JaJaLuka wrote: »

This new idea that the dev's have had on scales is a good step, but I feel that it may have been better to simply remove the reflect part of the skill and leave the skill as a protection only ability.

For what ever it's worth I'd be fine with that if it needs to be nerfed.

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

It seems like a lame thing to want. It's one thing to claim a skill is op based on its quantifiable ability. It's another to claim that a mechanic itself is op, which is the gist of what I read here yes?

If that's the case I patently refuse it. There is nothing wrong with the mechanic/concept of RS. The idea that there is a skill that returns range damage is perfectly acceptable.

That being said it would be much better for DK's if the op's idea happened instead of limiting it to one or two reflections of individual projectiles. Which, let's be honest, is the only thing nerf fans will be happy with short of total removal.

Heaven forbid combat should have anything to do with strategy over Stat maxing and clicks-per-minute. Alot of people won't be happy until combat is an instanced process determined by dice so theh have something to blame their shortcomings on.

I recommend you play another class (probably a sorc) and come back then and let me know your thoughts.

A nerf is happening, I just don't necessarily like what they are doing to it.

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

I have a VR14 sorc, NB, Templar, and DK. I PvP with them all. I DO understand the struggles and powers of each class, something 99% of people here on the forums do not.

This I took from my last play session on my Sorc.



My DK rarely gets over a 5 KDR.

My sorc is a much more proficient single target killer. My DK is better for group play because I can bluff charge into enemy lines and make people scatter. I usually die doing it in large scale fights. But it breaks enemy lines and gives chances for my team to take initiative where my sorc couldn't

Yeah DK is (was?) good for pushing the enemy in these larger battles, other classes are cannon fodder to all the projectiles. It's a role I enjoy on my DK.

How would this work in a PVE context like Shada in Shada's tear? There are many other examples but this is one where RS current functionality is key. Why should templars effectively remain the only class able to reflect damage (eclipse)?

I don't like it, I don't like the nerf either but I would rather have the nerf as zeni is suggesting it than lose the only unique aspect of the ability.

Examples of Shields
Absorb magic and morphs
Hardened ward and morphs
Igneous shield and morphs
Blazing sheild and morphs
Absorption field
Healing ward

And I am likely missing a few.

Also, About 6 5p set bonuses also have shields, one weapon enchant, a few 3p set bonues, and I am sure there are some other shields I haven't though of.

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

I have a VR14 sorc, NB, Templar, and DK. I PvP with them all. I DO understand the struggles and powers of each class, something 99% of people here on the forums do not.

This I took from my last play session on my Sorc.



My DK rarely gets over a 5 KDR.

My sorc is a much more proficient single target killer. My DK is better for group play because I can bluff charge into enemy lines and make people scatter. I usually die doing it in large scale fights. But it breaks enemy lines and gives chances for my team to take initiative where my sorc couldn't

Yes, sorcs have a good get away. With enough time and effort you can accumulate huge kill streaks.

I think a "streak treatment" of scales would have been a better route. An infinite reflect should cost a lot to keep up for a long time. Limiting the number of reflects will make the skill a much less reliable defense. I think it should have remained reliable (infinite reflect) but became very costly to keep up after the first couple of casts.

[Edit]: PS: On a sorc-up-note, limiting the number of reflects on RS may open the door for some pretty good sorc pet builds with the winged twilight (shoots projectiles pretty fast; winged twilight = RS eater).

After 1.6: NERF DK!!! I stood in a banner for 17 seconds and when he was low health he used GDB. Then I died. Banner lasts far too long and GDB is too strong.

if they had reduced the dam of the reflected projectiles in PVP only
now its like 130% or something, if in pvp they reduced it to 70% or 60% or something, that would have been fine
but no, whiners got their way again and I think its gonna be garbage,

I will tell you this right now.

You take away reflective scales, and you destroy the game.

Reason: Only range will ever matter ever again, this will mean only three weapon types and two class skill lines will ever matter/factor.

Right now DKs are the only reason literally every single player isnt already using Bow/resto Sorcs.

It is the ONLY hard (and i say hard because its not a morph, its part of the base skill that is later morphed) counter to ranged weapons in this game.

You take away reflective scales, and the only thing you will ever die to are arrows and crystal shards because that is all people will ever use.

NordJitsu wrote: »

The reflect part is what makes it unique. It's literally in the name.

I think they could either: 1) Make it so the skill reflected attacks but the DK still took 10-20% of the damage or 2) Make Reflective Scales a toggle that drained a certain amount of magicka per reflect.

I think both would be better than limiting it to 4 reflects since they'd change less about how the skill is used while still bringing some much needed balance.

I don't like changes that completely redefine play styles.

I like point 2 here, I think it would be a good compromise. Would also make DK stam builds more useful as some DK's would then reserve their magica for the reflect and try to do damage with stamina abilities.

Also it gives other classes a proper counter for RS as they can burn through a DK's magica reserves and finally reach the DK with ranged. Of course a good DK should be able to manage their resources well enough to counteract this.

Saying that I would make a call to the developers to PLEASE TEST THOROUGHLY whatever change they are about to bring in for RS and get a LARGE amount of feedback from players before it goes live.

RS does not counter range attacks!
RS does counter projectils!

Everyone with S&B and the reflect of S&B can hurt a DK even with projectils.

Is Eclipse too OP when the victim still spams projectils? No, the victim is stupid and should break free or purge before.

Is Talons/Enchase too OP when the victim stands there while doing nothing? No, the victim is stupid and should just turn around and continue fighting.

Is Biting Jabs too OP when the victim is crying because of perma-CC? No, the victim has to care about his stamina. No CC while blocking (well nearly no CC).

Is the fear too OP when the victim cannot protect himself against it? No, there are ways to deal with it. Staminareg and/or Immovable might be a way.

Is Blazing Shield too OP when the victim stands next to the templar spamming attacks? No, the victim is stupid. He should do range skills or dots and keep some distance.

Is Streak too OP when the enemie cannot catch the sorc? Well... You can charge, but a good sorc will be able to run away. But this it is - he runs away, does this make a skill too OP? He won't kill someone while spamming Streak.

Is Snipe too OP when the victim is killed by two shots from his horse? No, those NBs just can gank and if you meet them on open field they will die. A build that has to attack horseriders is not a good one.
Most of the times you die because of Snipe you are ganked in your horse or you are against some enemies and one archer comes from behind. Great, what a OP-skill killing outnumbered enemies!

Is Soul Strike OP when the victim does nothing just die? Or is it OP when 10 guys are fighting one enemie and use a Soulstrike? No, you can interrupt Soul Strike very easyly. Against more enemies there are two options:
You purge or you die because you have too many debuffs. In the last case Soul Strike seems to be OP, but... He always is when you would die without it, too (Well... almost always ).

Result:
Many skills are strong but all of them can be countered. Some of them needs a specific reaction to counter, but you can counter it.
RS is a skill that is strong but can be countered easyly. It does damage just against stupid players and S&B user can do projectil damage through RS (at the moment S&B is not really rare)!

Sanct16 wrote: »

Or we just leave the ability as it is right now. There is nothing wrong with it in my opinion. It is an easy to counter defensive ability that punishes stupidity. If you stand in ground AoEs you will probably die. Counter: Move out. If you shoot repeatedly on a DKs reflect you will probably die. Counter: Don't hurt yourself.
I know people will laugh about this because they think DKs are gods and reflect is soooo OP and blablabla. But honestly its an ability that is basically just defensive. You can't kill anyone with it. And its still quite easily possible to kill a DK. Spread out, range him with unblockable heavy attacks, enjoy dead DK.

Yes its true that Dks can have ranged skills and gap closers with weapon abilities. But lets compare it to other classes:

Sorc has no Instant Heals => Restostaff + Weapon of your free choice
Nightblade has no Instant Heals and no Shield => Restostaff + Weapon of your free choice
Templar basically has everything so free choice of weapons
Dragonknight has no gap closer and no range => S&B + Destrostaff (for magicka build)

Please lets not stray another topic from discussion about abilities to whether is it possible to kill DK or not. Every class/build is killable, it just takes much more to kill DK in average, and other classes have all the right to ask or point issues why is so when same roles should be balanced out, regardless of class you are playing.

Think you are countering yourself with some statements here...

"If you shoot repeatedly on a DKs reflect you will probably die." >>> "But honestly its an ability that is basically just defensive. You can't kill anyone with it.". So, which one is it?

"It is an easy to counter defensive ability that punishes stupidity." This is half true, but only if you are paying attention on what DK do at every moment so you can see wings flap, or you suggest we should take as granted that DK will be immune to ranged attacks in heat of battle?

I would also point this line... "Spread out, range him with unblockable heavy attacks, enjoy dead DK.", as you are justifying RS with temporal bug of some other skill, same as you (DKs) justified RS recently with stackable healing debuff from arrows. What argument lefts when bug is fixed?

DK have a gap closer for range among class skills and it's called Fiery Grip. If it is bugged at the moment or you don't like it pulls only one enemy is something else, but you do have it. Templar Toppling charge is also bugged for example, but we are still using it.

Yes, there is a lot of wrong with RS in current form as it can completely nullify ranged attacks (even ultimates), for duration of fight, without any diminishing return for caster, only trivial cost of ability for effect it provide, and effect is bigger and stronger with more people hitting it. RS is great as ability and everyone would love to have such ability for sure, but reality is only one class have it.

Lets do a quick summary...
When you hear people complain or whine about banner, talons, cinder, flame lash or whatever combination DK use to create puddle of doom around him, response from DKs is don't stand in it and move away. When one move away (not even considering unbreakable/spammable roots here) and start shooting it from range, it is welcomed by Reflective scales completely diminishing its attacks, and response from DK is... well, don't shoot at it when you see flapping wings. Ok... so what should one do than? No melee, no range... throw flowers at DK?

Lets take a look from another angle too... I don't play sorc but will use it as example. As class, DK is strongest in melee and weak in range so you got Reflective scales, right? Sorc is strongest in range and weak in melee, but they don't have single ability to nullify melee attacks, no? You may say Sorcs can use bolt to make a distance and prevent DK doing melee damage, but DK have tools to close the gap again. You may say they can use Negate, but all you have to do is move away from it, while RS is effective for whole duration, no matter what.

Anyway, to conclude... think new version with reflecting 4-6 projectiles should be fine, as it would be on par with similar defensive abilities from other classes/trees which also have diminishing returns in place and/or are depletable.

Reflective is fine - just because you can't faceplant your snipe / poison arrow fotm-combo and instead have to actually look at your target and use different tactics in different situations does not mean that ability is broken.

You know what I think the real reason behind that Q.Q stream about reflective is? Too many players are camping their own keeps with bow in hand. During the long boring wait for that lone enemy to show up, they post in this forum about that one time they saw that guy, spammed everything they had - and died themselves.

"You can't kill anyone with it" (Sanct)

@Kromus‌ : Are you sure you understood this sentence? Sanct wanted to say that RS won't kill anyone. The DK cannot kill someone with this skill (unless a bad players kills himself). This the meaning of the sentence.