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Why BoP is a terrible idea.
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Paulhewhewria✭✭✭I see both points of this such as if BOE is removed the items will be more open and the other point is that it would cheapen the worth of the item if anyone could get it.We need to find a middle ground as said already maybe a need/greed system or make it to where if you have done the content have a way to get it.0 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, today's 100% rng + BoP is terrible. Some guys gets all their stuff in a few days, fresh out of leveling or back from a 6 months break, no effort just luck.
Than you have miserable QQ-ers like myself that's done almost 150 Undaunted gold Pledges and still no Engine Guardian shoulders. That only gets legendary heavy armor + well fitted from PvP leader-boards. That's done hundreds of VR dungeons and no Wormcult set. It's so discouraging you stop bothering after a while and just give up.
But BoE is still not fine or compatible with the most challenging content in a mmorpg. It would be madness if we could sell or trade unique loot from SO or vet DSA, to rookies that never set their foot in the instance. Loot distribution or rewards from harder content must be limited to those that took part in clearing in.
Ideally the game should have some sort of currency/token allowing us to trade for pieces that never drops. Maybe 1 chest in the end with need/greed in addition to individual loot from the boss. But I doubt that's a main priority for ZoS right now. Maybe in a year from now. Still feel a bit sad that I(regardless of effort) cant try out certain sets in this game.3 -
Ahdora✭✭✭✭✭Zershar_Vemod wrote: »Sorry, but the moment items like Vicious Ophidian, or Undaunted sets become BoE (read: instantly available for people with a lot of gold) is the moment I stop PvEing altogether and then spend all days complaining how there's nothing worth doing in the game.
You can't let people work hard to achieve something, then give it away basically for free to players pretty much fresh out of leveling process, that's just backwards thinking. If other players worked hard (and were skillful enough) to achieve those items, then so should you.
I'm not saying there are no faults with the game's loot systems, but BoE loot would only be a step backwards.
Other, more feasible solutions:- Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).
- Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).
I would also be fine with need/greed for group dungeons and trials, as well as a token system for Undaunted pledges.
Would only work if it was not forced on groups and lead could choose to activate that, otherwise, you'll see nothing but people needing on everything.
I actually saw very little of this in other games with an NBG system, even when it was active for PUGs.Heals With Stick, V11 Argonian Nightblade Healer, NA-EP0 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭BugCollector wrote: »I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.
That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.
If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.
Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.
And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...
This is false. As stated the drop rate would be drastically reduced so very few people would have them, they just wouldn't go to waste.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »BugCollector wrote: »I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.
That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.
If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.
Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.
And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...
This is false. As stated the drop rate would be drastically reduced so very few people would have them, they just wouldn't go to waste.
So we would run difficult end game content for a even more minuscule chance at getting a piece of gear we can just pick off a Guild Store with enough cash?
I think I'll pass.2 -
Zershar_Vemod✭✭✭✭✭Zershar_Vemod wrote: »Sorry, but the moment items like Vicious Ophidian, or Undaunted sets become BoE (read: instantly available for people with a lot of gold) is the moment I stop PvEing altogether and then spend all days complaining how there's nothing worth doing in the game.
You can't let people work hard to achieve something, then give it away basically for free to players pretty much fresh out of leveling process, that's just backwards thinking. If other players worked hard (and were skillful enough) to achieve those items, then so should you.
I'm not saying there are no faults with the game's loot systems, but BoE loot would only be a step backwards.
Other, more feasible solutions:- Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).
- Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).
I would also be fine with need/greed for group dungeons and trials, as well as a token system for Undaunted pledges.
Would only work if it was not forced on groups and lead could choose to activate that, otherwise, you'll see nothing but people needing on everything.
I actually saw very little of this in other games with an NBG system, even when it was active for PUGs.
Well I guess more "recent" games like STO and SWTOR are possible indicators that the trend of needing everything might be making a small comeback.
I'd be happy with Bound to Account items replacing BoP.Edited by Zershar_Vemod on January 15, 2015 2:35AMHouse Nyssara (NA)
Black Market Traders
Order of the Lamp Post
Thorn Brigade
VR15 Nightblade Vampire0 -
Ahdora✭✭✭✭✭Zershar_Vemod wrote: »Zershar_Vemod wrote: »Sorry, but the moment items like Vicious Ophidian, or Undaunted sets become BoE (read: instantly available for people with a lot of gold) is the moment I stop PvEing altogether and then spend all days complaining how there's nothing worth doing in the game.
You can't let people work hard to achieve something, then give it away basically for free to players pretty much fresh out of leveling process, that's just backwards thinking. If other players worked hard (and were skillful enough) to achieve those items, then so should you.
I'm not saying there are no faults with the game's loot systems, but BoE loot would only be a step backwards.
Other, more feasible solutions:- Make the loot system less punishing, by introducing a Need/Greed system for the most difficult content only (SO/Vet Arena).
- Add a token or a reputation system for Undaunted shoulders (but make sure it's still difficult to get them).
I would also be fine with need/greed for group dungeons and trials, as well as a token system for Undaunted pledges.
Would only work if it was not forced on groups and lead could choose to activate that, otherwise, you'll see nothing but people needing on everything.
I actually saw very little of this in other games with an NBG system, even when it was active for PUGs.
Well I guess more "recent" games like STO and SWTOR are possible indicators that the trend of needing everything might be making a small comeback.
I'd be happy with Bound to Account items replacing BoP.
I played SWTOR quite a bit. Interesting, I guess this is a YMMV situation.Heals With Stick, V11 Argonian Nightblade Healer, NA-EP0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭The need and greed system would not work with ESO. You are asking for loot to be changed and NOT be independent of each party member . Meaning everyone shares loot that's dropped. So the need and greed system needs to NOT be in this game. I rather like having my own loot.
A different method would be greatly appreciated.3 -
Ahdora✭✭✭✭✭The need and greed system would not work with ESO. You are asking for loot to be changed and NOT be independent of each party member . Meaning everyone shares loot that's dropped. So the need and greed system needs to NOT be in this game. I rather like having my own loot.
A different method would be greatly appreciated.
My proposal would only NBG for purple and above. The rest of the loot would be yours. EQ2 had an NBG system where the group leader could choose the level at which the roll would begin. So I'm suggesting that sort of system, but without the party lead control.
I'm completely open to other options. I'm just not enamored with BoP+RNG. As they say in infomercials, "there's gotta be a better way!"Heals With Stick, V11 Argonian Nightblade Healer, NA-EP1 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
This makes no sense, gold farmers would reduce the price of said items not increase them, also I think you overestimate the resources of gold farmers, they are busy gathering raw mats not farming end game dungeons.
Not to mention gold farming isn't even an issue in this game any more ZoS pretty much nuked them.
Fear is always a very poor reason for restricting freedoms.WarlordGrievous wrote: »I see both points of this such as if BOE is removed the items will be more open and the other point is that it would cheapen the worth of the item if anyone could get it.We need to find a middle ground as said already maybe a need/greed system or make it to where if you have done the content have a way to get it.
Only it wouldn't cheapen anything the items drop rates would be adjusted accordingly.kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »BugCollector wrote: »I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.
That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.
If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.
Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.
And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...
This is false. As stated the drop rate would be drastically reduced so very few people would have them, they just wouldn't go to waste.
So we would run difficult end game content for a even more minuscule chance at getting a piece of gear we can just pick off a Guild Store with enough cash?
I think I'll pass.
No one is forcing you to run anything. Also it opens up options of getting the item from a friend, guildy or buying it. In the end you would get the item sooner not later.1 -
Lynnessa✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »
This makes no sense, gold farmers would reduce the price of said items not increase them, also I think you overestimate the resources of gold farmers, they are busy gathering raw mats not farming end game dungeons.
Not to mention gold farming isn't even an issue in this game any more ZoS pretty much nuked them.
Fear is always a very poor reason for restricting freedoms.
I didn't mean that gold sellers farm items...
People spend real money to get gold so they can use it to buy things in game. Things like high powered items. The more high-powered items on the (in-game) market, the more people will be buying gold to buy the items. So keeping some items BoP discourages this. Does that make sense?
And I'm sure gold sellers can always find a way to capitalize on any game.Edited by Lynnessa on January 15, 2015 2:54AM0 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »
This makes no sense, gold farmers would reduce the price of said items not increase them, also I think you overestimate the resources of gold farmers, they are busy gathering raw mats not farming end game dungeons.
Not to mention gold farming isn't even an issue in this game any more ZoS pretty much nuked them.
Fear is always a very poor reason for restricting freedoms.
I didn't mean that gold sellers farm items...
People spend real money to get gold so they can use it to buy things in game. Things like high powered items. The more high-powered items on the (in-game) market, the more people will be buying gold to buy the items. So keeping some items BoP discourages this. Does that make sense?
And I'm sure gold sellers can always find a way to capitalize on any game.
So you want restrictions put upon yourself because you fear someone might buy gold from someone else?0 -
no BOP would lead to too many bad player sjust buying upgrades they don't deserve, and too many top raiding guilds selling top notch gear for mad profits, destroying an already weak economy, and guaranteeing that raiders would have the most gold2
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kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭badmojo0777b14_ESO wrote: »no BOP would lead to too many bad player sjust buying upgrades they don't deserve, and too many top raiding guilds selling top notch gear for mad profits, destroying an already weak economy, and guaranteeing that raiders would have the most gold
It is currently BoP, it doesn't take a "top raiding guild" to raid any of ESO content. I think your arguments are excellent for why it should go BoE.2 -
Circuitous✭✭✭✭✭It'd be really cool if the items in question (Undaunted helms, special trials sets, etc.) were guaranteed drops when certain requirements were met. Then you have a distinctive goal to work towards without needing it to be repetitive.Ｔｈａｎｋ Ｓｔｅｎｄａｒｒ ｉｔ’ｓ Ｆｒｅｄａｓ．
Elanirne: Altmer Templar Healer, DC
Auria Dolabella: Imperial Nightblade Tank, DC3 -
Lynnessa✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »So you want restrictions put upon yourself because you fear someone might buy gold from someone else?
Nevermind, you're totally missing my point.
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kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Well, today's 100% rng + BoP is terrible. Some guys gets all their stuff in a few days, fresh out of leveling or back from a 6 months break, no effort just luck.
Than you have miserable QQ-ers like myself that's done almost 150 Undaunted gold Pledges and still no Engine Guardian shoulders. That only gets legendary heavy armor + well fitted from PvP leader-boards. That's done hundreds of VR dungeons and no Wormcult set. It's so discouraging you stop bothering after a while and just give up.
But BoE is still not fine or compatible with the most challenging content in a mmorpg. It would be madness if we could sell or trade unique loot from SO or vet DSA, to rookies that never set their foot in the instance. Loot distribution or rewards from harder content must be limited to those that took part in clearing in.
Ideally the game should have some sort of currency/token allowing us to trade for pieces that never drops. Maybe 1 chest in the end with need/greed in addition to individual loot from the boss. But I doubt that's a main priority for ZoS right now. Maybe in a year from now. Still feel a bit sad that I(regardless of effort) cant try out certain sets in this game.
Yeah I feel for you, I have gotten all the helms I need/want and would love to help out guildies by running and passing them off or selling them for a decent price.
I totally disagree that BoE is not compatible, most things in ESO are BoE and it works just fine. If a "rookie" has the money to pay then they deserve to be able to buy it as much as the "non rookie" deserves to be able to sell it to him.
Token system is fine but it is involved, they should just make all BoP stuff BoE then lower the drop rates to rare, after that they can decide if they want a token system.2 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭I like BoP for trophies, because they are tokens/rewards for completing specific content, and you shouldn't be able to give those to people who haven't completed that content.
For loot like what you get from Undaunted pledges, maybe each piece could be tied to a specific achievement that you get for completing that particular pledge. Then it can only be equipped if you have completed that specific achievement. That way, if RNG keeps giving you a piece that you don't need, you can try to trade that piece to someone who got the piece that you do need, but it's still restricted so that it can't just be sold to anyone and it won't flood the market.
Just an idea, and there are probably flaws with the idea that I haven't thought of.
Now that is one good and creative idea. I like it. This way many birds are killed.
Items are more freely abailable, but not to those who haven't earned them. Trading becomes more meaningful as a whole. And even achievements become more meaningful, continuing the process they started with the dyes.
Add to that a drop limit per player (e.g. one item of the dame kind per week) and you'd prevent the items from flooding the markets.
I don't want to see farming incentivized, but I do want to be able to sell that rare item to someone who desperately needs it.Well, today's 100% rng + BoP is terrible. Some guys gets all their stuff in a few days, fresh out of leveling or back from a 6 months break, no effort just luck.
Than you have miserable QQ-ers like myself that's done almost 150 Undaunted gold Pledges and still no Engine Guardian shoulders. That only gets legendary heavy armor + well fitted from PvP leader-boards. That's done hundreds of VR dungeons and no Wormcult set. It's so discouraging you stop bothering after a while and just give up.
But BoE is still not fine or compatible with the most challenging content in a mmorpg. It would be madness if we could sell or trade unique loot from SO or vet DSA, to rookies that never set their foot in the instance. Loot distribution or rewards from harder content must be limited to those that took part in clearing in.
Ideally the game should have some sort of currency/token allowing us to trade for pieces that never drops. Maybe 1 chest in the end with need/greed in addition to individual loot from the boss. But I doubt that's a main priority for ZoS right now. Maybe in a year from now. Still feel a bit sad that I(regardless of effort) cant try out certain sets in this game.
You can have my Worm Cult pieces, I don't need them. Oh, wait, you can't...0 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »BugCollector wrote: »I just want to be able to buy Master Weapons. Things as powerful as these should not be bound.
That is the exact reason they (and other good loot) are BoP & hard to get.
If they were BoE, soon everyone & their mothers would have them & they'd be worth nothing, while all the other weapons in game would be rendered obsolete due to easily achievable, superior weapon.
Good example of this is last summer, when they "accidentally" made all trial sets BoE. Within a week, everyone you met was running around in trials sets, before they managed to fix it & make them BoP again.
And since those things don't hold half the appeal the tier 2 (I think we can call them that already) trial sets have, you can imagine the result BoE would have...
This is false. As stated the drop rate would be drastically reduced so very few people would have them, they just wouldn't go to waste.
So we would run difficult end game content for a even more minuscule chance at getting a piece of gear we can just pick off a Guild Store with enough cash?
I think I'll pass.
Whaaaat? If you don't run the difficult endgame content because you enjoy doing it, why do you play this game in the first place?
To me that doesn't make a bit of sense.4 -
Djem✭✭✭They should either add a global auction house, or remove BoP. The existence of one negates the absence of the other.Glarthir is crazy. Maybe harmless crazy, maybe not.
Dunmer Nightblade, Ebonheart Pact, EU PC Megaserver.2 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, simply change BoP to BoA (account) and all's good.kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »A ) Make all BoP item's BoE (yes including pets why force us to keep or delete pets we don't want?) At the same time greatly reduce the drop rate of said BoP items.
B ) Make BoP gear from dungeons trade-able for a time, this is my least favourite because it really doesn't handle the Gold key shoulder rewards.
C ) Need before Greed system. The group you are with rolls for desirable loot, still doesn't handle shoulder BoP rewards which should be made BoE.
I believe if you implement solution A you will see a much happier economy and healthier game with more replayability of content.
I'm fine with not being able to trade stuff to others, as someone said earlier it's not like this game is stuffed full of BoP stuff, however I'm one who believes it's the PLAYER that achieves something when a character of theirs gets a drop, it's not the CHARACTER who did it.
I much prefer playing games where BoP hardly exists or doesn't exist at all and where Bind on Account is the norm for 'non-tradables', ESO needs this too.0 -
Skexis✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »No, simply change BoP to BoA (account) and all's good.
But it is already that?!
/Skexis1 -
ArconSeptim✭✭✭✭BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away BOP- needs- to-go -away3
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The only thing I'd like to see is the ability to trade an item within your group until you leave the dungeon. That way you all have done the content and if someone gets luckier constantly they can trade it away.
The only issue I see with that is that people would then sell the loot right. They'd just get one person to leave the group and the zone, and invite someone else into the group (for a nice sum of gold, of course) to come in and have the item traded to them.
Personally, I would have it so that if someone left the instance, then the items all become bound. (So hopefully you are with a group you trust and not a troll) or something similar (I'm not sure what the technical limitations of the system are). But I did think about that and would definitely create an answer for it in the programming in their shoes.
Wouldn't a need/greed system work in pretty much the same way?
Would be easier to implement & less hassle imo
idk, I'm not much for having a "chance" to get an item, then having to go for another "chance" if more than one player wants an item. (Especially in my group where we all have multiple vets/classes and use all kinds of items)
I'd rather be put in a position where if I lucked out and got something, I could decided to gift it and be awesome, or trade it for something or sell it to someone else (depending on what someone desired to do).
But the need/greed thing is ok.
Can pretty much whole heartedly agree.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Ahdora✭✭✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »No, simply change BoP to BoA (account) and all's good.
But it is already that?!
/Skexis
Yep.
You can put BoP items in your bank and pull them out on a different character.
Man I hope they haven't deconned/vendored a bunch of stuff their alts could use...Heals With Stick, V11 Argonian Nightblade Healer, NA-EP0 -
SandstormSoul ShrivenCome on guys.
Put a 3 hour timer on the boss drops and be trade-able to whoever was in the party/instance when said boss was killed.
Example: Bob, Gertrude, Frodo and NoobPwner team up to run SuperGenericFireDungeon...ofdoom. They barely managed to defeat the boss through the cunning use of movement keys to not stand in fire. CONGLATURATION. The boss Super Sepirotxx dropped the legendary TinyMasamune.
The weapon is tied to Bob, Gertrude, Legolazz and NoobPwner. They're free to trade it between themselves until one of them equips it or the 3 hour timer expires, binding it to whoever was holding it.Edited by Sandstorm on January 15, 2015 1:11PM6 -
Ahdora✭✭✭✭✭Come on guys.
Put a 3 hour timer on the boss drops and be trade-able to whoever was in the party/instance when said boss was killed.
Example: Bob, Gertrude, Frodo and NoobPwner team up to run SuperGenericFireDungeon...ofdoom. They barely managed to defeat the boss through the cunning use of movement keys to not stand in fire. CONGLATURATION. The boss Super Sepirotxx dropped the legendary TinyMasamune.
The weapon is tied to Bob, Gertrude, Legolazz and NoobPwner. They're free to trade it between themselves until one of them equips it or the 3 hour timer expires, binding it to whoever was holding it.
This made me laugh way too hard. Here, take my awesome.Heals With Stick, V11 Argonian Nightblade Healer, NA-EP0 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Dunno, I assumed it wasn't as the OP used the term BOP so I assumed he was referring to truly character-bound items somewhere.fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »No, simply change BoP to BoA (account) and all's good.
But it is already that?!
/Skexis
0