@ZOS must grant extra CPs, either now or when VR levels are removed

daemonios · January 2015

While I agree that ZOS was wrong to promise a direct XP->CP conversion (up to a cap), that is a PR mistake. We are owed nothing. Also, could a CS close this thread? Plenty of other threads discussing this issue exclusively.

onlinegamer1 · January 2015

daemonios wrote: »

While I agree that ZOS was wrong to promise a direct XP->CP conversion (up to a cap), that is a PR mistake. We are owed nothing.

That is actually false.

We pay for access to a game. That access allows us to play the game. If they delete our accounts/characters, thus removing all progression we've earned, they have taken our money under false pretenses.

Sure, they have the absolute right to change the game however they see fit, and what we pay for is merely access to that game. But, its also true that the access we pay for isn't to "a computer", its to a "game", and that game has features we pay for. If these features are changed, well fine, we can simply stop paying for future access. But if the content we've already paid for is revoked, then there is a legal problem.

So, yes, we're OWED for the removal of our VR levels.

jrgray93 · January 2015

I also agree that ZOS shouldn't be breaking promises. I just don't think we have any right to dictate what they should do. Like I said, if this system isn't enough to keep me playing, I'll vote with my wallet. I've been here since beta, having been gone for about two months at one point.

Northern_Wolfling · January 2015

daemonios wrote:

While I agree that ZOS was wrong to promise a direct XP->CP conversion (up to a cap), that is a PR mistake. We are owed nothing. Also, could a CS close this thread? Plenty of other threads discussing this issue exclusively.

I second that.

onlinegamer1 · January 2015

jrgray93 wrote: »

I also agree that ZOS shouldn't be breaking promises. I just don't think we have any right to dictate what they should do. Like I said, if this system isn't enough to keep me playing, I'll vote with my wallet. I've been here since beta, having been gone for about two months at one point.

I will concede that ultimately, you are right - ZOS could still deny those of us with VR levels extra CPs and we could all cancel our accounts.

However, I do disagree about our rights - we absolutely have the right to "dictate" (aka make a demand) what they should do. They just aren't under any obligation to listen to us.

I_killed_Vivec · January 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

tiamak wrote: »

While I agree that it is most plausible to assume that avoiding damage to the game has a very high priority at ZOS, I'd say that we must simply wait and see if taking away earned progression from players does damage the game. Will the majority of players leave? Or will it lead to a more balanced situation, e.g. in Cyrodiil, such that many players keep playing? Will the justice system and the possibilities of the champion system offer such a big incentive to keep playing that even those players that are mad about lost progression still keep playing? Or is there even some other option between granting CPs and taking away progression that we can't imagine now but that compensates for the loss of progression?

You really don't get it. Lets do a short timeline example:

1. Update 1.6 goes live, some players have 0 CPs, others 30 CPs. Also VR levels.
2. A few weeks goes by. CPs are now no longer even. Some people have many, some still have 0. New players still purchase the game and start level 1 characters.
3. Update 1.7 goes live. VR levels are removed. CPs are no where near level, and vary greatly. There are still new players buying the game making level 1 characters with 0 CPs.
4. 3 months go by. Players with lots and lots of CPs are far more powerful than players with none.

So, where is this "leveling" of the playing field? The only thing ZOS would accomplish by NOT reimbursing players for VR levels when 1.7 goes live is damaging the game, and losing revenue. There is no upside.

Slightly longer timeline:

1. Update 1.6 goes live - all vet players get 30 CP. ZOS see how players use CP, how different activities are used to gain CP and how CP passives change gameplay.

2. Update 1.7 goes live - VR levels removed, but ZOS have worked out "something" to provide progression and scaling (presumably tied in with a new approach to crafting appropriate to a world where weapons, armour, enchantments and potions are no longer tied to VR levels).

3. ZOS somehow manages the immense re-balancing act required by adding CP and removing VR levels.

4. ZOS adds justice system, dark brotherhood and Wrothgar. PC players continue to debug the game.

5. ZOS launches shiny new console game just in time for Christmas 2015

KhajitFurTrader · January 2015

What the developers do or don't do to their game is their prerogative, and theirs alone. They owe us nothing.
There's no way to please everyone at the same time.
Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

Because I vastly prefer the taste of an omelette over that of raw eggs, I am prepared to endure the eggs' complaining as a necessary, but temporary nuisance.

onlinegamer1 · January 2015

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

What the developers do or don't do to their game is their prerogative, and theirs alone. They owe us nothing.

Again, this is wrong. You can feel however you want about this game, and you can decide that ZOS owes YOU nothing.

But you have no right to speak for me or others by using the word "us". They do owe ME something, and I feel that they owe "US" something. If you feel like they don't owe "YOU" anything, that's fine, its your account. Just don't speak for the rest of "us".

BBSooner · January 2015

We aren't getting cps. Its time to deal

yreawlb16_ESO · January 2015

From the ZENIMAX MEDIA TERMS OF SERVICE that we all agreed to. Important bits in bold.

Availability of Services and Content; Game Maintenance, Patches, Updates; Termination of Services

ZeniMax does not guarantee that any Services will be available at all times, in all countries and/or geographic locations, at any given time, or that it will continue to offer any particular Services for any particular length of time. Except as prohibited by applicable law, ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content, for any reason.

ZeniMax may patch, update, or modify at any time with or without notice to You. Notwithstanding the foregoing, ZeniMax has no obligation to make available any patches, updates or modifications or correct any errors or defects in the Services. ZeniMax makes no guarantees about the persistence or availability of any user names or other personas at any time and assumes no liability for lost or deleted Account data. Except as prohibited by applicable law, You agree that ZeniMax will not be liable for any interruption of the Services, delay or failure to perform, any loss of Content (including, but not limited to, User-Generated Content and Downloadable Content), and/or Account data (including, but not limited to, Character data) resulting from any causes whatsoever. ZeniMax reserves the right to offer new Services, change and/or discontinue certain Services at any time in its sole discretion.

Except as prohibited by applicable law, ZeniMax may restrict, suspend, or terminate Your access to some or any Services at any time. Should ZeniMax make a material change to the Services, it will provide You notice within the time period specified when You joined the particular Service, or if no time period for notice of material changes was specified, then within thirty (30) days of the date such notice is either (at ZeniMax’s discretion) provided to You via email or is posted on the applicable product or ZeniMax Service or on Your “My Account” section.

TLDR; They dont "have" to do anything... ;o)

jrgray93 · January 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

What the developers do or don't do to their game is their prerogative, and theirs alone. They owe us nothing.

Again, this is wrong. You can feel however you want about this game, and you can decide that ZOS owes YOU nothing.

But you have no right to speak for me or others by using the word "us". They do owe ME something, and I feel that they owe "US" something. If you feel like they don't owe "YOU" anything, that's fine, its your account. Just don't speak for the rest of "us".

I fully support your right to be delusional, but they legally owe you nothing.

Samadhi · January 2015

yreawlb16_ESO wrote: »

From the ZENIMAX MEDIA TERMS OF SERVICE that we all agreed to. Important bits in bold.
...
TLDR; They dont "have" to do anything... ;o)

My "favourite" part of the Terms of Service is where they tell us that our only available course of action if we have any disputes with ZOS is to stop accessing the content and close our accounts:

B. Limited Remedy. YOU AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH ZENIMAX OR ITS LICENSORS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THESE TERMS OF SERVICE OR ANY SERVICE IS TO STOP USING OR ACCESSING THE SERVICE AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT.

Yet we still clicked "agree" when they slid the Terms in front of us before we were allowed to play.

onlinegamer1 · January 2015

jrgray93 wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

What the developers do or don't do to their game is their prerogative, and theirs alone. They owe us nothing.

Again, this is wrong. You can feel however you want about this game, and you can decide that ZOS owes YOU nothing.

But you have no right to speak for me or others by using the word "us". They do owe ME something, and I feel that they owe "US" something. If you feel like they don't owe "YOU" anything, that's fine, its your account. Just don't speak for the rest of "us".

I fully support your right to be delusional, but they legally owe you nothing.

Again, false. They owe me access to the game, which I am paying them for.

Razzak · January 2015

jrgray93 wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

What the developers do or don't do to their game is their prerogative, and theirs alone. They owe us nothing.

Again, this is wrong. You can feel however you want about this game, and you can decide that ZOS owes YOU nothing.

But you have no right to speak for me or others by using the word "us". They do owe ME something, and I feel that they owe "US" something. If you feel like they don't owe "YOU" anything, that's fine, its your account. Just don't speak for the rest of "us".

I fully support your right to be delusional, but they legally owe you nothing.

How about ethically? Or is that of no importance?

jrgray93 · January 2015

Ethics are important. I'm just not sure this is an ethics problem, so much as a PR problem. Like it's been said, don't like it, don't pay the sub.

Wizzo91 · January 2015

We all know that a considerable amount of the core player base will leave ESO if they do not reward their VR14 toons after 1.7.

The largest issue here is that trust in ZOS is lost. If they deliberately remove progression once, what will prevent them from doing it again in the future?

Progression is one of the main factors of MMOs. That's why this is such a big problem for so many people.

Psychobunni · January 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Again, this is wrong. You can feel however you want about this game, and you can decide that ZOS owes YOU nothing.

But you have no right to speak for me or others by using the word "us". They do owe ME something, and I feel that they owe "US" something. If you feel like they don't owe "YOU" anything, that's fine, its your account. Just don't speak for the rest of "us".

I read through all these threads since announcement that they weren't infact going to give CP based on experienced earned, I agree completely its not fair. But you are arguing against human nature and in the wrong environment.

Wrong environment because its ESO and it appeals much more to the casual gamer. Sure there are some who take the game seriously, max their toon(s) to the best advantage(s) possible and consistently run the hardest stuff because that is their thing.... but ESO has more players who simply don't take it that serious. So first is understanding the mentality of most of the player base.

Human nature. ZOS is basically planning to redistribute CP from the earned to the unearned. So its all "fair" and everyone is starting "equal". Why would the unearned speak out against it? Why would they agree its unfair and actively fight for a fair system....they are getting something they didn't earn for free, while still having more advantage in earning more over those already at the end of the line.

*I* think its a losing battle. If a few of the more hardcore players unsub due to being s*** on, ZOS has no reason to care. I'd bet between Christmas and the steam sale... they got a minimum of 3 subs walk in for every 1 that will follow thru and unsub. Granted is is all just *my opinion*, while I applaud and cheer you guys on for keeping up the battle, I simply don't see it as one to be won.

jrgray93 · January 2015

Wizzo91 wrote: »

We all know that a considerable amount of the core player base we leave ESO if they do not reward their VR14 toons after 1.7.

The largest issue here is that trust in ZOS is lost. If they deliberately remove progression once, what will prevent them from doing it again in the future?

Progression is one of the main factors of MMOs. That's why this is such a big problem for so many people.

Had the OP approached the issue with calm, calculated reasoning like this, instead of having a Dwight Shrute-esque temper tantrum, I'd probably find more common ground with him / her.

Robocles · January 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

Fact: ZOS has already stated they will not be granting extra Champion Points.

Fact: The Terms of Service allow them to do this, and we agreed to those Terms of Service when we began playing.

Lol... the "Terms of Service" cop-out.

Samadhi · January 2015

Robocles wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Fact: ZOS has already stated they will not be granting extra Champion Points.

Fact: The Terms of Service allow them to do this, and we agreed to those Terms of Service when we began playing.

Lol... the "Terms of Service" cop-out.

Don't agree to any contract you think you may regret the terms of.

dharbert · January 2015

Robocles wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Fact: ZOS has already stated they will not be granting extra Champion Points.

Fact: The Terms of Service allow them to do this, and we agreed to those Terms of Service when we began playing.

Lol... the "Terms of Service" cop-out.

@Robocles‌

......which you also agreed to, are bound by, and can't do a damn thing about except unsub.

Wizzo91 · January 2015

TBH, I'm not fully up to date with the CP topic.

From what I understand they stated that accounts with at least one VR1 character will be rewarded with 30CPs in 1.6.

Did ZOS ever state that VRs above VR1 will not be rewarded in 1.7?

If this is not the case, don't you think that ZoS is using PTS and 1.6 as a testing phase for the CS and do not know the details of 1.7 themselves?

Perhaps the toons will be compensated but ZoS does not know how yet.

Maybe all this complaining is a waste of time because they won't answer your thread to prevent another fiasco (like keeping track of XP).

Of course if they already stated that this will not be the case in 1.7, ignore my comment.

Robocles · January 2015

dharbert wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Fact: ZOS has already stated they will not be granting extra Champion Points.

Fact: The Terms of Service allow them to do this, and we agreed to those Terms of Service when we began playing.

Lol... the "Terms of Service" cop-out.

@Robocles‌

......which you also agreed to, are bound by, and can't do a damn thing about except unsub.

That doesn't make it a cop-out. The Terms allow them to run the game 2 hours a day, too. And delete your characters every week. And anything, really.

I don't like the whole "FACT:" form of making a point, but saying that the Terms let them do it doesn't change that they aren't ever going to live down the fact that they allowed obvious disinformation to continue to exist about the XP tracking for a good amount of time.

So... yeah, people are upset... and, guess what, their sub also allows them to post their discontent.

dharbert · January 2015

Wizzo91 wrote: »

TBH, I'm not fully up to date with the CP topic.

From what I understand they stated that accounts with at least one VR1 character will be rewarded with 30CPs in 1.6.

Did ZOS ever state that VRs above VR1 will not be rewarded in 1.7?

If this is not the case, don't you think that ZoS is using PTS and 1.6 as a testing phase for the CS and do not know the details of 1.7 themselves?

Perhaps the toons will be compensated but ZoS does not know how yet.

Maybe all this complaining is a waste of time because they won't answer your thread to prevent another fiasco (like keeping track of XP).

Of course if they already stated that this will not be the case in 1.7, ignore my comment.

Finally, a sensible post.

So far, for 1.6, as long as you have a single veteran ranked character, all characters on your account will receive 30 Champion Points.

Now, will they reward players in 1.7 who have multiple veteran ranked characters and have had the maxed out for quite some time? Who knows. They haven't said that they aren't.

More than likely, Zenimax is going to see how players use these 30 CP's they have given them, and then based on testing during 1.6, either leave the CP's as they are or give veteran players additional CP's as they see fit later on in 1.7.

Enodoc · January 2015

Despair9 wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Fact: ZOS has already stated they will not be granting extra Champion Points.

Fact: The Terms of Service allow them to do this, and we agreed to those Terms of Service when we began playing.

Translation: I can't refute the logic in the OP.

You claim they "must" credit is with more points simply because we have been playing longer than other players.
The Terms of Service state they are under absolutely no obligation to do so.

Can agree with the logic included in your wishful thinking, but it is still wishful thinking.

Translation: I still can't refute the logic in the OP.

Not attempting to refute the logic in the OP, personally agree that rewarding progression where it is due makes logical sense.

They why did you bother to post?

Because everything is already set in stone, and there is no hint of them ever reverting it.

Also your topic will most likely get closed, due to "other topics already made on this subject".

I wouldn't say that... we thought it was set in stone previously that we would be compensated CPs for VRs somehow based on the "we are tracking your XP" statement. Therefore nothing is set in stone until it actually appears, and they could still change their plans again and provide a lesser amount of CPs for existing XPs.

ZOS_UlyssesW · January 2015

Hello, everyone.
We understand this is a hot topic, and we continue to read your feedback. However, please understand that starting new threads on a topic already being discussed is not necessary and in fact fragments the existing discussions. As such, we are closing this thread and we encourage you to please post in an existing thread on this topic. Thank you for your understanding.