Guild Traders a lesson in elitist trading

martinhpb16_ESO · December 2014

milthalas wrote: »

drschplatt wrote: »

I find the guild trader system to be a bit annoying because it's just a pain in the butt to figure out where all the traders are.

ZOS agrees with you, that's why if you check your map there is a special icon indicating where the guild traders are located. You can look at your map filters and it should be an option.

The icons on the map only show the out of the way single kiosks found out in the jungle etc. Quite frankly even if you wanted to visit these its a lot of travelling just to get to one lonely kiosk selling a few scraps.

The kiosks in main population centres do not have icons on the world map, only the local city map.

You have to visit a zone and then click around the town maps to find them.

martinhpb16_ESO · December 2014

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

Who really thought this would be an "egalitarian system"?

Seriously?

I'm the OP. I wrote it but certainly never ever believed it.

However on these forums there was a significantly vocal anti-AH faction that advocated the trade-guild system as a a fairer option.

In fact I believe that the kiosk thing may even have been a player suggestion that was taken up.

I remember posting that this wasn't going to be fair and getting lots of LOL's and replies from folk claiming that an AH would be the spawn of Satan populated by the turds of his minions.

Darthryan · December 2014

Careful people. Don't say how much your guild spends on kiosks. I got booted from aguild for saying a huge made up number one time.

Can you imagine how badly zos would mess up a global or even factional a.h.?
See how they fixed the LFG tool?

Kartalin · December 2014

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

The kiosks in main population centres do not have icons on the world map, only the local city map.

You have to visit a zone and then click around the town maps to find them.

Actually, you can click into the different city maps from anywhere in Tamriel

And the basic rule is that the main city in the zone will have 5-7 kiosks with random out of the way wayshrines will have 1 kiosk. So Skywatch, Elden Root, Daggerfall, Windhelm, Wayrest, Riften, etc...those are centers of commerce.

Siliconhobbit_ESO · December 2014

... Also, many guilds hold raffles (guildies buy "tickets" for like 2k gold) for purple motifs, mats, and the like.

This right here is an effective way to generate cash for your trading guild. Even the larger, more populous trading guilds, do these sorts of things.

With bids for kiosks sometimes going for more then 100k...and EASILY more then 500k for some of the 'prime' locations, each trade guild HAS to employ whatever strategy it can conceive of in order to maintain a healthy micro-economy with it's own members. To do otherwise is to witness the demise of said trading guild.

It is also to the trading guilds' benefit to average 400 or more members each and every day. The closer you can come to the 500 member cap, the better the micro-economy will be and the more money the trade guild will generate. Most effective trading guilds have an 'inactive kick' policy to ensure that a good majority of their members ARE in fact doing business and generating capital for the trading guild.

The best trade guilds use those profits to purchase prime locations for their weekly kiosk, spy and keeps tabs on the bids of rival trade guilds, and support their own trade guild members with weekly raffles, contests, giveaways, and other member related activities that encourage repeated business.

martinhpb16_ESO · December 2014

Siliconhobbit_ESO wrote: »

... Also, many guilds hold raffles (guildies buy "tickets" for like 2k gold) for purple motifs, mats, and the like.

*snip*

^^

Nice post.

A lot of hassle just to trade and the best trading is limited to these type of guilds.

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2014

I was a member of a very prominent, perhaps largest trade guild in the game, and I just outright dropped guild and left it almost two months ago.

Its nothing but a price fixing racket and I got sick and tired of people whining about under-cutting. Value is purely subjective, and what i value a market item may be different then someone else's, but if I want to move an item quickly ill charge whatever price I deem fair to move the said item.

I am strongly considering opening the 1st ever 100% free market capitalism market. Buy and sell for whatever price you choose, prices will be decided purely by supply and demand, not a few people setting the market value at inflated rates.

This will be more of a hands off market, ill set up the medium to buy, then ill get out of they way and allow competition to run its natural course. Mad someone is charging less then you? Then do what every other store does, lower prices, find a cheaper supplier, or sell cheaper and make up the difference elsewhere. That's how it works, capital is a proven successful system, but there are a few trade guilds that IMO clearly price fix and artufically inflate the market by forcing its members to sell at certain price thresholds.

I assure you, that wont happen with mine. So she I set it up, all are welcome to come to be free of arbitrary restrictions, to be free to move inventory at whever price you want, freedom is what i offer, you are in 100% control of the price you sell at and no one whining about undercutting will change it.

I'll have the best prices in nirn and I will force others to adapt to a free market or die, plain and simple.

SteveCampsOut · December 2014

Siliconhobbit_ESO wrote: »

... Also, many guilds hold raffles (guildies buy "tickets" for like 2k gold) for purple motifs, mats, and the like.

This right here is an effective way to generate cash for your trading guild. Even the larger, more populous trading guilds, do these sorts of things.

Actually it's part of what's broken about Kiosk bidding because these raffles artificially inflate the cost of bidding on Kiosks to the point where nobody who isn't squeezing every gold piece out of their guild members can afford to bid on a kiosk!

dharbert · December 2014

Let me illustrate exactly how useless guild traders are. I've been looking for a complete Shroud Of The Lich set for months now. I've been to every single guild trader in the game. I've found 1 or 2 pieces here and there for insanely inflated prices. 30k to 80k per piece. I've only ever manged to find two pieces between EVERY guild trader in the entire game.

Tonight, after I visited all of the guild traders yet again, I simply asked in zone chat if anyone had Shroud Of The Lich pieces for sale and I got the entire set within 20 minutes for less than a single piece would have cost me on a guild trader.

Every guild trader has the same crap that every other guild trader has. It was the individual players who came through for me and got me the set pieces that I needed. If we had a global auction house that everyone could post to, everyone could find anything they are looking for at any time and not have to wayshrine between 200 overpriced vendors to do it.

newtinmpls · December 2014

Mostly I'm shocked and dismayed at the overblown prices for stuff that was found for free (mostly thinking motifs here). I stop by traders if I'm in the mood, but I limit my searches to 50-100 gold, as if it's beyond that I don't really need it.

Epsilon_Echo · December 2014

The system could use a little fine tuning but as a whole I am happy with it. I won't try to defend is because I get the feeling most have made up their minds already. I will say that at its core it's a cut throught capitalistic system and I like that.

How to make it more fun for everyone?

Increase the number of venders by 25%.

Split the vendors so that half run monday-sunday, the other half Thursday-Wednesday.

If you're smart you can figure out how that would help the system on your own.

Alphashado · December 2014

dharbert wrote: »

If we had a global auction house that everyone could post to, everyone could find anything they are looking for at any time

That is exactly why zos does not want a global AH.

Do you really want instant access everything you are looking for? What is the point in playing the game if everything was instantly accessible? Would there be any pride in crafting? Would there be any point in exploring? Would there be any reward for effort?

One of the main reasons people are trying to get away from MMOs like WoW is because everything is easy. Personally, I like the fact that I can't instantly find any piece of gear I want. I like the fact that I have to invest some time and effort to acquire things.

Instant gratification doesn't appeal to me. It's the journey and reward for my effort that does.

Teargrants · December 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

Instant gratification doesn't appeal to me. It's the journey and reward for my effort that does.

The journey of porting around guild merchants for 3 hours looking for Arch Mage gear, only to find a couple heads listed for 50k+ and a neck for 30k - and then end up just throwing AP at gear boxes to get the set instead? I'm sorry, but it's not about 'instant gratification', it's about not wasting 3 hours of my life doing literally nothing productive and achieving nothing whatsoever just to come to the conclusion that what I want to buy is not available in the market.

Alphashado wrote: »

What is the point in playing the game if everything was instantly accessible?

What you miss is that what I did was not playing the game. Spending hours going through kiosks prevents me from playing the game because I'm throwing away my time in load screens and navigating the poor guild store UI menus, where I need to redefine my search filters over and over for every single store - and to top it all off, there isn't even any form of search by name function.

Wing · December 2014

I am kind of mixed, I really think the current idea is okay but the implementation needs tweaking. some points:

-social aspect: currently I belong to two very large trade guilds, full of people I would otherwise not have met or interacted with (I generally don't join guilds and only did because I was "forced" to. I have come to enjoy interacting with some of the more talkative members of those guilds.

also, holding key kiosks (one of my two guilds does hold a R'K kiosk) is a group effort and we feel like we as a group are working together to further our trading and in game financial goals. we hold guild auctions, weekly raffles, and flash raffles. some say 250k - 500k is a lot, that's only 1k per guild member, and most serious trade guilds simply demand that much as a kind of weekly guild sub. you can get more then that running quests in starter islands.

-kiosk location: I do feel there should be more condensed kiosk locations, instead of 3-5 in 10 areas there should be 10+ in 3-5 areas, probably more then that in fewer zones, this would really alleviate a lot of the hassle of traveling around, some are just in silly locations out in the wild. I would say having something like 15-20 in alliance capital zones would help those cities feel more important.

-gold sink: it is a massive one, when you consider it takes millions upon millions of gold out of the game every week with not only kiosk bids but still takes a percent of sales.

TL:DR okay concept that needs better implementation.

s7732425ub17_ESO · December 2014

What's really funny is that people don't realize that the bid prices are dramatically different among traders in the same area.

For example, I have two guild stores in Craglorn. One guild paid 350k for the spot. The other guild paid 125k. They are right next to each other.

This same price mismatch also exists in other areas as well. Guilds become accustomed to always paying the same price for the store, when in reality, they could probably drop their price considerably and still get it.

SFBryan18 · December 2014

How to exploit prices in ESO by SFBryan18:

Step 1: Join up to 5 trading guilds with kiosks. You can find them by watching the zone chat in popular locations.

Step 2: Download the add ons Deome's DataDaedra and Shopkeeper 1.0 (Classic). These will scan all the sales in your guild to show the averages for everything sold in the last month. The important difference is that datadaedra shows the actual average, and shopkeeper shows the trending average. The more popular your guilds, the better the information collected. More sales = More accurate prices.

Step 3: Go to other guild kiosks and look through the cheapest items. Find the items priced much lower (like literally hundreds lower) than the average. Purchase.

Step 4: Sell these items for average price in your own store.

Step 5: Profit!

Nowhere in these steps do you need to be a guild manager. Simply jump from one to the next and let them deal with the kiosk prices. This is the current economy for ESO... Is it better than an auction house? Meh...

NadiusMaximus · December 2014

Lol.

The only people who like the current economic system are the ones that can control it.

Try finding a specific item without going to 20 different sites, it's impossible.

All the other ES games had an Imperial trading company, or some form of main trade system in place, why don't we?

This system is just a gold sink with artificially inflated prices, if anyone really good at playing the system could crash it easy. It could be done pretty easy.

drschplatt · December 2014

ZOS agrees with you, that's why if you check your map there is a special icon indicating where the guild traders are located. You can look at your map filters and it should be an option.

No, they don't agree with me. It's still a pain in the butt, why on earth do I need to click through a bunch of maps, spend hours porting around finding the venders, NOT playing the game just to try and buy something?

Alliance wide trading house is the answer, not cartel guild stores with artificially high prices and a pain in the butt shopping system.

Gyudan · December 2014

drschplatt wrote: »

ZOS agrees with you, that's why if you check your map there is a special icon indicating where the guild traders are located. You can look at your map filters and it should be an option.

No, they don't agree with me. It's still a pain in the butt, why on earth do I need to click through a bunch of maps, spend hours porting around finding the venders, NOT playing the game just to try and buy something?

Alliance wide trading house is the answer, not cartel guild stores with artificially high prices and a pain in the butt shopping system.

I'm sure an add-on could fix that need for a map display that you seem to have. Why don't you start coding?

Alphashado · December 2014

I keep hearing the term "artificially high prices" being attributed to this system. As well as "elite" and "price fixing".

Blue Motifs were selling for 1k or more at launch, before the guild stores were even working correctly and well before the kiosks. Now that we are almost a year into the game, blue motifs sell for 100-200g.

Prices have nothing to do with the system, and everything to do with supply vs demand. All of these conspiracy theories about secret elite trading guild mafia organizations are absolute gibberish. Most of the trading guilds are just normal people that simply understand the system.

Rare pieces are going to be ridiculously expensive no matter what kind of system you have. For example right now V12 Warlock rings are selling for up to and over 500k. They are selling for that price because they are
1. Popular
2. Have been nerfed and therefore they are now rare
3. Silly people are willing to spend that much

V12 Warlock rings are hard to find because they are rare. Not because of the system. They would still be rare with factional AH and they would still be rare with a global AH. And they would still be ridiculously EXPENSIVE.

Again reference the price of blue motifs at launch compared to now. It has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with supply vs demand.

At the end of the day though, people will always have their conspiracy theories to explain everything.

Divad Zarn · December 2014

Yeah cmon guys, lets cry more, lets fix EVERYONE who are faster/clever/way more hardworker in game then you, player who playing since 4th april and used brains to progress is a way stronger then player who started playing yesterday, its so UNFAIR, everyone must be equal! lets cut everyone and everything, we want equality out there.

P.S. check out real life, most people sucking donkey balls out there, go and protect equality rights in real life, but in game player who spending more time in game, receiving more/better reward, its logical

dharbert · December 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

I keep hearing the term "artificially high prices" being attributed to this system. As well as "elite" and "price fixing".

Prices have nothing to do with the system, and everything to do with supply vs demand. All of these conspiracy theories about secret elite trading guild mafia organizations are absolute gibberish. Most of the trading guilds are just normal people that simply understand the system.

Rare pieces are going to be ridiculously expensive no matter what kind of system you have.

V12 Warlock rings are hard to find because they are rare. Not because of the system. They would still be rare with factional AH and they would still be rare with a global AH. And they would still be ridiculously EXPENSIVE.

Like I said in an earlier post, I've been looking for the Shroud Of The Lich set for months. I found the robe to this set on a guild trader priced at 80k. I then went to another guild trader and found it for 5k (and at a higher level). Other pieces to this set I finally found on separate guild trader for 20k to 50k per piece. Then I just simply asked in zone chat if anyone had any of these pieces for sale and I got them all, every piece to the set for less than 10k total.

It would have cost me hundreds of thousands of gold to buy the same set from guild traders. If there were a global auction house that anyone could post to without having to be in a guild, individuals would price their goods much more conservatively and not try to bleed you for every last gold piece you have.

So yes, the guild traders are mafia-style extortion. The Shroud Of The Lich set is one of the rarest sets in the entire game and I got it from a few players for a hundred times less than it would have cost me at a guild trader. Rarity does not matter when you are dealing with decent people.

SFBryan18 · December 2014

dharbert wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I keep hearing the term "artificially high prices" being attributed to this system. As well as "elite" and "price fixing".

Prices have nothing to do with the system, and everything to do with supply vs demand. All of these conspiracy theories about secret elite trading guild mafia organizations are absolute gibberish. Most of the trading guilds are just normal people that simply understand the system.

Rare pieces are going to be ridiculously expensive no matter what kind of system you have.

V12 Warlock rings are hard to find because they are rare. Not because of the system. They would still be rare with factional AH and they would still be rare with a global AH. And they would still be ridiculously EXPENSIVE.

Like I said in an earlier post, I've been looking for the Shroud Of The Lich set for months. I found the robe to this set on a guild trader priced at 80k. I then went to another guild trader and found it for 5k (and at a higher level). Other pieces to this set I finally found on separate guild trader for 20k to 50k per piece. Then I just simply asked in zone chat if anyone had any of these pieces for sale and I got them all, every piece to the set for less than 10k total.

It would have cost me hundreds of thousands of gold to buy the same set from guild traders. If there were a global auction house that anyone could post to without having to be in a guild, individuals would price their goods much more conservatively and not try to bleed you for every last gold piece you have.

So yes, the guild traders are mafia-style extortion. The Shroud Of The Lich set is one of the rarest sets in the entire game and I got it from a few players for a hundred times less than it would have cost me at a guild trader. Rarity does not matter when you are dealing with decent people.

The problem is, many players have no idea what they can get for their items or they believe others will not know the items true value. If you look at the steps I listed above, the reason that strategy works so well is you will see so much price variation at the kiosks. I've seen motifs selling for 20 gold and in the same kiosk selling for 1,000. There is nothing to tell people where the highs and lows are except add ons, which many don't use. This system allows players to exploit the low prices, but it also makes it really hard to find a decent price for anything because the values are made up off the top of the sellers head.

Alphashado · December 2014

dharbert wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I keep hearing the term "artificially high prices" being attributed to this system. As well as "elite" and "price fixing".

Prices have nothing to do with the system, and everything to do with supply vs demand. All of these conspiracy theories about secret elite trading guild mafia organizations are absolute gibberish. Most of the trading guilds are just normal people that simply understand the system.

Rare pieces are going to be ridiculously expensive no matter what kind of system you have.

V12 Warlock rings are hard to find because they are rare. Not because of the system. They would still be rare with factional AH and they would still be rare with a global AH. And they would still be ridiculously EXPENSIVE.

Like I said in an earlier post, I've been looking for the Shroud Of The Lich set for months. I found the robe to this set on a guild trader priced at 80k. I then went to another guild trader and found it for 5k (and at a higher level). Other pieces to this set I finally found on separate guild trader for 20k to 50k per piece. Then I just simply asked in zone chat if anyone had any of these pieces for sale and I got them all, every piece to the set for less than 10k total.

It would have cost me hundreds of thousands of gold to buy the same set from guild traders. If there were a global auction house that anyone could post to without having to be in a guild, individuals would price their goods much more conservatively and not try to bleed you for every last gold piece you have.

So yes, the guild traders are mafia-style extortion. The Shroud Of The Lich set is one of the rarest sets in the entire game and I got it from a few players for a hundred times less than it would have cost me at a guild trader. Rarity does not matter when you are dealing with decent people.

Reference the bold parts of your quote. You said yourself that you found a piece for 5k on a guild trader, then went on to say that guild traders are mafia stye extortion.

It isn't extortion or a fraud or a racket or a price fix. Know why? Because you can just go to another kiosk and find it cheaper.

Just like you did. Now you may remember that guild, remember that kiosk, and return to give them your business in the future. If you don't like what one guild is doing, just go to another one. It's really that simple. And lumping the entire system and everyone that uses it into some kind of underhanded conspiracy is ridiculous as your own post exemplifies.

Tabbycat · December 2014

The system is flawed and needs work. Exactly how ZOS can fix it, other than changing to a global auction house, I'm not sure.

As it is now, it allows only the wealthiest guilds to access the guild traders.

Soulshine · December 2014

I have to say I don't really use these systems much at all, nor do most of the players that I know. Between crafting our own stuff and the drops we get, we don't need to really buy anything.

That being said, when we do I confess we just go on global chat and find it. Way faster, easier, cheaper and certainly more reliable than trucking all over the map to find something.

I question whether this habit of chat buy/sell is in fact the greater practice than is shopping across tamriel for items. Too bad we have no way to see numbers on this to find out.

Personally, I just don't think the kiosk system is sustainable in it's current form altough the "idea" of them seemed nice in theory. Given what we already know about the economies of most games over the long haul, assuming this one even lasts that long... there are a huge amount of problems coming down the road with this, aside from the ones we already see. I would like to see the system revamped.

Razzak · December 2014

Those that support current system are those that are in it for the profit. Those that only want some sort of freedom in buying and selling are against it. ZOS usually follows what few guilds tell them, so you can be sure they will not change it.

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2014

dharbert wrote: »

It would have cost me hundreds of thousands of gold to buy the same set from guild traders. If there were a global auction house that anyone could post to without having to be in a guild, individuals would price their goods much more conservatively and not try to bleed you for every last gold piece you have.

So yes, the guild traders are mafia-style extortion. The Shroud Of The Lich set is one of the rarest sets in the entire game and I got it from a few players for a hundred times less than it would have cost me at a guild trader. Rarity does not matter when you are dealing with decent people.

So if I understand well you bought underpriced items from people, in the full knowledge that these people could have sold their items elsewhere at a much higher value. I'd say that you're quite guilty of extortion

I just love the system as it is, it's a whole game within the game, very realistic on top of that (a "worldwide auction house does not exist IRL either, you have to move your a** to get to several shops to be aware of the prices and get the best ones) , and an excellent alternative do this constant dungeoning you're left with at lvl Vet14.

And, as somebody mentioned : nobody is forced to buy. You can craft or farm anything you need. If you don't want to, well let others do it for you and pay you for it. Just fair. That's what business is about.

As to trading guilds squeezing money from their members or trying to control the market or the prices, I haven't tried every single trading guild in the game of course, but in the few i've joined I've never run into anything like that.

Of course some individuals tried to intimidate me or were being rude with me trying to tell me that I was selling too high or too low (depending on their own point of view) but... they had no means to force me. And it was a matter of individuals, not guilds. And it's all part of the game, just like it is IRL.

Trading in ESO is pure fun, I love it. Please ZOS don't change anything. Well, the guild store interface maybe..:D

anitajoneb17_ESO · December 2014

dharbert wrote: »

It would have cost me hundreds of thousands of gold to buy the same set from guild traders. If there were a global auction house that anyone could post to without having to be in a guild, individuals would price their goods much more conservatively and not try to bleed you for every last gold piece you have.

So yes, the guild traders are mafia-style extortion. The Shroud Of The Lich set is one of the rarest sets in the entire game and I got it from a few players for a hundred times less than it would have cost me at a guild trader. Rarity does not matter when you are dealing with decent people.

So if I understand well you bought underpriced items from people, in the full knowledge that these people could have sold their items elsewhere at a much higher value. I'd say that you're quite guilty of extortion

I just love the system as it is, it's a whole game within the game, very realistic on top of that (a "worldwide auction house does not exist IRL either, you have to move your a** to get to several shops to be aware of the prices and get the best ones) , and an excellent alternative do this constant dungeoning you're left with at lvl Vet14.

And, as somebody mentioned : nobody is forced to buy. You can craft or farm anything you need. If you don't want to, well let others do it for you and pay you for it. Just fair. That's what business is about.

As to trading guilds squeezing money from their members or trying to control the market or the prices, I haven't tried every single trading guild in the game of course, but in the few i've joined I've never run into anything like that.

Of course some individuals tried to intimidate me or were being rude with me trying to tell me that I was selling too high or too low (depending on their own point of view) but... they had no means to force me. And it was a matter of individuals, not guilds. And it's all part of the game, just like it is IRL.

Trading in ESO is pure fun, I love it. Please ZOS don't change anything. Well, the guild store interface maybe..;

Bouvin · December 2014

Nestor wrote: »

What I want to know is how does a trading guild make 280,000 from guild store cuts in a week? I can see a guild subsidizing the kiosk somewhat for the good of the guild, but I don't see how this is a sustainable model.

A lot of guilds are doing raffles with 1/2 the gold going to pay for the trader.