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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Experience Tracking and the Champion System implementation
Grao
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After reading and re-reading the forum for the past week I thought it might be good idea to resume the situation and clear some points. I will try my best to be impartial.
Lets start with ZoS statements:
Resume:
- Months ago one of the ESO Devs, Maria Aliprando released an explanation of the Champion System and promised all veteran experience was being tracked and would be converted into champion points upon implementation of the system.
- After the last ESO Live, Gina Bruno released an apology stating that ZoS would not be following through with their promise. Instead we were told the Champion System would be released and every account that had a Veteran Character would be gifted 30 Champion Points.
Why have this upset so many?
Our reasoning is very straight forward. We were promised that progression would be respected upon the implementation of the new system and right now that doesn't seem likely.
ZoS reasons
I will say that at first I didn't understood ZoS reasons and their concerns, now I think I finally do (though I still believe they are at fault for creating the problem in the first place). Because the Champion System is being released in Phases, update 1.6 has 2 simultaneous progressions, the veteran system progression and the champion system! That is the main problem and it is ZoS fault because they chose to implement the system in little broken pieces.
Having two simultaneous progressions affecting each character would double the distance between ranks, so while that might not affect PvE as much, it would surely affect PvP. VRank1s would remain the same, but VRank14s would become twice as powerful as they were in Update 1.5.
ZoS Solution and Why it is causing more problems
Instead of awarding Champion Points according to the gathered Veteran Rank Experience in each account, ZoS decided to give 30 Champion Points to every account with one or more Veteran Characters. Why does that causes confusion and problems?
- First of all, those of us with more then 7.5 Million Vet Exp gathered (the equivalent to 30 CPs) in our accounts are afraid our progression will not be translated to the champion system when the Veteran System is completely removed (we assume that will happen on update 1.7).
- Second, I at least don't understand why are we being given these 30 champion points. The only reason I can see for that is, ZoS needs us to test the system and they came up with a value they believe enough to perform tests with. Why is that a problem? It inserts an exception to a system that hasn't even been fully implemented, those 30 points are not a rule so only a limited number of players will get those points, they are not equivalent to experience earned. New players will never have access to those points. Players that don't have a veteran ranked character when 1.6 comes to live will never get those points either.
What I think ZoS should do
Since ZoS doesn't think the PTS is enough to run stress and balance tests for the new system (which is definitely true), what I think they could do differently.
- Reduce the amount of Champion Points from 30 to 15 per character and make it a rule. What do I mean by that? Well, it is really simple. Instead of a few players gaining 30 CPs when the system comes to live, every player would get 15 points for everyone of their characters who defeated Molag Bal. That would neatly tie up to the story of the game and give your character a spike of power as he or she regains its soul. Only from that point on, Experience for the Champion system would be tracked, including after the removal of the Veteran System.
Now, how to work around the characters already past that point when1.6 comes out. Well, my solution isn't perfect and I'd gladly take suggestion on how to improve it, but I thought those of us VR1 or above would start with those 15 points (x the number of veteran characters in your account) and none of those characters would generate more Champion Points until they reached vr14.
I know that is an unpleasant prospect, but keep on reading!
No, that wouldn't mean only Vr14 characters would further grow in strength because you'd be leveling within the Veteran System, gaining Attribute Points and Gear. When the Veteran System is removed, all accounts would gain the Experience they gathered between Vr1 and Vr14 converted to Champion Points, so if you reach Vr14 you will start generating CPs for your account and once 1.7 comes to live you will get (together with ALL other Vr14s) 52 extra CPs (per Vr14 character). And those that don't manage to reach Vr14, well they'd be compensated according to the experience they had gathered within the Veteran Levels - That is easy for ZoS to keep track of!
I know there is some potential to abuse, but all systems have loopholes. Would there be people leveling Alts just to defeat Molag Bal and get those extra 15 Cps? Definitely, but we can only have 8 characters per account so the most points one could gather this way is 120. 120 out of 3600 points, is it me, or that doesn't seem too much?
Another problem is that this would still make the Vr14s more powerful, but it would be a far more natural progression, as if they were simply gaining more levels beyond Vr14, which is not unfair as the Vr14s are still playing the game, gaining experience so it makes perfect sense for their character to have some growth independent of gear.
===============================================================
Before complaining and saying I made this plans favoring only the VR14s, keep in mind by accepting this, we'd be giving up all the experience we gathered after Vr14 for the past several months. For some of us that amounts to a lot of Champion Points, a lot of time in the game.
We are not unreasonable, we just feel a middle ground between what ZoS proposed and what they promised us at first is needed to settle this discussion once and for all.
We do understand the problem two progressions implemented simultaneously can create and we understand ZoS need to test this system before fully implementing it. We can only hope ZoS and the rest of the player base are just as understanding.
===============================================================
Thank you.
Lets start with ZoS statements:
ZOS_MariaAliprando wrote: »Greetings! I am Maria Aliprando, Gameplay Designer on the Champion System.
We are hard at work on it and I’m here to answer a few of your questions. Most of these questions were also asked during our Guild Round Table in the last two days.
How will the current system change when the Champion System gets introduced?
The Champion System will introduce new past lvl 50 progression for your account where previously there was only an increase in Veteran Ranks and Attributes. The Champion System allows you spend points in the constellations to earn powerful passives such as giving your bash a chance to snare targets, reduce the amount of damage you take from flames or leech health on critical strikes.
Should players that are VR1+ still work towards VR12 or should they just wait until the new changes.
Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14. When the Champion System comes out we will reward you points right away based on the amount of XP you have earned up to a cap. In general, most people won’t reach the cap and we do not know what that cap is yet. We're still working out that value and making sure to take a look at the XP you all are earning.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
- The system needs to be integrated in phases, leaving the Veteran Ranks in place for phase 3.
Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.- The system has to account for relative power values of the game.
We had to start narrowing down on the variables for our content in the game. Because we are changing many of the abilities and base factors in the gameplay, we needed to start with less of a variance in player power to achieve a good introduction of the system. Or more simply, the more points we give out now, the harder it is to find a good place between various balance points: PvP, overland content, Veteran Content, Craglorn, Dungeons, Trials, etc…- The system shouldn’t separate players more.
This is pretty self-explanatory, and is related to the first point. While the system is meant to have built in safeguards against players pulling away from each other too dramatically – those systems aren’t in currently. A 1-to-1 XP conversion to Champion XP was too dramatic.
Also, when phase 3 of the Champion System goes live with Update 6, all accounts that have at least one Veteran Rank character on them will automatically receive 30 Champion Points. These 30 Champion Points, though applied to your account, are distributed in full to each individual character on your account, just as Champion Points you earn are. So, if you have 5 characters, at least one of which is Veteran Rank 1 or higher, all five of those characters will have 30 CP to spend. You will not be awarded more Champion Points for having five Veteran Characters versus just one. You will also be able to begin earning Champion Points on any Veteran Rank character from that point forward.
We feel confident that our current solution is better for the enjoyment of the game overall than our originally announced design. This comes from weeks of testing the system. While iterating on solutions and changing the design is a normal and necessary part of the game making process, we definitely understand how changes to a system like this can be frustrating and seem to come from nowhere.
That said, we’re going to continue to be open about our plans and designs for the future of ESO. While a change in development like this can be frustrating, it isn’t a reason for us to not communicate. We never intend to mislead, but sometimes even our best ideas just don’t work out once they get into the game. We feel the Champion System is still going to be a fun way for you to keep customizing your character to suit your tastes and specializing in ways that make you unique. We’re looking forward to you giving it a trial run on the PTS, and sending us your feedback.
Resume:
- Months ago one of the ESO Devs, Maria Aliprando released an explanation of the Champion System and promised all veteran experience was being tracked and would be converted into champion points upon implementation of the system.
- After the last ESO Live, Gina Bruno released an apology stating that ZoS would not be following through with their promise. Instead we were told the Champion System would be released and every account that had a Veteran Character would be gifted 30 Champion Points.
Why have this upset so many?
Our reasoning is very straight forward. We were promised that progression would be respected upon the implementation of the new system and right now that doesn't seem likely.
ZoS reasons
I will say that at first I didn't understood ZoS reasons and their concerns, now I think I finally do (though I still believe they are at fault for creating the problem in the first place). Because the Champion System is being released in Phases, update 1.6 has 2 simultaneous progressions, the veteran system progression and the champion system! That is the main problem and it is ZoS fault because they chose to implement the system in little broken pieces.
Having two simultaneous progressions affecting each character would double the distance between ranks, so while that might not affect PvE as much, it would surely affect PvP. VRank1s would remain the same, but VRank14s would become twice as powerful as they were in Update 1.5.
ZoS Solution and Why it is causing more problems
Instead of awarding Champion Points according to the gathered Veteran Rank Experience in each account, ZoS decided to give 30 Champion Points to every account with one or more Veteran Characters. Why does that causes confusion and problems?
- First of all, those of us with more then 7.5 Million Vet Exp gathered (the equivalent to 30 CPs) in our accounts are afraid our progression will not be translated to the champion system when the Veteran System is completely removed (we assume that will happen on update 1.7).
- Second, I at least don't understand why are we being given these 30 champion points. The only reason I can see for that is, ZoS needs us to test the system and they came up with a value they believe enough to perform tests with. Why is that a problem? It inserts an exception to a system that hasn't even been fully implemented, those 30 points are not a rule so only a limited number of players will get those points, they are not equivalent to experience earned. New players will never have access to those points. Players that don't have a veteran ranked character when 1.6 comes to live will never get those points either.
What I think ZoS should do
Since ZoS doesn't think the PTS is enough to run stress and balance tests for the new system (which is definitely true), what I think they could do differently.
- Reduce the amount of Champion Points from 30 to 15 per character and make it a rule. What do I mean by that? Well, it is really simple. Instead of a few players gaining 30 CPs when the system comes to live, every player would get 15 points for everyone of their characters who defeated Molag Bal. That would neatly tie up to the story of the game and give your character a spike of power as he or she regains its soul. Only from that point on, Experience for the Champion system would be tracked, including after the removal of the Veteran System.
Now, how to work around the characters already past that point when1.6 comes out. Well, my solution isn't perfect and I'd gladly take suggestion on how to improve it, but I thought those of us VR1 or above would start with those 15 points (x the number of veteran characters in your account) and none of those characters would generate more Champion Points until they reached vr14.
I know that is an unpleasant prospect, but keep on reading!
No, that wouldn't mean only Vr14 characters would further grow in strength because you'd be leveling within the Veteran System, gaining Attribute Points and Gear. When the Veteran System is removed, all accounts would gain the Experience they gathered between Vr1 and Vr14 converted to Champion Points, so if you reach Vr14 you will start generating CPs for your account and once 1.7 comes to live you will get (together with ALL other Vr14s) 52 extra CPs (per Vr14 character). And those that don't manage to reach Vr14, well they'd be compensated according to the experience they had gathered within the Veteran Levels - That is easy for ZoS to keep track of!
I know there is some potential to abuse, but all systems have loopholes. Would there be people leveling Alts just to defeat Molag Bal and get those extra 15 Cps? Definitely, but we can only have 8 characters per account so the most points one could gather this way is 120. 120 out of 3600 points, is it me, or that doesn't seem too much?
Another problem is that this would still make the Vr14s more powerful, but it would be a far more natural progression, as if they were simply gaining more levels beyond Vr14, which is not unfair as the Vr14s are still playing the game, gaining experience so it makes perfect sense for their character to have some growth independent of gear.
===============================================================
Before complaining and saying I made this plans favoring only the VR14s, keep in mind by accepting this, we'd be giving up all the experience we gathered after Vr14 for the past several months. For some of us that amounts to a lot of Champion Points, a lot of time in the game.
We are not unreasonable, we just feel a middle ground between what ZoS proposed and what they promised us at first is needed to settle this discussion once and for all.
We do understand the problem two progressions implemented simultaneously can create and we understand ZoS need to test this system before fully implementing it. We can only hope ZoS and the rest of the player base are just as understanding.
===============================================================
Thank you.
9
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HxC✭✭✭You're wasting your time, you're productivty is decreasing.
Free Advice to improve your work.
Go level some alts like all your coworker.
Ps: ZOS will close this thread soon."You call these baubles, well, it is with baubles that men are led… Do you think that you would be able to make men fight by reasoning? Never. That is good only for the scholar in his study. The soldier needs glory, distinctions, rewards." (Napoleon Bonaparte)6 -
Leeric✭✭✭✭Have they decided what they are going to do about completed quests? For example if someone does all the quests, and only receives 30 champion points, hasn't ZOS effectively made that character less powerful, while others who have quests left can now do them to gain champion points.
So the only other option would be grinding or playing an alt.2 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Have they decided what they are going to do about completed quests? For example if someone does all the quests, and only receives 30 champion points, hasn't ZOS effectively made that character less powerful, while others who have quests left can now do them to gain champion points.
So the only other option would be grinding or playing an alt.
Since ZoS crew has been mostly gone for the past few days it is hard to know what decisions have or have not been made. The last position we heard of was Gina's post.0 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lets hope they rethink their strategy. But to be honest, i dont think they will do.2 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're wasting your time, you're productivty is decreasing.
Free Advice to improve your work.
Go level some alts like all your coworker.
Ps: ZOS will close this thread soon.
Maybe they will close it, maybe they wont. I felt a post centering all the information as plainly as possible would be useful. And of course I think my take on the subject is fair minded enough. We will see what happens, ZoS should be back to business tomorrow or soon.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭xMovingTarget wrote: »Lets hope they rethink their strategy. But to be honest, i dont think they will do.
Well, they usually do hear us out to a certain extent, so hopefully, if they can't adjust their plans immediately, they will at least explain their reasons more openly and set up some incoming fix for this problem. I thought my idea was ok and not terribly complex to implement, but I maybe wrong. Who knows...0 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xMovingTarget wrote: »Lets hope they rethink their strategy. But to be honest, i dont think they will do.
Well, they usually do hear us out to a certain extent, so hopefully, if they can't adjust their plans immediately, they will at least explain their reasons more openly and set up some incoming fix for this problem. I thought my idea was ok and not terribly complex to implement, but I maybe wrong. Who knows...
I didnt honestly agree to all your points. But its far better then ZoS "eat or die" attempt.
It seems like the more VR14 chars you have, the more you get out. Shouldnt be the case. If someone just played one or two VR14 but also very regularly, in your system they would also get less. It shouldnt be dependent on how much characters one has. More on how much playtime, xp gained overall. Then it wouldnt matter if 1 or 8 VR
I only play 2 VR14. Its enough for me. But i play em very actively. But i think you get the point.
Edited by xMovingTarget on January 2, 2015 1:35AM0 -
Black_Wolf88✭✭✭@OP, although not perfect, your ideas sounds a lot better than how zenimax have pictured the current implementation of 1.6.
if not in 1.6 but then maybe for 1.7 I do hope they read all the posts regarding champoon points and make appropriate changes that would not only favor those who have done the least in game over those that have done the most as its now."The key to immportality is first living a life worth remembering." -Bruce Lee0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭xMovingTarget wrote: »xMovingTarget wrote: »Lets hope they rethink their strategy. But to be honest, i dont think they will do.
Well, they usually do hear us out to a certain extent, so hopefully, if they can't adjust their plans immediately, they will at least explain their reasons more openly and set up some incoming fix for this problem. I thought my idea was ok and not terribly complex to implement, but I maybe wrong. Who knows...
I didnt honestly agree to all your points. But its far better then ZoS "eat or die" attempt.
Well, I did ask for suggestions. I am willing to listen and edit the main post as much as needed.0 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xMovingTarget wrote: »xMovingTarget wrote: »Lets hope they rethink their strategy. But to be honest, i dont think they will do.
Well, they usually do hear us out to a certain extent, so hopefully, if they can't adjust their plans immediately, they will at least explain their reasons more openly and set up some incoming fix for this problem. I thought my idea was ok and not terribly complex to implement, but I maybe wrong. Who knows...
I didnt honestly agree to all your points. But its far better then ZoS "eat or die" attempt.
Well, I did ask for suggestions. I am willing to listen and edit the main post as much as needed.
i put some into the post you quoted me from 0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Black_Wolf88 wrote: »@OP, although not perfect, your ideas sounds a lot better than how zenimax have pictured the current implementation of 1.6.
if not in 1.6 but then maybe for 1.7 I do hope they read all the posts regarding champoon points and make appropriate changes that would not only favor those who have done the least in game over those that have done the most as its now.
Oh, I am aware my ideas have flaws here and there, but it was what I came up with after reading ZoS posts and those of the community.
As for Zos only implementing changes on 1.7, it will be complicated. If they go through with update 1.6 as they've announced, not only will they be creating 30 champion points only a few players will ever get, they will also set them selves to have serious problems with 1.7.
Characters leveling within the Vr System can not be allowed to generate champion points. If they are allowed, come 1.7, or there will be no compensation for the removal of the Vranks (which will lead to another *** storm on the forums) or it will likely lead to players gaining more CPs then they should. If ZoS simply give the CPs for the Exp accumulated during Vranks, those that leveled with both Veteran and Champion system together, will get twice the CPs.
ZoS really needs to fix their plans now cause fixing it later will be much harder.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭xMovingTarget wrote: »xMovingTarget wrote: »xMovingTarget wrote: »Lets hope they rethink their strategy. But to be honest, i dont think they will do.
Well, they usually do hear us out to a certain extent, so hopefully, if they can't adjust their plans immediately, they will at least explain their reasons more openly and set up some incoming fix for this problem. I thought my idea was ok and not terribly complex to implement, but I maybe wrong. Who knows...
I didnt honestly agree to all your points. But its far better then ZoS "eat or die" attempt.
Well, I did ask for suggestions. I am willing to listen and edit the main post as much as needed.
i put some into the post you quoted me from
I agree with you and I am actually in that case. I only have one character right now, my vr14 sorcerer. Unfortunately this is a flaw of the Champion System that I don't see being fixed.
ZoS decided long ago that Champion Points would be account wide, that plus Enlightenment means those with multiple characters will always generate CPs faster then those with one character. As it is, on 1.6, all you need is 8 vr1s though, not vr14s and we both know how easy it is to level characters to vr1.Edited by Grao on January 2, 2015 1:53AM0 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xMovingTarget wrote: »xMovingTarget wrote: »xMovingTarget wrote: »Lets hope they rethink their strategy. But to be honest, i dont think they will do.
Well, they usually do hear us out to a certain extent, so hopefully, if they can't adjust their plans immediately, they will at least explain their reasons more openly and set up some incoming fix for this problem. I thought my idea was ok and not terribly complex to implement, but I maybe wrong. Who knows...
I didnt honestly agree to all your points. But its far better then ZoS "eat or die" attempt.
Well, I did ask for suggestions. I am willing to listen and edit the main post as much as needed.
i put some into the post you quoted me from
I agree with you and I am actually in that case. I only have one character right now, my vr14 sorcerer. Unfortunately this is a flaw of the Champion System that I don't see being fixed.
ZoS decided long ago that Champion Points would be account wide, that plus Enlightenment means those with multiple characters will always generate CPs faster then those with one character. As it is, on 1.6, all you needs is 8 vr1s though, not vr14s and we both know how easy it is to level characters to vr1.
As i understood, you only gain enlightement by doing nothing or not gaining experience on a veteran character. So in fact, in wouldnt matter
So you have char 1 and char 2. Both are VR14 right. You play char 1 for a bit, then you log to char 2 for some dungeons. You wont get enlightenment on char 2 because you havnt played it.
You would if instead playing char 1 you would have played char 3 which is no veteran character or below lvl 50.0 -
i am willing to forgive ZOS "XP EARNED" fiasco. given the increase in the value of the character points I understand that awarding too many points can break the system. that being said 30 character points to all accounts with a vet rank character is completely unacceptable. if ZOS considers a v14 character worthy of 30 points, im ok with that, but if that's the case, then a brand new vet1 is only worth 2 points. rolling us all back to 50 and giving us all 30 points is complete crap and a spit in the face, not to mention a bold faced LIE based on their previous statements. they need to adjust their plan, and fix the problem, its not like they have a problem going back on their word, atleast do it for a good reason.
ive defended ZOS on many occasions in the last year, i dont nerdrage, but penalizing those who play your game the hardest doesnt make much sense. the serious gamers may not be the bulk of the subscriptions, but when they leave, the casuals always follow.Edited by badmojo0777b14_ESO on January 2, 2015 2:00AM7 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭badmojo0777b14_ESO wrote: »i am willing to forgive ZOS "XP EARNED" fiasco. given the increase in the value of the character points I understand that awarding too many points can break the system. that being said 30 character points to all accounts with a vet rank character is completely unacceptable. if ZOS considers a v14 character worthy of 30 points, im ok with that, but if that's the case, then a brand new vet1 is only worth 2 points. rolling us all back to 50 and giving us all 30 points is complete crap and a spit in the face, not to mention a bold faced LIE based on their previous statements. they need to adjust their plan, and fix the problem, its not like they have a problem going back on their word, atleast do it for a good reason.
the serious gamers may not be the bulk of the subscriptions, but when they leave, the casuals always follow.
I saw this post in another thread but i cant agree more 0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭badmojo0777b14_ESO wrote: »i am willing to forgive ZOS "XP EARNED" fiasco. given the increase in the value of the character points I understand that awarding too many points can break the system. that being said 30 character points to all accounts with a vet rank character is completely unacceptable. if ZOS considers a v14 character worthy of 30 points, im ok with that, but if that's the case, then a brand new vet1 is only worth 2 points. rolling us all back to 50 and giving us all 30 points is complete crap and a spit in the face, not to mention a bold faced LIE based on their previous statements. they need to adjust their plan, and fix the problem, its not like they have a problem going back on their word, atleast do it for a good reason.
the serious gamers may not be the bulk of the subscriptions, but when they leave, the casuals always follow.
First, calm down a bit.
I am trying to keep this post as friendly, or at least constructive, as possible.
Now, as to what you said. I think ZoS gave 30 points to everyone because they need people testing the system and there isn't that much interest in the PTS once new content is released live. Also, there aren't enough people on the PST to stress test a system.
So they need more players to have a certain amount of points and they can't have vr14s having both the power gained from the veteran progression and from the champion system at the same time. Those two systems are meant to replace each other, not to coexist. The power spike between ranks would too great and that would be specially evident in PvP. It would cause problems.
And that means ZoS has to give points out to have the system tested, but they can't give all the points we've earned through our veteran characters because the veteran system is still present. It is complicated situation to balance. We will have to trust them to give us additional compensation upon the release of 1.7, when the veteran system, its additional Attribute points, etc are all removed.Edited by Grao on January 2, 2015 2:09AM0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ignore this post
Meant to edit my previous entry and instead, I created a new one. >.> Edited by Grao on January 2, 2015 2:20AM0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭xMovingTarget wrote: »xMovingTarget wrote: »xMovingTarget wrote: »xMovingTarget wrote: »Lets hope they rethink their strategy. But to be honest, i dont think they will do.
Well, they usually do hear us out to a certain extent, so hopefully, if they can't adjust their plans immediately, they will at least explain their reasons more openly and set up some incoming fix for this problem. I thought my idea was ok and not terribly complex to implement, but I maybe wrong. Who knows...
I didnt honestly agree to all your points. But its far better then ZoS "eat or die" attempt.
Well, I did ask for suggestions. I am willing to listen and edit the main post as much as needed.
i put some into the post you quoted me from
I agree with you and I am actually in that case. I only have one character right now, my vr14 sorcerer. Unfortunately this is a flaw of the Champion System that I don't see being fixed.
ZoS decided long ago that Champion Points would be account wide, that plus Enlightenment means those with multiple characters will always generate CPs faster then those with one character. As it is, on 1.6, all you needs is 8 vr1s though, not vr14s and we both know how easy it is to level characters to vr1.
As i understood, you only gain enlightement by doing nothing or not gaining experience on a veteran character. So in fact, in wouldnt matter
So you have char 1 and char 2. Both are VR14 right. You play char 1 for a bit, then you log to char 2 for some dungeons. You wont get enlightenment on char 2 because you havnt played it.
You would if instead playing char 1 you would have played char 3 which is no veteran character or below lvl 50.
*goes read on Enlightenment and comes back*
Seems you are right, but even without Enlightenment, because CPs are account wide and not character bound, it will always be easier to make champion points if you have multiple characters. I don't think that is limited to Vr14s even on my plan, actually, I think vr14s will have a harder time generating CPs. Most of us have no more quests to run and those that still have them chose to level by grinding; they won't go questing now.Edited by Grao on January 2, 2015 2:19AM0 -
jaibierwb17_ESO✭✭✭This is the best, well thought out solution I have seen. ZOS should give you a job.1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭jaibierwb17_ESO wrote: »This is the best, well thought out solution I have seen. ZOS should give you a job.
Thanks! Truthfully, I'd love working for ZoS or working with games in general. I've been around MMOs for quite sometime.0 -
Anex✭✭✭I'm most worried about the fact that I worked on Master adventurer! I'm less than 30 quests away from that and 10 away from Hero of Tamriel. What then? I've done all the quests and I gotta go BACK and re-do them with a new VR1 character in order to give me the max potential? (No talk of quests being reset, so I assume that is the only way to complete the quests)
I LOVE my primary character, that is why I play her so much. I haven't found a character I love as much as my assassin/dual wield nightblade!
Basically those of us who stayed loyal and kept playing in the interim are getting robbed. Would have been better off to cancel the account and come back when this was implemented.
It's not even about being elitist (which is what I mistook this whole thing for in the first place), ie: "I'm a higher level, I don't want to be put on equal footing with new characters". It is "MY CHARACTER IS RUINED BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DO THE QUESTS ANYMORE!".
There's a difference and a ruined character that can't progress anymore is unacceptable.
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GunemCleric✭✭✭I see a lot of "most of us" about this topic. Perhaps you missed a few point. There are ~600 quests (and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements) that are being wiped from our history for this change.
3600 points implies that they expect there to be 450 CP achievable per character, it is expected to be only efficient via quests, but some like me have done the quests, ~600 quests (and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements) , for at least one character, which means I lose a large portion of the 450 CP, i.e. I can never reasonably recover those 450 for that character, ever. How does that sound to you. ZOS does not care, their answer is to do the daily quests, which is NOT a reasonable solution, i.e. they do not care at all and just want to get rid of as many long-time players as possible.
The only reasonable solution...
is to go ahead and give the 30 CP now (since we are beta testing for them again). When 1.7 comes out and vet ranks are dropped there should be a clear conversion of quests. They may try to say they do not know XP, but I can tell what quest I did in my achievements, which means they can too and they can calculate the XP received for that quest (and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements), i.e we can be rewarded for the quests we will never be able to do again and not be screwed out of our hard work.
Otherwise...
ZOS should just reset everyone to zero and blame it on Malog Bal. That would make far more acceptable than listening to ZOS happily tell us they do not care about all of us that have worked hard on our characters and stayed in the game despite the innumerable mistakes and problems that we encounter. This option will mean that ESO loses the same amount of players.
No it is not acceptable to throw away all of my play time, it is not ok to reduce my or any player back to zero, just because ZOS does not have any integrity or understanding of game progressions and awards. I do not know about everyone else but I have 2400+ hours in this game and 2 v14s, and I have done 1100 quests for one char alone. It is not acceptable to take away all we accomplished for any reason.
You are for some reason under the illusion that you can find a middle ground. Those of us who actually are competitive really like to succeed and work hard for earned advantages. We do not care about noobs, because we do not fight/hunt/kill noobs, we are looking for other competitive players. In fact myself and many others i know actively avoid killing players under a certain level or relative level because it is not competitive (any v14 who actively hunts say 1-40ish players will receive my personal attention each every time i see or hear of them)
NO ONE has asked, reasonably speaking, for players to be unbalanced. I really do not care what we get for CP on 1.6, but screwing players out of their earned play time and not providing the conversion in 1.7 is unacceptable. Most of the people i know do not want to do quests EVER again, they suck worse after the first time, the second time is terrible, doing quests the third time is torture it makes Destiny seem fun (Destiny is probably the most boring FPS on earth, it is not an MMO, yet somehow got 30% of the votes, probably those who did ESO quests more than once as boring sucks less than torture).
To equate a v14 with a v1 is insulting. to equate a 5-minute old v1 to someone with 5 v14s and probably 3000+ hours (like one of the guys posting in the other thread) is beyond insulting.
If providing a more appropriate conversion (once again it should not be called an award as we have *EARNED* our "separation") is somehow going to unbalance the game, then it will eventually unbalance anyway, and then what? I guess it will not matter because this subject is so contentious that I suspect the greatest mass exodus yet.
When, in a couple months, player separation comes up with QQ threads then all the people who stick through this and defend ZOS and try to find some common ground (maybe try a protest, or some equally inane or useless "talk") will be the ones who get re-balanced, but it will not matter as you will have set the precedent of being happy with ZOS doing as they wish and lying.
To make it worse, now PvP players who did all of the quests on their main are now going to be forced to re-roll and level another character just to be competitive, and you, OP, think that is ok, that some middle ground can be achieved?
--
One more thing. Will all guilds who "talk with ZOS" please shut up. You are not actually doing anything. If you are actually talking to them then you do not represent any player I know especially if you supported this lie and subsequent insult. On the other hand, if you did not support this crap, then you are clearly not having an effect. So stop the name-dropping, pretentious crap and actually try to help the game and players, assuming that is your goal, start with posting to the forums and support player issues. ZOS does not have community reps like modern, mature MMOs otherwise they would have someone on the forums who spoke with players as opposed to to them.Gunerm Cleric ~ Dragon Knight, Tank ~ vr14Cruleg Nimec ~ Dragon Knight, DPS ~ vr14Gunem Cleric ~ Templar, Heals ~ vr3Cleric Gunem ~ Sorcerer, TBD ~ vr1Daggerfall Covenant (only) ~ NAGuts n Glory & Guts n Glory EOC ~ Guildmaster ~ GnG ~ MMO Dark GuildDaggerfall Cosa Nostra ~ Founder ~ DCN ~ DC guild leaders only (no cross faction PvP guilds)3 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I just feel sorry for all of those who completed all the games content due to an unkept promise.
Now the only option they have is to go level a new character to VR1 or grind the hell out of Craglorn/dalies/PVP.
Fresh VR1 characters will probably end up with more CP in casual gameplay than anyone playing end game, simply because end game doesn't offer the EXP that two factions worth of quests do.
The above is assuming no Craglorn EXP grinds.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
GunemCleric✭✭✭jaibierwb17_ESO wrote: »This is the best, well thought out solution I have seen. ZOS should give you a job.
Thanks! Truthfully, I'd love working for ZoS or working with games in general. I've been around MMOs for quite sometime.
I suggest you go work for a mature game publisher first. Based on the mistakes being made in everything from progression to community representation and communication you may want more experience in better and appropriate ways to handle these issues before joining a publisher that is still working on its first game.
They (ZOS) have a chance to take a good game, which is roughly based on an extremely mature universe, and make a great game. Unfortunately, it becomes less certain each and every time they make serious errors of judgement, such as the subject of this and many threads.
Also go pick up a couple books on game psychology, game theory, reward systems. There are many articles via ACM too, for example
Chen, Vivian Hsueh-hua, Henry Been-Lirn Duh, and Hong Renyi. "The changing dynamic of social interaction in World of Warcraft: the impacts of game feature change." Proceedings of the 2008 International Conference on Advances in Computer Entertainment Technology. ACM, 2008.Edited by GunemCleric on January 2, 2015 11:11AMGunerm Cleric ~ Dragon Knight, Tank ~ vr14Cruleg Nimec ~ Dragon Knight, DPS ~ vr14Gunem Cleric ~ Templar, Heals ~ vr3Cleric Gunem ~ Sorcerer, TBD ~ vr1Daggerfall Covenant (only) ~ NAGuts n Glory & Guts n Glory EOC ~ Guildmaster ~ GnG ~ MMO Dark GuildDaggerfall Cosa Nostra ~ Founder ~ DCN ~ DC guild leaders only (no cross faction PvP guilds)1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm most worried about the fact that I worked on Master adventurer! I'm less than 30 quests away from that and 10 away from Hero of Tamriel. What then? I've done all the quests and I gotta go BACK and re-do them with a new VR1 character in order to give me the max potential? (No talk of quests being reset, so I assume that is the only way to complete the quests)
I LOVE my primary character, that is why I play her so much. I haven't found a character I love as much as my assassin/dual wield nightblade!
Basically those of us who stayed loyal and kept playing in the interim are getting robbed. Would have been better off to cancel the account and come back when this was implemented.
It's not even about being elitist (which is what I mistook this whole thing for in the first place), ie: "I'm a higher level, I don't want to be put on equal footing with new characters". It is "MY CHARACTER IS RUINED BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DO THE QUESTS ANYMORE!".
There's a difference and a ruined character that can't progress anymore is unacceptable.
Well, that is a whole different problem. I've also completed all the quests in the game on my main, so I have very little content to work on that character now. That has nothing to do with the Champion System.
Unfortunately, because ESO is a new game it doesn't have as much playable content as a titan like WoW. New playable content will be released though, likely with 1.7. Until then we will all keep doing our raids, our Undaunted Dailies, maybe leveling the passives to the Justice system, working to figure our how our classes will work with the many changes coming on 1.6.
I know I will be leveling an Alt soon... Probably an over powered DK, but I will be doing it through grinding, completing only the main quest line. Doing all the same quests over and over would be boring too boring!
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Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭GunemCleric wrote: »I see a lot of "most of us" about this topic. Perhaps you missed a few point. There are ~600 quests (and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements) that are being wiped from our history for this change.
3600 points implies that they expect there to be 450 CP achievable per character, it is expected to be only efficient via quests, but some like me have done the quests, ~600 quests (and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements) , for at least one character, which means I lose a large portion of the 450 CP, i.e. I can never reasonably recover those 450 for that character, ever. How does that sound to you. ZOS does not care, their answer is to do the daily quests, which is NOT a reasonable solution, i.e. they do not care at all and just want to get rid of as many long-time players as possible.
The only reasonable solution...
is to go ahead and give the 30 CP now (since we are beta testing for them again). When 1.7 comes out and vet ranks are dropped there should be a clear conversion of quests. They may try to say they do not know XP, but I can tell what quest I did in my achievements, which means they can too and they can calculate the XP received for that quest (and the dolmens, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, exploration, achievements), i.e we can be rewarded for the quests we will never be able to do again and not be screwed out of our hard work.
Otherwise...
ZOS should just reset everyone to zero and blame it on Malog Bal. That would make far more acceptable than listening to ZOS happily tell us they do not care about all of us that have worked hard on our characters and stayed in the game despite the innumerable mistakes and problems that we encounter. This option will mean that ESO loses the same amount of players.
No it is not acceptable to throw away all of my play time, it is not ok to reduce my or any player back to zero, just because ZOS does not have any integrity or understanding of game progressions and awards. I do not know about everyone else but I have 2400+ hours in this game and 2 v14s, and I have done 1100 quests for one char alone. It is not acceptable to take away all we accomplished for any reason.
You are for some reason under the illusion that you can find a middle ground. Those of us who actually are competitive really like to succeed and work hard for earned advantages. We do not care about noobs, because we do not fight/hunt/kill noobs, we are looking for other competitive players. In fact myself and many others i know actively avoid killing players under a certain level or relative level because it is not competitive (any v14 who actively hunts say 1-40ish players will receive my personal attention each every time i see or hear of them)
NO ONE has asked, reasonably speaking, for players to be unbalanced. I really do not care what we get for CP on 1.6, but screwing players out of their earned play time and not providing the conversion in 1.7 is unacceptable. Most of the people i know do not want to do quests EVER again, they suck worse after the first time, the second time is terrible, doing quests the third time is torture it makes Destiny seem fun (Destiny is probably the most boring FPS on earth, it is not an MMO, yet somehow got 30% of the votes, probably those who did ESO quests more than once as boring sucks less than torture).
To equate a v14 with a v1 is insulting. to equate a 5-minute old v1 to someone with 5 v14s and probably 3000+ hours (like one of the guys posting in the other thread) is beyond insulting.
If providing a more appropriate conversion (once again it should not be called an award as we have *EARNED* our "separation") is somehow going to unbalance the game, then it will eventually unbalance anyway, and then what? I guess it will not matter because this subject is so contentious that I suspect the greatest mass exodus yet.
When, in a couple months, player separation comes up with QQ threads then all the people who stick through this and defend ZOS and try to find some common ground (maybe try a protest, or some equally inane or useless "talk") will be the ones who get re-balanced, but it will not matter as you will have set the precedent of being happy with ZOS doing as they wish and lying.
To make it worse, now PvP players who did all of the quests on their main are now going to be forced to re-roll and level another character just to be competitive, and you, OP, think that is ok, that some middle ground can be achieved?
--
One more thing. Will all guilds who "talk with ZOS" please shut up. You are not actually doing anything. If you are actually talking to them then you do not represent any player I know especially if you supported this lie and subsequent insult. On the other hand, if you did not support this crap, then you are clearly not having an effect. So stop the name-dropping, pretentious crap and actually try to help the game and players, assuming that is your goal, start with posting to the forums and support player issues. ZOS does not have community reps like modern, mature MMOs otherwise they would have someone on the forums who spoke with players as opposed to to them.
Ok, first of all, please calm down. I am trying really hard to keep things civil here.
I understand why you are upset. I've leveled a single character in ESO and I've done all the quests, all the Dolmens, All the Dungeons, All group Achievements, All world Bosses.
As for the 30 CPs they are giving, if you read my entire post you should understand why they are offering that flat value for everyone. A can't have both the progression of the champion system and of the veteran system at the same time because that would create too strong of a disparity between the ranks!
For now the Vr14s will have to live with that and hope ZoS will compensate us when the Veteran System is truly removed. My little plan above was about reducing issues for the removal of the champion system while still giving enough points to players now for ZoS to run their tests.
As for the guilds that talk to ZoS, they can only do so much, specially during holiday time. Keep in mind the reason we haven't heard back from ZoS (except for Gina's latest and somewhat rushed post) is because they are mostly vacationing with their families, like most of us. They are human and deserve that rest. FOr now we wait, give them suggestions on how the release of 1.6 could be made better for everyone and hope they will listen.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just feel sorry for all of those who completed all the games content due to an unkept promise.
Now the only option they have is to go level a new character to VR1 or grind the hell out of Craglorn/dalies/PVP.
Fresh VR1 characters will probably end up with more CP in casual gameplay than anyone playing end game, simply because end game doesn't offer the EXP that two factions worth of quests do.
The above is assuming no Craglorn EXP grinds.
I am one of those that completed all playable content on my main and you know what, I had fun doing it. The Champion System wouldn't give me new content to play, so I'd be pretty much on the same situation now. All I can do on my main is raid, do my dailies, PvP and kill mobs in the Spell Scar to level skills.
1.6 is being released as test run of the Champion System and of the Justice System, none of those Systems is being fully released and Veteran System is not getting removed yet, so the difference between my power and the power of a vr1 will still be there, through the Veteran System's Attribute Points and Gear differential.
The only reason for anyone reasonable to be upset is fear of ZoS not compensating us when the Veteran System is truly removed (likely on 1.7). Oh! And new players that won't get these 30 free champion points even when they reach Vr1 within 1.6. Life will suck for them.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭GunemCleric wrote: »jaibierwb17_ESO wrote: »This is the best, well thought out solution I have seen. ZOS should give you a job.
Thanks! Truthfully, I'd love working for ZoS or working with games in general. I've been around MMOs for quite sometime.
I suggest you go work for a mature game publisher first. Based on the mistakes being made in everything from progression to community representation and communication you may want more experience in better and appropriate ways to handle these issues before joining a publisher that is still working on its first game.
They (ZOS) have a chance to take a good game, which is roughly based on an extremely mature universe, and make a great game. Unfortunately, it becomes less certain each and every time they make serious errors of judgement, such as the subject of this and many threads.
Also go pick up a couple books on game psychology, game theory, reward systems. There are many articles via ACM too, for example
Chen, Vivian Hsueh-hua, Henry Been-Lirn Duh, and Hong Renyi. "The changing dynamic of social interaction in World of Warcraft: the impacts of game feature change." Proceedings of the 2008 International Conference on Advances in Computer Entertainment Technology. ACM, 2008.
I did read a little into Game Psychology and Game Theory, but I will make sure to look into those works you mentioned. Thanks!
As for ZoS, every company is bound to make mistakes. Even giants like Blizzard make them, or made them in their infancy (WoW back on vanilla, what a disaster). We can only hope ZoS learns and comes around. On this particular situation things were made worse because of the Holidays... Everyone that can truly make decisions isn't working right now, Gina did all she could with the little information she has access to.
In time I home better communication lines between us and Devs are opened, or better communication open between the Devs and the customer support department of ZoS.0 -
GunemCleric✭✭✭
....
Ok, first of all, please calm down. I am trying really hard to keep things civil here.
I understand why you are upset. I've leveled a single character in ESO and I've done all the quests, all the Dolmens, All the Dungeons, All group Achievements, All world Bosses.
As for the 30 CPs they are giving, if you read my entire post you should understand why they are offering that flat value for everyone. A can't have both the progression of the champion system and of the veteran system at the same time because that would create too strong of a disparity between the ranks!
For now the Vr14s will have to live with that and hope ZoS will compensate us when the Veteran System is truly removed. My little plan above was about reducing issues for the removal of the champion system while still giving enough points to players now for ZoS to run their tests.
As for the guilds that talk to ZoS, they can only do so much, specially during holiday time. Keep in mind the reason we haven't heard back from ZoS (except for Gina's latest and somewhat rushed post) is because they are mostly vacationing with their families, like most of us. They are human and deserve that rest. FOr now we wait, give them suggestions on how the release of 1.6 could be made better for everyone and hope they will listen.
Please take your own advice regarding reading the post, specifically where I said "NO ONE has asked, reasonably speaking, for players to be unbalanced. I really do not care what we get for CP on 1.6, but screwing players out of their earned play time and not providing the conversion in 1.7 is unacceptable. Most of the people i know do not want to do quests EVER again..." I understand my post was long, but I was not asking for extra, only fair conversion for those of us who have actually done the questing.Gunerm Cleric ~ Dragon Knight, Tank ~ vr14Cruleg Nimec ~ Dragon Knight, DPS ~ vr14Gunem Cleric ~ Templar, Heals ~ vr3Cleric Gunem ~ Sorcerer, TBD ~ vr1Daggerfall Covenant (only) ~ NAGuts n Glory & Guts n Glory EOC ~ Guildmaster ~ GnG ~ MMO Dark GuildDaggerfall Cosa Nostra ~ Founder ~ DCN ~ DC guild leaders only (no cross faction PvP guilds)0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭GunemCleric wrote: »
....
Ok, first of all, please calm down. I am trying really hard to keep things civil here.
I understand why you are upset. I've leveled a single character in ESO and I've done all the quests, all the Dolmens, All the Dungeons, All group Achievements, All world Bosses.
As for the 30 CPs they are giving, if you read my entire post you should understand why they are offering that flat value for everyone. A can't have both the progression of the champion system and of the veteran system at the same time because that would create too strong of a disparity between the ranks!
For now the Vr14s will have to live with that and hope ZoS will compensate us when the Veteran System is truly removed. My little plan above was about reducing issues for the removal of the champion system while still giving enough points to players now for ZoS to run their tests.
As for the guilds that talk to ZoS, they can only do so much, specially during holiday time. Keep in mind the reason we haven't heard back from ZoS (except for Gina's latest and somewhat rushed post) is because they are mostly vacationing with their families, like most of us. They are human and deserve that rest. FOr now we wait, give them suggestions on how the release of 1.6 could be made better for everyone and hope they will listen.
Please take your own advice regarding reading the post, specifically where I said "NO ONE has asked, reasonably speaking, for players to be unbalanced. I really do not care what we get for CP on 1.6, but screwing players out of their earned play time and not providing the conversion in 1.7 is unacceptable. Most of the people i know do not want to do quests EVER again..." I understand my post was long, but I was not asking for extra, only fair conversion for those of us who have actually done the questing.
I did read your post @GunemCleric, what I said is that we don't know for sure what ZoS will do on 1.7. We barely know for sure if they will follow up with their plans for 1.6, once they read our posts here in the forum.
For now, we have to wait. I bet Gina or one of the Devs will come around soon to release a statement. If you want, leave suggestions on how you think the system should be implemented considering the complications of having to maintain both the Champion and Veteran Systems active together at least till patch 1.7.
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