Why 1.6 Ultimate Generation is a cop out

Cathexis · January 2015

Don't know why they are overhauling ultimates. Ults themselves aren't the problem, just infinite batswarm.

OrangeTheCat · January 2015

Well, PvE is dumbed down that's for sure. But I approve of the 1.6 changes to ulti gain. Spamming healing springs (or whatever) out of combat to gain ulti is just plain cheesy.

asneakybanana · January 2015

Heres my thoughts on how they should change it
1. Nerf combat frenzy. Gaining anywhere between 10-20% of your ultimate by getting a killing blow on a player that your already getting ultimate from by doing damage to is not okay and the AoE cap change will just make this more of a problem since you will be putting out much more DPS. Make it so that combat frenzy is 6,12 instead of 12,25.
2. AoE ultimate gain should be 1/4 of what it is now but single target. This way if 60 people want to stack up you get more ultimate like you should to punish them for stacking up but in small scale cases it will actually be worth it to use single target and focus down players. A similar nerf, while maybe 1/2 instead of 1/4, should be applied to AoE healing, while its still going to be capped at 6 healing springs spam shouldnt be the best way to generate ultimate for any class.
3. There should be no way to gain ultimate outside of combat. Whether its through the DK passive that gives 2 ultimate for using earthen heart abilities or through healing springs spam. If you're not in combat you shouldnt be able to generate ultimate period.
Also I like the idea of adding ultimate for skillful actions like interrupting and rezzing and stuff. One change I might add in is giving a ranged interrupt half the ultimate of a bash. Hopefully these changes will add a bit more depth to the game and reward the skilled players. Just my 2c tho.

Lava_Croft · January 2015

Huntler wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Why is weaving light attacks considered 'no skill', but gaining Ultimate for say, rezzing someone is? Or spamming heals? Or hold block? Or use siege? Seems a bit of an arbitrary distinction to me.

Because light attacking people already do by the mountainfull, it takes no special presence of mind or anything else to light attack. It takes heads up play to bash interrupt someone, or rez someone during a battle where that ultimate could help you end up winning it coupled with the benefit of battle rezzing someone back into a fight, where did I say spamming heals would give ultimate or holding block? I made points on those for critical moments that deserved ultimate buffs such as blocking a heavy attack (I gave that more for PvE since someone wanted pve benefits) and with healing it would be something like saving someone from death (perhaps they are 5% health or lower?). Yes these are skillful plays, good players understand the importance of siege in ANY fight, the good groups have players always dropping meatbags, oil cats, etc. This play should be promoted, spamming light attacks should not, it takes no awareness to do this, I feel the examples I gave are examples of things good players will identify when to complete and should be rewarded (seriously the best example is interrupting enemy spells).

You specifically mention blocking, healing, rezzing and sieging in your OP. Everybody is already perma-blocking in this game and everybody is already spamming heals in this game and (almost) everybody is already using siege in this game. Not enough people rez others, but none of these things require more skill than weaving light attacks. In fact, I dare to say they require less skill than properly weaving light attacks into your combos.

Nijjion · January 2015

They did the CoD approach to games with Ultimates... and that sucks. There's no skill in CoD type gameplay.

When games add in too much hand holding and take away skill gaps, they become boring. I can't say too much about the whole gaming having this as they are taking away AoE caps (well sort of 50% away we can say) but if they keep changing mechanics to lessen the skill gap then that's one thing that will lose their core hardcore fans at least.

That's why they are doing it as well.. they don't mind losing their hardcore skilled players as they are a minority compared to the casual who benefit in a closer skill gap game.

Poxheart · January 2015

LOL at the premise that "the best players" are the ones that spam AOE abilities to gain ultimate.

Lava_Croft · January 2015

Poxheart wrote: »

LOL at the premise that "the best players" are the ones that spam AOE abilities to gain ultimate.

Entire guilds are built around spamming as much batswarms as possible because it's skillful.

Huntler · January 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Why is weaving light attacks considered 'no skill', but gaining Ultimate for say, rezzing someone is? Or spamming heals? Or hold block? Or use siege? Seems a bit of an arbitrary distinction to me.

Because light attacking people already do by the mountainfull, it takes no special presence of mind or anything else to light attack. It takes heads up play to bash interrupt someone, or rez someone during a battle where that ultimate could help you end up winning it coupled with the benefit of battle rezzing someone back into a fight, where did I say spamming heals would give ultimate or holding block? I made points on those for critical moments that deserved ultimate buffs such as blocking a heavy attack (I gave that more for PvE since someone wanted pve benefits) and with healing it would be something like saving someone from death (perhaps they are 5% health or lower?). Yes these are skillful plays, good players understand the importance of siege in ANY fight, the good groups have players always dropping meatbags, oil cats, etc. This play should be promoted, spamming light attacks should not, it takes no awareness to do this, I feel the examples I gave are examples of things good players will identify when to complete and should be rewarded (seriously the best example is interrupting enemy spells).

You specifically mention blocking, healing, rezzing and sieging in your OP. Everybody is already perma-blocking in this game and everybody is already spamming heals in this game and (almost) everybody is already using siege in this game. Not enough people rez others, but none of these things require more skill than weaving light attacks. In fact, I dare to say they require less skill than properly weaving light attacks into your combos.

Sigh, you really need to work on reading comprehension. You are simplifying what I said to make it sound like it is less. Never did I say just blocking or just spamming heals, and I clarified what I mean by rezzing. I mean blocking under a certain situation (this I suggested for PvE, leave it out of PvP for all I care) as for healing, it is under a specific situation, one that is very rare and should be about burst healing not spamming healing springs (the example I gave is saving someone from death when they are below 5 or 10%). As for the rezzing, no rezzing by itself takes no skill especially when its not in combat. But that doesn't matter because if you rez someone out of combat then it won't matter. However, what if you were to rez someone during a fight, as some of us do. That is an important contribution to the fight. Remember what I initially said, its not only about skill, but about contributing/supporting the battle. These plays should be rewarded, inherently using siege is not skillful, but in the right situation and knowing to support a battle with it is (and should be rewarded).

Please stop trivializing my points to try and sum it up with saying oh block spamming and heal spamming is what I want...sigh.

And even then, feel free to nit pick you'll notice I mentioned suggestions but they don't have to be all of them. I want people to focus on the point of my post which is to prioritize skillful plays, not light attack spam.

Huntler · January 2015

Poxheart wrote: »

LOL at the premise that "the best players" are the ones that spam AOE abilities to gain ultimate.

Who here is claiming that? What....

Lava_Croft · January 2015

@Huntler You specifically mention how weaving light attacks does not require skill, while presenting a list of things you say do require skill, while in reality they require about zero skill. There is no nit-picking going at all, just confrontation with what you said yourself.

Poxheart · January 2015

The problem with ultimate generation from "critical" healing is that this game does not have targeted heals so it's random chance whether your heal or some other random player is the one that grants ultimate.

Nijjion · January 2015

Poxheart wrote: »

LOL at the premise that "the best players" are the ones that spam AOE abilities to gain ultimate.

As Huntler says noone is claiming using AoE skills means someone is skilled... But by that logic though it's skill using an AoE skill on 1 person. Though in reality you can add it's skill to know when not to use AoE and use single target abilities even though a AoE skill can be used on 5 people.

What you're mad about is people using the best effective ways to play the game. These are normally the best players due to efficient builds/gear and timing and game sense.

NordJitsu · January 2015

The one thing that doesn't make any sense in the op is the idea that interrupt from bash should be rewarded but ranges interrupt shouldn't. That smacks of a melee player being boast to his own style of play.

Shields are already OP. They don't need any more advantages.

Sotha_Sil · January 2015

Huntler wrote: »

TLDR: Change ulti generation to be based off of skill plays such as bash interrupts, rezzing, synergies, etc.

yeah maybe I didn't understand. Maybe you should learn how to summarize...

Anyway, now that we have seen that we actually agree on the fact that the gameplay should be more skillful than what it is right now, I want to say that I don't think your ideas are going to make any difference.

Furthermore, concerning the "it will still be an AoE feast", I mean come on... really ? AoE fest at the impact of course, but after that... I'm eager to see.

ps. I really love your point about the fact the Aoe feast will be going on"I know better how it will go but I won't explain it because it will suck and I want it to keep being bad so I can be better than others"! great stuff @Huntler, really helping to make a wonderful game !

Huntler · January 2015

NordJitsu wrote: »

The one thing that doesn't make any sense in the op is the idea that interrupt from bash should be rewarded but ranges interrupt shouldn't. That smacks of a melee player being boast to his own style of play.

Shields are already OP. They don't need any more advantages.

I have a logic behind it I swear

, although sneaky gave a good compromise. I am not a melee player btw if you think its a biased play, I am a healer actually

. The reason I said no originally to range interupts is right now crushing shock is a beast of an ability, sure its not used too much in massive group vs. group, but it is a fantastic ability that already sees a ton of use for all the utility/damage it provides. People literally spam this ability with light attack weaving already for good damage so to give them ultimate too would make it too powerful, sneaky's suggestion of it maybe being half the ultimate a melee bash would be seems reasonable to still give a bonus, but not as much as melee which feels like it should get more given how strong crushing shock is.

Poxheart · January 2015

Nijjion wrote: »

What you're mad about is people using the best effective ways to play the game. These are normally the best players due to efficient builds/gear and timing and game sense.

Dunno what gave you the impression I'm mad.

themizario · January 2015

Sypher wrote: »

I completely agree.

They took a communistic approach on ult gain.

No one likes communists.

^Best way to explain it to date.

Sypher · January 2015

Some of you are missing the point!

It's not about being able to build ultimate fast and drop one every 10 seconds.

It's about being able to be build ultimate faster than your opponent. (I know there is ult based passives but the core system of gaining ult is broken)

They could have just removed aoe buffs and cut ult gain by 75% and most of us would be very happy.

Lava_Croft · January 2015

I think most of us are already pretty happy with the upcoming changes, as evidenced by this thread.

Huntler · January 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think most of us are already pretty happy with the upcoming changes, as evidenced by this thread.

you sure? Just counted... looks like the majority is in favor of what I wrote.... by a big margin O.o

Lava_Croft · January 2015

Huntler wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think most of us are already pretty happy with the upcoming changes, as evidenced by this thread.

you sure? Just counted... looks like the majority is in favor of what I wrote.... by a big margin O.o

People who disagree will always be more inclined to post than people who agree. I admit that the thread will need some more time, so my statement might have been too soon to really say anything meaningful about it.

I can say with certainty that most people I talk to in Cyrodiil are very happy with the upcoming changes. The only ones I really hear crying are the perma-batswarmers.

Roechacca · January 2015

Ya I still don't see wat all the hubabaloo is all about . You just won't be able to cast healing springs on idle players anymore to get ultimates up .

Xsorus · January 2015

I'm of the opinion lets wait and see before demanding changes to a system that's about to vastly change in the first place

Tankqull · January 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

LOL at the premise that "the best players" are the ones that spam AOE abilities to gain ultimate.

Entire guilds are built around spamming as much batswarms as possible because it's skillful.

there is a severe difference in between skillfull and effective. its effective none can deny that but skill is not involved.

Cody · January 2015

To start off, Ultimate's should be what they are called, ULTIMATES; not a skill to be used every 6 seconds due to AOE spam.

I personally don't care what the solution is, I just want to see Ultimate spam reduced, because, at the rate they are used, they may as well just be a 6th ability on the bar, and not an ultimate slot.

Cody · January 2015

Your ideas I actually like...(wth is going on, I agree with you! what madness is this?? Sheogorath, I said knock the bullcrap off!) getting ultis for rezing people would be awesome, and effectively blocking attacks and other tactical means as a way to gain ultis would be cool too,

with the block heavies thing.... seeing as how most people use perma block builds.... would they still not generate quick ultimate? Unless everyone just stops using heavies...

Huntler · January 2015

Cody wrote: »

with the block heavies thing.... seeing as how most people use perma block builds.... would they still not generate quick ultimate? Unless everyone just stops using heavies...

This is why originally I didn't have blocking heavies in, I added it as a commentor suggested more things for PvErs. The best solution IMO would either be it would still be quite a little amount as compared to other plays or only work in PvE. Definitely don't want to reward perma blocking, but the tactical plays which in this case might be hard to differentiate.

I think of all the options I find either interrupting or rezzes the most interesting, it really rewards players who are paying attention. Several have pointed out how easy rezzing is and that rezzing isn't skillful, but they ignore the opportunities when it can be considered skillful, especially when doing it could provide ultimate (which would be a battle rez). Imagine the options it gives a player, should I stay in the fight or rez this guy? Maybe a couple seconds rez gives me 16 seconds worth of ultimate buff immediately.... reward the player for making a decision... or even allowing that decision gives chance for differentiation. It can also allow specialization, rez builds or assigned rezzers to farm ultimate. None of these options truely take all that much skill, a dash of awareness, a pinch of game mechanics, etc. but when applied to the right situations in the heat of battle allow for a far more dynamic ultimate system that we can still have scaled to be far reduced frequency overall than we do now, but just make it so that smart plays generate ultimate instead of brain dead plays (light attack spam). (Also note that in reverse of rezzes, interrupting a rez would obviously count as an interrupt and gain ultimate, we now have a dynamic focused around rezzes in which even PUGs will get rezzes given their ultiamte value, opposing teams will need to further prioritize preventing rezzes, and its a give and take of ultimate gain just from that one mechanic... there are half a dozen other options that could provide similar dynamics that would promote higher level play (and reward it).

smee_z · January 2015

Agree with OP. Gain ULT with select skillful plays. To add a few:

1. After successful bash interrupt enemy and lands a heavy attack in succession, instant ULT charged up.

2. Causing enemy with more than 50% health to die with fall damage, instant ULT charged up.

Also to add to the ULT gain mechanic, there should also be an ULT loss mechanic, like:

- Firing an ability in succession (at least 3 consecutive times) merits an ULT loss

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

I see where OP is coming from. I had a passing thought too that it was a simplistic solution to a worthy issue.

But sometimes, simple isn't necesarily bad.

For one, the ultimate generation needed to be looked at months ago. The devs solution seems effective and comes within a very large update. Adding more to it is beging for having more things potentially break.
Your idea to introduce a finess system to make better players gain slightly faster is great but it can be added at a later date, on its own and in a well thought out way.

Remember also that apparently, all ultimates have been buffed by a decent margin. It is a conditional sixth slot on our hotbars and trigger discipline will have more value from now on. Maybe it is worth seeing the new versions of the ultimates in a bare bone environment.

In short, I agree with the sentiment, but lets allow the devs to have some itterative development on this one.

Columba · January 2015

gibous wrote: »

Fully endorse this. Skill should be rewarded.

how is spamming aoe skillful? lol