1.6 ULTIMATE GENERATION, CHANGE IT! WHAT WE KNOW

TehMagnus · December 2014

Muizer wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Only people this helps is bad players by putting them at the same level as good players who had crafted their builds to regen ultimate fast.

Is it so difficult to accept that ZoS never intended the disparity between builds to be as big as it is?

Because you think this will make a difference regarding the builds? xD Sharpened deals more dmg than thief, this only means that everybody still using thief will def switch to sharpened. GG. As for people who had high crit to regen ult, they'll just switch to more spell dmg most likely thus diminishing the build diversity.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · December 2014

I think thr only really game breaking part of the new system is that it is light/heavy attacks. They really try to force people to use them.

AshySamurai · December 2014

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

I think thr only really game breaking part of the new system is that it is light/heavy attacks. They really try to force people to use them.

Well, IMO it isn't so bad to use light/heavy attack. Gain ult mostly through light/heavy might be not so elegant, but it works.

Slurg · December 2014

What is the point of holding the weapons if you're not ever going to attack with them? Are they there for looks?

Oh crap I just realized the reason I'm not OP under the current game mechanics and even die from time to time. I actually use my weapons!

Draxys · December 2014

This change is completely unnecessary in my opinion. Should healing to regen ult out of combat be a thing? No, but this change is not required to fix that. Should aoe ult gen be toned down? Yes, and again, I don't think this change is needed to help with that. Should tanking ult gen get some love? Absolutely, and this doesn't seem like a good answer to it. All of the issues with ultimates could be solved differently- when you're out of combat, you can't regen ult, whether through healing or the DK earthen heart ability. Cap ult gen on AoE abilities. Give the proposed ultimate buff to tanks in the form of maybe a taunt buff- when you successfully block an attack by a taunted enemy, gain ult over 8 seconds or something (yea I can see that being exploited in PvP, but something like it.)

There are better solutions than leveling the playing field. Any game I've ever played that tries to level the playing field sucks.

Draxys · December 2014

Slurg wrote: »

What is the point of holding the weapons if you're not ever going to attack with them? Are they there for looks?

Oh crap I just realized the reason I'm not OP under the current game mechanics and even die from time to time. I actually use my weapons!

Um maybe because they are slow and not great damage? Maybe the enchants are useful sometimes, but outside of light attack weaving, you're probably going to want more than just weapon attacks to take down a boss with 300k+ health.

Joy_Division · December 2014

Slurg wrote: »

Does this mean people will no longer have an excuse to spam spells repeatedly at banks and crafting stations "to generate ultimate" like they always say when others call them out for being a jerk?

FYI, I spam spells at banks and crafting stations because it's a harmless mischievous act in a game whose ultimate purpose is to have fun.

Draxys · December 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Only people this helps is bad players by putting them at the same level as good players who had crafted their builds to regen ultimate fast.

Is it so difficult to accept that ZoS never intended the disparity between builds to be as big as it is?

Because you think this will make a difference regarding the builds? xD Sharpened deals more dmg than thief, this only means that everybody still using thief will def switch to sharpened. GG. As for people who had high crit to regen ult, they'll just switch to more spell dmg most likely thus diminishing the build diversity.

This is a good point as well. Just as we started to see some diversity in dps builds, this change seems like it will be a bottleneck.

Slurg · December 2014

Draxys wrote: »

Um maybe because they are slow and not great damage? Maybe the enchants are useful sometimes, but outside of light attack weaving, you're probably going to want more than just weapon attacks to take down a boss with 300k+ health.

Well yeah I use more than just the weapons! But people are making it sound like actually using the weapons we carry is completely laughable so the fact that I use them at all (in between spells) puts me in the minority.

I guess that explains a lot of the rage about the change in ultimate gen, which I don't see as a big deal.

zaria · December 2014

Draxys wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Only people this helps is bad players by putting them at the same level as good players who had crafted their builds to regen ultimate fast.

Is it so difficult to accept that ZoS never intended the disparity between builds to be as big as it is?

Because you think this will make a difference regarding the builds? xD Sharpened deals more dmg than thief, this only means that everybody still using thief will def switch to sharpened. GG. As for people who had high crit to regen ult, they'll just switch to more spell dmg most likely thus diminishing the build diversity.

This is a good point as well. Just as we started to see some diversity in dps builds, this change seems like it will be a bottleneck.

More people should cast rapid maneuver the speed buff is an nice gift.

Muizer · December 2014

Draxys wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

What is the point of holding the weapons if you're not ever going to attack with them? Are they there for looks?

Oh crap I just realized the reason I'm not OP under the current game mechanics and even die from time to time. I actually use my weapons!

Um maybe because they are slow and not great damage? Maybe the enchants are useful sometimes, but outside of light attack weaving, you're probably going to want more than just weapon attacks to take down a boss with 300k+ health.

Good example of how this discussing is moving in circles. One group of people argue that what ZoS put in the game isn't properly balanced because "why would they have put it in the game if it wasn't useful", another that argues ZoS intentionally put a ton of underpowered/superfluous crap into the game knowingly and people that don't pick up on that are just bad players.

Darkrogue671 · December 2014

ZoS made a decision and no one can change it. Just going to have to find a way to deal with it. Since everyone is throwing their opinions around, I have no idea why they just didn't leave the current system in place and make a couple of adjustments, like, no Ult gain off of using your ult and everyone has the SAME ult cost, period. No buffs on ult gain from armor or items or race or class. Only on specific skills can you get a slight buff on ult gain like they have now. Throw in a short cooldown on the blocking ult gain and no more farming ult while you block & walk and I don't see what the problem is.

And if you want a broken mechanic, how is it that I can't block and do a light attack at the same time, yet I can block and do skills & ults all day simultaneously, all the while gaining more ult.... now that's just plain wrong.

Rune_Relic · December 2014

Vizier wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I think I have never agreed more with a post on this forum since I registered.

What ZOS proposed was uncalled for and such a major change that it is almost impossible to fathom how this game will look when they launch 1.6.In end game pve the amount of systems and content they have to balance around this change is massive. I do not expect that the game will be playable at launch in places like Vet dungeons and trials.

I know how it will look. We'll see a whole lot less continuous Batswarm and Veil of Blades Spamming Impulse groups. I can't fathom how this would be considered a bad thing except from those pretty much entrenched in Impulse Spam Bat Swarming Blob running combat...shrug. Go ZoS!

Those Impulse groups will be able to hit n run but they won't have the sustainability they have now. That's a good thing in my book.

I gave you an awesome.

IMHO ulti was supposed to be bonus damage.
NOT the be all and end all of peoples builds to the extent of 100% uptime.
When the only reason you are using other skills is to fill your ultimate bar, the whole of the rest of combat skills becomes superfluous.
The game has become a battle of who can build ultimate fastest instead of fighting each other with light, heavy, skill attacks.

SRIBES · December 2014

I feel like werewolf will be hit hard with this patch.

yodased · December 2014

Well, there have been hundreds of posts about people complaining about ultimate generation and the issues that causes.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/search?Search=ultimate+gain

There have been a couple of people on here that have been pointing out the problem has not been with AOE caps and skills, rather its the speed of which ultimates are generated for many months, but I can see how you may have overlooked them.

PBpsy · December 2014

Another thing that I dislike is that even if we somehow reach the somewhat ridiculous conclusion that a tank should generate as much ultimate as a dps spec built for ultimate generation the solution is much simpler.
Bracing -Decrease Stamina cost of blocking by 10/20% when wearing a heavy armor set of 5 or more is equipped.
-on successful block grant Awesome sauce tanking buff . The buff grants 1/2 ultimate every 2 seconds for 10seconds.Effect can trigger once every 15 second
Battle Field Awesomeness-With 1h weapon and shield equipped.
-increased movement speed while blocking.
-successful blocking grants I like turtles buff, The buff grants 1/2 ultimate every 2 seconds for 10seconds.Effect can trigger once every 15 second .

nukeemstudiosub17_ESO · December 2014

It is not overall ult generation that was the problem.
It was out of combat ult generation. Thats all that needed fixing. And the AOE cap was a fine idea. But the rest?? This has the makings of a suck fest!
At least from what it sounds like. SO many other problems are out there.

Vizier · December 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I think I have never agreed more with a post on this forum since I registered.

What ZOS proposed was uncalled for and such a major change that it is almost impossible to fathom how this game will look when they launch 1.6.In end game pve the amount of systems and content they have to balance around this change is massive. I do not expect that the game will be playable at launch in places like Vet dungeons and trials.

I know how it will look. We'll see a whole lot less continuous Batswarm and Veil of Blades Spamming Impulse groups. I can't fathom how this would be considered a bad thing except from those pretty much entrenched in Impulse Spam Bat Swarming Blob running combat...shrug. Go ZoS!

Those Impulse groups will be able to hit n run but they won't have the sustainability they have now. That's a good thing in my book.

Another PVPer that thinks that all the game systems should be balanced around the fact that they couldn't get out of the way of the huge AoE spamming zerg.
Awesome

Of course.

PvE matters this [_____] much.
PvP matters this [______________________________] much. Shrug.

PvP is where class balance matters most and will almost always be the primary consideration when changes are made to skills and classes. PvP is the most competitive aspect of the game. Get used to it.

themizario · December 2014

I wonder what this will do to the Alliance War passive Battle Fenzy? They will probably end up nerfing that too.

Anyone else feel like 1.6 should be renamed to Dead Game? It's going to be a ghost town after people try it and hate it...If it's not, then I'm super happy. I really enjoy this game, I'll be one of the last to leave.

SRIBES · December 2014

themizario wrote: »

I wonder what this will do to the Alliance War passive Battle Fenzy? They will probably end up nerfing that too.

Anyone else feel like 1.6 should be renamed to Dead Game? It's going to be a ghost town after people try it and hate it...If it's not, then I'm super happy. I really enjoy this game, I'll be one of the last to leave.

This^

AssaultLemming · December 2014

Don't forget that this also comes with a nerf to light armor at the same time, so my light armor nightblade who I specifically designed to generate as much ult as possible to act as a support class in dungeons to increase survivability, take out adds and also as my farming toon for craglorn basically becomes non viable.

Nevermind that I spent hundreds of k on his legendary gear, now he will generate ultimate at the same rate as a level 1 templar totally naked.

I could care less about pvp because the PvP system is a joke anyway, and from the start there should have been separate PvP skills and gear. And now yet again the PvE players get the crap nerfed out of us in the interest of balancing a fundamentally broken PvP system.

I suppose we will have to wait until it hits pts to really judge the impact, but on the surface this change looks very badly thought out and just another case of zos changing the fundamentals of the game with no compensation for the affected players.

/endrant

badmojo · December 2014

So, the ultimate gain is currently a broken system, allowing certain builds to basically spam their ultimates. ZOS attempts to fix this by totally redoing the ultimate gain mechanics, and people cry before even trying it?

Stop being so mad about your ult-gain build being nerfed. That's life.

I had to laugh at this sentence in the OP

•It promotes and helps bad players. It makes it so players don't have to focus on AoE based builds and every one pretty much gets the same ultimate.

So, basically you think players are "bad" if they don't build their character around exploiting poorly designed ult gain mechanics? Also, you think it's a bad thing if players all gain ult at "pretty much" the same rate?

Are players who didn't exploit the broken Snipe, batswarm, bolt escape, etc all bad players? Or is it really that YOU are the bad player, relying on the exploitation of broken(or poorly designed) game mechanics? I really don't care, I just think it's funny to label players as bad because they don't activel;y try to exploit the system.

SRIBES · December 2014

badmojo wrote: »

So, the ultimate gain is currently a broken system, allowing certain builds to basically spam their ultimates. ZOS attempts to fix this by totally redoing the ultimate gain mechanics, and people cry before even trying it?

Stop being so mad about your ult-gain build being nerfed. That's life.

I had to laugh at this sentence in the OP

•It promotes and helps bad players. It makes it so players don't have to focus on AoE based builds and every one pretty much gets the same ultimate.

So, basically you think players are "bad" if they don't build their character around exploiting poorly designed ult gain mechanics? Also, you think it's a bad thing if players all gain ult at "pretty much" the same rate?

Are players who didn't exploit the broken Snipe, batswarm, bolt escape, etc all bad players? Or is it really that YOU are the bad player, relying on the exploitation of broken(or poorly designed) game mechanics? I really don't care, I just think it's funny to label players as bad because they don't activel;y try to exploit the system.

I will reword it for you, hopefully my comment didn't offend you to much..
"It promotes bad BUILDS"
Now let me edit that in.

Muizer · December 2014

AsweetRoll wrote: »

I will reword it for you, hopefully my comment didn't offend you to much..
"It promotes bad BUILDS"
Now let me edit that in.

Of course. That's what happens when you re-balance a game. ZoS looked at the result of their initial balance and aren't happy with the fact that only a few buids are viable and try to make changes to increase the variety, as they always intended it to be.

TehMagnus · December 2014

Muizer wrote: »

AsweetRoll wrote: »

I will reword it for you, hopefully my comment didn't offend you to much..
"It promotes bad BUILDS"
Now let me edit that in.

Of course. That's what happens when you re-balance a game. ZoS looked at the result of their initial balance and aren't happy with the fact that only a few buids are viable and try to make changes to increase the variety, as they always intended it to be.

Champion System should increase build variety allowing more people to be effective Stamina DPSers without any issues, but regarding the magicka DPS builds, it will decrease the variety since now, the only thing people will strife for, is damage and there will only be one combination that is more OP than the others, as always.

Build Diversity is a Myth.

zaria · December 2014

Vizier wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I think I have never agreed more with a post on this forum since I registered.

What ZOS proposed was uncalled for and such a major change that it is almost impossible to fathom how this game will look when they launch 1.6.In end game pve the amount of systems and content they have to balance around this change is massive. I do not expect that the game will be playable at launch in places like Vet dungeons and trials.

I know how it will look. We'll see a whole lot less continuous Batswarm and Veil of Blades Spamming Impulse groups. I can't fathom how this would be considered a bad thing except from those pretty much entrenched in Impulse Spam Bat Swarming Blob running combat...shrug. Go ZoS!

Those Impulse groups will be able to hit n run but they won't have the sustainability they have now. That's a good thing in my book.

Another PVPer that thinks that all the game systems should be balanced around the fact that they couldn't get out of the way of the huge AoE spamming zerg.
Awesome

Of course.

PvE matters this [_____] much.
PvP matters this [______________________________] much. Shrug.

PvP is where class balance matters most and will almost always be the primary consideration when changes are made to skills and classes. PvP is the most competitive aspect of the game. Get used to it.

Not that I don't agree with you but if true where is the giant DK nerf

You know that the real problem with arena based PvP is that it will force the game into balance around it as its so easy to see who is winning an loosing.

Vanzen · December 2014

I never use light attack exept with bow. Its counterintuitive, boring, tiring, animations suck, and canceling is borderline cheating. Am I a bad player ? My best pvp kill streak is 141, roaming solo, no bow, no snipe ... Btw, with this méthod of generating ulti, no one yet noticed that it gives a huge disadvantage to melee player compared to range (staff, bow) ?

Welka · December 2014

c0rp wrote: »

SO many [snip] complaining just to complain. This is a good change. And for the record: if you aren't using light attack you are doing it wrong...

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

How does a single target light attack fit when you're fighting a pack of mobs and using AeO abilities?
It doesn't and doesn't make sense. Make it so you generate ultimate with any kind of attack/heal/block while in combat.

Or someone please create an addon quick to help keep track of ultimate generation.
It's bad enough as it is to keep track of your buff, no we have to keep track of this as well...

I like that they change it to balance it and make it feel more "ultimate" but please don't make us have to think about squizzing a light attack every 8s. Ultimate should generate naturally during combat, and somehow still be dependant on how good you are.

With the new changes, no matter how good you are at DPS/heal/tank, you'll generate exactly the same amount of ultimate. Bad decision I think

Nihil · December 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

AsweetRoll wrote: »

I will reword it for you, hopefully my comment didn't offend you to much..
"It promotes bad BUILDS"
Now let me edit that in.

Of course. That's what happens when you re-balance a game. ZoS looked at the result of their initial balance and aren't happy with the fact that only a few buids are viable and try to make changes to increase the variety, as they always intended it to be.

Champion System should increase build variety allowing more people to be effective Stamina DPSers without any issues, but regarding the magicka DPS builds, it will decrease the variety since now, the only thing people will strife for, is damage and there will only be one combination that is more OP than the others, as always.

Build Diversity is a Myth.

With out seeing all the changes at once this is a very narrow view point to be looking at the future patch. Things we know are coming in 1.6 are, changes to skills (some new skills being added in), changes to buffs (not being able to stack as much as before), provisioning update (meh for this argument), ultimate generation, and champion system. Majority of these changes could add new things that encourage build diversity, one of the examples you gave earlier was sharpen vs precise (I am guessing as you wrote thief). Now say the champion system throws in a passive that works off of crits, like a mini crit surge, instead of focusing on damage players then can choose if they want to work on getting more frequent heals, more damage, bigger heals ext. Sharpen could also be taking a hit in comparison seeing as armor types will now determine spell resistance as well, meaning it will be possible to have a lot lower spell resist then we currently do, weakening the effectiveness of % based penetrations.

Your other statement about this being to fix something in PVP, it is just as possible this was done for more of a PVE perspective. The current state was that if you were in a situation that the enemy spawn adds you could keep up an ultimate non stop. This would make it harder to balance fights and ultimates to keep it engaging and difficult without causing to much problems. Example: With the removal of AOE caps this means that some ultimates will be able to hit multitudes of enemies causing a drastic increase in damage for groups above 6, (with drop off damage) while still providing secondary effects (standard / viel of blades / nova if these aren't changed), but if they gave sorc's negate unlimited targets and still allowed fast generation of ultimate, then any fight with adds would literally become trivial.

As a lot of people I do think this seems a little to simplified, but at the same time having ultimate gain based on damage done/crits/heals done/block doesn't actually promote much better game play as this is all things that players are going to be doing anyways, the ones who mess up mechanics (fail to block a well telegraphed attack and such) will most likely die and thus will still be penalized. I am waiting to see what they do with all the ultimate generating abilities before saying this is broken, as this might lead to some more interesting builds depending on waht they nerf or keep the same ( WW's using their ultimate like players are using flawless dawnbreaker now).

Xsorus · December 2014

I think people are over reacting simply because the entire game is changing in 1.6.... Basing current mechanics off it is pointless