1.6 ULTIMATE GENERATION, CHANGE IT! WHAT WE KNOW

SRIBES · December 2014

Most of you that watched ESO live probably know that ultimate is changing in 1.6. For those of you that don't know here is what is changing.
• You now only gain ultimate from doing light attacks, you will gain 3 ultimate per second over 8 seconds then you will have to reapply the light attack to continue to gain ultimate. People that heal another player that did an auto attack recently will also gain 3 ultimate every second for 8 seconds. These do not stack.
•Skills like carve or the NBs passive that generate ultimate will not provide a buff instead of giving you ultimate. Here is an example (not confirmed numbers) Activating carve increases the ultimate you gain over 8 seconds. Does not stack with other passives.
•Passives like combat frenzy or the werewolf passive will be changed to make sure players don't take advantage of the new ultimate system.
•**No comment was made on sets but it can be inferred that things like blood spawn or the werewolf set will change.**
*IF YOU'RE WONDERING WHERE I GOT SOME OF THIS INFORMATION: It is from ESO live and some of it is from Erlexx who is a member of entropy rising and he mentioned several of these changed and answered questions about it this morning*

Why these changes are a bad idea:
•It makes combat and ultimate almost like a CHORE you have to use light attacks every 8 seconds to continue to gain ultimate and you acquire it over a long period of time. Gaining ultimate should be an incentive not a chore.
•Most players that want to be competetive in groups will be FORCED to use a healing skill to make sure they accumulate ultimate as fast as they can.
•I don't ever recall players crying on the forums about the ultimate generation system, so why change it?
•It promotes and helps bad builds. It makes it so players don't have to focus on AoE based builds and every one pretty much gets the same ultimate. ZOS is adjusting the AoE caps, but the main point of AoEs were to generate ultimate at least that's how my build was based unless they were a glass cannon AoE DPS.
•It will hit werewolf really hard... (EDIT)

ZOS claimed on ESO live that ultimate mechanics are to complicated in the current state (I say LOL to that) here's what I know about how ultimate works.

“any” critical hit/heal/dot tick (no matter what dmg/heal amount) = 1 Ultimate
“any” damage/heal greater than 1% and lower than 5% of target’s max. HP = 1 Ultimate
“any” additional 4% of damage dealt, after the first 1% = 1 additional Ultimate
“any” additional 6% of healing done, after the first 1% = 1 additional Ultimate
Ultimate skills, can not generate Ultimate points, not even with critical hits

Proposed Idea:
•Since AoE caps are being removed to some degree I think it would be nice to see ultimate have a factor in AoE caps as it should. New AoE cap information:
The cap is being raised from 6 to 60.
The first 6 targets will receive 100% damage.
The next 24 targets will receive 50% damage.
The final 30 targets will receive 25% damage.
•Why doesn't ZOS just make it so the next 24 targets give you 50% less ultimate? The next 30 targets give you 75% less ultimate on AoE damage?
•ZOS claimed this change was mainly being added in to make it so tanks can be viable and have a better way of generating ultimate (I think that's BS since I run dailies and see tons of WW+Blood Spawn tanks). They should focus on adding a heavy armor passive to help tanks in 7/7 Heavy gain X ultimate for every time they are damaged.
•OR maybe ZOS could make it so the light attack buff stacks..

Please feel free to discuss.

kongkim · December 2014

Way are you yelling?

PBpsy · December 2014

I think I have never agreed more with a post on this forum since I registered.

What ZOS proposed was uncalled for and such a major change that it is almost impossible to fathom how this game will look when they launch 1.6.In end game pve the amount of systems and content they have to balance around this change is massive. I do not expect that the game will be playable at launch in places like Vet dungeons and trials.

AshySamurai · December 2014

Activating carve increases the ultimate you gain over 8 seconds

I think ZOS said exactly the opposite. You have 8 sec buff and you cal use Carve or other skill to get addition Ult (carve now give you 2 Ult for every enemy you hit).

aco5712 · December 2014

this will make zergs the be all and end all really. This change is gonna suck so much.

Valnas · December 2014

please listen. The idea that the current system is too complicated is kind of insulting honestly. This new proposed system is so carebare and game altering I can't understand it. Why not just curb out of combat healing ulti gain ?

Dazin93 · December 2014

AsweetRoll wrote: »

Why these changes are a bad idea:
•It makes combat and ultimate almost like a CHORE you have to use light attacks every 8 seconds to continue to gain ultimate and you acquire it over a long period of time. Gaining ultimate should be an incentive not a chore.
•Most players that want to be competetive in groups will be FORCED to use a healing skill to make sure they accumulate ultimate as fast as they can.
•I don't ever recall players crying on the forums about the ultimate generation system, so why change it?
•It promotes and helps bad players. It makes it so players don't have to focus on AoE based builds and every one pretty much gets the same ultimate. ZOS is adjusting the AoE caps, but the main point of AoEs were to generate ultimate at least that's how my build was based unless they were a glass cannon AoE DPS.

•Why doesn't ZOS just make it so the next 24 targets give you 50% less ultimate? The next 30 targets give you 75% less ultimate on AoE damage?

I have a different perspective and think that the change will have a positive effect on gameplay; especially pvp.

You state it's a chore to use a light or heavy attack once every 8 seconds yet most skilled players are using attacks and weaving attacks/animation canceling almost constantly when on the offensive. What this does do, is force a player to go on the offensive to a certain extent instead of hiding behind broken blocking mechanics while building ultimate at the same time.

Healers will gain the same ultimate buff as those attacking, so I don't understand why you think healers will build ultimate faster. If anything, players will have more build variety and won't be forced into as many resto staff builds as they are currently.

Obviously, how ultimate generation currently works doesn't meet the intent or vision of what ZoS had planned or they wouldn't be changing it. They are operating at what I would term a strategic level and making decisions based on data and metrics that you or I just don't have access to or are even aware of. Just because somebody isn't complaining doesn't mean that there isn't a problem.

You stated that it makes it so players don't have to focus on aoe builds and I agree, yet again see this as a positive for viable build diversity. What is the skill in spamming aoe abilities non-stop? Maybe running around in a group spamming aoe's, hitting x occasionally for synergies, and just dropping ultimates almost nonstop is your definition of skill, but to me it's just indicative of organization and takes no more skill that any other tactic or strategy.

Finally, I think many people are already concerned with the effect that the aoe calculations will have on game performance and to add another calculation may not even be feasible. 1.6 is going to force many of us to reconsider our builds and perhaps even change our play styles, but in the end if classes and abilities are better balanced than they are now then it's the right thing to do.

Vizier · December 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

I think I have never agreed more with a post on this forum since I registered.

What ZOS proposed was uncalled for and such a major change that it is almost impossible to fathom how this game will look when they launch 1.6.In end game pve the amount of systems and content they have to balance around this change is massive. I do not expect that the game will be playable at launch in places like Vet dungeons and trials.

I know how it will look. We'll see a whole lot less continuous Batswarm and Veil of Blades Spamming Impulse groups. I can't fathom how this would be considered a bad thing except from those pretty much entrenched in Impulse Spam Bat Swarming Blob running combat...shrug. Go ZoS!

Those Impulse groups will be able to hit n run but they won't have the sustainability they have now. That's a good thing in my book.

Derra · December 2014

I haveto admit i really like the changes to ultimate generation (from a pvp point of view). I played a streak sorc which pre nerf was unarguably the best ult generation in the game. It is still very strong. If my streak hits its target cap i can still get enough ultimate for a Negate in 6 to 8 casts. Imo this is too fast.
Why do i get so much ultimate? Because ult generation atm is not solely based on dmg and heal but also counts in evades, reflects as your own skills (LOL), and cc of any form.
That combined with WW passive, Bloodspawn set, assault rank 10 and fighters guild is simply too much ultimate generation in pvp and makes and gives ultimates more of a 5 to 15 second cooldown feeling instead of being special.

I do little pve but i do feel that the ultimate generation there should not change that much except that you can´t prefill your ultimate anymore?

I do think however that that there should be options do alter your ultimate generation in the new system. Be it with set bonuses or via champion passives. They should however not be nobrainer skillchoices but instead should come with SIGNIFICANT sacrifices on other stats.

The only thing that really bothers me about the system is: Why is the buff based on light and heavy attacks. This heavily impairs melee weapon builds that use some form of ranged attack and tank builds in pvp in particular. As it is now tanking is unrewarding enough. Having to drop block (even for a split second to perform a light attack) in the middle of the enemy lines should NOT be required.
Make the buff activate on EVERY attack performed by the character!

TehMagnus · December 2014

I agree that the new "ulti regen" system sucks ***. Why not just leave it as is...

WraithAzraiel · December 2014

People are always crying about ultimate generation - they just don't know it.

Every time someone cries about Bat Swarm, they're really crying about Ultimate Generation and the fact that Bat Swarm is relatively cheap compared to the rest of the available Ultimates.

Every time someone cries "NURF VAMPURS NAO" they're crying about Ultimate.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle....

JackDaniell · December 2014

This change is the battle roar nerf, a good one in my mind.

TehMagnus · December 2014

So to break the mechanic of one stupid PVP ultimate, instead of increasing the cost of the ultimate (it's not like they have a 1K pool to choose from), they just nerf all the ult regen in the game thus screwing PVE players?

OP

Muizer · December 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

So to break the mechanic of one stupid PVP ultimate, instead of increasing the cost of the ultimate (it's not like they have a 1K pool to choose from), they just nerf all the ult regen in the game thus screwing PVE players?

OP

The issue of ultimate cost, is actually a separate one. You could never balance that by tinkering with ult generation. That's not what this is about. What ZoS is trying to do is ensure everyone, regardless of their role, has more or less equal means to generate Ult. I think going for light and heavy attacks only atm is more like a "safe bet" in that respect. Only healers required a bit of special attention at this point.

PBpsy · December 2014

Vizier wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I think I have never agreed more with a post on this forum since I registered.

What ZOS proposed was uncalled for and such a major change that it is almost impossible to fathom how this game will look when they launch 1.6.In end game pve the amount of systems and content they have to balance around this change is massive. I do not expect that the game will be playable at launch in places like Vet dungeons and trials.

I know how it will look. We'll see a whole lot less continuous Batswarm and Veil of Blades Spamming Impulse groups. I can't fathom how this would be considered a bad thing except from those pretty much entrenched in Impulse Spam Bat Swarming Blob running combat...shrug. Go ZoS!

Those Impulse groups will be able to hit n run but they won't have the sustainability they have now. That's a good thing in my book.

Another PVPer that thinks that all the game systems should be balanced around the fact that they couldn't get out of the way of the huge AoE spamming zerg.
Awesome

Muizer · December 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

Another PVPer that thinks that all the game systems should be balanced around the fact that they couldn't get out of the way of the huge AoE spamming zerg.Awesome

PvP is part of the game, you know. There are legitimate complaints. Sure, it may mean PvE players will have to adapt, but doesn't imply in any way that PvE balance should be sacrificed.

PBpsy · December 2014

Muizer wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

Another PVPer that thinks that all the game systems should be balanced around the fact that they couldn't get out of the way of the huge AoE spamming zerg.Awesome

PvP is part of the game, you know. There are legitimate complaints. Sure, it may mean PvE players will have to adapt, but doesn't imply in any way that PvE balance should be sacrificed.

PvE is part of the game, you know. There are legitimate complaints. Sure, it may mean PVP players will have to adapt, but doesn't imply in any way that PvE balance should be sacrificed.

Solanum · December 2014

I personally am a huge fan of the change to ultimate.

"•It makes combat and ultimate almost like a CHORE you have to use light attacks every 8 seconds to continue to gain ultimate and you acquire it over a long period of time. Gaining ultimate should be an incentive not a chore."

I'm glad they give light attacks a purpose, with as a reward ultimate.
Maybe, just maybe ultimate will be an incentive to do something else then spamming spells while perma-blocking.

"•It promotes and helps bad players. It makes it so players don't have to focus on AoE based builds and every one pretty much gets the same ultimate. ZOS is adjusting the AoE caps, but the main point of AoEs were to generate ultimate at least that's how my build was based unless they were a glass cannon AoE DPS."

I would not consider an AoE build that is purely oriented on building ultimate as fast as possible the benchmark of a skilled player.

In my opinion using an Ultimate should be a choice, a matter of timing, deciding when to go all out. I believe this is partially the reason they were so much more powerful then our other skills.

Being able to spam them is stupid, being able to gather enough ultimate to spam them while constantly blocking is not a sign of skill, it's a sign of broken mechanics.

I'm glad it's being fixed.

Samadhi · December 2014

Look on the bright side, at least it is not like they have made a change that seems to be a concentrated effort to ensure that light attack weaving is the best way to achieve maximum DPS after previously labeling such circumstances as unintended.

Vunter · December 2014

It promotes and helps bad players. It makes it so players don't have to focus on AoE based builds and every one pretty much gets the same ultimate. ZOS is adjusting the AoE caps, but the main point of AoEs were to generate ultimate at least that's how my build was based unless they were a glass cannon AoE DPS.

Are you saying that all the people with a single target build are bad players here? $:\$

And come on dude, you know it since you probably play as one: a nerf to the block and cast aoe builds is necessary.

zaria · December 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I think I have never agreed more with a post on this forum since I registered.

What ZOS proposed was uncalled for and such a major change that it is almost impossible to fathom how this game will look when they launch 1.6.In end game pve the amount of systems and content they have to balance around this change is massive. I do not expect that the game will be playable at launch in places like Vet dungeons and trials.

I know how it will look. We'll see a whole lot less continuous Batswarm and Veil of Blades Spamming Impulse groups. I can't fathom how this would be considered a bad thing except from those pretty much entrenched in Impulse Spam Bat Swarming Blob running combat...shrug. Go ZoS!

Those Impulse groups will be able to hit n run but they won't have the sustainability they have now. That's a good thing in my book.

Another PVPer that thinks that all the game systems should be balanced around the fact that they couldn't get out of the way of the huge AoE spamming zerg.
Awesome

Well in PvE the issue is more that it was two ways of building ultimate, one was AOE trash, secondary was to to pump healing spring, fighting an boss did not generate ultimate enough to be relevant and its during the boss fights its important. yes its some crazy fights with lots of adds where you get lots of ultimate, final boss in wayrest sewer where we pulls the zombies and then the bats come its possible to have negate up pretty much all the time.

In PvP you will see less ultimate use. yes an large group will still have plenty of ultimate to use but this require more coordination more like ultimate use during an hard boss fight.

PBpsy · December 2014

Vunter wrote: »

It promotes and helps bad players. It makes it so players don't have to focus on AoE based builds and every one pretty much gets the same ultimate. ZOS is adjusting the AoE caps, but the main point of AoEs were to generate ultimate at least that's how my build was based unless they were a glass cannon AoE DPS.

Are you saying that all the people with a single target build are bad players here? $:\$

And come on dude, you know it since you probably play as one: a nerf to the block and cast aoe builds is necessary.

Yes a DPS in PVE that doesn't have a a good mix of AOE and single target damage and knows when to use it depending on the situation is in general a bad player. I have encountered players that were using only snipe or CS on the spider adds on second boss vet COH or the adds from netch boss in DC , These were also the players that complained about the dungeon being impossible , proposed exploits such as hiding behind the freaking wall on Immirl and posted their freaking awesome FTC single target dps like if anyone gave a crap considering how badly that dungeon run was. I wonder how many of people that criticize AOE use are these types.

A good player will be flexible and use whatever tool is needed where it is needed.He will use single target when appropriate,aoe when appropriate,mitigation and support abilities when appropriate.
This will certainly not change with the ultimate changes and AOE/Single target /support alternating players will still be more successful.

For pvp it is a matter of your goals and what do you want to do and one can be considered skilled no mater what his skills are, if he is consistently successful

TehMagnus · December 2014

Muizer wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

So to break the mechanic of one stupid PVP ultimate, instead of increasing the cost of the ultimate (it's not like they have a 1K pool to choose from), they just nerf all the ult regen in the game thus screwing PVE players?

OP

The issue of ultimate cost, is actually a separate one. You could never balance that by tinkering with ult generation. That's not what this is about. What ZoS is trying to do is ensure everyone, regardless of their role, has more or less equal means to generate Ult. I think going for light and heavy attacks only atm is more like a "safe bet" in that respect. Only healers required a bit of special attention at this point.

The only role having issues regenerating ultimate are Tanks which nobody really ever complained about. I'm happy they are trying to make tanking more interesting but if it's a the cost of all the other roles who where generating ultimate just fine, this is bs.

Only people this helps is bad players by putting them at the same level as good players who had crafted their builds to regen ultimate fast.

Slurg · December 2014

Does this mean people will no longer have an excuse to spam spells repeatedly at banks and crafting stations "to generate ultimate" like they always say when others call them out for being a jerk?

tinythinker · December 2014

Similar suggestions have been posted by different people over the last few days, but here goes for those who haven't seen such posts/comments:

1. If you lower or cap ult gains from things like AoE/crit strikes and/or raise ult costs for overused ults, the issue for over-use of ultimates by certain builds in situations like PvP is addressed.

2. If you raise ult gains for dodging an attack, give an ult boon for a period after blocking and then doing a weapon attack, and put ult gen into taunt abilities, then:
-block casters will have to drop the block for an attack at least every so many seconds because their spell crits/AoE aren't going to raise crit fast enough for their current play style.
-tanks will get more ult whether they choose to dodge, taunt & block, or take a swipe at a target every so often.
-single target stamina builds get more ult from all of the dodging and from a quickblock --> light attack/ability weave.

3. If you simply require that healing affect targets that are in combat (as in "you can't mount while in combat") then you don't have to worry about players pre-charging ult outside of combat. They would have to earn it in battle.

4. Players using multi-target bars/rotations, tanks, etc, aren't forced to arbitrarily try to toss in a light attack regardless of play style or circumstance just to generate ult (and yes tanks can already do more than just block while blocking). You get rewarded for active and thoughtful play in many different play styles, which was the original design intention for the ultimate system.

5. This type of balancing would involve raising and lowering current coefficients in the current ult gen formula, using a similar code to the proposed update (for the suggested ult buff with light attack after blocking), adding an AoE ult cap, and giving skills like Puncture ult gen. Nothing pie in the sky or overly elaborate/burdensome in terms of coding.

And no, this isn't just about being for or against super-crit/high DPS AoE/DK-Vamp builds roaring through Cyrodiil in pain train conga lines of hellish fire, nor about elite players with extremely focused builds doings trials in the time it takes most groups to reach the first boss.

The first thing I though of while listening to the devs on "ESO Live!" revealing the new system for ult gen was how the proposed changes was the semi-tankish multi-mob PvE setup I use for my non-vamp, average-to-below-average crit/DPS Templar. I am all for balance and curbing abuse. I and others just see what seems like a better way to address those issues that doesn't involve something arbitrary like hitting a button every 8 seconds even if it is counter-productive or otherwise unnecessary. If ZOS really wants a set flat rate then why not just make it a constant "x ult per second while in combat"? Thoughtful nuance that rewards different play styles makes more sense to me.

Nijjion · December 2014

What they are doing is pretty much putting a cooldown on ultimates.

zaria · December 2014

Slurg wrote: »

Does this mean people will no longer have an excuse to spam spells repeatedly at banks and crafting stations "to generate ultimate" like they always say when others call them out for being a jerk?

Probably, this will make a standard tactic of keeping one add alive but CC so you stay in combat and heal to generate ultimate.
This is already done to let people regen resources in many fights where the boss waits until last add is killed.

AshySamurai · December 2014

Nijjion wrote: »

What they are doing is pretty much putting a cooldown on ultimates.

What they are doing is making ultimate ability truly ultimate instead of spammable. Yep, now you have to think when to use it.

c0rp · December 2014

SO many [snip] complaining just to complain. This is a good change. And for the record: if you aren't using light attack you are doing it wrong...

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

Nijjion · December 2014

AshySamurai wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

What they are doing is pretty much putting a cooldown on ultimates.

What they are doing is making ultimate ability truly ultimate instead of spammable. Yep, now you have to think when to use.

Yeah that's good and bad at the same time. Ignorance would've been bliss if they had it work like that from the start but this changes a lot about the game we already know and play at the moment.

It's a nerf more to DKs than to any of the others as well (DKs heavily rely on it for resource sustain). Though some will love this extra hit to DKs. Interesting to see what DKs will have left after the patch

Think a lot of them will go stam with the buffs to medium armor/stam.

Guess we can finally moan about the other classes semi OP skills haha

Muizer · December 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Only people this helps is bad players by putting them at the same level as good players who had crafted their builds to regen ultimate fast.

Is it so difficult to accept that ZoS never intended the disparity between builds to be as big as it is?