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1.6 ULTIMATE GENERATION, CHANGE IT! WHAT WE KNOW
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Vaelen✭✭✭New ZOS Song:
"Let The Tanks Hit The Floor!"
"Let The Tanks Hit The Floor!"
"Let The Tanks Hit The Flooooooor!!!"
How dare those tanks think they can block 100% of the time and gain ultimate in trials and dungeons from blockcasting skills, how dare they not take any damage when they should get 1-2 shotted like everyone else who doesn't block, they should all be nerfed to hell and die!2 -
Nihil✭✭✭New ZOS Song:
"Let The Tanks Hit The Floor!"
"Let The Tanks Hit The Floor!"
"Let The Tanks Hit The Flooooooor!!!"
How dare those tanks think they can block 100% of the time and gain ultimate in trials and dungeons from blockcasting skills, how dare they not take any damage when they should get 1-2 shotted like everyone else who doesn't block, they should all be nerfed to hell and die!
No offense... but tanks shouldn't be being hit all the time, they could easily drop block for a short while to do a single light attack. Closest time they wouldn't is if they are holding every monster on them, which we already know the game wasn't designed nor balanced behind that concept of tanking (stated by ZOS how tanks are suppose to hold main priority targets and they didn't want AoE taunts).2 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AsweetRoll wrote: »I will reword it for you, hopefully my comment didn't offend you to much..
"It promotes bad BUILDS"
Now let me edit that in.
Of course. That's what happens when you re-balance a game. ZoS looked at the result of their initial balance and aren't happy with the fact that only a few buids are viable and try to make changes to increase the variety, as they always intended it to be.
Champion System should increase build variety allowing more people to be effective Stamina DPSers without any issues, but regarding the magicka DPS builds, it will decrease the variety since now, the only thing people will strife for, is damage and there will only be one combination that is more OP than the others, as always.
Build Diversity is a Myth.
With out seeing all the changes at once this is a very narrow view point to be looking at the future patch. Things we know are coming in 1.6 are, changes to skills (some new skills being added in), changes to buffs (not being able to stack as much as before), provisioning update (meh for this argument), ultimate generation, and champion system. Majority of these changes could add new things that encourage build diversity, one of the examples you gave earlier was sharpen vs precise (I am guessing as you wrote thief). Now say the champion system throws in a passive that works off of crits, like a mini crit surge, instead of focusing on damage players then can choose if they want to work on getting more frequent heals, more damage, bigger heals ext. Sharpen could also be taking a hit in comparison seeing as armor types will now determine spell resistance as well, meaning it will be possible to have a lot lower spell resist then we currently do, weakening the effectiveness of % based penetrations.
Your other statement about this being to fix something in PVP, it is just as possible this was done for more of a PVE perspective. The current state was that if you were in a situation that the enemy spawn adds you could keep up an ultimate non stop. This would make it harder to balance fights and ultimates to keep it engaging and difficult without causing to much problems. Example: With the removal of AOE caps this means that some ultimates will be able to hit multitudes of enemies causing a drastic increase in damage for groups above 6, (with drop off damage) while still providing secondary effects (standard / viel of blades / nova if these aren't changed), but if they gave sorc's negate unlimited targets and still allowed fast generation of ultimate, then any fight with adds would literally become trivial.
As a lot of people I do think this seems a little to simplified, but at the same time having ultimate gain based on damage done/crits/heals done/block doesn't actually promote much better game play as this is all things that players are going to be doing anyways, the ones who mess up mechanics (fail to block a well telegraphed attack and such) will most likely die and thus will still be penalized. I am waiting to see what they do with all the ultimate generating abilities before saying this is broken, as this might lead to some more interesting builds depending on waht they nerf or keep the same ( WW's using their ultimate like players are using flawless dawnbreaker now).
Note:
- I'm not against champion system, I think it will make some classes more viable especially stamina once and for all.
- I'm pro skills/synergies changes.
- Ult regen system change is BS because it's an easy solution to fix many problems that they could have fixed otherwise without penalizing good players/DPSers.
As for build diversity, I don't need to look at the patch to know how this or any other MMORPG ever made works. You can make all the complex systems you want, put 100000 options: There are OP combinations. Once they are found, most of the players (at least the ones raiding end game content), eventually end up using them, because they are OP, because if you don't you're less good & left aside thus bringing the end of story (and build diversity). At least before with the ult regen based on crit, you had a choice between damage and utility. Now it's gonna be DAMAGE.Edited by TehMagnus on December 23, 2014 12:00PM2 -
Vaelen✭✭✭New ZOS Song:
"Let The Tanks Hit The Floor!"
"Let The Tanks Hit The Floor!"
"Let The Tanks Hit The Flooooooor!!!"
How dare those tanks think they can block 100% of the time and gain ultimate in trials and dungeons from blockcasting skills, how dare they not take any damage when they should get 1-2 shotted like everyone else who doesn't block, they should all be nerfed to hell and die!
No offense... but tanks shouldn't be being hit all the time, they could easily drop block for a short while to do a single light attack. Closest time they wouldn't is if they are holding every monster on them, which we already know the game wasn't designed nor balanced behind that concept of tanking (stated by ZOS how tanks are suppose to hold main priority targets and they didn't want AoE taunts).
Like the 3rd Veteran Spindleclutch boss right? The tank isn't supposed to run in the center and try to CC and dps the mob waves, but is supposed to be focused on 1 of the targets (there are 3 subbosses and 1 main boss) while the rest of the group will be getting hit, running, and dying. Is that right?Edited by Vaelen on December 23, 2014 12:01PM4 -
Vaelen✭✭✭In all honesty, ZOS should leave PvE as it is, it doesn't need an overhaul of the ultimate generation system. Just have it so it only applies in PvP, and leave PvE alone for now. If anything, ZOS should be focusing on making tanking more fun and engaging, not make it so you have to now take more damage if you ever want to gain any ultimate for CC, defense, healing, etc.4
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Nihil✭✭✭AsweetRoll wrote: »I will reword it for you, hopefully my comment didn't offend you to much..
"It promotes bad BUILDS"
Now let me edit that in.
Of course. That's what happens when you re-balance a game. ZoS looked at the result of their initial balance and aren't happy with the fact that only a few buids are viable and try to make changes to increase the variety, as they always intended it to be.
Champion System should increase build variety allowing more people to be effective Stamina DPSers without any issues, but regarding the magicka DPS builds, it will decrease the variety since now, the only thing people will strife for, is damage and there will only be one combination that is more OP than the others, as always.
Build Diversity is a Myth.
With out seeing all the changes at once this is a very narrow view point to be looking at the future patch. Things we know are coming in 1.6 are, changes to skills (some new skills being added in), changes to buffs (not being able to stack as much as before), provisioning update (meh for this argument), ultimate generation, and champion system. Majority of these changes could add new things that encourage build diversity, one of the examples you gave earlier was sharpen vs precise (I am guessing as you wrote thief). Now say the champion system throws in a passive that works off of crits, like a mini crit surge, instead of focusing on damage players then can choose if they want to work on getting more frequent heals, more damage, bigger heals ext. Sharpen could also be taking a hit in comparison seeing as armor types will now determine spell resistance as well, meaning it will be possible to have a lot lower spell resist then we currently do, weakening the effectiveness of % based penetrations.
Your other statement about this being to fix something in PVP, it is just as possible this was done for more of a PVE perspective. The current state was that if you were in a situation that the enemy spawn adds you could keep up an ultimate non stop. This would make it harder to balance fights and ultimates to keep it engaging and difficult without causing to much problems. Example: With the removal of AOE caps this means that some ultimates will be able to hit multitudes of enemies causing a drastic increase in damage for groups above 6, (with drop off damage) while still providing secondary effects (standard / viel of blades / nova if these aren't changed), but if they gave sorc's negate unlimited targets and still allowed fast generation of ultimate, then any fight with adds would literally become trivial.
As a lot of people I do think this seems a little to simplified, but at the same time having ultimate gain based on damage done/crits/heals done/block doesn't actually promote much better game play as this is all things that players are going to be doing anyways, the ones who mess up mechanics (fail to block a well telegraphed attack and such) will most likely die and thus will still be penalized. I am waiting to see what they do with all the ultimate generating abilities before saying this is broken, as this might lead to some more interesting builds depending on waht they nerf or keep the same ( WW's using their ultimate like players are using flawless dawnbreaker now).
Note:
- I'm not against champion system, I think it will make some classes more viable especially stamina once and for all.
- I'm pro skills/synergies changes.
- Ult regen system change is BS because it's an easy solution to fix many problems that they could have fixed otherwise without penalizing good players/DPSers.
As for build diversity, I don't need to look at the patch to know how this or any other MMORPG ever made works. You can make all the complex systems you want, put 100000 options: There are OP combinations. Once they are found, most of the players (at least the ones raiding end game content), eventually end up using them, because they are OP, because if you don't you're less good & left aside thus bringing the end of story (and build diversity). At least before with the ult regen based on crit, you had a choice between damage and utility. Now it's gonna be DAMAGE.
It is true there are always going to be OP builds, but sometimes it is really just in the eye of the beholder. People are afraid of the unknown, if players are coming in with builds or play styles that people aren't use to they will automatically be trying to critique it, true there are TONS of bad builds but not all builds that are not taken with are bad. It still will depend on updates that could be associated with this update, we aren't sure if they have figured out what they are doing with CC's that boss' are immune too (developer said they were looking into making it give small buffs or debuffs in an eso live episode). There will always be builds that are preferred / needed to join "X" group. Build diversity comes in when you can play with friends and work with their strengths and weakness, and synergize the builds that you guys play together, and be willing to have some failed runs to test out new concepts.0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
It is true there are always going to be OP builds, but sometimes it is really just in the eye of the beholder. People are afraid of the unknown, if players are coming in with builds or play styles that people aren't use to they will automatically be trying to critique it, true there are TONS of bad builds but not all builds that are not taken with are bad. It still will depend on updates that could be associated with this update, we aren't sure if they have figured out what they are doing with CC's that boss' are immune too (developer said they were looking into making it give small buffs or debuffs in an eso live episode). There will always be builds that are preferred / needed to join "X" group. Build diversity comes in when you can play with friends and work with their strengths and weakness, and synergize the builds that you guys play together, and be willing to have some failed runs to test out new concepts.
This is a non issue really and still leads to no diversity. People who have the skills to develop truly new functional builds can also master the FOTM builds.
Once you're in a PVE guild with good players that know you know your [snip], then they will be open to new things without hesitation because they know you're a good player and that in worst case scenario you will pull bad DPS but still move & act as needed and i best case scenario you improve and your group improves as well. If the test proves to be better than the previous build, then everybody will move to that new build and your guild will be better of. If the test fails, you'll have a good laugh, joke around about the guy being a naab and keep on playing with the current best builds you have.
I'm actually betting on the new synergies, if they trully are stronger and more important than before, it will open room for new strategies where the correct people will have to use the synergies at the correct time in order to maximize effectiveness and clear content, and that is a good thing since there can only be one best build to maximize DPS or Healing output (especially now that ult regen is out of the picture), but there can be many many strategies
. (And I hope ZOS builds around that and stops making fights where we can stack & DPS like they did in VR City Of Ash which is awesome). Edited by TehMagnus on December 23, 2014 2:01PM3 -
AltusVenifus✭✭✭I think I have never agreed more with a post on this forum since I registered.
What ZOS proposed was uncalled for and such a major change that it is almost impossible to fathom how this game will look when they launch 1.6.In end game pve the amount of systems and content they have to balance around this change is massive. I do not expect that the game will be playable at launch in places like Vet dungeons and trials.
I know how it will look. We'll see a whole lot less continuous Batswarm and Veil of Blades Spamming Impulse groups. I can't fathom how this would be considered a bad thing except from those pretty much entrenched in Impulse Spam Bat Swarming Blob running combat...shrug. Go ZoS!
Those Impulse groups will be able to hit n run but they won't have the sustainability they have now. That's a good thing in my book.
Yup.1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Agree here about crit, it creates the setting where you prioritize one thing or another as you say so crit should stay important. Crit also affect light attacks.AsweetRoll wrote: »I will reword it for you, hopefully my comment didn't offend you to much..
"It promotes bad BUILDS"
Now let me edit that in.
Of course. That's what happens when you re-balance a game. ZoS looked at the result of their initial balance and aren't happy with the fact that only a few buids are viable and try to make changes to increase the variety, as they always intended it to be.
Champion System should increase build variety allowing more people to be effective Stamina DPSers without any issues, but regarding the magicka DPS builds, it will decrease the variety since now, the only thing people will strife for, is damage and there will only be one combination that is more OP than the others, as always.
Build Diversity is a Myth.
With out seeing all the changes at once this is a very narrow view point to be looking at the future patch. Things we know are coming in 1.6 are, changes to skills (some new skills being added in), changes to buffs (not being able to stack as much as before), provisioning update (meh for this argument), ultimate generation, and champion system. Majority of these changes could add new things that encourage build diversity, one of the examples you gave earlier was sharpen vs precise (I am guessing as you wrote thief). Now say the champion system throws in a passive that works off of crits, like a mini crit surge, instead of focusing on damage players then can choose if they want to work on getting more frequent heals, more damage, bigger heals ext. Sharpen could also be taking a hit in comparison seeing as armor types will now determine spell resistance as well, meaning it will be possible to have a lot lower spell resist then we currently do, weakening the effectiveness of % based penetrations.
Your other statement about this being to fix something in PVP, it is just as possible this was done for more of a PVE perspective. The current state was that if you were in a situation that the enemy spawn adds you could keep up an ultimate non stop. This would make it harder to balance fights and ultimates to keep it engaging and difficult without causing to much problems. Example: With the removal of AOE caps this means that some ultimates will be able to hit multitudes of enemies causing a drastic increase in damage for groups above 6, (with drop off damage) while still providing secondary effects (standard / viel of blades / nova if these aren't changed), but if they gave sorc's negate unlimited targets and still allowed fast generation of ultimate, then any fight with adds would literally become trivial.
As a lot of people I do think this seems a little to simplified, but at the same time having ultimate gain based on damage done/crits/heals done/block doesn't actually promote much better game play as this is all things that players are going to be doing anyways, the ones who mess up mechanics (fail to block a well telegraphed attack and such) will most likely die and thus will still be penalized. I am waiting to see what they do with all the ultimate generating abilities before saying this is broken, as this might lead to some more interesting builds depending on waht they nerf or keep the same ( WW's using their ultimate like players are using flawless dawnbreaker now).
Note:
- I'm not against champion system, I think it will make some classes more viable especially stamina once and for all.
- I'm pro skills/synergies changes.
- Ult regen system change is BS because it's an easy solution to fix many problems that they could have fixed otherwise without penalizing good players/DPSers.
As for build diversity, I don't need to look at the patch to know how this or any other MMORPG ever made works. You can make all the complex systems you want, put 100000 options: There are OP combinations. Once they are found, most of the players (at least the ones raiding end game content), eventually end up using them, because they are OP, because if you don't you're less good & left aside thus bringing the end of story (and build diversity). At least before with the ult regen based on crit, you had a choice between damage and utility. Now it's gonna be DAMAGE.
AoE should generate more ultimate than single target,
However the current fast ulimate gain by aoe is unbalanced, it will become far more so then the aoe cap in increased to 60. It could create the insane situation where everybody could hold two ultmates up constantly in an large pvp fight.
I would rater increase the gain against single target, then reduce it in AoE both with an cap and by reducing ultimate gain on AoE.
Result you would gain ultimate much faster against single target but would use 2-3 times longer against AOE than today, unless you then build especially for ultimates you would not be able to keep it up all the time.
However an skilled group would have an ultimate rotation anyway.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
Nihil✭✭✭New ZOS Song:
"Let The Tanks Hit The Floor!"
"Let The Tanks Hit The Floor!"
"Let The Tanks Hit The Flooooooor!!!"
How dare those tanks think they can block 100% of the time and gain ultimate in trials and dungeons from blockcasting skills, how dare they not take any damage when they should get 1-2 shotted like everyone else who doesn't block, they should all be nerfed to hell and die!
No offense... but tanks shouldn't be being hit all the time, they could easily drop block for a short while to do a single light attack. Closest time they wouldn't is if they are holding every monster on them, which we already know the game wasn't designed nor balanced behind that concept of tanking (stated by ZOS how tanks are suppose to hold main priority targets and they didn't want AoE taunts).
Like the 3rd Veteran Spindleclutch boss right? The tank isn't supposed to run in the center and try to CC and dps the mob waves, but is supposed to be focused on 1 of the targets (there are 3 subbosses and 1 main boss) while the rest of the group will be getting hit, running, and dying. Is that right?
Even with multiple enemies on you you should be able to time a quick light attack followed by a block, block does not have a cool down so you would literally have a split second without block up if you wanted to work in a light attack. If a dungeon truly doesn't give you that opening then templars might be better at gaining ultimate for that boss fight. They could decide to speck one quick heal and gain ultimate just by healing the dps.
Other games have made changes that was more severe then this (.5 second cool down on block after releasing it, different resource bar which made it so players couldn't perma block) and people found out how to make it work.
Their method of ultimate gain isn't by far what I would of preferred, but it is no where near as detrimental as people are making it out to be...0 -
Nihil✭✭✭
It is true there are always going to be OP builds, but sometimes it is really just in the eye of the beholder. People are afraid of the unknown, if players are coming in with builds or play styles that people aren't use to they will automatically be trying to critique it, true there are TONS of bad builds but not all builds that are not taken with are bad. It still will depend on updates that could be associated with this update, we aren't sure if they have figured out what they are doing with CC's that boss' are immune too (developer said they were looking into making it give small buffs or debuffs in an eso live episode). There will always be builds that are preferred / needed to join "X" group. Build diversity comes in when you can play with friends and work with their strengths and weakness, and synergize the builds that you guys play together, and be willing to have some failed runs to test out new concepts.
This is a non issue really and still leads to no diversity. People who have the skills to develop truly new functional builds can also master the FOTM builds.
Once you're in a PVE guild with good players that know you know your [snip], then they will be open to new things without hesitation because they know you're a good player and that in worst case scenario you will pull bad DPS but still move & act as needed and i best case scenario you improve and your group improves as well. If the test proves to be better than the previous build, then everybody will move to that new build and your guild will be better of. If the test fails, you'll have a good laugh, joke around about the guy being a naab and keep on playing with the current best builds you have.
I'm actually betting on the new synergies, if they trully are stronger and more important than before, it will open room for new strategies where the correct people will have to use the synergies at the correct time in order to maximize effectiveness and clear content, and that is a good thing since there can only be one best build to maximize DPS or Healing output (especially now that ult regen is out of the picture), but there can be many many strategies. (And I hope ZOS builds around that and stops making fights where we can stack & DPS like they did in VR City Of Ash which is awesome).
I really don't see their being that any less diversity after the update then their is now... Right now it is basically spec crit, the gear that gives you the most crit (and possible sustain if needed) is preferred (at least for healing and dps).
For any class their will always be the best build in general, it would lead to the most mathematical advantage, but that doesn't eliminate build diversity. What I meant by "build diversity coming in when you play with your friends" is you can make builds that cater to those players. Back in Aion I made a tank build for my spiritmaster (all be it only useable when I had my tempest summon out) that could tank specific boss' and eliminated the need for a tank at times allowing them to focus more on dps. If I didn't know my healer and work well with her that would never of stood a chance. If I am grouping up with people I don't know well I would never think of bringing a build outside of what is the norm or what I have proven to work by itself without others.
I am all for more interesting mechanics, allowing people to bypass mechanics make for boring fights and ends up being repetitive.0 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This issue isn't just about looking at numbers for me and figuring it out, I'll have to get into pts and see how it all plays out first.
Though I do agree, they change a lot here and I didn't think that much needed changed.
I do like that you can't generate ulti by healing out of combat with this system and that it puts less ulti gen in the hands of crit builds (who already see benefits for crits). But there may be other ways to take advantage of this new system, we'll have to see if it's better/worse or just different.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I've said it in another thread and will say it again: We like mechanics and abilities to make sense ZOS. A light attack giving you some instant nonsensical buff is weird, tedious and illogical. Why not reward skillful play? Better players should be able to gather more ultimate. For every style there can be stuff you can think of to reward them for fullfilling their role.
This is so uncreative its like a slap in the face. And its dumbing down the game as well. Way to go!7 -
Darkrogue671✭✭✭I've said it in another thread and will say it again: We like mechanics and abilities to make sense ZOS. A light attack giving you some instant nonsensical buff is weird, tedious and illogical. Why not reward skillful play? Better players should be able to gather more ultimate. For every style there can be stuff you can think of to reward them for fullfilling their role.
This is so uncreative its like a slap in the face. And its dumbing down the game as well. Way to go!
So, again, how do you define "skillful play"? The items you have? The buffs you got from it? The skill set everybody and their brother/sister or a website told you to get? Again, how does "skill" ever come into play when those give you the ability use your ult every 3-5 seconds or less? I have a 6 year-old who can run in a direction and click a mouse button every 3-5 seconds (or less). That doesn't sound like skill to me at all.
If ZoS is doing their best to get out of the "cookie cutter" builds more power to them. I just don't think they needed to go to these extremes. It's an awful big brush for just a few changes that needed to be done (imo) that I've previously posted in this thread. The focus should be the buffs from equipment, race (vamp for ex) & certain skills that create that unbalance. Gaining ult from using ult is a big one I'm against.I'm actually betting on the new synergies, if they trully are stronger and more important than before, it will open room for new strategies where the correct people will have to use the synergies at the correct time in order to maximize effectiveness and clear content, and that is a good thing since there can only be one best build to maximize DPS or Healing output (especially now that ult regen is out of the picture), but there can be many many strategies. (And I hope ZOS builds around that and stops making fights where we can stack & DPS like they did in VR City Of Ash which is awesome).
And another thing, how exactly do they expect to use timing effectively in synergies when they have laggy servers? I see only frustration and disbelief in that affair.
Fix the lag, then worry about the synergy abilities.Edited by Darkrogue671 on December 23, 2014 6:38PM4 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nobody has even played a single minute with this new system. Why not wait with threads like this until you have actually experienced the changes first hand?5 -
badmojo✭✭✭✭✭
✭AsweetRoll wrote: »So, the ultimate gain is currently a broken system, allowing certain builds to basically spam their ultimates. ZOS attempts to fix this by totally redoing the ultimate gain mechanics, and people cry before even trying it?
Stop being so mad about your ult-gain build being nerfed. That's life.
I had to laugh at this sentence in the OP•It promotes and helps bad players. It makes it so players don't have to focus on AoE based builds and every one pretty much gets the same ultimate.
So, basically you think players are "bad" if they don't build their character around exploiting poorly designed ult gain mechanics? Also, you think it's a bad thing if players all gain ult at "pretty much" the same rate?
Are players who didn't exploit the broken Snipe, batswarm, bolt escape, etc all bad players? Or is it really that YOU are the bad player, relying on the exploitation of broken(or poorly designed) game mechanics? I really don't care, I just think it's funny to label players as bad because they don't activel;y try to exploit the system.
I will reword it for you, hopefully my comment didn't offend you to much..
"It promotes bad BUILDS"
Now let me edit that in.
It didn't offend me in the slightest. I don't judge my worth as a gamer based on some forum posts.
My point was that your "good" builds are based on unbalanced, broken, or badly designed game mechanics. Sure, if the game was always going to stay exactly the same as it is now, then those would be the best builds. But, ESO is an ever evolving and changing game, you can't rely on broken mechanics to make your build good, and then complain that they're getting fixed so bad builds can be viable. They're only bad because other builds are broken.[DC/NA]4 -
prototypefb✭✭✭✭well, current system 6 aoe targets let certain builds pretty much spam Ultimate every few seconds which i bet was never intended by ZOS.
Upcoming 9 target aoe would increase Ulti gain for about 35-45% ish, that would be rly insane( not that it isn't there already)
New system proposed changes are step into right direction, no more Ulti spam: which will lead to vamps being less powerfull, DKs getting resource management back in line with other classes, whick will lead to more balanced pve/pvp, which will lead to few angry players(hopefully not more than few days, till they realize upside) and many happy players, which will lead to better ESO game
(*) (*) (*) (*) (*)6 -
Sanct16✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This change just promotes zerging and will increase the importancy of having numbers. At the moment you can fight bigger numbers with a small group because everyone in your group will generate more ultimate than the enemy players. So you will be able to drop more ultimates/player in a fight. In a 8v16 fight the amount of ultimates your group can drop might match the amount of Ultimates the enemy group can drop. As Ultimates are the strongest skills this helps the smaller group so there is a chance to win the fight although the bigger group is still profiting from their numbers in form of higher damage output from normal skills (impulse etc). With this change however, everyone will get around the same amount of ultimate points so in a 8v16 fights the bigger group will have twice as many ultimates and still a higher damage output. The removal of AoE caps might help a bit but most AOE abilities have small radius so by simple spreading out a bit it will be easy to outplay this problem.
Small groups will have a by far harder time. At the same time its ZOS announced intention to promote smaller groups (6-8 man) as they said in the live stream. So there should be a valid way to kill to kill the bigger group which will be close to impossible probably.
For solo players it will be even harder. At the moment it is possible to gain enough Ultimate in a 1vX (lets say 1v5) to have some sustain if the enemies are playing bad. Now such fights will be nearly impossible to win.
This will especially hit Templars and Dragonknights as they have no way to really escape a battle.
Another issue is that DKs depend on ultimate gain to manage their resources. DK skills are the most expensive skills. And although clueless players act like DKs would have endless resources this is just not the case. True, Dks can sustain well but the same is the case for every other class. However being able to drop an ultimate only every 40-60 seconds will totally wreck the DKs resource management. (And for all little geniuses saying stuff like DK would be on the same resource gain level as other classes. You have no clue about the game).
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]Edited by Sanct16 on December 24, 2014 1:24PM- EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB
>320.000.000 AP5 -
Islyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭AssaultLemming wrote: »Don't forget that this also comes with a nerf to light armor at the same time, so my light armor nightblade who I specifically designed to generate as much ult as possible to act as a support class in dungeons to increase survivability, take out adds and also as my farming toon for craglorn basically becomes non viable.
Nevermind that I spent hundreds of k on his legendary gear, now he will generate ultimate at the same rate as a level 1 templar totally naked.
I could care less about pvp because the PvP system is a joke anyway, and from the start there should have been separate PvP skills and gear. And now yet again the PvE players get the crap nerfed out of us in the interest of balancing a fundamentally broken PvP system.
I suppose we will have to wait until it hits pts to really judge the impact, but on the surface this change looks very badly thought out and just another case of zos changing the fundamentals of the game with no compensation for the affected players.
/endrant
This. 10000000 times this. I am just so bummed - I just got back and releveled my NB (which was a giant pain in the A!) and look. More lameassery in this game
It is like they WANT us to hate it.Member of the Old Guard - Closed Betas 20133 -
Mumyo✭✭✭✭✭SO many [snip] complaining just to complain. This is a good change. And for the record: if you aren't using light attack you are doing it wrong...
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]
Cant agree more.
Im looking forward to some changes. This is a nice opportunity to explore some new stuff and tactics.
People are afraid of changes.6 -
Islyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I cannot help think that every person who says anything like the above is not someone who plays end-game content or who hasn't built and upgraded their gear to achieve certain stats/effects and upgraded it to gold standard, etc.
I do not know about you - but for me - even potentially messing with my whole build because *Why was that again???* (there was never any real answer about this!) tends to make me feel at best, on edge and that ZOS is pretty shady.
I am sure it come down to AvA (this does not mean what you think it means.)
Not all of us PVP all the time or care that some pvp whiners are whining again about some other pvp whiners.
I am so tired already of seeing PVP people moan about other PVP people (I have seen all playstyles put down so far! So HOW is one MEANT to pvp exactly? Seems like however the current poster is doing it and no other way)everywhere that I wish pvp in Cyrodill was just REMOVED from this game.
Well - really I wish people would quit calling everything except what THEY THEMSELVES do spamming/zerging/exploiting whatever and just get over it - but I know better than holding that hope out.Edited by Islyn on December 24, 2014 2:57PMMember of the Old Guard - Closed Betas 20131 -
Sanct16✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What makes you think so? Ultimate gain helps to even out outnumbered fights/trashpulls in dungeons.prototypefb wrote: »well, current system 6 aoe targets let certain builds pretty much spam Ultimate every few seconds which i bet was never intended by ZOS.
Only if people all clumb up on the crown. They could have capped ultimate gain at 6 targets tho.Upcoming 9 target aoe would increase Ulti gain for about 35-45% ish, that would be rly insane( not that it isn't there already)
If you can use the vamp ultimate which lasts 5 seconds once every 50 seconds if will not be less powerful, it will probably be totally useless. Everyone will use werewolf instead for passive ultimate gain. There are no downsides to werewolf so I guess everyone will be werewolf after the next patch. So much variety.New system proposed changes are step into right direction, no more Ulti spam: which will lead to vamps being less powerfull, DKs getting resource management back in line with other classes, whick will lead to more balanced pve/pvp, which will lead to few angry players(hopefully not more than few days, till they realize upside) and many happy players, which will lead to better ESO game
(*) (*) (*) (*) (*)
DKs will have the worst resource managment. With 5 ultimate / second (3 from light attacks + 2 from werewolf) you would be able to drop a banner every 40 seconds. So you get 1.5 banners in one minute. So you will get around 1200 Magicka/Stamina in one minute.
Talons cost 332 Magicka, GDB 353 and Reflect 310. So 332 Magicka cost in average.
Templar: Blazing Shield costs 252 Magicka. This is a difference of 80 Magicka. 1200/80 = 15. I guess everyone will use more than 15 spells in one Minute. Its rather 35 in one minute (if you dont run out of magicka) I assume. So Templar has a better Magicka sustain than DKs. With repentance you also get a lot of Stamina back if people are dead close to you. Probably more than 1200 in one Minute. So Templar has better Stamina management aswell. If you take the other morph you get 80% more Stamina regen which should bring you over 1200 Stamina gain in one minute aswell.
Sorc: Streak with a cost of 250, Volatile Familiar (bugged atm, prolly fixed in 1.6) with a cost of ~180 and curse with a cost of 228. Averagly 220 Magicka. 112 less than DK. 1200/112 = 10,7 cast in one minute.
Nightblade: 288 Sap Essence. Averagly 1,5% Max Stamina/Magicka return with Siphoning Attacks = 36 cost reduce. If you weave with an light attack another 72 cost reduce. When you have multiple enemies on you, you wont drop block tho, so lets just assume you only light attack once every 8 seconds. This gives you 540 Magicka+Stamina in 1 minute. Moreover Nightblade gets a bonus to potions, if you use tristats twice a minute, thats another ~360 Magicka/Stamina.
Sap Essence is 80 Magicka cheaper so to be equal to the Dragonknights resource gain you must not use more than 4 skills in 1 minute.
Nightblade gets 8% more Max Magicka which helps managing resources even more.
I admit that with certain builds especially when fighting brainless trashmob players Battle Roar was OP and made DK resource management superior to other classes. But I had rather seen Templar/Sorc resource management buffed to fit Nightblade/DK.
The 1.6 Dragonknight: no mobility, no range, no gap closer, no resources, no reflect, NO COMPLAINTS ABOUT DKs #fixedDK
You do realize that this change was made for PvE? They said they would not want to force players to use crit builds to gain ultimate which is a 100% pve issue as barely anyone uses critbuilds in pvp and if, just for crit surge and the damage, not for ult gain. Only time you need crit to gain ultimate is on boss mobs.I cannot help think that every person who says anything like the above is not someone who plays end-game content or who hasn't built and upgraded their gear to achieve certain stats/effects and upgraded it to gold standard, etc.
I do not know about you - but for me - even potentially messing with my whole build because *Why was that again???* (there was never any real answer about this!) tends to make me feel at best, on edge and that ZOS is pretty shady.
I am sure it come down to AvA (this does not mean what you think it means.)
Not all of us PVP all the time or care that some pvp whiners are whining again about some other pvp whiners.
I am so tired already of seeing PVP people moan about other PVP people (I have seen all playstyles put down so far! So HOW is one MEANT to pvp exactly? Seems like however the current poster is doing it and no other way)everywhere that I wish pvp in Cyrodill was just REMOVED from this game.
Well - really I wish people would quit calling everything except what THEY THEMSELVES do spamming/zerging/exploiting whatever and just get over it - but I know better than holding that hope out.
Moreover there is no class imbalance in PvP just skill imbalance and players will bad builds/gear expecting to be competitive with players who optimized their builds/gear. So instead of wishing for Cyro removal you should be wishing for pug removal.
- EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB
>320.000.000 AP2 -
You do realize that this change was made for PvE? They said they would not want to force players to use crit builds to gain ultimate which is a 100% pve issue as barely anyone uses critbuilds in pvp and if, just for crit surge and the damage, not for ult gain. Only time you need crit to gain ultimate is on boss mobs.
Moreover there is no class imbalance in PvP just skill imbalance and players will bad builds/gear expecting to be competitive with players who optimized their builds/gear. So instead of wishing for Cyro removal you should be wishing for pug removal.
[/quote]
Actually people use crit atm for generating ultimate. Healing springs and high crit will generate ultimate very quickly. I can see nerfing that. Making it necessary to be in combat for ult generation. Which is completely logical.
However, Making it only viable to generate ult with light and heavy attacks is going to ruin the game. As someone has said sword and board will be at a decisive disadvantage. And with AOE attacks not generating ult anymore many tank builds are basically screwed.
As a tank your only real viable way of doing ANY DPS is AOE attacks and Ultimate. The rest of a tanks skill bar is usually geared towards survival. How does this system make it viable to be able to generate ultimate as a tank?
In a group of people do I stop and hit one guy 50 times to get my ult up? Should I ask the rest of the enemies to hold on a sec for me? Am I being forced to run a resto staff to do light attacks? Am I being forced to play another way? Not mine?
Why is this change even being made? Why change everything around again?
Why make it so people who dont want to make 7 other V14 characters will be penalized in the loss of CP? I want to spend my time in PvP. Not questing or grinding. PvP is why I pay the subscription every month.
Some reassurance that i havent waisted my time and money would be nice.
If I understand the changes correctly PvP might just become very boring.4 -
Malthorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭I really wish ZOS would reconsider the planned changes to ultimate generation. The current system is FUN and REWARDS the player for playing well and optimizing their build. The new system will basically have us using an addon to track when to precisely use the next light attack.
For those that choose not to use a light attack(buff tracker?) addon, I wish you the best. Good luck counting 1 one thousand, 2 one thousand....etc... in high pressure situations where AOE DPS is needed.
Sounds like a blast ....
I hope I'm wrong, but I think this change will not be good for ESO9 -
Nihil✭✭✭
Talons cost 332 Magicka, GDB 353 and Reflect 310. So 332 Magicka cost in average.
Sorc: Streak with a cost of 250, Volatile Familiar (bugged atm, prolly fixed in 1.6) with a cost of ~180 and curse with a cost of 228. Averagly 220 Magicka. 112 less than DK. 1200/112 = 10,7 cast in one minute.
This section (as I mainly know sorcs wont comment on the other 2 ) is a little misleading. You use streak as an example that if used multiple times in a row increases the cost, and thus not the greatest of a consistant example. Volitle Familiar you are counting in one of our passives that gives back mana on return. Curse you are comparing one of our low cost damaging moves without even mentioning yours (flame lash is 222, does slightly less damage but can heal while curse does do aoe it is also on a delay and only one curse can be active on a target at a time limiting its spammability or usefulness with multiple sorcs). I could do the same and make sorcs costs look cheap. Compare Igneious weapon (222) to crit surge (359) or talons (332) to shattering prison (392).
For your comparison you have used 3 of the sorcs passives (10 % off storm calling, 5 % off all stamina / magicka abilities, and 15 % return when a summon is desummoned, and you will probably mention our 10 % magicka regen) without even going into the passives of the DK (which you gain something for losing the cost reduction the sorcs get). You have a passive that returns 5 % stamina when using earthern heart abilities (50 stamina for if you use igneious weapon or obsidian shield figuring at 1000 stamina, and also gives 2 ultimate which isn't much but maybe with the improved skills will be a better passive once 1.6 hits if it isn't changed much) when gdb is active your stamina regen goes up by 30 % (raises 18 points with only 60 stamina regen). You do have battle roar which gives back some stamina, magicka, and health, even at a longer wait between casts is a nice bonus. So making yourself out to be really hard on resources compared to at least sorcs is kind of streching it. While you aren't as magical sustaining as sorcs your stamina sustain is considerably higher and you still do have some synergies with your passives that sorcs could only wish for (looking at you daedric summoning tree).Edited by Nihil on December 24, 2014 11:16PM1 -
Sanct16✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Well of course it is impossible to take every single passive into account.
Talons cost 332 Magicka, GDB 353 and Reflect 310. So 332 Magicka cost in average.
Sorc: Streak with a cost of 250, Volatile Familiar (bugged atm, prolly fixed in 1.6) with a cost of ~180 and curse with a cost of 228. Averagly 220 Magicka. 112 less than DK. 1200/112 = 10,7 cast in one minute.
This section (as I mainly know sorcs wont comment on the other 2 ) is a little misleading. You use streak as an example that if used multiple times in a row increases the cost, and thus not the greatest of a consistant example. Volitle Familiar you are counting in one of our passives that gives back mana on return. Curse you are comparing one of our low cost damaging moves without even mentioning yours (flame lash is 222, does slightly less damage but can heal while curse does do aoe it is also on a delay and only one curse can be active on a target at a time limiting its spammability or usefulness with multiple sorcs). I could do the same and make sorcs costs look cheap. Compare Igneious weapon (222) to crit surge (359) or talons (332) to shattering prison (392).
For your comparison you have used 3 of the sorcs passives (10 % off storm calling, 5 % off all stamina / magicka abilities, and 15 % return when a summon is desummoned, and you will probably mention our 10 % magicka regen) without even going into the passives of the DK (which you gain something for losing the cost reduction the sorcs get). You have a passive that returns 5 % stamina when using earthern heart abilities (50 stamina for if you use igneious weapon or obsidian shield figuring at 1000 stamina, and also gives 2 ultimate which isn't much but maybe with the improved skills will be a better passive once 1.6 hits if it isn't changed much) when gdb is active your stamina regen goes up by 30 % (raises 18 points with only 60 stamina regen). You do have battle roar which gives back some stamina, magicka, and health, even at a longer wait between casts is a nice bonus. So making yourself out to be really hard on resources compared to at least sorcs is kind of streching it. While you aren't as magical sustaining as sorcs your stamina sustain is considerably higher and you still do have some synergies with your passives that sorcs could only wish for (looking at you daedric summoning tree).
In order to avoid the cost increase of Streak you don't spam it, thats why I mentioned 2 other skills to rotate with. You can use Lighting Flood instead of Curse too if you don't like Curse. And why shouldn't I count passives in that directly reduce the cost of your abilties? Some sorc skills might be expensive but there are only 10 skillslots anyway, so just dont use the ones that are too expensive.
Stamina managment is better with DK for sure, but on the other hand Magicka is the more important resource for an Magicka build. So lets say you cast 30 spells in 1 minute. That would be around 3k Magicka what the sorc pays less while the DK gets only 1.2k from Battle Roar. Helping Hands passive is nice but Earthen Heart skills aren't anything you spam, more like you apply it on cooldown so I would say sorc resource managment is better overall.
And why do you think that it is a good change?good change IMO. Get over it and adapt ladies.
- EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB
>320.000.000 AP2 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I really wish ZOS would reconsider the planned changes to ultimate generation. The current system is FUN and REWARDS the player for playing well and optimizing their build. The new system will basically have us using an addon to track when to precisely use the next light attack.
For those that choose not to use a light attack(buff tracker?) addon, I wish you the best. Good luck counting 1 one thousand, 2 one thousand....etc... in high pressure situations where AOE DPS is needed.
Sounds like a blast ....
I hope I'm wrong, but I think this change will not be good for ESO
This ^^ @ZOS_GinaBruno
I never complained and always went forward with your changes but this is plain ridiculous.
Yes, ultimate generation needs changing and yes it needs to be more balanced so some can get better ultimate gen such as tanks. But forcing people to us light attacks to do so is plain dumb.
What about AoE situations? Why on earth do we need to use single target light attacks in AeO situations? There is just no logic.
And even worse, why does everyone need to generate ultimate at the same rate? If I play better than the next guy, I expect more ultimate for my better participation.
ZOS, fix ultimate generation, don't screw it!4 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭They dont care about serious players...and def not serious PvE people. Its all about casual players. We dont matter2
