Improvements for Stamina-Based Skills and Passives

ZoM_Head · September 2014

There is no proper AOE stamina based skills. Cleave and Whirlwind are kind of a joke compared to magicka based class skills and the destruction staff.

Father · September 2014

I disagree Whirlwind is size and animation is fine problem is the damage being too small to hurt, while light armor get spell penetration we get nothing so a skill that hits 300with penetration it can hit more and crit for 700 dmg (just a rough estimate) , so IMO thats why magicka spells overpower stamina skills.
Either you remove spell penetration from light armor or give medium/heavy armor piercing or penetration.

Father · September 2014

I disagree Whirlwind is size and animation is fine problem is the damage being too small to hurt, while light armor get spell penetration we get nothing so a skill that hits 300with penetration it can hit more and crit for 700 dmg (just a rough estimate) , so IMO thats why magicka spells overpower stamina skills.
Either you remove spell penetration from light armor or give medium/heavy armor piercing or penetration.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · September 2014

Penetration doesn't make a skill do more damage than is listed, so if you could penetrate all spell resistance, a spell that lists to hit for 300 would hit for 300 and crit for 450. There are other possible damage increasers that don't always change the number listed in the tooltips. Tho, it is only through a glitch with light armor trait and weapon trait penetration combination that anyone would ever bypass all spell resistance (and be sure that people take advantage of this). Realistically it would hit for less than listed even with whatever penetration you have as long as that penetration isn't 100%.

The same goes for physical damage and armor pen.

Posting in obviously abandoned thread.... They've taken to just being silent on any possible changes that will balance magicka and stamina. The lack of assurance just makes me want to stop playing until I see the magical patch notes tho.

set44ub17_ESO1 · September 2014

Regarding the update to having heavy attacks restore stamina should help a little, but seems like a quick fix, for now (i hope)

Why you guys made it where heavy attacks with staffs restore magic is beyond me....

The hole problem is that stamina builds are gimped right now, all class skills use magica, the problem is still that its smarter to go staffs cause now you can gain more magica with heavy attacks as well and still dodge, block, brake, bash, and run.

you could make it where these defensive moves actually have an amount cost to them, not a %.

you also could make melee users get major cost reduction to use these melee like defenses...block, dodge, brake, sprint, bash

Another idea make stamina attributes points add 15 like health does.

Kypho · October 2014

stamina: Weapon skills, break outs, rolls, blocking
magicka: just spamm all the crap, with nice spell pen. etc... light armor ftw.

it will never balanced. its screwed from the beginning.

Kypho · October 2014

set44ub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Regarding the update to having heavy attacks restore stamina should help a little, but seems like a quick fix, for now (i hope)

Why you guys made it where heavy attacks with staffs restore magic is beyond me....

The hole problem is that stamina builds are gimped right now, all class skills use magica, the problem is still that its smarter to go staffs cause now you can gain more magica with heavy attacks as well and still dodge, block, brake, bash, and run.

you could make it where these defensive moves actually have an amount cost to them, not a %.

you also could make melee users get major cost reduction to use these melee like defenses...block, dodge, brake, sprint, bash

Another idea make stamina attributes points add 15 like health does.

heavy attack yes, but 90% of attacks are CC and you need to break, or block. both using stamina. if you dont, you are screwed. worst combat system.

Shaun98ca2 · October 2014

set44ub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Regarding the update to having heavy attacks restore stamina should help a little, but seems like a quick fix, for now (i hope)

Why you guys made it where heavy attacks with staffs restore magic is beyond me....

The hole problem is that stamina builds are gimped right now, all class skills use magica, the problem is still that its smarter to go staffs cause now you can gain more magica with heavy attacks as well and still dodge, block, brake, bash, and run.

you could make it where these defensive moves actually have an amount cost to them, not a %.

you also could make melee users get major cost reduction to use these melee like defenses...block, dodge, brake, sprint, bash

Another idea make stamina attributes points add 15 like health does.

Well Restro Staff allowed Magicka return for HEALERS to be actually able to heal in a dungeon. Without the Magicka return Healers are just boned.....DPSer would struggle to complete content if not just flat out be incapable due to the limited resource pool.

Stamina thought with a limited resource pool had an actual better standing than Magicka due to increases in all Light/Heavy Attack damage...plus Stamina abilities scale to being on par with class abilities having zero points of Magicka. This in turn allows the Stamina build to use Stamina and Magicka for DPS that's worse than a FULL Magicka build's Magicka damage but better than that of FULL Magicka build without Resources.

Problem was Magicka builds with the use of the Restro Staff never ran out of Magicka. Then to make matters worse they got a 10% DPS increase.

EDIT:More

Essentially what this would have meant if not for the Restro Staff would have been.....

A Full Magicka user would during the course of combat would say get 10 casts before going OOM. Front loading those casts to OOM asap would give the BEST DPS values in game we have seen but then the DPS would fall fat useless as it was based on a limited resource. The secondary resource bar COULD be used for additional damage but that damage is only slightly better than that of a Light/Heavy Attack an almost negligible and simply better used for survival IE Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break. But the smarter player would know like 2 handers have a knockdown attack so that's just as useful if not more than a dodge.

But Stamina users on the other hand while drawing good DPS from their Stamina based skills and Light/Heavy Attacks as well as Magicka abilities(some that scale regardless of points IN Magicka) would never be able to front load the same damage as a Magicka user but in the prolonged battle would actually start to out shine the Magicka user being that the Stamina users DPS is still good even without BOTH resource pools depleted due to the increased Light/Heavy Attack not to mention the dual value of BOTH resource pool regenerating offering a Slight boost to DPS when available.

To play styles that would have been both very different but viable, but it all got screwed up due to TOO MUCH Magicka gain rendering Magicka build OVER POWERED while Stamina builds were viable and always were.

Sensesfail13 · October 2014

Im curious if an enrage has ever been considered for low-depleted stamina resources and another resource bar where dodge block etc would be drained from rather than using all of our stamina resource for battle mechanics we could concentrate on the fight and doing damage as we were meant to. These listed fixes to stamina skills and medium armor dont help everybody, and seem like a half arsed attempt at appeasing the masses. Heavy armor builds use stamina as well, and before anybody complains about it, heavy armor is for tanks and we need to dodge/block etc. more than stamina damage classes so it is needed for defense not so much for combat.

Varicite · October 2014

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

Im curious if an enrage has ever been considered for low-depleted stamina resources and another resource bar where dodge block etc would be drained from rather than using all of our stamina resource for battle mechanics we could concentrate on the fight and doing damage as we were meant to. These listed fixes to stamina skills and medium armor dont help everybody, and seem like a half arsed attempt at appeasing the masses. Heavy armor builds use stamina as well, and before anybody complains about it, heavy armor is for tanks and we need to dodge/block etc. more than stamina damage classes so it is needed for defense not so much for combat.

We don't talk about heavy armor. It's like the red-headed stepchild of the armor classes.

Heavy is what you wear when you want to look cool, but not really be good at anything.

At least they have really cheap CC breaks though!

Kypho · October 2014

Varicite wrote: »

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

Im curious if an enrage has ever been considered for low-depleted stamina resources and another resource bar where dodge block etc would be drained from rather than using all of our stamina resource for battle mechanics we could concentrate on the fight and doing damage as we were meant to. These listed fixes to stamina skills and medium armor dont help everybody, and seem like a half arsed attempt at appeasing the masses. Heavy armor builds use stamina as well, and before anybody complains about it, heavy armor is for tanks and we need to dodge/block etc. more than stamina damage classes so it is needed for defense not so much for combat.

We don't talk about heavy armor. It's like the red-headed stepchild of the armor classes.

Heavy is what you wear when you want to look cool, but not really be good at anything.

At least they have really cheap CC breaks though!

And CC break is important because every second attack is a damn stupid CC

BTW now that they nerfed spell penetration, but they added new trait what giving 5% spell penetration (lol) does not mean that light armor is far superior and nothing changed? This means magicka builds are more OP than before? Just a question.

set44ub17_ESO1 · October 2014

With changing some of the abilities morphs to be stamina based. What if the cost of defensive abilities cost could be either magica or stamina based on what the ability used is. Blocked magics spell eats magica blocked stamina attack eats stamina....

Another idea

Maybe add a sprint bar for sprinting and dodgeing
Cc breaks use magic
Blocks use stamina

What you guys think?

stumpy999 · November 2014

I like the idea of blocked magic eating magic pool, and blocked physical eating stamina.

However there is still the obvious point that Stamina is used for CC and dodge as well as stamina abilities. Where magika has no such drain. So you would also need to mitigate that.

Going a little further into the class skills, Sorc should have all magic based skills, DK all stamina based, and Thief/Temp a mix.

At the moment most of class skills are magic based, so magic is the premium

I'd also make the vamp and WW skills use health as a resource.......

tino.antoninieb17_ESO · November 2014

I play redguard stamina nb . I really dont have any problems with resources in pvp or pve. That considers using pots from time to time but for sure have less problems with resources than on my dk. I am listening resources , resources but really cant see problem at all . I am finishing my fights with plenty of resources. DPS output is decent as well and getting very close to magica builds. Ofc i wear all medium, heavy attacks are part of my rotations ,i use a lot of class spell enhancers, morphs which are boosting stamina regen, execute phase is based on magica pool ...

Rune_Relic · November 2014

stumpy999 wrote: »

I like the idea of blocked magic eating magic pool, and blocked physical eating stamina.

However there is still the obvious point that Stamina is used for CC and dodge as well as stamina abilities. Where magika has no such drain. So you would also need to mitigate that.

Going a little further into the class skills, Sorc should have all magic based skills, DK all stamina based, and Thief/Temp a mix.

At the moment most of class skills are magic based, so magic is the premium

I'd also make the vamp and WW skills use health as a resource.......

Would make much more sense than what we have at present.
If there is a 1:1...
DK = Fighter
NB/Temp = Hybrid
Sorc = Mage
...then surely there class skills should reflect their focus in the appropriate attribute...like armour does. That would mean any spellswords would have to be templars or NBs of course.

WhiskyBob · December 2014

- I would like to see CC breaks cost nerfed for PVE on CC intensive fights (city of Ash).

- Speaking of stamina skills - when will you fix ransack? It doesnt go well with Inner Beast, they constantly bug out if used together, stuff breaks loose even with 5seconds left on taunt timer.

- At least SOME of DK skills should be stamina (reflect, chains, obsidian shard)

Kypho · December 2014

Block spells with magicka, block physical with stamina. solved.

Kypho · December 2014

Where is Warlock like set for stamina?

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · December 2014

Kypho wrote: »

Where is Warlock like set for stamina?

Yup still waiting, it should be called Stamina Flood for the 5 piece.

Kypho · December 2014

And some skill what convert magicka to stamina maybe? Because magicka build can spam with lolwarlock set forever, but stamina still needed to break CC, roll, block etc......

Kypho · December 2014

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

Where is Warlock like set for stamina?

Yup still waiting, it should be called Stamina Flood for the 5 piece.

since its stamina, and stamina is used for even farting, 3 piece would be better imo. Magicka is too OP compared to stamina so 3 piece (not talking about bow here)

Venriz · December 2014

IMO stats need redesign, cuz right now magica and spell power are supperior:

magicka and spell power
- boosting both damage and healing

stamina and weapon damage
- boosting only damage and needed for ,,farting'' ( loled on this one)

My proposition:
<<<<<>>>>>
-health stays same

-stamina: boosting stamina pool, damage, roll, blocking physical damage, [breaks cc: stun, knockdown/back]

-magicka: boosting magicka pool, spell damage and healing, blocking spell damage [breaks cc: disorient, fear]

-spell power: split into two: spell damage, spell healing. Boost both to negate damage lost from taking damage from magicka

- weapon damage: just add boost from taking damage from magicka

-Critical chance: It's one stat now to not creating 3rd for healing
<<<<<>>>>>

This way magicka users will need to make choise if they want do damage or healing while opening for them a way do use weapon skill by just adding weapon damage, but still stamina users will be able to use them more often.
On the second hand stamina users will be able to use class skills just by adding spell damage.
spells like impale for NB or mage's fury for SORC.

We also getting stamina based heal in 1.6 soo stamina users will be able to heal, but in both stamina and magicka builds: healing should be scaled of spell healing stat,soo player will only chose what resource he/she using for that.

Some skills and armor passives will need to change basing on that.

miahq · December 2014

Honestly, if I go in and decide I want to make a completely magicka based build, I can do that pretty easily. I don't even have to put points into magicka, really. Stamina build? Not so much. You can do it, but mostly it involves mixing magicka based skills with stamina skills, partly because there just aren't a lot of skills for any given weapon type, but mostly because if you try and rely entirely on stamina, you'll be dead. It's not a matter of dps, but damage/total stamina used in fight. That value is still pretty high, and frankly light armor set buffs and even class Passives offer so many buffs to stamina, that a dedicated melee fighter can actually easily be out maneuvered by a mage. I realize that's a byproduct of attempts at "balance," but it really just comes across a bit frustrating.

I don't expect to be able to kill everyone who stands in my way from any distance (unless I'm using now as a second setup), but once I close that gap I'd expect my sword to do enough damage that mages in light armor know to back up, just as I'd know to block, dodge, or evade mages firing from a distance. That really doesn't happen so much.

Some of the changes being made, I can understand eyre an attempt to balance things out a bit, though some have me worried. Especially the buff stacking, because if that applies to buffs from enchants and armor sets as well, that's pretty crappy. You've just killed a lot of builds and made a ton of skills useless. If it just applies to skills, to prevent people from stacking them to crazy levels, I can at least understand. But otherwise, you're probably going to hurt most builds -- including stamina-- more than help anything.

Would everything be more balanced if any or all buffs were limited to two of each type? Who cares. Balance is pointless, you might as well start fighting windmills if you think you're going to ever stop people from finding clever combos. And those stacks on armor/enchants... actually make characters unique. Do I have an advantage if I've got 4-5 armor buffs between armor and enchants? Maybe so, but I've also sacrificed options for greater damage for survivability. That's what balance should be, it should never be, everyone's equally good and bad at everything regardless of what they chose.

EnOeZ · January 2015

I am a full stamina (well HAD TO slot in one magicka ability per bar not to have a dead resource...), full melee, full heavy armor PVP DK. I feel a need to reword this issue so that the DEVs understand the magnitude of the Stamina fail. And honestly it is an understatement. Here it is :

Currently, a caster in light armor, full magicka based have (still) MUCH MORE ANTI-CC STAMINA AVAILABLE to his character than a full stamina based one.

Isn't it counter-intuitive that my warrior archetype character feels less athletic than that running and crying diva in robe ?

I advocate also in favor of depleting magicka for magicka based CCs and Stamina for Stamina based CCs over other solutions. Everything that has been presented so far (stamina return on heavy attacks.... "excellent" (irony) for PVP where eveyone is blocking to auto-stun yourself...) to correct that monumental design error make me sadder, highlighting the fact that ZOS combat design team still completely underestimate this issue PVP-wise.

Almost one year after launch, guys in dress can tank bosses or hold several people for tens of seconds, but the ones in heavy armor cannot stand in first line as melee DPS in PVP... Working as intended ?

A single ability like talons is death or complete unusefullness for stamina melee : either you stand still and hold block permanently standing useless in AOEs and die, either you roll dodge out, loose all stamina and become useless for seconds... On the other hand, some can hold block, spam AOEs, self heals and bubbles doing crazy DPS and still have much more stamina available to CC Break or Roll if necessary.

For the melee warrior archetype in PVP, who do not rely on stealth or medium armor to flee combat after (brief) engagement, you must ZOS imho give Heavy Armor scaling increased resource management the more damage taken or we are just forever subpar to the other combat alternatives (ranged and magicka).

Other games and MMOs have chosen a "rage" system that was successfull in allowing melee DPSers in heavy armor to compete. An elegant and coherent solution, easy to implement in the Heavy Armor line.

Last, but not least, I thought I could be able to fight against another (true) melee 2Hander in Cyrodil, well after hundreds of hours of play it has just never happened. Same for (true) Sword and Border, not that ad nauseam number of clones in robe abusing (cleverly for those wanting to sacrifice their character identity) the current broken game mechanics.

Warraxx · January 2015

EnOeZ wrote: »

...Last, but not least, I thought I could be able to fight against another (true) melee 2Hander in Cyrodil, well after hundreds of hours of play it has just never happened. Same for (true) Sword and Border, not that ad nauseam number of clones in robe abusing (cleverly for those wanting to sacrifice their character identity) the current broken game mechanics.

If you're not EP i'll 1v1 ya. @Warraxx

Sylvyr · January 2015

Warraxx wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

...Last, but not least, I thought I could be able to fight against another (true) melee 2Hander in Cyrodil, well after hundreds of hours of play it has just never happened. Same for (true) Sword and Border, not that ad nauseam number of clones in robe abusing (cleverly for those wanting to sacrifice their character identity) the current broken game mechanics.

If you're not EP i'll 1v1 ya. @Warraxx

Don't do it! I've seen @Warraxx in battle and he whips out a staff and puts on a dress and shoots fire from his arse!

Warraxx · January 2015

Sylvyr wrote: »

Warraxx wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

...Last, but not least, I thought I could be able to fight against another (true) melee 2Hander in Cyrodil, well after hundreds of hours of play it has just never happened. Same for (true) Sword and Border, not that ad nauseam number of clones in robe abusing (cleverly for those wanting to sacrifice their character identity) the current broken game mechanics.

If you're not EP i'll 1v1 ya. @Warraxx

Don't do it! I've seen @Warraxx in battle and he whips out a staff and puts on a dress and shoots fire from his arse!

you make me want to level a non-ep toon to beat your ass in cyrodiil. :P

kojou · April 2015

I would like to see an active skill that converts Magicka directly into Stamina kind of like what Dragon Blood does for health on Dragon Knights.

As a Nightblade as far as I'm concerned Grim Focus/Relentless Focus could be changed into that skill. I rarely use the magic arrow thing anyway, so IMO we can do away with that and just give a chunk of stamina upon casting instead. It would be like the Nightblade version of Green Dragon Blood only then it might actually be as useful as Green Dragon Blood.

I could also see something similar added to Alliance or NPC Guild Lines skills...

Azculain · June 2015

Doenst address the core problem. Magika users can use Stamina as a free resource because they dont rely on it. Stamina users have their key resource used up by default non skill specific uses as well as the skill itself. In short what has happened is Stamina is a combination of Two stats, one universal one skill specific, all skillsets use Stamina in some way everyone runs etc. The simple and SANE solution is to separate Focus from Stamina, let stamina stay the universal energy use stat with a few utility skills here or there and move something like Focus to be the new physical skill use stat. So that fighters will have the same equal footing as mages if you will.
As it stands stam builds are in a constant must subtract X-X to do something Magika builds have X+X-X the math will never be fair no matter how much you tweak it until its actually fixed.

Equilibriator · July 2015

seems like the simple solution is to just have a seperate bar for CC break + sprint and make it so that blocking magic or physical hits drains magicka or stamina respectively.

then have armour traits or enchantments (or w/e) added to the game that boost that new bar in various ways should you choose it.