A Big problem that Nobody is even talking about.

Subtomik · December 2014

Guppet wrote: »

Why should I avoid the justice system? Is that content exclusive for you too?

Your still clearly in denial as to why VR is being removed. Casual players pay the bills in MMO's these days, they are the priority.

Also where did I say casuals should grind? You do know your making stuff up right?

You should avoid any sort of inter faction PvP, seems the all those who had a year to "practice" are going to give you a rough introduction.

You said its a grind....then you said casuals dont care to push to the level cap because they are enjoying the scenery, which is it? If they want to sit around and find out what random NPC in glenumbra has to say good for them, that extra time not leveling is spent doing what they want to do. If they want to get to the level cap, work towards it, why would you want it handed to you?

and what % of people left because of the level cap lol, compared to the bugs that was a non-factor in the loss of subscriptions.

LegacyDM · December 2014

Guppet wrote: »

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

DSA is not 3000 hours of content, this whole game does not have 3000 hours of content. the champ system has over 3000 hours of progression, but do not confuse that with the game actually providing enough content to get there.

You were suggesting that casual players should not want to do things like DSA. When they only need to level to 50 (4 days) to do DSA rather than VR14 (12 days), then some of them probably will try that content (as they will now be the appropriate level, when previously they were not), which they are entitled to try.

So again, you insult rather than using any form of logic.

When did I suggest that they dont want to try it? They can WANT to try it all they want, but isnt the point of the game to have to earn the right to the content?

Last I checked you dont get to skip to the last boss of any game I have ever played because "reasons", how crappy would super mario have been if you loaded in at the final boss fight lol

the entitlement is astounding, people apparently dont want to "play" the game, they want to be given everything without work, and then "HA-HA" when they magically get put on footing with people who took the time to actually progress.

The good thing about this is, come a few months these folks will be left in the dust, and complaining for constant nerfs, and another boost when those who earned it dont invite them to the trial raid, or have them for lunch in cyrodiil.

Oh I see it now, you dislike the idea of casual players being able to access the same content as you, because they did not "earn" it.

You do realise the reason the VR system is being redone is to make it more accessible to those casual players? To remove the grind that they have not wanted to do (VR1-14).

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the whole reason VR is being scrapped. VR was a failure, it locked all endgame content behind the biggest levelling grind of any modern MMO. The champion system is to remedy that and hopefully bring back a lot of the players that quit due to VR levelling.

Im a casual player and hit VR 14 in 7 months doing pvp, dailys, and cadwells. I have a wife, a toddler, and three jobs (one full time job and two teaching jobs). Played on average maybe 2-3 hours a week day and a few hours on weekend. Spread out over time it wasn't a bad grind if at all. Have you played any modern korean mmos? This is nothing compared to them.

Averya_Teira · December 2014

olemanwinter wrote: »

spryler wrote: »

One obvious thing is gear - v14 players have better gear and thus will be better equipped to handle more difficult content..

I'm so glad you brought that up. Because NO. Shockingly No.

Consider this:

To use high level gear (after levels go away) you will have to allocate champion points for the right to use that gear you already have.

Those are points you would and could have otherwise used to strengthen your character.

New level 50s with no gear will have all those attribute points to allocate to build strength.

So, will that elite gear really make you any better than a fresh faced level 50 when he has more champion points than you do for his build because you had to use all yours for the right to wear the gear???

And where does that information come from exactly ? Oh that's right, from no where, pure speculations lol.

Guppet · December 2014

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Why should I avoid the justice system? Is that content exclusive for you too?

Your still clearly in denial as to why VR is being removed. Casual players pay the bills in MMO's these days, they are the priority.

Also where did I say casuals should grind? You do know your making stuff up right?

You should avoid any sort of inter faction PvP, seems the all those who had a year to "practice" are going to give you a rough introduction.

You said its a grind....then you said casuals dont care to push to the level cap because they are enjoying the scenery, which is it? If they want to sit around and find out what random NPC in glenumbra has to say good for them, that extra time not leveling is spent doing what they want to do. If they want to get to the level cap, work towards it, why would you want it handed to you?

and what % of people left because of the level cap lol, compared to the bugs that was a non-factor in the loss of subscriptions.

Again you arnt using any logic. I said they don't like to grind and the current system is a grind. It's not that hard to understand surly? The new system will be much better for them as they can participate in end game without having to grind vr1-14. There you go You don't need to figure it out now.

Also it seems your assuming I'm a casual. You know what they say about assuming.

As for PVP, which I quite enjoy in this game, I have been pvping since CS 1.6, so it holds no fear for me. Again you make assumptions, again they are wrong.

xMovingTarget · December 2014

Averya_Teira wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

spryler wrote: »

One obvious thing is gear - v14 players have better gear and thus will be better equipped to handle more difficult content..

I'm so glad you brought that up. Because NO. Shockingly No.

Consider this:

To use high level gear (after levels go away) you will have to allocate champion points for the right to use that gear you already have.

Those are points you would and could have otherwise used to strengthen your character.

New level 50s with no gear will have all those attribute points to allocate to build strength.

So, will that elite gear really make you any better than a fresh faced level 50 when he has more champion points than you do for his build because you had to use all yours for the right to wear the gear???

And where does that information come from exactly ? Oh that's right, from no where, pure speculations lol.

I also havnt heard of that. It would dodge all logic. So IF this were true, on top of not compensating us when they take our VRs away they also force us to spend points even to keep wearing what we already wear! And lower our CP pool even further. That would be a "How to Kill a MMORPG succesfully" !

Every person who at least uses his brainpower by 5% would leave the game.

So first he doesnt provide a good official source and second he only is capable of using 4% Brainpower.

Subtomik · December 2014

Guppet wrote: »

Again you arnt using any logic. I said they don't like to grind and the current system is a grind. It's not that hard to understand surly? The new system will be much better for them as they can participate in end game without having to grind vr1-14. There you go You don't need to figure it out now.

Also it seems your assuming I'm a casual. You know what they say about assuming.

As for PVP, which I quite enjoy in this game, I have been pvping since CS 1.6, so it holds no fear for me. Again you make assumptions, again they are wrong.

Sorry, like the guy said before me hitting level cap isnt difficult. Only casuals will want things for free they didnt earn.

You wont post your character/stats for this exact reason, rather than "prove" you arent you will make jokes about assuming. Im sure you make a mean tyro, though.

KaneK899ub17_ESO · December 2014

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

No one likes getting flat out lied to. If your ok with getting lied to and accept ZOS's terms that's your prerogative. However, some of us who actually worked hard, based off of false pretense want are voices heard. If ZOS had half a brain they would find a solution that compensates all players rather than giving those VR 14s that completed cadwells the index finger.

If Apple made a difinitive statement saying their next iPhone would have xyz capability and it was released without it, and millions of people saved their money and waited in line for it, only to find out after they bought it and it did not have xyz. Do you think that's acceptable? What do you think would happen to Apple stock and reputation?

Your right, things are subject to change but lying to your customers is poor business practice.

Actually, no definitive statement was ever made because it always has the "is subject to change" tacked on somewhere. Read between the lines, check the fine print and accept that -nothing- ZOS says is ever definitive. It's not lying if they state that the "current plan is this, but is subject to change". They always frame it as "this is the current plan". Current plan meaning possibly not the future plan.

Also, you're complaining about working hard in a video game. I hit VR14 on accident. I was tired of leveling and stopped at V12. Oh, whoops, need to finish ranking up a few skills. Oh, VR14. So hard. It's such an accomplishment it's amazing that anyone has done it at all! Just kidding, it's a joke. Stop acting like gaming is your job and start acting like it's something fun to do and this stuff stops mattering as much. Enough stress in life without worrying about your hobby not working out 100% the way you wanted it to.

LegacyDM · December 2014

KaneK899ub17_ESO wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

No one likes getting flat out lied to. If your ok with getting lied to and accept ZOS's terms that's your prerogative. However, some of us who actually worked hard, based off of false pretense want are voices heard. If ZOS had half a brain they would find a solution that compensates all players rather than giving those VR 14s that completed cadwells the index finger.

If Apple made a difinitive statement saying their next iPhone would have xyz capability and it was released without it, and millions of people saved their money and waited in line for it, only to find out after they bought it and it did not have xyz. Do you think that's acceptable? What do you think would happen to Apple stock and reputation?

Your right, things are subject to change but lying to your customers is poor business practice.

Actually, no definitive statement was ever made because it always has the "is subject to change" tacked on somewhere. Read between the lines, check the fine print and accept that -nothing- ZOS says is ever definitive. It's not lying if they state that the "current plan is this, but is subject to change". They always frame it as "this is the current plan". Current plan meaning possibly not the future plan.

Also, you're complaining about working hard in a video game. I hit VR14 on accident. I was tired of leveling and stopped at V12. Oh, whoops, need to finish ranking up a few skills. Oh, VR14. So hard. It's such an accomplishment it's amazing that anyone has done it at all! Just kidding, it's a joke. Stop acting like gaming is your job and start acting like it's something fun to do and this stuff stops mattering as much. Enough stress in life without worrying about your hobby not working out 100% the way you wanted it to.

Do I really need to repost what everyone has in their signature?!

ZOS_MariaAliprando wrote: »
Greetings! I am Maria Aliprando, Gameplay Designer on the Champion System.
Should players that are VR1+ still work towards VR12 or should they just wait until the new changes.
Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14. When the Champion System comes out we will reward you points right away based on the amount of XP you have earned up to a cap.

When a lead software developer states the above as fact and not a proposed plan, that's pretty damn definitive. She's talking in present tense not some possible plan subject to change. When a developer says this to a group of paying customers we have the right to have the expected outcome. Not some backtrack disguised as a design change that screws veteren players.

Just because something is hard doesn't mean it's not fun. It took me 7 months to become VR 14. It was fun, hard at times, and I put s lot of time into my character only to be slapped in the face by ZOS and people like you that find it acceptable for paying customers to be lied to because I'm the sucker that took a developer at her word.

KaneK899ub17_ESO · December 2014

Sure, sounds definitive, but the TOS or EULA (can't remember which) supercede, oh, everything, and clearly states that everything is subject to change. Don't know why you can't grasp that.

You pay for access to the servers to play the game that they make. Period. It's not up to your to make decisions about the game, it's only up to you whether you continue playing, or how you play. You chose to play your way, and hey, it didn't work out. Didn't work out for me either since I've been VR14 for several months. I chose to play my way, I don't expect ZOS to compensate me for it. I only pay for access to play the game they made. That's it. If I don't like how they're making the game, I have the choice to quit. If you want to see the fun and good times you had as being worthless because you lost some CP, that's on you. The reality is, the 15 bucks you spend doesn't give you a right to dictate how the game goes. It only gives you a right to try to enjoy the time you spend in it.

LegacyDM · December 2014

KaneK899ub17_ESO wrote: »

Sure, sounds definitive, but the TOS or EULA (can't remember which) supercede, oh, everything, and clearly states that everything is subject to change. Don't know why you can't grasp that.

You pay for access to the servers to play the game that they make. Period. It's not up to your to make decisions about the game, it's only up to you whether you continue playing, or how you play. You chose to play your way, and hey, it didn't work out. Didn't work out for me either since I've been VR14 for several months. I chose to play my way, I don't expect ZOS to compensate me for it. I only pay for access to play the game they made. That's it. If I don't like how they're making the game, I have the choice to quit. If you want to see the fun and good times you had as being worthless because you lost some CP, that's on you. The reality is, the 15 bucks you spend doesn't give you a right to dictate how the game goes. It only gives you a right to try to enjoy the time you spend in it.

It certainly gives me the right to voice my displeasure and provide feedback for their f-ups. Why can't you grasp that? You just gonna sit here and take it up the ass and shrug your shoulders and say oh well I guess the tos and Eula supersedes my voice of discontent and gives them the right to make blatant false statements?

KaneK899ub17_ESO · December 2014

That's exactly what the TOS and EULA do. It's called covering their ass. They aren't susceptible to legal action nor compelled to do anything any of us says specifically because of those documents. Glad you read them (jk). You agreed to this when you signed on, man. Sorry you didn't bother looking into it. Never consider anything out of any game dev's mouth (or keyboard) to be concrete. It's laid out, specifically, in the documentation you were supposed to read when you signed on.

You definitely have a right to voice your discontent, granted you only have a privilege to do so on their forums. Glad to see you making use of it. I have the right to disagree with you, though and the privilege to do so on their forums. I'm certainly making use of that.

I accept that I paid 15 dollars a month for the service and a license to play the game as they design it. I knew that's what I signed up for because, well, that's standard practice for every single MMO dating back to UO and Meridian. My point is, I'm not really "taking it up the arse" because this stuffis in every MMO ever and people still don't seem to grasp what their 15 bucks buys them. It's basic.

If you bothered looking at the EULA you'd understand you're not entitled to -anything- and that's what bothers me. The entitlement. You knowingly accepted their terms but still feel entitled to something extra because "herp derp I paid 15 bucks". Guess what, some people paid 15 bucks every month since February and still don't have a VR14. You're only complaining because you don't feel compensated enough for putting more effort into a single character than into many, or because you have more time to play than others.

If you want to take the money stance, feel free, but it doesn't work out very well.

And just to note, I hit VR14 months ago.

Guppet · December 2014

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Again you arnt using any logic. I said they don't like to grind and the current system is a grind. It's not that hard to understand surly? The new system will be much better for them as they can participate in end game without having to grind vr1-14. There you go You don't need to figure it out now.

Also it seems your assuming I'm a casual. You know what they say about assuming.

As for PVP, which I quite enjoy in this game, I have been pvping since CS 1.6, so it holds no fear for me. Again you make assumptions, again they are wrong.

Sorry, like the guy said before me hitting level cap isnt difficult. Only casuals will want things for free they didnt earn.

You wont post your character/stats for this exact reason, rather than "prove" you arent you will make jokes about assuming. Im sure you make a mean tyro, though.

Lol, I don't need to prove anything to you about my own experiences. My experiences change nothing in what we were discussing. You were the one bringing personal experience into it, as it it somehow makes your right.

LegacyDM · December 2014

KaneK899ub17_ESO wrote: »

That's exactly what the TOS and EULA do. It's called covering their ass. They aren't susceptible to legal action nor compelled to do anything any of us says specifically because of those documents. Glad you read them (jk). You agreed to this when you signed on, man. Sorry you didn't bother looking into it. Never consider anything out of any game dev's mouth (or keyboard) to be concrete. It's laid out, specifically, in the documentation you were supposed to read when you signed on.

You definitely have a right to voice your discontent, granted you only have a privilege to do so on their forums. Glad to see you making use of it. I have the right to disagree with you, though and the privilege to do so on their forums. I'm certainly making use of that.

I accept that I paid 15 dollars a month for the service and a license to play the game as they design it. I knew that's what I signed up for because, well, that's standard practice for every single MMO dating back to UO and Meridian. My point is, I'm not really "taking it up the arse" because this stuffis in every MMO ever and people still don't seem to grasp what their 15 bucks buys them. It's basic.

If you bothered looking at the EULA you'd understand you're not entitled to -anything- and that's what bothers me. The entitlement. You knowingly accepted their terms but still feel entitled to something extra because "herp derp I paid 15 bucks". Guess what, some people paid 15 bucks every month since February and still don't have a VR14. You're only complaining because you don't feel compensated enough for putting more effort into a single character than into many, or because you have more time to play than others.

If you want to take the money stance, feel free, but it doesn't work out very well.

And just to note, I hit VR14 months ago.

Yawn, your diatribe on Eula bores me. You keep defending the Eula and I'll keep sticking to my principles.

I've been playing mmorpgs since MUDs and I have never ever been In a situation where a developer blatanly says one thing and then a month or so later the company does an entire 180 on game design and screws a good portion of the paying player base. This has nothing to do with entitlement and everything to do with balance and fairness to all paying subscribers. Not just a select portion. Quite frankly, if your going to make definitive statements follow through, else don't make them at all. Good god man, why would she make a statement like that if there was a shred of doubt? ZOS has to be smart enough to know that not following through would cause damage to their reputation and create an uproar?! Which it has done! Eula or not, a good portion of the player base will probably unsubscribe because they feel cheated and lied too. Defend it it all you want, but morally it is wrong and not a smart business practice.

We are done. I tire of going back and forth with you. Agree to disagree and move on.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · December 2014

Guppet wrote: »

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

DSA is not 3000 hours of content, this whole game does not have 3000 hours of content. the champ system has over 3000 hours of progression, but do not confuse that with the game actually providing enough content to get there.

You were suggesting that casual players should not want to do things like DSA. When they only need to level to 50 (4 days) to do DSA rather than VR14 (12 days), then some of them probably will try that content (as they will now be the appropriate level, when previously they were not), which they are entitled to try.

So again, you insult rather than using any form of logic.

When did I suggest that they dont want to try it? They can WANT to try it all they want, but isnt the point of the game to have to earn the right to the content?

Last I checked you dont get to skip to the last boss of any game I have ever played because "reasons", how crappy would super mario have been if you loaded in at the final boss fight lol

the entitlement is astounding, people apparently dont want to "play" the game, they want to be given everything without work, and then "HA-HA" when they magically get put on footing with people who took the time to actually progress.

The good thing about this is, come a few months these folks will be left in the dust, and complaining for constant nerfs, and another boost when those who earned it dont invite them to the trial raid, or have them for lunch in cyrodiil.

Oh I see it now, you dislike the idea of casual players being able to access the same content as you, because they did not "earn" it.

You do realise the reason the VR system is being redone is to make it more accessible to those casual players? To remove the grind that they have not wanted to do (VR1-14).

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the whole reason VR is being scrapped. VR was a failure, it locked all endgame content behind the biggest levelling grind of any modern MMO. The champion system is to remedy that and hopefully bring back a lot of the players that quit due to VR levelling.

the champion system comes to the rescue!!! by adding 3600 points to grind out which will more than likely become a requirement to have "X" points to do "y" activity.....

Valencer · December 2014

Subtomik wrote: »

You are angry that everyone in this game wasnt given a carbon copy character and access to all the same goodies.

I would love to hear your argument regarding as to why players should get things without "earning" it.

The VR14 grind was cake. If you are "grinding" v14 it shouldnt have been hard at all, you cant seem to make up your mind as to whether casuals are grinding or taking their sweet time to take in the scenery.

So according to you, My 25+million AP points was "practice" and being emp on the top few times "practice"

same with vet DSA, Trials, ETC.

And now the game is really starting? its ok you werent trying because this wasnt the actual game, it only starts when you say its ready to start?

Oh well, seems the only way 1.6 could be a complete failure is if there is nothing to separate someone who has "earned" their titles and ranks from those who havent.

Looks like you're a PvPer.

I believe most PvPers nowadays grind to VR14 before they actually go into Cyrodiil. Do you think that is good game design at work? Do you think that's in any way needed? For a lot people it takes a lot of time and isn't fun at all.

You can pretend the Veteran Rank system is fine all you want, but for a lot of current and ex-ESO players, the system is a pain in the ass that doesn't add anything to the game.

Koensol · December 2014

kieso wrote: »

As someone who has a VR 12, VR3 and a VR 5 these changes are good. It will make the game less grindy, feel more open and make the exp system less convoluted.

If you feel you're getting shafted because of the amount of work you had to do versus newer players then you need to reevaluate why you play this game.

Truer words are rarely spoken. People who QQ about getting less CP than their lower level counterparts, should really stop it. You played the game, got to max level and played your content, whatever that may be. If a standard amount of CP for every V1 seems unfair and gamebreaking to you that you may unsub, I think you should've unsubbed before. This mentality is completely over the top.

Guppet · December 2014

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

DSA is not 3000 hours of content, this whole game does not have 3000 hours of content. the champ system has over 3000 hours of progression, but do not confuse that with the game actually providing enough content to get there.

You were suggesting that casual players should not want to do things like DSA. When they only need to level to 50 (4 days) to do DSA rather than VR14 (12 days), then some of them probably will try that content (as they will now be the appropriate level, when previously they were not), which they are entitled to try.

So again, you insult rather than using any form of logic.

When did I suggest that they dont want to try it? They can WANT to try it all they want, but isnt the point of the game to have to earn the right to the content?

Last I checked you dont get to skip to the last boss of any game I have ever played because "reasons", how crappy would super mario have been if you loaded in at the final boss fight lol

the entitlement is astounding, people apparently dont want to "play" the game, they want to be given everything without work, and then "HA-HA" when they magically get put on footing with people who took the time to actually progress.

The good thing about this is, come a few months these folks will be left in the dust, and complaining for constant nerfs, and another boost when those who earned it dont invite them to the trial raid, or have them for lunch in cyrodiil.

Oh I see it now, you dislike the idea of casual players being able to access the same content as you, because they did not "earn" it.

You do realise the reason the VR system is being redone is to make it more accessible to those casual players? To remove the grind that they have not wanted to do (VR1-14).

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the whole reason VR is being scrapped. VR was a failure, it locked all endgame content behind the biggest levelling grind of any modern MMO. The champion system is to remedy that and hopefully bring back a lot of the players that quit due to VR levelling.

the champion system comes to the rescue!!! by adding 3600 points to grind out which will more than likely become a requirement to have "X" points to do "y" activity.....

That is entirely speculation. It would lock all new players hitting level 50, out of the current content cycle, it would defeat what they are trying to do with the CP system, if it turns out to be correct.

Having all current level 50 players being able to play the latest content, would be the single biggest benefit of the champion system.

That said, they could well make that mistake, they don't have a great track record at the moment.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · December 2014

Guppet wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

DSA is not 3000 hours of content, this whole game does not have 3000 hours of content. the champ system has over 3000 hours of progression, but do not confuse that with the game actually providing enough content to get there.

You were suggesting that casual players should not want to do things like DSA. When they only need to level to 50 (4 days) to do DSA rather than VR14 (12 days), then some of them probably will try that content (as they will now be the appropriate level, when previously they were not), which they are entitled to try.

So again, you insult rather than using any form of logic.

When did I suggest that they dont want to try it? They can WANT to try it all they want, but isnt the point of the game to have to earn the right to the content?

Last I checked you dont get to skip to the last boss of any game I have ever played because "reasons", how crappy would super mario have been if you loaded in at the final boss fight lol

the entitlement is astounding, people apparently dont want to "play" the game, they want to be given everything without work, and then "HA-HA" when they magically get put on footing with people who took the time to actually progress.

The good thing about this is, come a few months these folks will be left in the dust, and complaining for constant nerfs, and another boost when those who earned it dont invite them to the trial raid, or have them for lunch in cyrodiil.

Oh I see it now, you dislike the idea of casual players being able to access the same content as you, because they did not "earn" it.

You do realise the reason the VR system is being redone is to make it more accessible to those casual players? To remove the grind that they have not wanted to do (VR1-14).

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the whole reason VR is being scrapped. VR was a failure, it locked all endgame content behind the biggest levelling grind of any modern MMO. The champion system is to remedy that and hopefully bring back a lot of the players that quit due to VR levelling.

the champion system comes to the rescue!!! by adding 3600 points to grind out which will more than likely become a requirement to have "X" points to do "y" activity.....

That is entirely speculation. It would lock all new players hitting level 50, out of the current content cycle, it would defeat what they are trying to do with the CP system, if it turns out to be correct.

Having all current level 50 players being able to play the latest content, would be the single biggest benefit of the champion system.

That said they could well make that mistake, they don't have a great track record at the moment.

bull chips... they had the same type of system in EQ1 and guess what "must be level cap+ a minimum of "x" AA points" was common on guild requirements, and pug raids. it will more than likely happen here. this is why i said on another thread this system is not much better than the VR system, and it will be a much bigger time sink over time.

Razzak · December 2014

KaneK899ub17_ESO wrote: »

That's exactly what the TOS and EULA do. It's called covering their ass. They aren't susceptible to legal action nor compelled to do anything any of us says specifically because of those documents. Glad you read them (jk). You agreed to this when you signed on, man. Sorry you didn't bother looking into it. Never consider anything out of any game dev's mouth (or keyboard) to be concrete. It's laid out, specifically, in the documentation you were supposed to read when you signed on.

You definitely have a right to voice your discontent, granted you only have a privilege to do so on their forums. Glad to see you making use of it. I have the right to disagree with you, though and the privilege to do so on their forums. I'm certainly making use of that.

I accept that I paid 15 dollars a month for the service and a license to play the game as they design it. I knew that's what I signed up for because, well, that's standard practice for every single MMO dating back to UO and Meridian. My point is, I'm not really "taking it up the arse" because this stuffis in every MMO ever and people still don't seem to grasp what their 15 bucks buys them. It's basic.

If you bothered looking at the EULA you'd understand you're not entitled to -anything- and that's what bothers me. The entitlement. You knowingly accepted their terms but still feel entitled to something extra because "herp derp I paid 15 bucks". Guess what, some people paid 15 bucks every month since February and still don't have a VR14. You're only complaining because you don't feel compensated enough for putting more effort into a single character than into many, or because you have more time to play than others.

If you want to take the money stance, feel free, but it doesn't work out very well.

And just to note, I hit VR14 months ago.

It's true. TOS and EULA are there to cover their ass, but the thing that protects them the most, in such cases where their responsibility is questioned, are customers that simply except it. I know it's very christian to turn the other cheek, but it only works in fairy tales.
No TOS and/or EULA can protect you from lyeing

Guppet wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

DSA is not 3000 hours of content, this whole game does not have 3000 hours of content. the champ system has over 3000 hours of progression, but do not confuse that with the game actually providing enough content to get there.

You were suggesting that casual players should not want to do things like DSA. When they only need to level to 50 (4 days) to do DSA rather than VR14 (12 days), then some of them probably will try that content (as they will now be the appropriate level, when previously they were not), which they are entitled to try.

So again, you insult rather than using any form of logic.

When did I suggest that they dont want to try it? They can WANT to try it all they want, but isnt the point of the game to have to earn the right to the content?

Last I checked you dont get to skip to the last boss of any game I have ever played because "reasons", how crappy would super mario have been if you loaded in at the final boss fight lol

the entitlement is astounding, people apparently dont want to "play" the game, they want to be given everything without work, and then "HA-HA" when they magically get put on footing with people who took the time to actually progress.

The good thing about this is, come a few months these folks will be left in the dust, and complaining for constant nerfs, and another boost when those who earned it dont invite them to the trial raid, or have them for lunch in cyrodiil.

Oh I see it now, you dislike the idea of casual players being able to access the same content as you, because they did not "earn" it.

You do realise the reason the VR system is being redone is to make it more accessible to those casual players? To remove the grind that they have not wanted to do (VR1-14).

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the whole reason VR is being scrapped. VR was a failure, it locked all endgame content behind the biggest levelling grind of any modern MMO. The champion system is to remedy that and hopefully bring back a lot of the players that quit due to VR levelling.

the champion system comes to the rescue!!! by adding 3600 points to grind out which will more than likely become a requirement to have "X" points to do "y" activity.....

That is entirely speculation. It would lock all new players hitting level 50, out of the current content cycle, it would defeat what they are trying to do with the CP system, if it turns out to be correct.

Having all current level 50 players being able to play the latest content, would be the single biggest benefit of the champion system.

That said, they could well make that mistake, they don't have a great track record at the moment.

Do you really think raids and similar will not be "How many CPs have you got so far?". There is always a way to determine if someone is on the level you require for certain activities. And since there will be no levels to distinguish us, the amount of CPs could be the next "level".

Guppet · December 2014

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

DSA is not 3000 hours of content, this whole game does not have 3000 hours of content. the champ system has over 3000 hours of progression, but do not confuse that with the game actually providing enough content to get there.

You were suggesting that casual players should not want to do things like DSA. When they only need to level to 50 (4 days) to do DSA rather than VR14 (12 days), then some of them probably will try that content (as they will now be the appropriate level, when previously they were not), which they are entitled to try.

So again, you insult rather than using any form of logic.

When did I suggest that they dont want to try it? They can WANT to try it all they want, but isnt the point of the game to have to earn the right to the content?

Last I checked you dont get to skip to the last boss of any game I have ever played because "reasons", how crappy would super mario have been if you loaded in at the final boss fight lol

the entitlement is astounding, people apparently dont want to "play" the game, they want to be given everything without work, and then "HA-HA" when they magically get put on footing with people who took the time to actually progress.

The good thing about this is, come a few months these folks will be left in the dust, and complaining for constant nerfs, and another boost when those who earned it dont invite them to the trial raid, or have them for lunch in cyrodiil.

Oh I see it now, you dislike the idea of casual players being able to access the same content as you, because they did not "earn" it.

You do realise the reason the VR system is being redone is to make it more accessible to those casual players? To remove the grind that they have not wanted to do (VR1-14).

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the whole reason VR is being scrapped. VR was a failure, it locked all endgame content behind the biggest levelling grind of any modern MMO. The champion system is to remedy that and hopefully bring back a lot of the players that quit due to VR levelling.

the champion system comes to the rescue!!! by adding 3600 points to grind out which will more than likely become a requirement to have "X" points to do "y" activity.....

That is entirely speculation. It would lock all new players hitting level 50, out of the current content cycle, it would defeat what they are trying to do with the CP system, if it turns out to be correct.

Having all current level 50 players being able to play the latest content, would be the single biggest benefit of the champion system.

That said they could well make that mistake, they don't have a great track record at the moment.

bull chips... they had the same type of system in EQ1 and guess what "must be level cap+ a minimum of "x" AA points" was common on guild requirements, and pug raids. it will more than likely happen here. this is why i said on another thread this system is not much better than the VR system, and it will be a much bigger time sink over time.

Its almost like the past 10 years of MMO evolution never happened. EQ was catered to the hardcore raid crowd, why on earth would they use that as their template?

Also you said guild requirements, as in player enforced restrictions, not mechanics based ones. What makes you think you can see other players CP values? There has been nothing to suggest that so far, that is speculation.

Players will always have the ability to exclude other players from their groups raids, nothing can ever change that. But that's a community related restriction, not game based.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · December 2014

Guppet wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

DSA is not 3000 hours of content, this whole game does not have 3000 hours of content. the champ system has over 3000 hours of progression, but do not confuse that with the game actually providing enough content to get there.

You were suggesting that casual players should not want to do things like DSA. When they only need to level to 50 (4 days) to do DSA rather than VR14 (12 days), then some of them probably will try that content (as they will now be the appropriate level, when previously they were not), which they are entitled to try.

So again, you insult rather than using any form of logic.

When did I suggest that they dont want to try it? They can WANT to try it all they want, but isnt the point of the game to have to earn the right to the content?

Last I checked you dont get to skip to the last boss of any game I have ever played because "reasons", how crappy would super mario have been if you loaded in at the final boss fight lol

the entitlement is astounding, people apparently dont want to "play" the game, they want to be given everything without work, and then "HA-HA" when they magically get put on footing with people who took the time to actually progress.

The good thing about this is, come a few months these folks will be left in the dust, and complaining for constant nerfs, and another boost when those who earned it dont invite them to the trial raid, or have them for lunch in cyrodiil.

Oh I see it now, you dislike the idea of casual players being able to access the same content as you, because they did not "earn" it.

You do realise the reason the VR system is being redone is to make it more accessible to those casual players? To remove the grind that they have not wanted to do (VR1-14).

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the whole reason VR is being scrapped. VR was a failure, it locked all endgame content behind the biggest levelling grind of any modern MMO. The champion system is to remedy that and hopefully bring back a lot of the players that quit due to VR levelling.

the champion system comes to the rescue!!! by adding 3600 points to grind out which will more than likely become a requirement to have "X" points to do "y" activity.....

That is entirely speculation. It would lock all new players hitting level 50, out of the current content cycle, it would defeat what they are trying to do with the CP system, if it turns out to be correct.

Having all current level 50 players being able to play the latest content, would be the single biggest benefit of the champion system.

That said they could well make that mistake, they don't have a great track record at the moment.

bull chips... they had the same type of system in EQ1 and guess what "must be level cap+ a minimum of "x" AA points" was common on guild requirements, and pug raids. it will more than likely happen here. this is why i said on another thread this system is not much better than the VR system, and it will be a much bigger time sink over time.

Its almost like the past 10 years of MMO evolution never happened. EQ was catered to the hardcore raid crowd, why on earth would they use that as their template?

Also you said guild requirements, as in player enforced restrictions, not mechanics based ones. What makes you think you can see other players CP values? There has been nothing to suggest that so far, that is speculation.

Players will always have the ability to exclude other players from their groups raids, nothing can ever change that. But that's a community related restriction, not game based.

EQ's system worked and worked well. also it wasnt only geared only to hardcore raiding but you had to be hardcore to put up with their rigorous raiding. it was also a grouping game; not a "go put on green drop gear and win" game.

groups kick you for gear/DPS checks already

good guilds will find a way to know, otherwise they probably arent 1%er guilds. *** players stand out like a sore thumb; stupid players are the worst. there will probably be some glaring abilities that will be required and more than likely be observed through game play (like a lack of HP). guilds that require those counts talk to the other guilds, and you will get dealt with by players.

CP is a mechanic period. its part of character development. the more points invested, the more benefits you get to various aspects of your character's stats. it adds percentages to health, magicka, stamina among other things. its modifier system, you dump a thousand hours in only to need to dump a thousand more with each expansion.

bottom line: ALL level 50's WONT be welcome to play ALL the latest content EVER. when they raise the cap to 60 the same will hold true, and same when they raise it to 65, 70, 85 whatever.

the mechanics will drive the players to judge, so it doesn't matter what then intent is for the mechanics now or later.

Guppet · December 2014

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Subtomik wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

DSA is not 3000 hours of content, this whole game does not have 3000 hours of content. the champ system has over 3000 hours of progression, but do not confuse that with the game actually providing enough content to get there.

You were suggesting that casual players should not want to do things like DSA. When they only need to level to 50 (4 days) to do DSA rather than VR14 (12 days), then some of them probably will try that content (as they will now be the appropriate level, when previously they were not), which they are entitled to try.

So again, you insult rather than using any form of logic.

When did I suggest that they dont want to try it? They can WANT to try it all they want, but isnt the point of the game to have to earn the right to the content?

Last I checked you dont get to skip to the last boss of any game I have ever played because "reasons", how crappy would super mario have been if you loaded in at the final boss fight lol

the entitlement is astounding, people apparently dont want to "play" the game, they want to be given everything without work, and then "HA-HA" when they magically get put on footing with people who took the time to actually progress.

The good thing about this is, come a few months these folks will be left in the dust, and complaining for constant nerfs, and another boost when those who earned it dont invite them to the trial raid, or have them for lunch in cyrodiil.

Oh I see it now, you dislike the idea of casual players being able to access the same content as you, because they did not "earn" it.

You do realise the reason the VR system is being redone is to make it more accessible to those casual players? To remove the grind that they have not wanted to do (VR1-14).

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the whole reason VR is being scrapped. VR was a failure, it locked all endgame content behind the biggest levelling grind of any modern MMO. The champion system is to remedy that and hopefully bring back a lot of the players that quit due to VR levelling.

the champion system comes to the rescue!!! by adding 3600 points to grind out which will more than likely become a requirement to have "X" points to do "y" activity.....

That is entirely speculation. It would lock all new players hitting level 50, out of the current content cycle, it would defeat what they are trying to do with the CP system, if it turns out to be correct.

Having all current level 50 players being able to play the latest content, would be the single biggest benefit of the champion system.

That said they could well make that mistake, they don't have a great track record at the moment.

bull chips... they had the same type of system in EQ1 and guess what "must be level cap+ a minimum of "x" AA points" was common on guild requirements, and pug raids. it will more than likely happen here. this is why i said on another thread this system is not much better than the VR system, and it will be a much bigger time sink over time.

Its almost like the past 10 years of MMO evolution never happened. EQ was catered to the hardcore raid crowd, why on earth would they use that as their template?

Also you said guild requirements, as in player enforced restrictions, not mechanics based ones. What makes you think you can see other players CP values? There has been nothing to suggest that so far, that is speculation.

Players will always have the ability to exclude other players from their groups raids, nothing can ever change that. But that's a community related restriction, not game based.

EQ's system worked and worked well. also it wasnt only geared only to hardcore raiding but you had to be hardcore to put up with their rigorous raiding. it was also a grouping game; not a "go put on green drop gear and win" game.

groups kick you for gear/DPS checks already

good guilds will find a way to know, otherwise they probably arent 1%er guilds. *** players stand out like a sore thumb; stupid players are the worst. there will probably be some glaring abilities that will be required and more than likely be observed through game play (like a lack of HP). guilds that require those counts talk to the other guilds, and you will get dealt with by players.

CP is a mechanic period. its part of character development. the more points invested, the more benefits you get to various aspects of your character's stats. it adds percentages to health, magicka, stamina among other things. its modifier system, you dump a thousand hours in only to need to dump a thousand more with each expansion.

bottom line: ALL level 50's WONT be welcome to play ALL the latest content EVER. when they raise the cap to 60 the same will hold true, and same when they raise it to 65, 70, 85 whatever.

the mechanics will drive the players to judge, so it doesn't matter what then intent is for the mechanics now or later.

I have no qualms at all with any of that. At the end of the day its up to people to play with the players they want to and they have the right to exclude those players that they don't think are skilled or equipped well enough.

So long as the game does not specifically prevent people from trying content, they can not claim the game excludes them. If they cant do it they can then form their own guilds and try to improve (they may succeed, they may not, that's for them to see).

Provided the game has hard modes and normal modes the appropriate players can access the content appropriate to them. once they have figured out their own level.

Now if a truly casual player comes here saying that they cant complete hard modes, ill be first to say they are not prepared enough.

The problem is even those normal modes are currently locked behind that massive (to a casual player) grind to VR14.

RainfeatherUK · December 2014

Guppet wrote: »

So long as the game does not specifically prevent people from trying content, they can not claim the game excludes them. If they cant do it they can then form their own guilds and try to improve (they may succeed, they may not, that's for them to see). [1]

Now if a truly casual player comes here saying that they cant complete hard modes, ill be first to say they are not prepared enough. [2]

Pretty much that. We need to buck the trend of 'lowering difficulty overall' to appease ignorance. As thats of no benefit to anyone - and actually ruins the game for everyone too.

At the same time we need to develop a game (and social) medium from which new and less experienced players can develop and learn.

When people understand that there is a platform for their development (regardless of skill level) that can end in them being able to join in with challenging content, then everyone is happy.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · December 2014

olemanwinter wrote: »

The Devs are now on record clarifying that the move to the champion system is effectively a releveling of veteran players. lvl 50 and VR14 will have the same champion points. Not temporarily, but permanently until you begin to earn them 1 at a time.

OK FINE.

The Devs are also on record saying that they want you to continue to be able to do what you do now.

So, where I once was completing content in Craglorn at VR14, I will now be able to complete the same content as a lvl 50 with my 30 champion points.

But if a pre-1.6 version lvl 50 gets the same number of champion points, won't they also be able to hanle the same content as I am, since we are working with the same stats?

Logically, you cannot make lvl 50 and VR14 the same without either lowering the difficulty of Craglorn (and other elite content) OR making the jump from level 49 to level 50 so great that the other zones offer zero challenge whatsoever.

Again, look at this logically. If the content isn't going to change, if a Craglorn boss is going to have the same HP, same armor, same abilities, and same damage in 1.6 then HOW can lvl 50 and VR14 be made the same without everything between Coldharbor and Craglorn becoming pointless/effortless?

If you insist on releveling players in 1.6, that's fine (it's really not), but please explain what that will mean. VR14 is just a number. Level 50 is just a number. 30 Champion points is just a number. It's all meaningless until it's compared along side content.

And logically that is where the whole plan fails.

TLDR:

My concern in one sentence:

IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.

This effectively makes Craglorn and Coldharbor nearly the same. Like the difference between Rivenspire and Alik'r Desert.

Zos, not only have you alienated your community by lying to us to encourage temporary subscriptions ("were tracking XP), and punished players who put in more time, but you have effectively just shrunken your own game. Way to go.

Currently the game is far to easy and doles out far to much exp. They are doing a good thing as far as the reset my beef is that they are wiping ALL of my progression past vr1 which is extremely rude to say the least.

This thread made me giggle though.

killedbyping · December 2014

olemanwinter wrote: »

The Devs are now on record clarifying that the move to the champion system is effectively a releveling of veteran players. lvl 50 and VR14 will have the same champion points. Not temporarily, but permanently until you begin to earn them 1 at a time.

OK FINE.

The Devs are also on record saying that they want you to continue to be able to do what you do now.

So, where I once was completing content in Craglorn at VR14, I will now be able to complete the same content as a lvl 50 with my 30 champion points.

But if a pre-1.6 version lvl 50 gets the same number of champion points, won't they also be able to hanle the same content as I am, since we are working with the same stats?

Logically, you cannot make lvl 50 and VR14 the same without either lowering the difficulty of Craglorn (and other elite content) OR making the jump from level 49 to level 50 so great that the other zones offer zero challenge whatsoever.

Again, look at this logically. If the content isn't going to change, if a Craglorn boss is going to have the same HP, same armor, same abilities, and same damage in 1.6 then HOW can lvl 50 and VR14 be made the same without everything between Coldharbor and Craglorn becoming pointless/effortless?

If you insist on releveling players in 1.6, that's fine (it's really not), but please explain what that will mean. VR14 is just a number. Level 50 is just a number. 30 Champion points is just a number. It's all meaningless until it's compared along side content.

And logically that is where the whole plan fails.

TLDR:

My concern in one sentence:

IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.

This effectively makes Craglorn and Coldharbor nearly the same. Like the difference between Rivenspire and Alik'r Desert.

Zos, not only have you alienated your community by lying to us to encourage temporary subscriptions ("were tracking XP), and punished players who put in more time, but you have effectively just shrunken your own game. Way to go.

Its been obvious since start, that statement "Play how you want" actualy mean "Play how ZOS want you to play".

With every big update they restrict our freedom even further.
Even those softcap removals are just show off. Most people are missing the point that at the same time ZOS resticting those stat gains and other character characteristics. Most of the buffs will no longer work with each other or one of them will give significantly lesser bonus. Investing more then 10-20 CP into one star will be pointless untill you can afford to invest a full 100 (yet again restricted to how many you can invest).
With every update or ESO Live we recieve a transparent hint that we should dedicate our stat, skill and Champion points evenly. And with each update they try even harder to make us unable to build character how WE want.