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Skills that need LOVE in PvP aka USELESS SKILLS

  • redspecter23
    redspecter23
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    There are plenty of abilities that range from subpar to useless in pvp. I'm not so sure that's a problem on its own. If an ability has some use, even if it's just a niche use, in any format (pvp, pve, etc) then I think that's fine.

    Nobody is arguing that Aspect Extraction needs to be buffed to be useful in pvp because it was never intended to be used in that environment.

    The number one example I can think of is werewolf. It may not be extremely powerful right now, but it does have a place in some pve environments currently. The nature of the ability pretty much rules it out almost completely in pvp. You need to rack up kills at an insane pace (by pvp standards) to keep the ability up. If you use it occasionally for the 30 second boost, it still leaves you open to a HUGE pause while transforming. Not a gamebreaker in pve, but in pvp, you could be dead before you get your first attack in. My point is the kill/feed requirement to keep the ability in use just isn't a feasible situation in pvp. It doesn't matter how good the passive and active abilities are if you can't activate your ultimate without being blown away during the animation or feeding animation.

    Should the mechanic be reworked from square one to make it usable in pvp? Maybe, maybe not. It may just not ever be optimal in that setting.
    Edited by redspecter23 on November 28, 2014 1:21AM
  • Cody
    Cody
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    Telel wrote: »
    I'd like to say that I use blur on my bow bar, and have found it does add a level of survivability to my otherwise squishy build. Basically I wanted 1 assassination skill for the critical bonus, and none of the others really fit how things usually work for me in PVP. Also as a stamina build I couldn't justify evade as it'd take away from potential attacks, and the executes for bow, and 2hders were more useful than Impale would be.

    While 15 (30 for 2 seconds) is not super great it does last for quite some time so I can cast it right as the stuff is getting real, switch to my 2hd bar to get rally up, and swap back in time ot get some poison injections, shades, and snipes off. By the time it's wearing off I'm either dead, there's enough breathing room to refresh everything, or the fight's over.

    Combine with judicious roll dodging I'm often the last person to fall when things go south. In fact I've gotten tells from people in other factions about how some folks claim I'm hacking the system due to how often I avoid their attacks. Keep in mind I AM NOT a good player either.

    However I do think it could use just a bit of tweaking. Maybe something as high as 25% for the base, but not much more than that.

    i think it needs 25-30% dodge chance. if not that, just scrap the skill and replace it with a damage shield. DKs and tempalrs have dodge skills that offer a higher chance of dodging. its ridiculous that the class that is built around stealth and speed has the dodge skill with one of the lowest percent dodge rates.
    Edited by Cody on November 28, 2014 3:26AM
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Roselle wrote: »
    Roselle wrote: »
    ^^ Healing ritual is a bad spell period. Long cast time, modest healing for that long cast time, very short range, and made redundant by the more versatile (and effective) healing springs.

    Yeah, you go ahead with that. I'd like to see how well you react to Negate.

    I react to it the way I'd imagine most players react to it - I move out of its area of effect. When they move out of it, they will be the beneficiaries of immediate heals without fear of interruption that go beyond 10 meters.

    I'm not sure of the scenarios you've tried this spell out on, but I have tested this and using LOS and stacking with your allies are some of the ways to handle this spell in a pvp environment.

    I've come from a long gaming background and have dipped into a few games with cast time healing spells (some even needing speed reduction from triggers/gear stats) so I've worked with Ritual of Rebirth a lot and it does have use. My earlier remark to you was an indirect way of saying how using it (with immovable/unstoppable) could work in your favor.

    Also, it is not "moderate" healing if you gear to make restoring light heals shine.

    I could ramble on more, but I don't really want to tell anyone to do this, or do that. In my opinion, the best way for a gamer to keep growing is to do their own testing and find abilities that work with their playstyle.

    All in all, I just wanted to defend Healing Ritual. I <3 you baby.

    I don't like this spell mainly for its short range...10 or 12 meters, whatever it is, it is too small to often do the spell's main function - heal everyone in your group. On top of that Zenimax wants a cast time and it is only marginally more efficient mana-wise than its competitors. Basically there are too many things that can go wrong using this spell: ally is 13 meters away, ally takes too much damage during cast time, you get interrupted, etc., that does not happen with Breath of Life.

    I want to like this spell because I like the animation and I like the concept of a medium sized mass heal. We should tell Zenimax at present it is a good concept that is unfortunately lacking so they will modify it and make it an attractive and effective option.
    Edited by Joy_Division on November 28, 2014 7:23AM


  • PenguinInACan
    PenguinInACan
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    derpsticks wrote: »
    @tplink3r1‌
    @dodgehopper_ESO‌

    Casting blinding light or its morphs gives the 500 spell resistance without any enemy being affected and so does solar barrage.

    The whole dawn's wrath tree makes no sense.

    Many skills/morphs from this line are either expensive, cannot crit, or only have the chance to crit once after 6-8 seconds. This results in less overall ultimate generation which greatly reduces their usefulness in both PVE and PVP. I can see how prism was supposed to help, but even with ult from prism the ult generation is low. This is because the skills either have a cast time that slows prism use (backlash / solar flare), are too expensive to spam (eclipse / blinding light), or not worth spamming (sun fire / solar barrage). Sun fire and its morphs are best not recast so their dots give potential crit ticks, while solar barrage does too low damage and has no effective dawn's wrath synergy skill to take advantage of the power buff that wont waste magicka. Furthermore, prism does not give ultimate when blinding light or its morphs are activated but it does when solar barrage is cast.

    Power of the light seems to only increase my power for the first hit and does not appear to do anything for the next 4 hits. This amounts to a whopping 2% increase to weapon damage. So instead of getting somewhere between 15 and 25 more weapon damage for 10 seconds you get 3-5. Furthermore, the weapon damage buff wouldn't even work with the entire skill line (except maybe the ult).

    So effectively dawn's wrath is somehow built around the perception that:

    1. There will be plenty of ultimate generation. (False, see above).
    2. Investing in the passives is a good thing. (False, enduring rays delays most skill's crit chance and gives marginal bonuses to the dots, prism is broken for some skills and is hampered in every way imaginable, illuminate does next to nothing for the entire skill tree, and restoring spirit hopes to help but falls very short reducing nova by 12 ult and many skills by no more than 10-16 stamina or magicka).
    3. The ultimate attainable and improved by the skills in the tree. (False, ultimate generation is terrible in dawn's wrath, the morphs either require someone else to activate or snare marginally more so than sun fire, the damage reduction is good but doesn't really work well with the rest of the tree).

    All in all I think dawn's wrath abilities are a mixed bag for both PVE and PVP. The tree seems to be the skeleton of a more useful set of skills that worked too well together.

    On solar barrage: with decent spell power you can get this to hit for 350-400, and it synergizes with a whole lot of temp skills. There just happen to be hardly any relevant ones in the dawns wrath tree. It'll boost jabs, spears, emp sweep, nova, and those are only the temp relevant ones. It boosts bats, which includes the self heals, and even activated synergies. I.e. try throwing out a solar barrage before you impale some taloned players and watch what happens. I won't even get into the weapon synergies. Just exiprament with it, expect to die a lot, and eventually you will understand how it works and be able to run a consistsnt 500-800 dps in PvP without having to spam lethal arrow or hoping a backlash doesn't get purged away.
    Marek
  • guybrushtb16_ESO
    guybrushtb16_ESO
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    derpsticks wrote: »
    @tplink3r1‌
    @dodgehopper_ESO‌

    Casting blinding light or its morphs gives the 500 spell resistance without any enemy being affected and so does solar barrage.

    The whole dawn's wrath tree makes no sense.

    Many skills/morphs from this line are either expensive, cannot crit, or only have the chance to crit once after 6-8 seconds. This results in less overall ultimate generation which greatly reduces their usefulness in both PVE and PVP. I can see how prism was supposed to help, but even with ult from prism the ult generation is low. This is because the skills either have a cast time that slows prism use (backlash / solar flare), are too expensive to spam (eclipse / blinding light), or not worth spamming (sun fire / solar barrage). Sun fire and its morphs are best not recast so their dots give potential crit ticks, while solar barrage does too low damage and has no effective dawn's wrath synergy skill to take advantage of the power buff that wont waste magicka. Furthermore, prism does not give ultimate when blinding light or its morphs are activated but it does when solar barrage is cast.

    Power of the light seems to only increase my power for the first hit and does not appear to do anything for the next 4 hits. This amounts to a whopping 2% increase to weapon damage. So instead of getting somewhere between 15 and 25 more weapon damage for 10 seconds you get 3-5. Furthermore, the weapon damage buff wouldn't even work with the entire skill line (except maybe the ult).

    So effectively dawn's wrath is somehow built around the perception that:

    1. There will be plenty of ultimate generation. (False, see above).
    2. Investing in the passives is a good thing. (False, enduring rays delays most skill's crit chance and gives marginal bonuses to the dots, prism is broken for some skills and is hampered in every way imaginable, illuminate does next to nothing for the entire skill tree, and restoring spirit hopes to help but falls very short reducing nova by 12 ult and many skills by no more than 10-16 stamina or magicka).
    3. The ultimate attainable and improved by the skills in the tree. (False, ultimate generation is terrible in dawn's wrath, the morphs either require someone else to activate or snare marginally more so than sun fire, the damage reduction is good but doesn't really work well with the rest of the tree).

    All in all I think dawn's wrath abilities are a mixed bag for both PVE and PVP. The tree seems to be the skeleton of a more useful set of skills that worked too well together.

    On solar barrage: with decent spell power you can get this to hit for 350-400, and it synergizes with a whole lot of temp skills. There just happen to be hardly any relevant ones in the dawns wrath tree. It'll boost jabs, spears, emp sweep, nova, and those are only the temp relevant ones. It boosts bats, which includes the self heals, and even activated synergies. I.e. try throwing out a solar barrage before you impale some taloned players and watch what happens. I won't even get into the weapon synergies. Just exiprament with it, expect to die a lot, and eventually you will understand how it works and be able to run a consistsnt 500-800 dps in PvP without having to spam lethal arrow or hoping a backlash doesn't get purged away.

    The point about solar barrage is just that it really isn't better than elemental ring anywhere. It does have slightly higher base damage, but elemental ring gets +13% from flawless dawnbreaker, an additional dot and a high chance for proccing burning, also more synergy due to being elemental damage, which can be further boosted by racials by up to +7% and a potential +10% damage from engulfing flames.

    That really is a lot going for it, whereas solar barrage only has it's slight bonus to spell damage, for which you still need another skill to take advantage of, and it AFAIK even runs into softcap issues; since you probably already capped spell damage anyway you really only get about half the listed value, and even that isn't worth much.
  • dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO
    derpsticks wrote: »
    The thing most people don't realize is simply casting a dawns wrath ability gives the templar 500 spell resistance. While this isn't much I think its worth mentioning.

    Nope. It only give against target affected. You don't just get 500 resist.
  • dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO
    Sounds like op plays sorc. He wants to improve 2 of their best moves, while focusing on all everyone else's crap.
  • PenguinInACan
    PenguinInACan
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    derpsticks wrote: »
    @tplink3r1‌
    @dodgehopper_ESO‌

    Casting blinding light or its morphs gives the 500 spell resistance without any enemy being affected and so does solar barrage.

    The whole dawn's wrath tree makes no sense.

    Many skills/morphs from this line are either expensive, cannot crit, or only have the chance to crit once after 6-8 seconds. This results in less overall ultimate generation which greatly reduces their usefulness in both PVE and PVP. I can see how prism was supposed to help, but even with ult from prism the ult generation is low. This is because the skills either have a cast time that slows prism use (backlash / solar flare), are too expensive to spam (eclipse / blinding light), or not worth spamming (sun fire / solar barrage). Sun fire and its morphs are best not recast so their dots give potential crit ticks, while solar barrage does too low damage and has no effective dawn's wrath synergy skill to take advantage of the power buff that wont waste magicka. Furthermore, prism does not give ultimate when blinding light or its morphs are activated but it does when solar barrage is cast.

    Power of the light seems to only increase my power for the first hit and does not appear to do anything for the next 4 hits. This amounts to a whopping 2% increase to weapon damage. So instead of getting somewhere between 15 and 25 more weapon damage for 10 seconds you get 3-5. Furthermore, the weapon damage buff wouldn't even work with the entire skill line (except maybe the ult).

    So effectively dawn's wrath is somehow built around the perception that:

    1. There will be plenty of ultimate generation. (False, see above).
    2. Investing in the passives is a good thing. (False, enduring rays delays most skill's crit chance and gives marginal bonuses to the dots, prism is broken for some skills and is hampered in every way imaginable, illuminate does next to nothing for the entire skill tree, and restoring spirit hopes to help but falls very short reducing nova by 12 ult and many skills by no more than 10-16 stamina or magicka).
    3. The ultimate attainable and improved by the skills in the tree. (False, ultimate generation is terrible in dawn's wrath, the morphs either require someone else to activate or snare marginally more so than sun fire, the damage reduction is good but doesn't really work well with the rest of the tree).

    All in all I think dawn's wrath abilities are a mixed bag for both PVE and PVP. The tree seems to be the skeleton of a more useful set of skills that worked too well together.

    On solar barrage: with decent spell power you can get this to hit for 350-400, and it synergizes with a whole lot of temp skills. There just happen to be hardly any relevant ones in the dawns wrath tree. It'll boost jabs, spears, emp sweep, nova, and those are only the temp relevant ones. It boosts bats, which includes the self heals, and even activated synergies. I.e. try throwing out a solar barrage before you impale some taloned players and watch what happens. I won't even get into the weapon synergies. Just exiprament with it, expect to die a lot, and eventually you will understand how it works and be able to run a consistsnt 500-800 dps in PvP without having to spam lethal arrow or hoping a backlash doesn't get purged away.

    The point about solar barrage is just that it really isn't better than elemental ring anywhere. It does have slightly higher base damage, but elemental ring gets +13% from flawless dawnbreaker, an additional dot and a high chance for proccing burning, also more synergy due to being elemental damage, which can be further boosted by racials by up to +7% and a potential +10% damage from engulfing flames.

    That really is a lot going for it, whereas solar barrage only has it's slight bonus to spell damage, for which you still need another skill to take advantage of, and it AFAIK even runs into softcap issues; since you probably already capped spell damage anyway you really only get about half the listed value, and even that isn't worth much.

    I agree elemental ring is by far more versatile for pvp and pve alike, however this thread was about "USELESS" skills in pvp, which i believe solar barrage is most definitely not. It is also worth noting that with the reduced range of impulse (6m) that does give a 2m advantage to solar barrage (8m) which I think is quite relevant considering how many people are roll-dodge happy now that snipe is everywhere.

    Obviously if it is a choice between impulse or solar barrage impulse will win every time, at least until the champion system softcap changes occur. But, again, this is a "this skill is useless/don't use it" thread, and with solar barrage having the capabilities that it does, it should not be overlooked just because its in the popularly hated dawns wrath skill tree.

    Also the cooldown is ridiculous and the fact that it even exists (along with the other templar ability cooldowns) makes the ability very disappointing when trying to animation cancel into rotations.
    Edited by PenguinInACan on November 29, 2014 8:00AM
    Marek
  • Bouvin
    Bouvin
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    TheBull wrote: »
    NB - Agony. You do the cast animation over and over if someone is holding block but it never casts. Plus it has a 1.5 second cast time.

    NB - Blur. 15% chance to miss, buffed to 30% on activation for 2 seconds with the double take morph. Why would I cast this spell when it cost as much as Cloak, when cloak gives a 100% chance to miss... It's weak and redundant.

    Considering how broken cloak is...
  • Cathexis
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    Critical surge basically just mitigates the melee damage gap for sorcs. I think sorcs are right where they need to be, but 1v1 sorcs are hurting right now (at least as far as I can tell).
    The Tomb of FPS Alteration Magic - Everything You Need to Know About FPS
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
    Praise Malacath.
  • guybrushtb16_ESO
    guybrushtb16_ESO
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    Cathexis wrote: »
    Critical surge basically just mitigates the melee damage gap for sorcs. I think sorcs are right where they need to be, but 1v1 sorcs are hurting right now (at least as far as I can tell).

    IMO, sorcs need two things right now: first is a reliable self heal, second is something to increase their dps as magicka builds, preferrably a lightning dot.
  • manny254
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    tplink3r1 wrote: »
    Templar - Backlash/Blinding flashes/rune focus/eclipse.

    Blinding flashes is one of the best skills you can use in pvp.
    - Mojican

    -Ádamant
    -Viva la Venatus
    -Rip RÁGE
  • tplink3r1
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    manny254 wrote: »
    tplink3r1 wrote: »
    Templar - Backlash/Blinding flashes/rune focus/eclipse.

    Blinding flashes is one of the best skills you can use in pvp.
    5 meters range is a joke for PvP, it should be 8 meters +.
    Edited by tplink3r1 on November 30, 2014 3:57AM
    VR16 Templar
    VR3 Sorcerer
  • manny254
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    tplink3r1 wrote: »
    manny254 wrote: »
    tplink3r1 wrote: »
    Templar - Backlash/Blinding flashes/rune focus/eclipse.

    Blinding flashes is one of the best skills you can use in pvp.
    5 meters range is a joke for PvP, it should be 8 meters +.

    Psshhh

    skill that stuns you through block > 8 meters
    - Mojican

    -Ádamant
    -Viva la Venatus
    -Rip RÁGE
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