The answer to me is simple - there will be no difference between a VR14 & a VR1 after the 1.7 patch. The only difference will be on how CP's are used, and if you think the skills were nerfed/altered to compensate for the name of balance, I have a sneaking suspicion we haven't seen anything yet in regards to CP abilities. This will definitely be a work in progress and a long one at that.

DeLindsay wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

So, where I once was completing content in Craglorn at VR14, I will now be able to complete the same content as a lvl 50 with my 30 champion points.

But if a pre-1.6 version lvl 50 gets the same number of champion points, won't they also be able to hanle the same content as I am, since we are working with the same stats?

Logically, you cannot make lvl 50 and VR14 the same without either lowering the difficulty of Craglorn (and other elite content) OR making the jump from level 49 to level 50 so great that the other zones offer zero challenge whatsoever.

Again, look at this logically. If the content isn't going to change, if a Craglorn boss is going to have the same HP, same armor, same abilities, and same damage in 1.6 then HOW can lvl 50 and VR14 be made the same without everything between Coldharbor and Craglorn becoming pointless/effortless?

If you insist on releveling players in 1.6, that's fine (it's really not), but please explain what that will mean. VR14 is just a number. Level 50 is just a number. 30 Champion points is just a number. It's all meaningless until it's compared along side content.

My concern in one sentence:

IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.[/b]

This effectively makes Craglorn and Coldharbor nearly the same. Like the difference between Rivenspire and Alik'r Desert.

WOW, how can people still not get what the Champion System is? If you seriously think a VR1 (what people call LvL 50's) is going to be capable of jumping straight to Craglorn and solo the whole of it the day 1.6 comes out then, well, I have some prime swamp... I mean real estate to sell you in Florida. VR14's will still have 14 more Attribute points to spend and 14 more Skill points to spend as well as slightly higher in ALL stats than a VR1 when 1.6 launches, same as now. The Champion points will make NO difference between a VR14 and VR1 in their capability the day 1.6 is live, it will be the exact same as it is today with VR14's being a fair bit stronger than VR1's.

How is it that people STILL don't get this? And ROFLMEOW on the Craglorn will be the same as Coldharbour comment.

1.6? No because with 1.6 Vet levels will still exist, when vet levels are removed and EVERYONE is level 50? You implying that my 50 with 30 cp is going to so much better than your noob 50 with 30 cp just because my 50 use to be V14? How does that even make a damn bit of sense? So either I go from being able to do vet dsa at v14 to not being able to do the same thing I already am, or everyone will be able to do. If you don't think that is yet another step in making PvE easier then you're blind.

Gear? Oh great yeah it's gear, how many V14 use crafted sets? Oh sure I have some trial gear but we've already established any lvl 50 with 30 cp is going to be able to go in and do those trials. How is it that people STILL don't get this? Level 50 with 30 cp = level 50 with 30 cp. So either the end game content I am currently doing will be scaled back so that all level 50s with 30 cp can do it OR it'll be upped so that I can no longer do what I am already doing but on top of that I no longer have the content that I originally used to level to V14.

Grind! Grind because I tell you to grind! Grind because that is all that is left! Grind because despite the fact that you have not spent a moment grinding on your main, it's all that remains for it to do! Grind because I say so! Grind even if it is not enjoyable! What's the point in playing a game that's not enjoyable?

You think what when we're de-leveled the 14 attribute points will stay? You're saying that those of us with V14 already will have attribute points that will never ever be available to any other player who isn't V14?

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Kraven wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

So, where I once was completing content in Craglorn at VR14, I will now be able to complete the same content as a lvl 50 with my 30 champion points.

But if a pre-1.6 version lvl 50 gets the same number of champion points, won't they also be able to hanle the same content as I am, since we are working with the same stats?

Logically, you cannot make lvl 50 and VR14 the same without either lowering the difficulty of Craglorn (and other elite content) OR making the jump from level 49 to level 50 so great that the other zones offer zero challenge whatsoever.

Again, look at this logically. If the content isn't going to change, if a Craglorn boss is going to have the same HP, same armor, same abilities, and same damage in 1.6 then HOW can lvl 50 and VR14 be made the same without everything between Coldharbor and Craglorn becoming pointless/effortless?

If you insist on releveling players in 1.6, that's fine (it's really not), but please explain what that will mean. VR14 is just a number. Level 50 is just a number. 30 Champion points is just a number. It's all meaningless until it's compared along side content.

My concern in one sentence:

IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.[/b]

This effectively makes Craglorn and Coldharbor nearly the same. Like the difference between Rivenspire and Alik'r Desert.

WOW, how can people still not get what the Champion System is? If you seriously think a VR1 (what people call LvL 50's) is going to be capable of jumping straight to Craglorn and solo the whole of it the day 1.6 comes out then, well, I have some prime swamp... I mean real estate to sell you in Florida. VR14's will still have 14 more Attribute points to spend and 14 more Skill points to spend as well as slightly higher in ALL stats than a VR1 when 1.6 launches, same as now. The Champion points will make NO difference between a VR14 and VR1 in their capability the day 1.6 is live, it will be the exact same as it is today with VR14's being a fair bit stronger than VR1's.

How is it that people STILL don't get this? And ROFLMEOW on the Craglorn will be the same as Coldharbour comment.

1.6? No because with 1.6 Vet levels will still exist, when vet levels are removed and EVERYONE is level 50? You implying that my 50 with 30 cp is going to so much better than your noob 50 with 30 cp just because my 50 use to be V14? How does that even make a damn bit of sense? So either I go from being able to do vet dsa at v14 to not being able to do the same thing I already am, or everyone will be able to do. If you don't think that is yet another step in making PvE easier then you're blind.

Gear? Oh great yeah it's gear, how many V14 use crafted sets? Oh sure I have some trial gear but we've already established any lvl 50 with 30 cp is going to be able to go in and do those trials. How is it that people STILL don't get this? Level 50 with 30 cp = level 50 with 30 cp. So either the end game content I am currently doing will be scaled back so that all level 50s with 30 cp can do it OR it'll be upped so that I can no longer do what I am already doing but on top of that I no longer have the content that I originally used to level to V14.

Grind! Grind because I tell you to grind! Grind because that is all that is left! Grind because despite the fact that you have not spent a moment grinding on your main, it's all that remains for it to do! Grind because I say so! Grind even if it is not enjoyable! What's the point in playing a game that's not enjoyable?

You think what when we're de-leveled the 14 attribute points will stay? You're saying that those of us with V14 already will have attribute points that will never ever be available to any other player who isn't V14?

How is other people being able to do the same content as you in anyway a bad thing? You want content just for you and your buddies? How about they spend the money you and your buddies give them on content just for you, so practically no content at all.

This whole thing is about making content accessible, how is that so hard to understand?

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

To the point of how can this be possible, in GW1 you capped at lv20 yet they had many zones after lv 20 that still offered a challenge. ESO's not designed this way, but it's possible.

Even though you capped at lv20 enemies would be lv24+. Granted GW1 also ended up giving you npc mercs and the ability to earn customizable mercs(basically).

I'm chill, I'm not too worried about it. Just voicing my concerns like everyone else.

As it stands 1-50 is nothing compared to 50+ content, even after it was dumbed down a couple of times and made easier. 1-50 is a tutorial. 50+ has substantially more content but it's being suggested that all of that content will be completable by everyone who is lvl 50 with 30 cp. 30 out of something like 3600? So if 30 is enough to make my de-leveled V14 exactly the same as it currently is then my alt at V1 will also be exactly the same due to the "making everyone equal". Gear? I've been stockpiling gear sets since they even hinted that vet levels were being removed.

So now all I have to do is 1-50 which flies by after doing it a couple times already and I have a brand new character as equally strong as the V14 I've spent months perfecting. 1-50 can be done in under a week, might as well add that to the skip option you get when creating a new character.

So yeah of course they're not going to give you whatever CP the content after Craglorn is worth if doing the entire game through Craglorn would only give you 30CP under the new system.

They're roughly cutting the VR system in half. That's really all they're doing, making it feel less poop by offering meaningful advancement twice as often, and (possibly) using it as an opportunity to also re-scale the XP math so everything goes faster in general.

Also, in regards to the "but the VR1's can go back and get CP!!!!" CP will be separate from skill points. The VR1's will will have to do that content to get the skill points, they will already have their CP though. They will not gain but one or two CP in that time because at 30 CP nothing they do will be worth a damn for XP towards CP.

For some reason people are pretending quests that grant SP will grant CP directly as rewards which is really stupid and obviously that will not be the case. Last I checked I haven't gained any VR from a single quest reward. If you look at the system changes in the last two patches they're aligned with being prepared for what I think is going down, making questing in the VR zones loosely open up VR levels with normal XP gains without needing to do "Caldwell Silver and Gold."

So yeah I'm still leveling my VR1 since leveling a VR1 Templar is easy and you dumb butts are all gonna have to also if you decide you want those skill points, which you do, because crafting in this game is awesome. Once they get CP in though, nobody will be forced to do that stuff, since they'll have enough skill points to go ahead and play the end-game content with their 30CP character, assuming they can get ahold of gear that is currently comparable to VR10-14 gear.

So the real advice is: save your gold now. If you're VR1 now buy VR14 gear NOW. There are about to be a whole lot of people who want VR14 gear.

Razzak wrote: »

It's not about the day when 1.6 goes live. It's about the day when char who was VR1 the day 1.6 went live, gets to VR14. Since this char was able to get CP from questing, which is not available to old VR14, we think this new VR14 will have more CPs then old VR14.

That's only true if the VR14 sits around and does nothing for weeks while the VR1 is questing. You get CP from anything that gives you exp, like PvP, dailies, etc.

They have to rebalance all of the content because of the stat changes anyway. This is one big reason for how long the update is taking. If you take a look at the screenshots they've posted, you'll see players with 9k HP. So, of course a VR14 and a 50 will have similar stats and be able to complete the same content and everything will be rebalanced with the new stat caps in mind. VR14 and lvl 50 won't make much of a difference. The big reason I see for an extension into 1.7 to complete the champ system is itemization changes. Right now it's kind of a haphazard system with jumps in sets between base levels and various VR level versions, etc. that all have to be balanced and changed with the new systems in mind. That's not small task.

Picture here: http://tamrielfoundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/champion-scaled-stats.jpg

dietlime wrote: »

So yeah of course they're not going to give you whatever CP the content after Craglorn is worth if doing the entire game through Craglorn would only give you 30CP under the new system.

They're roughly cutting the VR system in half. That's really all they're doing, making it feel less poop by offering meaningful advancement twice as often, and (possibly) using it as an opportunity to also re-scale the XP math so everything goes faster in general.

Also, in regards to the "but the VR1's can go back and get CP!!!!" CP will be separate from skill points. The VR1's will will have to do that content to get the skill points, they will already have their CP though. They will not gain but one or two CP in that time because at 30 CP nothing they do will be worth a damn for XP towards CP.

For some reason people are pretending quests that grant SP will grant CP directly as rewards which is really stupid and obviously that will not be the case. Last I checked I haven't gained any VR from a single quest reward. If you look at the system changes in the last two patches they're aligned with being prepared for what I think is going down, making questing in the VR zones loosely open up VR levels with normal XP gains without needing to do "Caldwell Silver and Gold."

So yeah I'm still leveling my VR1 since leveling a VR1 Templar is easy and you dumb butts are all gonna have to also if you decide you want those skill points, which you do, because crafting in this game is awesome. Once they get CP in though, nobody will be forced to do that stuff, since they'll have enough skill points to go ahead and play the end-game content with their 30CP character, assuming they can get ahold of gear that is currently comparable to VR10-14 gear.

So the real advice is: save your gold now. If you're VR1 now buy VR14 gear NOW. There are about to be a whole lot of people who want VR14 gear.

You're making a few inaccurate assumptions.

First CP costs a flat rate, each and every CP from the first to the 3k CP costs a flat rate. The diminishing returns mentioned were on the passives themselves, 1 cp spent in a crit chance passive for example may give 1%, the second only .75%, the third .5%, and the fourth .25%.

Secondly you're assuming that XP and CP are different. They're not, by doing the quests in silver and gold now you get xp, that xp post 1.6 will go toward CP. 100k xp = 1 CP last I heard, this may have changed. So whether I get that 100k from doing the zone quests in silver and gold, which is super fast after the first time, or I get that 100k grinding doesn't matter.

The problem is You at V1 will get both XP toward CP and a skill point but anyone who has already done it doesn't get anything but the skill point. So our options are limited while we're being put on the exact same even field as others who have multiple options. Those of us who have done absolutely every achievement no longer have that multitude of content to do to gain CP we're limited and forced to either grind or roll an alt. Punished for having a main and actually playing the game more than other people.

Kraven wrote: »

The problem is You at V1 will get both XP toward CP and a skill point but anyone who has already done it doesn't get anything but the skill point.

Why are you suddenly not getting exp towards CP just because you're VR14?

If you really think it's going to be easier to get CP as a VR1 than a VR14 (kind of hilarious, given the huge disparity in gear), then roll an alt and get it to VR1. You've already completed all the available content, right? All the achievements, exploration exp, etc.? Then, aside from dailies, what else do you have to do in the game aside from roll an alt?

"But I don't want to roll an alt!" Then do dailies, dungeons, PvP, Craglorn, or grind. They're making exp gain even across the board. All of those are viable options.

"But I don't want to do dailies, dungeons, PvP, Craglorn, or grind!" Then why are you still playing this game if you don't want to do anything in it?

The same old arguments seem to be retooled to fit every new issue. No, if you want to be rewarded for the level of progression you have already achieved that is not being elitist. It is a part of the basic logic and design of the game. It's part of the anticipation-reward system that drives games like this. In fact the reason why ZOS added VR13 and VR14 after announcing that the VR system is being scrapped was because they wanted people to continue to be able to have a sense of being rewarded for their game play and of becoming more powerful.

ZOS decided to make what is now called Veteran content more accessible so they came up with the Championship system as a replacement for the Veteran Ranks system as the method of vertical progression. You won't get the little shield with a number but you will still get more powerful. ZOS would have to be more tone deaf and clueless than even its most ardent critics claim to remove all vertical progression and distinction for existing VR characters after the move is made to make all Veteran characters and gear (at) base level 50, as that would effectively demote everyone who was above VR1 at that time. That is what the OP is concerned will happen.

Clearly given the planned changes to starting amounts of CP, to ultimate generation, etc, this is all a work in progress. Nothing is set in stone and what little was said before about the Championship system has already been revised at least once or twice internally. We therefore have no idea -- none at all -- what the current plan is for retaining a reasonable degree of vertical distinction for existing VR characters at the time of the changeover. Maybe they will do this, maybe they will do that. The most anyone can constructively do is to ask the devs about this topic via the community managers who frequent these forums. But they may not be able to say what is going to happen as this may still be a lively and unsettled topic in design meetings with no final decision yet reached on how to proceed.

Robocles wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

People have two choices.

1. Speculate endlessly on what may or may not happen in the future and post here on the assumption that what they consider to be the worst-case scenario will be the one that ZOS will adopt.

2. Wait for proposed changes to be put on the public test server then play on that server and provide real feedback on the actual changes implemented based on real experiences.

PTS reporting is a colossal waste of time.

Look at any of the last 3 major updates, and you will see every major issue that existed was reported early in the process then ignored. Then they came into the general forums when people were up in arms about the bugs after the update goes live, and they act like they've never heard of it.

This is probably true but at least once it's on PTS people can try it out and see how it is ACTUALLY working. Then, hopefully, the people actually playing the content will come here and report to us. It is kind of useless to speculate until then...but the fact that we ARE speculating I blame on ZOS and their incredibly poor PR on this.