I still think NbG would be the best way to go)- I suggested to control the drop rate of specific items on a player level. For example, it could be controlled in a way that every item may only drop once a week for any given player. This would greatly reduce farming.
My main point here is that there are options to limit farming without having to resort to using a smashhammer.
I personally prefer the solution where I added the bullets further up to this trade party solution.
Sometimes it's better to use a proven solution, especially if you as a game studio currently have no resources to test a specific innovative idea because you have more pressing matters to worry about. I believe that was and still is the case and I don't blame ZOS for making that call.There are many options, yes, but not many compelling ones.
There's a good reason why most MMOs have BoE/BoP system, it's because it works.
I'd rather incorporate more proven, working elements from other MMOs, than try to reinvent the wheel & come up with a square that's not moving anywhere.
But if they find the time to reconsider their drop mechanics, I strongly believe that the MMO world has not yet reached the height of innovation. There are still plenty of amazing ideas to be had, and I believe many players will love them when they see them implemented.Edited by spoqster on January 15, 2015 4:52PM1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »For those of you who don't know Bind on Pickup or (BoP) is a method MMORPG games use to restrict gear and other items by making them unable to be traded or sold after you pick them up.
In the past it has been used as a band-aide "fix" to items the developers didn't want people passing to others so instead of incentivizing them not to, they simply forced them to not be able to trade or sell the item.
This becomes more poignant when considering the Undaunted Pledges for example when dealing with the 2 pc sets.
The pluses to this mechanic are:
1) Stops developers from letting an item be traded or sold.
The minuses to this are:
1) Deters people who would be motivated to do content in order to "farm" items to sell, gift or trade to friends, family or others.
2) Discourages players who try to get the item over and over and over and over again for their own use while the other members in the group get lots and lots of the item that they will either vend or deconstruct, including ones that this player would use.
3) Takes valuable items from the economy. Currently there are VERY few high value items as the most valuable items are things that are simply rare and not really practical.
4) Discourages re-playability of content. I have several helms of the kind I want so I have no reason to repeat content, this leaves those who want to do the content to get the exact one they want with a smaller pool of players to go with them.
There are more reasons why BoP is detrimental to the health of an MMORPG when overused (or used at all imo) as it is
Keep in mind I am not referring to Bind on Equip which makes sense considering the game mechanics and is practically unavoidable. BoP however is simply poor design.
Some proposed solutions are:
A ) Make all BoP item's BoE (yes including pets why force us to keep or delete pets we don't want?) At the same time greatly reduce the drop rate of said BoP items.
B ) Make BoP gear from dungeons trade-able for a time, this is my least favourite because it really doesn't handle the Gold key shoulder rewards.
C ) Need before Greed system. The group you are with rolls for desirable loot, still doesn't handle shoulder BoP rewards which should be made BoE.
I believe if you implement solution A you will see a much happier economy and healthier game with more replayability of content.
Again double edged sword . to make the best items in game BOE would require them to be extremely rare. EQ 1 circumvented this with extreme conditions, a standard loot table with a very rare chance of a rare mob spawning that would have again a rare chance of dropping the rare item. With instanced games they do this with lockouts so you don' repeatedly speed run the dungeon over and over and have everything in a week.
It also makes these rare items over inflated on the open market. No if the item is neither BOE or BOP the market becomes flooded rather quick and the item devalues fast and the content associated with it becomes dead in the water.
C is actually the most desired for me. I say remove the whole key system. make the Rare desirable piece drop from the boss in hard mode (in crease the diffculty altogether actually.
And implement the wellfare epic system for generic set gear thats not desirable or powerful. Token based is better then this ranmdom i get piece of crapy gear form the gold key i dont use due to my role preference.1 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭Sorry, but the moment items like Vicious Ophidian, or Undaunted sets become BoE (read: instantly available for people with a lot of gold) is the moment I stop PvEing altogether and then spend all days complaining how there's nothing worth doing in the game.
You can't let people work hard to achieve something, then give it away basically for free to players pretty much fresh out of leveling process, that's just backwards thinking. If other players worked hard (and were skillful enough) to achieve those items, then so should you.
I'm not saying there are no faults with the game's loot systems, but BoE loot would only be a step backwards.
Other, more feasible solutions:- Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).
- Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).
/agreed 100%The need and greed system would not work with ESO. You are asking for loot to be changed and NOT be independent of each party member . Meaning everyone shares loot that's dropped. So the need and greed system needs to NOT be in this game. I rather like having my own loot.
A different method would be greatly appreciated.
Actually this system can work and does work extremely well in many MMOs, and please don't respond saying "but ESO is different...," because that excuse is old and completely used up. ESO is still an MMO and can therefore share similar qualities with other MMOs.
Anyway this would be the best system they could implement simply because it does remove independent gear drops from players (which is the worst loot system imaginable, and has been in every MMO). The top end gear after beating a boss or at the end of the raid should be Something that everyone can role or need/greed on, instead of having it automatically generated for you. When it's automatically generated for you, this is where you run into the problem of one person getting the same rare piece 10 times while the other member keeps getting nothing. You can still have player specific loot like gold and trash items, but as for the top gear...that needs to open to a role or need/greed.
The only other real option is like what others have said a raiding currency or reputation based system where you gather coins or rep from completing dungeons that you can then spend at a vendor that has the gear or other item sinks that you would want.Edited by NobleX35 on January 15, 2015 5:31PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."0 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
It seems like you may not be opening your mind enough. No one is asking to simply make all items tradeable by just removing BoP and BoE without making any other changes.kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »BugCollector wrote: »I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.
That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.
If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.
Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.
And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...
This is false. As stated the drop rate would be drastically reduced so very few people would have them, they just wouldn't go to waste.
So we would run difficult end game content for a even more minuscule chance at getting a piece of gear we can just pick off a Guild Store with enough cash?
I think I'll pass.
Whaaaat? If you don't run the difficult endgame content because you enjoy doing it, why do you play this game in the first place?
To me that doesn't make a bit of sense.
It is fun doing it for the first time, but ultimately people run these dungeons in order to progress their characters (common to RPGs).
Also, there is the concept of risk=reward you have to consider, where one can with all reason expect to get rewarded according to the risk/effort taken.
Buying an item off guild store hardly requires any risk/effort.
And no, grinding gold does not require either, especially considering how easy it is in this game (2.9 million & counting here).kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »No one is forcing you to run anything. Also it opens up options of getting the item from a friend, guildy or buying it. In the end you would get the item sooner not later.
No. Everyone would get the item sooner, not later. How much is that item really worth then, if everyone has it?
And what if I actually want to earn that item, instead of buying it from a guild store or a friend? (Yes, I could easily do that with the amount of money I have)kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »badmojo0777b14_ESO wrote: »no BOP would lead to too many bad player sjust buying upgrades they don't deserve, and too many top raiding guilds selling top notch gear for mad profits, destroying an already weak economy, and guaranteeing that raiders would have the most gold
It is currently BoP, it doesn't take a "top raiding guild" to raid any of ESO content. I think your arguments are excellent for why it should go BoE.
So, when did your guild kill Serpent hardmode? Or even regular Serpent (or Vet Arena)? Just curious
There are a few really great ideas out there.- One person suggested to link the equipability of specific items to achievements. E.g. you can't equip Sanctum items unless you've run and beat that particular dugeon. This idea has a lot of potential and different tier items could be linked to achievements of varying difficulty level for the same dugeon. A side effect would be that it makes the achievements worth something.
- The original poster mentioned to reduce the drop rate of rare items.
- I suggested to control the drop rate of specific items on a player level. For example, it could be controlled in a way that every item may only drop once a week for any given player. This would greatly reduce farming.
- Then someone else suggested to carry over WoWs 2h party trade mechanic.
Just to name a few.
There are so many options to remove BoP and even BoE, without ruining anything. In fact you would keep the existing reward mechanics alive and remove frustration points and improve the importance of the economy at the same time.
Whoever says that removing BoP or BoE is a bad idea is simply not creative enough to imagine an innovative solution.
Agreed and well said, BoE and BoP are crutches that designers have been relying on for far to long, it's time for a change.0 -
amasuriel✭✭✭✭I really like the idea of dungeon / trial / DSA loot being BoE BUT having an achievement requirement to equip.
I think this removed people's complaint (which I think is valid) about people who never once ran the content buying all the items, but still allows there to be an economy around the sale of those items to people who didn't get what they were looking for yet.
Yes technically you can get people who ran it once then buy all the gear, but if you completed vet DSA and you would rather pay 500k to buy a master weapon then run DSA 20 more times I don't see the issue with that. Same with the undaunted gear etc.
1 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I really like the idea of dungeon / trial / DSA loot being BoE BUT having an achievement requirement to equip.
I think this removed people's complaint (which I think is valid) about people who never once ran the content buying all the items, but still allows there to be an economy around the sale of those items to people who didn't get what they were looking for yet.
Yes technically you can get people who ran it once then buy all the gear, but if you completed vet DSA and you would rather pay 500k to buy a master weapon then run DSA 20 more times I don't see the issue with that. Same with the undaunted gear etc.
I must admit the achievement requirement is intriguing and is a very good example of how it doesn't take much thought to be a bit more ingenuitve rather than using some of the same old tired tricks.
Edit:
However, something just doesn't set right with me about peoples elitist attidudes about not wanting other people to have something just because they diddn't complete the content? It's rather selfish to say that their time and "skill" (doesn't take much as all the content in ESO is pretty easy) is worth less than that other persons 500k.
That said I would compromise for those who think others having something is a bad idea for the sake of just getting something done to fix the current horrible system.
BTW: I have one of those Master Healing staff on a Tank character and I am dreading the fact that I will have to vend or decon it.Edited by kelly.medleyb14_ESO on January 15, 2015 5:49PM0 -
UrQuan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
As the person who originally posted that idea, I would like to point out that I hadn't given the idea more than a minute of thought, and not only did I fully expect there would be flaws with the idea, but I was hoping people would find and point out such flaws. So thank you for that!Be prepared to face criticism then & address valid points of concern that might break the system you have envisioned. To name a few:- One person suggested to link the equipability of specific items to achievements. E.g. you can't equip Sanctum items unless you've run and beat that particular dugeon. This idea has a lot of potential and different tier items could be linked to achievements of varying difficulty level for the same dugeon. A side effect would be that it makes the achievements worth something.
Achievements are already worth something: achievement points (and Undaunted reputation/dyes/titles in some cases).
If all I had to do to get best gear in game was run SO one time, then what reason would I have to ever go back there?
What would stop me (and others) then from complaining of having nothing to do, when one run is enough to reap all rewards?
I'd also like to say that in his reply to this post, I think @spoqster has come up with some good refinements of my idea that address your criticism. Better ideas than I probably would have come up with
I hope you read through his post and reply to it with any further concerns/criticism!
Someone stole my sweetrollCaius Drusus Imperial DK (DC)
Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC)
Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP)
Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD)
J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD)Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC)
Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP)
Manut Redguard Temp (AD)
Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP)
Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD)Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP)
Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC)
Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP)
Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC)
Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
As the person who originally posted that idea, I would like to point out that I hadn't given the idea more than a minute of thought, and not only did I fully expect there would be flaws with the idea, but I was hoping people would find and point out such flaws. So thank you for that!Be prepared to face criticism then & address valid points of concern that might break the system you have envisioned. To name a few:- One person suggested to link the equipability of specific items to achievements. E.g. you can't equip Sanctum items unless you've run and beat that particular dugeon. This idea has a lot of potential and different tier items could be linked to achievements of varying difficulty level for the same dugeon. A side effect would be that it makes the achievements worth something.
Achievements are already worth something: achievement points (and Undaunted reputation/dyes/titles in some cases).
If all I had to do to get best gear in game was run SO one time, then what reason would I have to ever go back there?
What would stop me (and others) then from complaining of having nothing to do, when one run is enough to reap all rewards?
I'd also like to say that in his reply to this post, I think @spoqster has come up with some good refinements of my idea that address your criticism. Better ideas than I probably would have come up with
I hope you read through his post and reply to it with any further concerns/criticism!
I have nothing else to add to his post, it could work, as long as it gives reason for people (besides making money) to run trials/dungeons.
I would still prefer having NbG/token systems in place, but that is likely more because of my traditional views when it comes to MMOs, than the other idea being "worse".
Only thing I can say, is that using Need/Greed and/or token systems is safer and feels "ok" while playing, since it has been done in plenty of other MMOs.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »
In no way at all, and I don't see myself anywhere implying it shouldn't be possible.
But it should not be (and is not) everyone's motivation for running trials/dungeons
See vet. Arena or SO for example, you can currently still make a lot (vet. Arena) or a little (SO) money by running them, since there are sets dropping that sell pretty well in gstores.Edited by DDuke on January 16, 2015 11:00AM1 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »
In no way at all, and I don't see myself anywhere implying it shouldn't be possible.
But it should not be (and is not) everyone's motivation for running trials/dungeons
See vet. Arena or SO for example, you can currently still make a lot (vet. Arena) or a little (SO) money by running them, since there are sets dropping that sell pretty well in gstores.
The quote is right about my statement.
Edit: Not trying to be mean but the way you worded it makes it seem that running the dungeon to just make money was not a valid motivation.Edited by kelly.medleyb14_ESO on January 16, 2015 11:35PM0 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
Dunno, I assumed it wasn't as the OP used the term BOP so I assumed he was referring to truly character-bound items somewhere.fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »No, simply change BoP to BoA (account) and all's good.
But it is already that?!
/Skexis
It binds to your account on pickup.ArconSeptim wrote: »BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away
Pretty much this ^ all these other solutions are ok but just making them BoE is the best and easiest solution.kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »BugCollector wrote: »I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.
That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.
If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.
Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.
And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...
This is false. As stated the drop rate would be drastically reduced so very few people would have them, they just wouldn't go to waste.
So we would run difficult end game content for a even more minuscule chance at getting a piece of gear we can just pick off a Guild Store with enough cash?
I think I'll pass.
Whaaaat? If you don't run the difficult endgame content because you enjoy doing it, why do you play this game in the first place?
To me that doesn't make a bit of sense.
You get 3 lol's because if you want a non progression game you should probably look into FPS or something of that nature.0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭scrap bop and implement an item decay system. never understood why in new mmos items are undestroyable (by usgage).spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"2 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »
This makes no sense, gold farmers would reduce the price of said items not increase them, also I think you overestimate the resources of gold farmers, they are busy gathering raw mats not farming end game dungeons.
Not to mention gold farming isn't even an issue in this game any more ZoS pretty much nuked them.
Fear is always a very poor reason for restricting freedoms.
I didn't mean that gold sellers farm items...
People spend real money to get gold so they can use it to buy things in game. Things like high powered items. The more high-powered items on the (in-game) market, the more people will be buying gold to buy the items. So keeping some items BoP discourages this. Does that make sense?
And I'm sure gold sellers can always find a way to capitalize on any game.
So you want restrictions put upon yourself because you fear someone might buy gold from someone else?
Yes this is a very big problem in MMOs which is why ZoS put such a priority in nuking them as you said. Go look at the GW2 economy and tell me how well the rare legendary precursors market went due to them being BOE. If you can't see why end game gear should not be BOP then you haven't played enough MMOs. Lynessa and other have given you why we have the system we have now. To your statement in a previous post where you said that the guy with enough gold has just as much right to wear said equipment that the raider acquired through actually playing the content is untrue. That is the kind of system F2P, cash shop, and B2P MMOs harbor too because new players will drop tons of real world money to catch up to the veterans. A game like ESO which is a p2p MMO wants to reward completion and reward player effort. Being able to just outright buy the equipment does in fact diminish the reward therefore directly reduces the overall appeal of completing said content.Edited by Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO on January 17, 2015 1:52AM0 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »
This makes no sense, gold farmers would reduce the price of said items not increase them, also I think you overestimate the resources of gold farmers, they are busy gathering raw mats not farming end game dungeons.
Not to mention gold farming isn't even an issue in this game any more ZoS pretty much nuked them.
Fear is always a very poor reason for restricting freedoms.
I didn't mean that gold sellers farm items...
People spend real money to get gold so they can use it to buy things in game. Things like high powered items. The more high-powered items on the (in-game) market, the more people will be buying gold to buy the items. So keeping some items BoP discourages this. Does that make sense?
And I'm sure gold sellers can always find a way to capitalize on any game.
So you want restrictions put upon yourself because you fear someone might buy gold from someone else?
Yes this is a very big problem in MMOs which is why ZoS but such a priority in nuking them as you said. Go look at the GW2 economy and tell me how well the rare legendary precursors market went due to them being BOE. If you can't see why end game gear should not be BOP then you haven't played enough MMOs. Lynessa and other have given you why we have the system we have now. To your statement in a previous post where you said that the guy with enough gold has just as much right to wear said equipment that the raider acquired through actually playing the content is untrue. That is the kind of system F2P, cash shop, and B2P MMOs harbor too because new players will drop tons of real world money to catch up to the veterans. A game like ESO which is a p2p MMO wants to reward completion and reward player effort. Being able to just outright buy the equipment does in fact diminish the reward therefore directly reduces the overall appeal of completing said content.
It has been quite eradicated and making BoP BoE will not affect it either way. Quit being so selfish and paranoid.0 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »
This makes no sense, gold farmers would reduce the price of said items not increase them, also I think you overestimate the resources of gold farmers, they are busy gathering raw mats not farming end game dungeons.
Not to mention gold farming isn't even an issue in this game any more ZoS pretty much nuked them.
Fear is always a very poor reason for restricting freedoms.
I didn't mean that gold sellers farm items...
People spend real money to get gold so they can use it to buy things in game. Things like high powered items. The more high-powered items on the (in-game) market, the more people will be buying gold to buy the items. So keeping some items BoP discourages this. Does that make sense?
And I'm sure gold sellers can always find a way to capitalize on any game.
So you want restrictions put upon yourself because you fear someone might buy gold from someone else?
Yes this is a very big problem in MMOs which is why ZoS but such a priority in nuking them as you said. Go look at the GW2 economy and tell me how well the rare legendary precursors market went due to them being BOE. If you can't see why end game gear should not be BOP then you haven't played enough MMOs. Lynessa and other have given you why we have the system we have now. To your statement in a previous post where you said that the guy with enough gold has just as much right to wear said equipment that the raider acquired through actually playing the content is untrue. That is the kind of system F2P, cash shop, and B2P MMOs harbor too because new players will drop tons of real world money to catch up to the veterans. A game like ESO which is a p2p MMO wants to reward completion and reward player effort. Being able to just outright buy the equipment does in fact diminish the reward therefore directly reduces the overall appeal of completing said content.
It has been quite eradicated and making BoP BoE will not affect it either way. Quit being so selfish and paranoid.
Looks at the pot calling the kettle black
it has not been eradicated I know that for sure. The reason you don't see on the surface as much anymore like we did at launch is because of the BoP system we have now has helped greatly reduce the the amount of profit gold sites can make off this game. Along with the active smiting ZoS has done. Nothing I have said points to me being selfish in any way, so thanks for proving my point in providing no rebuttal and only attacking by calling me selfish and paranoid. Like another guy said, having my own loot is great, gone are the days of Dragon Kill Points and I am glad. 1 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »
This makes no sense, gold farmers would reduce the price of said items not increase them, also I think you overestimate the resources of gold farmers, they are busy gathering raw mats not farming end game dungeons.
Not to mention gold farming isn't even an issue in this game any more ZoS pretty much nuked them.
Fear is always a very poor reason for restricting freedoms.
I didn't mean that gold sellers farm items...
People spend real money to get gold so they can use it to buy things in game. Things like high powered items. The more high-powered items on the (in-game) market, the more people will be buying gold to buy the items. So keeping some items BoP discourages this. Does that make sense?
And I'm sure gold sellers can always find a way to capitalize on any game.
So you want restrictions put upon yourself because you fear someone might buy gold from someone else?
Yes this is a very big problem in MMOs which is why ZoS but such a priority in nuking them as you said. Go look at the GW2 economy and tell me how well the rare legendary precursors market went due to them being BOE. If you can't see why end game gear should not be BOP then you haven't played enough MMOs. Lynessa and other have given you why we have the system we have now. To your statement in a previous post where you said that the guy with enough gold has just as much right to wear said equipment that the raider acquired through actually playing the content is untrue. That is the kind of system F2P, cash shop, and B2P MMOs harbor too because new players will drop tons of real world money to catch up to the veterans. A game like ESO which is a p2p MMO wants to reward completion and reward player effort. Being able to just outright buy the equipment does in fact diminish the reward therefore directly reduces the overall appeal of completing said content.
It has been quite eradicated and making BoP BoE will not affect it either way. Quit being so selfish and paranoid.
Looks at the pot calling the kettle black it has not been eradicated I know that for sure. The reason you don't see on the surface as much anymore like we did at launch is because of the BoP system we have now has helped greatly reduce the the amount of profit gold sites can make off this game. Along with the active smiting ZoS has done. Nothing I have said points to me being selfish in any way, so thanks for proving my point in providing no rebuttal and only attacking by calling me selfish and paranoid. Like another guy said, having my own loot is great, gone are the days of Dragon Kill Points and I am glad.
Please identify the hypocrisy for the life of me I don't see it. You are the only one trying to restrict others game play because you fear it might promote gold farmers in some way, irrational fear is called paranoia.
It most certainly has been eradicated, ZoS has done a wonderful job of destroying all gold sellers I haven't had one message via mail or any other fashion in 6+ months.0 -
Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭Zershar_Vemod wrote: »Zershar_Vemod wrote: »Sorry, but the moment items like Vicious Ophidian, or Undaunted sets become BoE (read: instantly available for people with a lot of gold) is the moment I stop PvEing altogether and then spend all days complaining how there's nothing worth doing in the game.
You can't let people work hard to achieve something, then give it away basically for free to players pretty much fresh out of leveling process, that's just backwards thinking. If other players worked hard (and were skillful enough) to achieve those items, then so should you.
I'm not saying there are no faults with the game's loot systems, but BoE loot would only be a step backwards.
Other, more feasible solutions:- Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).
- Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).
I would also be fine with need/greed for group dungeons and trials, as well as a token system for Undaunted pledges.
Would only work if it was not forced on groups and lead could choose to activate that, otherwise, you'll see nothing but people needing on everything.
I actually saw very little of this in other games with an NBG system, even when it was active for PUGs.
Well I guess more "recent" games like STO and SWTOR are possible indicators that the trend of needing everything might be making a small comeback.
I'd be happy with Bound to Account items replacing BoP.
BoP IS bound to account, put that stuff on your bank and check1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bind-on-Pickup is a slap in the face to solo/duo players who pay their $15 sub every month and play for hours every day but can NEVER get their hands on useful sets like Wise Mage. ZoS won't let us play for these items, but they won't let us grind for them, either... it's lame and needs to STOP.
Just make everything Bind-on-Equip and the problem is solved fairly for everyone. There is no need for complicated token schemes or whatever, just let us have an open market!#CAREBEARMASTERRACE3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Bind-on-Pickup is a slap in the face to solo/duo players who pay their $15 sub every month and play for hours every day but can NEVER get their hands on useful sets like Wise Mage. ZoS won't let us play for these items, but they won't let us grind for them, either... it's lame and needs to STOP.
... what does ZOS have to do with what you do in game? If you decide not to partake in certain content (e.g. trials or PvP), then that is your loss.
It is as if I said "I don't like leveling, give me VR14 for free".Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Just make everything Bind-on-Equip and the problem is solved fairly for everyone. There is no need for complicated token schemes or whatever, just let us have an open market!
You mean that you want free stuff, without actually having to earn it?
That'd be a slap in the face of every dedicated end game raider out there.Edited by DDuke on January 18, 2015 8:52PM3
i´ve got sth better than you...