Why are there even "classes" in ESO?

boggie · November 2014

Artemis wrote: »

So are you saying now it's not like that? People that want to go in groups as DPS and were unlucky to pick Templars are struggling. And there is almost no way for them to change it unless they reroll.
Classless system gives freedom and equality - EVERYONE would have an opportunity to roll a build that would be on par with others (provided, they have skills). Now, say, as a NB I can only cry and regret that I didn't pick a DK when I see how they PvP and how they can tank the last fight in Vet DSA with that insane selfheal that lets them pull the boss away from the group, survive and come back.

The classless system would balance itself in the sense that the players who are struggling can easily change their build and then there will be nothing to complain about except for demands to make more build viable lol. But is it different now? Now it's not. So what's the point in having the class system if not what I said earlier in this topic? Money, making people pay more if they want to try another class's skill lines or reroll... Because now, if I want to reroll not only I need to level new character, I also need to get 11k achievement points so that at some point I can say: "Okay, now I finally keep progressing". It's just so archaic.

I never said that the game in its current state is perfectly balanced. You are missing my point entirely. What I am saying is that forcing players to chose one out of a particular number of skillsets promotes build diversity and gives meaning to the choices you make regarding your skill loadout beyond what color you want your particle effects to be. In a multiplayer game, bringing something to the table that not every other player has is a good thing. Remove that, and you may as well delete every skill in the game beyond having 1 single target dps ability, 1 aoe dps ability, 1 armor buff, 1 group heal, etc. Remove classes and suddenly every dps who isn't running the single most optimal build is now a liability to their party.

Of course the game still needs balancing. It's less than a year old, for god's sake. There are games that have been out 5 years or more (not naming names, I'm sure we can all think of a few) that are still horribly unbalanced. But to say "the classes as they are now have some imbalances, let's just get rid of them entirely and let everyone use every skill" is dumbing the game down to a preschool level. It removes all significance of choice. It totally invalidates any "uniqueness" to build or playstyle... for all intents and purposes, it totally removes the need to have skills in the first place. Just strip out all skills and let us run around with nothing but mouse attacks. That's about the depth of gameplay you would get. It would absolutely destroy the game.

If you can explain why you think skyrim online (95% of players running around with the exact same build) would be preferable to the current system, I'd love to hear it. There is a reason that classes are a standard MMO convention.

Pmarsico9 · November 2014

There shouldn't be classes. It's not hard to read tooltips and people should have the ability to figure out how they want to play.

It's harder to balance classes as they stand now and it's almost entirely been ignored in many ways (class balance) than it would have been seeing how people actually wanted to play the game.

Another big problem are the armor passives.

Rosveen · November 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

So that everyone is not running

Scales
Dragonsblood
Talons
Blazing shield
Bolt Escape
Banner

I'll admit to Dragons's Blood and just unlocked Reflective Scales, but I don't use the others.

My Templar doesn't use Blazing shield, in fact apart from Biting Jabs he's quite atypical, he's only just started learning his healing line (VR2 BTW).
My Sorc only used Bolt escape in the Molag Bal fight, otherwise it's not on the bar.
Is Banner a DK skill, if so it's on the bar, but not actually used, I really need to change it back to my other ultimate.

No Nightblade skills on that list I notice, my NB would complain, there are at least two skills all NBs use, Teleport Strike and siphoning.

1. Do you PvP?
2. What ultimates do you use on your DK? I'm curious because I've found Standard just too good not to keep on one bar at all times.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

Rosveen wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

So that everyone is not running

Scales
Dragonsblood
Talons
Blazing shield
Bolt Escape
Banner

I'll admit to Dragons's Blood and just unlocked Reflective Scales, but I don't use the others.

My Templar doesn't use Blazing shield, in fact apart from Biting Jabs he's quite atypical, he's only just started learning his healing line (VR2 BTW).
My Sorc only used Bolt escape in the Molag Bal fight, otherwise it's not on the bar.
Is Banner a DK skill, if so it's on the bar, but not actually used, I really need to change it back to my other ultimate.

No Nightblade skills on that list I notice, my NB would complain, there are at least two skills all NBs use, Teleport Strike and siphoning.

1. Do you PvP?
2. What ultimates do you use on your DK? I'm curious because I've found Standard just too good not to keep on one bar at all times.

1. No I'm a PVEr, I did try PVP but got kill in seconds, actually miles away from the fighting (just didn't get there).
2. Magma Armour and even then only when I'm in serious trouble. Mostly I'm kiting and using Dragon's Blood, Lava Whip and Fire Breath. It's not that I dislike the DK ultimates persay, it's just I'm playing fine without them, and as a rule I save Ultimates for ermergencies (I used them up once too often on my Templar and Sorceror).

Sord · November 2014

I was and still am one who advocates for a classless style game and I understand the need for balancing, and what not, but even in a class based system there is always one class that outshines the others, and the second and so on. What would need to happen is a total revamp of class power lines if it were to be opened up.

However at this point I think the introduction of morphing classes would be the way to go as I state in this post here. So basically each class (Templar, Night Blade, Sorc, and Dragon Knight) would get at lvl 50 (or whenever) would get 3 new class choices which would introduce 3 new powers that would distinguish then to become something like this:

Nightblade could Morph into Ranger, Assassin, Thief, or Scout.
Templar (I don't know the lore in Elder Scrolls for templars but because they are healers and warriors)could Morph into a Crusader, Priest, Sentinel, Warrior.
Dragon Knight could morph into Barbarian, Demon Slayer, Berserker, Dreadnaught.
Sorcerer could morph into a Wizard, Necromancer, Witch or Warlock

Just some ideas

This I think is how they need to make the current class system more open to people.

Misa · November 2014

I'd love to have something like in ffxiv where you can change your class when you'd like

Vizier · November 2014

LOL @ the concept that having classes is dumbing down the game.

In previous TES titles they have classes but that pretty much doesn't matter since you can level any skill to 100. By end game all player characters are godly at everything no matter how they play. It's open ended, unlimited variety and in the end the characters are all the same. I don't what that here.

One of the ways to limit my above concern is to have a limited point system such as exists now. You could allow for unlimited variety with limited points to distribute. On one hand that sounds pretty appealing. As I see it there is a danger with this approach. The theory crafters and min-maxers would dissect the skill trees and we'd pretty much see more complete cookie cutter "must have" builds using only the best skills from each tree with very little variation despite complete access to all skills. So in the end it doesn't enhance game play IMO to promote cookie cutter builds.

No, the answer is still in creating distinct classes with distinct strengths and weaknesses. IMO ZoS needs to embrace this and increase the distance between the classes to better promote their obvious roles, but not limit them utterly.

Example: You can still have a heavy armor sword slinging Sorcerer but there will be real penalties to the strength of their spells and their magika generation and or reductions in the utility gained from using heavy armor.

Likewise Dragon Knights could indeed be Skirt wearing staff wielders but they would not benefit the same as a sorcerer from Light armor and the sorcerer based skill lines.

Another approach would be to distinctly attach skill trees or classes with attributes and then based on either class or skill tree training the extra benefit gained by spending a skill point for an attribute would be effected. For example:

By training...
If a point was spent on a destruction staff or Sorcerer skill then when a point was spent on Magika the character would get up to 15 points instead of 10.

By class...
If a Sorcerer spends a skill point on Magika they'd get 15 points whereas the same skill point spent on health would only yield 10 points. The reverse would be true for a Dragon Knight. Templars would be somewhere in between with 12-13 for in Magika and or health per skill point spent and NB would receive added benefit from Stamina with lesser increased benefits for Magika.

Artis · November 2014

boggie wrote: »

If you can explain why you think skyrim online (95% of players running around with the exact same build) would be preferable to the current system, I'd love to hear it. There is a reason that classes are a standard MMO convention.

How were skyrim players using the same build? Something new. Yes, I'll explain you why a non-class system would be better.

Sure, it's a lot of fun, when you look around and see werewolves, archers, berserkers, mages, summoners, druids and all different kinds of characters. But it's stops being fun immediately if you chose the weakest class, if you chose the class whose play style just doesn't fit you, if you were misguided by the class description and when you hit level cap you saw that the class is not what it was supposed to be.

At that point I(and by "I" I mean a player) don't care about diversity. After all, why do I care what is someone else using and what are those things called? I just don't want to get killed instantly. I want to have an opportunity to use that skill that kills me, is it fair that someone is winning only because he chose another class? No, not really. Or what if I created a NB who was shown in medium armor and was the only class that had "blades" and such in its description and then it turned out that this class is pretty far from the master of weapons, that this class sucks in face-to-face combat, that a lot of passives are just useful if you don't follow a rogue archetype and that archetype is actually pretty weak and does NOT synergize with your class skills. If I want a weapon-master I go stamina, and if do that - I can't use my class skills a lot and they are nto that efficient, too.

So should I create a new character? Should I lose my 11k+ achievement points? Should I now do the same quests again to level my new character? And I should be happy that there's a class system in the game that claimed to be a TES descendant? How is that better and more fun? Can you explain this now? Why should I be happy that I either keep my progress and dont' have fun or lose all my progress, have to redo it again => still don't have fun.

The classes as they are in ESO are archaic. Screw that. I loved Skyrim because I DIDN'T HAVE to make choices. I could always re roll completely and keep my character, his name and progress. How is "meaning of the choices" supposed to be fun? Alright, we have only 5 skills on the bar. But why should I be forbidden to have some that others have?
If I am not supposed to have them together with some other ones... Okay, then let me switch between classes without mixing them. But being restricted forever without even account-wide achievements/mounts, etc... That is just depressing.

boggie · November 2014

Artemis wrote: »

How were skyrim players using the same build? Something new. Yes, I'll explain you why a non-class system would be better.

95% of skyrim players went with a bow/sneak playstyle (will update with source).

Sure, it's a lot of fun, when you look around and see werewolves, archers, berserkers, mages, summoners, druids and all different kinds of characters. But it's stops being fun immediately if you chose the weakest class, if you chose the class whose play style just doesn't fit you, if you were misguided by the class description and when you hit level cap you saw that the class is not what it was supposed to be.

Please show me where I said I was against balancing the classes that were in the game. And if you make it all the way to level cap before realizing that your chosen class doesn't fit your playstyle... I have to ask... just how high are you getting before logging in? I mean really... you should have a fairly good feel for how a character is going to play before leaving the second major zone at the latest. And if you were too lazy to do a quick scan of the class skill lines to see what they do (since... you know... you can fully examine them the moment you roll your character... or even before that if you take 30 seconds to do a quick google search) then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

At that point I(and by "I" I mean a player) don't care about diversity. After all, why do I care what is someone else using and what are those things called? I just don't want to get killed instantly. I want to have an opportunity to use that skill that kills me, is it fair that someone is winning only because he chose another class? No, not really. Or what if I created a NB who was shown in medium armor and was the only class that had "blades" and such in its description and then it turned out that this class is pretty far from the master of weapons, that this class sucks in face-to-face combat, that a lot of passives are just useful if you don't follow a rogue archetype and that archetype is actually pretty weak and does NOT synergize with your class skills. If I want a weapon-master I go stamina, and if do that - I can't use my class skills a lot and they are nto that efficient, too.

You are creating a false dilemma by implying that we have to choose between having classes and having balance. In reality, the reverse is opposite. With the system now, if, to use your example, nightblades make particularly weak stamina-based dps characters, the devs can (and should) take a look at the nightblade skill lines and make adjustments as needed. This is a process. It takes time. And it is never truly finished. Why? Because the developers, who are working to balance the game, are in a constant arms race against players who are constantly trying to find the next "broken" mechanic that can be exploited to improve personal performance. In a classless system, something like this happens, and not only is your chosen playstyle not viable on a certain percentage of the characters in the game. It's not viable on any character in the game. You haven't fixed the problem. You've made it worse.

Homogenization isn't a balance fix. It's a balance cop out.

So should I create a new character? Should I lose my 11k+ achievement points? Should I now do the same quests again to level my new character?

If you were paying attention to what the dev's have said is coming down the line with the champion system, you would know that before long, all of your lvl 50 characters will share a post-cap progression xp pool. So aside from the 3-50 stretch (which is a cakewalk), this is already being fixed for you. You're welcome.

As far as the achievement point thing goes, since it in no way affects your ability to experience or complete game content, or provides any benefit beyond unlocking colors (which are already cross character) I really don't see the issue here. It's just a flavor gauge for how much content a particular character has completed.

And I should be happy that there's a class system in the game that claimed to be a TES descendant? How is that better and more fun? Can you explain this now? Why should I be happy that I either keep my progress and dont' have fun or lose all my progress, have to redo it again => still don't have fun.

The classes as they are in ESO are archaic. Screw that. I loved Skyrim because I DIDN'T HAVE to make choices. I could always re roll completely and keep my character, his name and progress. How is "meaning of the choices" supposed to be fun? Alright, we have only 5 skills on the bar. But why should I be forbidden to have some that others have?
If I am not supposed to have them together with some other ones... Okay, then let me switch between classes without mixing them. But being restricted forever without even account-wide achievements/mounts, etc... That is just depressing.

Yes... because classes have never been in elder scrolls games...

TES Arena classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Arena)

TES Daggerfall classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Daggerfall)

TES Morrowind classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Morrowind)

TES Oblivion classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Oblivion)

You didn't have to make choices in Skyrim? Were we playing the same game? Where was this magical reroll feature that let you keep all your character's progress? Until they added the ability to reset a skill's xp so that you could keep leveling (which, if this is what you are thinking of, just refunded the points spent on the single skill you reset, which had to be maxed, and then had to be completely releveled, so you hardly "kept all your progress") all choices you made about a character were permanent. You didn't have the option of strolling into town, dropping some gold, and changing your mind about every build decision you'd made since first zoning in at level 3 like you can in ESO. You want ESO to use skyrim's system? No respec, or respec with xp reset? I didn't think so.

To be clear- any time one of the 4 classes cannot be played effectively at endgame in one of the 3 roles (so templars not being able to dps or dk's not being able to heal) there is a problem that needs to be addressed. However, the way to address that problem isn't by making everyone the same. It's by making everyone's unique contribution valuable. If they had everything perfect, a person forming a group would have a hard time choosing between a sorc or a templar for that last dps slot, not because they both do the exact same numbers (though they should be close), but because both bring something unique to a party that the other cannot.

Cuyler · November 2014

Why are there even "classes" in ESO?

It was so sorcs could be put in a corner and be repeatedly hit with the nerf bat while being forced to spam its one remaining useful class skill - negate.

Artis · November 2014

boggie wrote: »

95% of skyrim players went with a bow/sneak playstyle (will update with source).

Never played one. Played a berserker in light armor with 2 axes. My friend played as a mage. Another friend played a battle mage. Please, prove your words. I don't believe in your 95% thing. You see? According to my sample - 0% played a sneaky character. Sure, it's not representative, but your 95% is only based on your words at all.

boggie wrote: »

Please show me where I said I was against balancing the classes that were in the game. And if you make it all the way to level cap before realizing that your chosen class doesn't fit your playstyle... I have to ask... just how high are you getting before logging in? I mean really... you should have a fairly good feel for how a character is going to play before leaving the second major zone at the latest. And if you were too lazy to do a quick scan of the class skill lines to see what they do (since... you know... you can fully examine them the moment you roll your character... or even before that if you take 30 seconds to do a quick google search) then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

Where did I say you were against? But we all know, that balancing the classes is impossible. There was no game with perfect PvP balance. Are you high yourself though? Did you play the game 1-50? ANY CLASS can support ANY STYLE at these levels. Successfully. I had ABSOLUTELY no problem playing the way I liked. I did feel like a guy who's cool in face-to-face combat and stuff. It was at the level cap, when I found out that stamina builds are sub par in PvE. IT was at the level cap when I found out that in PvP you need to be tanky with self heals. That if you're not a DK, shield stacking sorc or blazing shield spamming templar - you suck. How is that unrealistic to believe that I could not know those things when I was creating a character?

boggie wrote: »

You are creating a false dilemma by implying that we have to choose between having classes and having balance. In reality, the reverse is opposite. With the system now, if, to use your example, nightblades make particularly weak stamina-based dps characters, the devs can (and should) take a look at the nightblade skill lines and make adjustments as needed. This is a process. It takes time. And it is never truly finished. Why? Because the developers, who are working to balance the game, are in a constant arms race against players who are constantly trying to find the next "broken" mechanic that can be exploited to improve personal performance. In a classless system, something like this happens, and not only is your chosen playstyle not viable on a certain percentage of the characters in the game. It's not viable on any character in the game. You haven't fixed the problem. You've made it worse.

Homogenization isn't a balance fix. It's a balance cop out.

SO how much time should it take? And why should I pay a sub fee during that time if I am forced to play the way I don't like playing? Are you saying, that I should be happy that it's a never finished process? Why can sorcs stack shields, templars oneshot with blazing shields and that's not being fixed for months and I should be happy that there is a class system as a NB? If they don't even attempt to at least change balance so that NBs are OP for some time too?

YES! I did fix the main problem! And the main problem that I at least have a choice to employ the viable play style. I CAN ALWAYS DO THAT with a classless system. I dont' even care if all playstyles are viable. It's much worse, that players who picked wrong classes can not be viable at all. That needs to be solved first. In this case, at least, if they can't balance stuff for a long time, I won't be the worst all the time if I don't choose to stick to my play style (however unviable it is) - I can always take, say, blazing shield. Then, I can't complain about some other class having some OP skill which I can't use and which they use against me, then, EVERYBODY will be in the same conditions. Justice for all.

You still haven't answered, how is it better for A PLAYER that he has to be on the bottom until his class is buffed? How is it better for me that there are different builds around if most of them just destroy me? For example, just to picture it, let's imagine that blazing shield can be spammed and deal 5k damage in one shot. OK, there can be many templars builds. But they can always take this one ability that will oneshot my Nightblade or Sorc (if I don't stack shields) or DK (maybe lol). Why should I want it to stay like that for MONTHS without being fixed? Why don't you think, that it's better for a player if he has a choice and freedom to use it not to be sub par?

Then again, let me repeat myself, if they are afraid that there will be one Ultimate combination if I can mix all the class skills, then just let me change the class of my character. So easy.

boggie wrote: »

If you were paying attention to what the dev's have said is coming down the line with the champion system, you would know that before long, all of your lvl 50 characters will share a post-cap progression xp pool. So aside from the 3-50 stretch (which is a cakewalk), this is already being fixed for you. You're welcome.

As far as the achievement point thing goes, since it in no way affects your ability to experience or complete game content, or provides any benefit beyond unlocking colors (which are already cross character) I really don't see the issue here. It's just a flavor gauge for how much content a particular character has completed.

Really? Thank you. If that's true, it will be awesome. Now let me ask more questions to clarify if that's what it should be.

So you're saying, that when I create a new character I will already have Cadwell's silver and gold completed, all the dungeons unlocked, etc. Will I be able to travel all over Tamriel? Will I have all the quests completed? Oh no, wait, I will have to do all that again to level up. I'll have to do THE SAME thing again. WHy should it be fun for a player? So archaic. It's the PLAYER who plays the game, not his character. It's the PLAYER who does the quests. Why should I do them again? Or maybe I should mindlessly grind mobs to level up? Is that fun?

And yes, call it a flavor gauge, whatever. Why do you think I should not be allowed to press J, go to the achievements tab and see how much things I completed. After that WAS ME completing these things. Not my character.

Yes... because classes have never been in elder scrolls games...

TES Arena classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Arena)

TES Daggerfall classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Daggerfall)

TES Morrowind classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Morrowind)

TES Oblivion classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Oblivion)

Yes, they haven't been restricted for 10 years or more. Have you even played Morrowind or Oblivion? I don't think you have if you're saying such things. I have NEVER been restricted by the classes. Classes ONLY defined how I start the game, I could max everything out so that I can play any class in the end. I never was forbidden to use some skills if I picked a certain class. That just makes NO SENSE in the TES Universe. Why can't my character summon daedras AND steal life at the same time? Or go invisible? Naha, starting morrowind there were NO CLASSES like they are in ESO.
I think, you should play the games first, not just post links if you don't know what they mean and what that "Classes" word stands for.

You didn't have to make choices in Skyrim? Were we playing the same game? Where was this magical reroll feature that let you keep all your character's progress? Until they added the ability to reset a skill's xp so that you could keep leveling (which, if this is what you are thinking of, just refunded the points spent on the single skill you reset, which had to be maxed, and then had to be completely releveled, so you hardly "kept all your progress") all choices you made about a character were permanent. You didn't have the option of strolling into town, dropping some gold, and changing your mind about every build decision you'd made since first zoning in at level 3 like you can in ESO. You want ESO to use skyrim's system? No respec, or respec with xp reset? I didn't think so.

Sure, Skyrim's system.How do you use wiki only to prove your points, not to actually get information? http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Skills_(Skyrim)
Scroll to "Legendary skills". " They allow the player to reset their character's skills, so that they can retrain them to gain additional perks, respec perks and continue leveling."
I don't care which system they use. I just don't want to be forced to level more characters to try all the skills to find out which class I like more. And I can only find out if I play a class at the level cap, obviously, because everything is "balanced"(not) for the end-game content.

To be clear- any time one of the 4 classes cannot be played effectively at endgame in one of the 3 roles (so templars not being able to dps or dk's not being able to heal) there is a problem that needs to be addressed. However, the way to address that problem isn't by making everyone the same. It's by making everyone's unique contribution valuable. If they had everything perfect, a person forming a group would have a hard time choosing between a sorc or a templar for that last dps slot, not because they both do the exact same numbers (though they should be close), but because both bring something unique to a party that the other cannot.

Sure, if they can make EVERY class contribute EQUALLY and be viable doing ANY role AND task - it's already good. But then again, the problem with not being able to try everything with one character wouldn't go anywhere.
So far, we played for about 7 months, and NBs are still pretty weak in PvP/face-to-face combat/can not heal self like DKs or temps, which results in not being able to perform some tasks that other tanks can perform equally as good (see most of the videos of the last fight in Veteran DSA, where a tank takes the boss away from the group and survives his attacks and his fire DoT without a healer). Templars, in general, are still much better than other in heals and weaker as DPS (no one wants them to dps). DKs are still the best in every aspect of the game except for healing. Sorcs still can spam BE.

So, if they can't balance the classes, if they can't make them equal (not the same, equal) in different aspects of the game... Then why is it better for me to not be able to change my class? Of course, I expected that my class will be effective, that's how they positioned their game. So if they lied, why can't I have a compensation?

At least until they balance the classes. Then they can remove that feature (to "respec" classes, even without mixing different classes's skill lines, whatever).

Valen_Byte · November 2014

Classes are because of PVP. The end.

Gyudan · November 2014

Artemis wrote: »

boggie wrote: »

95% of skyrim players went with a bow/sneak playstyle (will update with source).

Never played one. Played a berserker in light armor with 2 axes. My friend played as a mage. Another friend played a battle mage. Please, prove your words. I don't believe in your 95% thing. You see? According to my sample - 0% played a sneaky character. Sure, it's not representative, but your 95% is only based on your words at all.

boggie wrote: »

Please show me where I said I was against balancing the classes that were in the game. And if you make it all the way to level cap before realizing that your chosen class doesn't fit your playstyle... I have to ask... just how high are you getting before logging in? I mean really... you should have a fairly good feel for how a character is going to play before leaving the second major zone at the latest. And if you were too lazy to do a quick scan of the class skill lines to see what they do (since... you know... you can fully examine them the moment you roll your character... or even before that if you take 30 seconds to do a quick google search) then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

Where did I say you were against? But we all know, that balancing the classes is impossible. There was no game with perfect PvP balance. Are you high yourself though? Did you play the game 1-50? ANY CLASS can support ANY STYLE at these levels. Successfully. I had ABSOLUTELY no problem playing the way I liked. I did feel like a guy who's cool in face-to-face combat and stuff. It was at the level cap, when I found out that stamina builds are sub par in PvE. IT was at the level cap when I found out that in PvP you need to be tanky with self heals. That if you're not a DK, shield stacking sorc or blazing shield spamming templar - you suck. How is that unrealistic to believe that I could not know those things when I was creating a character?

boggie wrote: »

You are creating a false dilemma by implying that we have to choose between having classes and having balance. In reality, the reverse is opposite. With the system now, if, to use your example, nightblades make particularly weak stamina-based dps characters, the devs can (and should) take a look at the nightblade skill lines and make adjustments as needed. This is a process. It takes time. And it is never truly finished. Why? Because the developers, who are working to balance the game, are in a constant arms race against players who are constantly trying to find the next "broken" mechanic that can be exploited to improve personal performance. In a classless system, something like this happens, and not only is your chosen playstyle not viable on a certain percentage of the characters in the game. It's not viable on any character in the game. You haven't fixed the problem. You've made it worse.

Homogenization isn't a balance fix. It's a balance cop out.

SO how much time should it take? And why should I pay a sub fee during that time if I am forced to play the way I don't like playing? Are you saying, that I should be happy that it's a never finished process? Why can sorcs stack shields, templars oneshot with blazing shields and that's not being fixed for months and I should be happy that there is a class system as a NB? If they don't even attempt to at least change balance so that NBs are OP for some time too?

YES! I did fix the main problem! And the main problem that I at least have a choice to employ the viable play style. I CAN ALWAYS DO THAT with a classless system. I dont' even care if all playstyles are viable. It's much worse, that players who picked wrong classes can not be viable at all. That needs to be solved first. In this case, at least, if they can't balance stuff for a long time, I won't be the worst all the time if I don't choose to stick to my play style (however unviable it is) - I can always take, say, blazing shield. Then, I can't complain about some other class having some OP skill which I can't use and which they use against me, then, EVERYBODY will be in the same conditions. Justice for all.

You still haven't answered, how is it better for A PLAYER that he has to be on the bottom until his class is buffed? How is it better for me that there are different builds around if most of them just destroy me? For example, just to picture it, let's imagine that blazing shield can be spammed and deal 5k damage in one shot. OK, there can be many templars builds. But they can always take this one ability that will oneshot my Nightblade or Sorc (if I don't stack shields) or DK (maybe lol). Why should I want it to stay like that for MONTHS without being fixed? Why don't you think, that it's better for a player if he has a choice and freedom to use it not to be sub par?

Then again, let me repeat myself, if they are afraid that there will be one Ultimate combination if I can mix all the class skills, then just let me change the class of my character. So easy.

boggie wrote: »

If you were paying attention to what the dev's have said is coming down the line with the champion system, you would know that before long, all of your lvl 50 characters will share a post-cap progression xp pool. So aside from the 3-50 stretch (which is a cakewalk), this is already being fixed for you. You're welcome.

As far as the achievement point thing goes, since it in no way affects your ability to experience or complete game content, or provides any benefit beyond unlocking colors (which are already cross character) I really don't see the issue here. It's just a flavor gauge for how much content a particular character has completed.

Really? Thank you. If that's true, it will be awesome. Now let me ask more questions to clarify if that's what it should be.

So you're saying, that when I create a new character I will already have Cadwell's silver and gold completed, all the dungeons unlocked, etc. Will I be able to travel all over Tamriel? Will I have all the quests completed? Oh no, wait, I will have to do all that again to level up. I'll have to do THE SAME thing again. WHy should it be fun for a player? So archaic. It's the PLAYER who plays the game, not his character. It's the PLAYER who does the quests. Why should I do them again? Or maybe I should mindlessly grind mobs to level up? Is that fun?

And yes, call it a flavor gauge, whatever. Why do you think I should not be allowed to press J, go to the achievements tab and see how much things I completed. After that WAS ME completing these things. Not my character.

Yes... because classes have never been in elder scrolls games...

TES Arena classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Arena)

TES Daggerfall classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Daggerfall)

TES Morrowind classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Morrowind)

TES Oblivion classes
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes_(Oblivion)

Yes, they haven't been restricted for 10 years or more. Have you even played Morrowind or Oblivion? I don't think you have if you're saying such things. I have NEVER been restricted by the classes. Classes ONLY defined how I start the game, I could max everything out so that I can play any class in the end. I never was forbidden to use some skills if I picked a certain class. That just makes NO SENSE in the TES Universe. Why can't my character summon daedras AND steal life at the same time? Or go invisible? Naha, starting morrowind there were NO CLASSES like they are in ESO.
I think, you should play the games first, not just post links if you don't know what they mean and what that "Classes" word stands for.

You didn't have to make choices in Skyrim? Were we playing the same game? Where was this magical reroll feature that let you keep all your character's progress? Until they added the ability to reset a skill's xp so that you could keep leveling (which, if this is what you are thinking of, just refunded the points spent on the single skill you reset, which had to be maxed, and then had to be completely releveled, so you hardly "kept all your progress") all choices you made about a character were permanent. You didn't have the option of strolling into town, dropping some gold, and changing your mind about every build decision you'd made since first zoning in at level 3 like you can in ESO. You want ESO to use skyrim's system? No respec, or respec with xp reset? I didn't think so.

Sure, Skyrim's system.How do you use wiki only to prove your points, not to actually get information? http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Skills_(Skyrim)
Scroll to "Legendary skills". " They allow the player to reset their character's skills, so that they can retrain them to gain additional perks, respec perks and continue leveling."
I don't care which system they use. I just don't want to be forced to level more characters to try all the skills to find out which class I like more. And I can only find out if I play a class at the level cap, obviously, because everything is "balanced"(not) for the end-game content.

To be clear- any time one of the 4 classes cannot be played effectively at endgame in one of the 3 roles (so templars not being able to dps or dk's not being able to heal) there is a problem that needs to be addressed. However, the way to address that problem isn't by making everyone the same. It's by making everyone's unique contribution valuable. If they had everything perfect, a person forming a group would have a hard time choosing between a sorc or a templar for that last dps slot, not because they both do the exact same numbers (though they should be close), but because both bring something unique to a party that the other cannot.

Sure, if they can make EVERY class contribute EQUALLY and be viable doing ANY role AND task - it's already good. But then again, the problem with not being able to try everything with one character wouldn't go anywhere.
So far, we played for about 7 months, and NBs are still pretty weak in PvP/face-to-face combat/can not heal self like DKs or temps, which results in not being able to perform some tasks that other tanks can perform equally as good (see most of the videos of the last fight in Veteran DSA, where a tank takes the boss away from the group and survives his attacks and his fire DoT without a healer). Templars, in general, are still much better than other in heals and weaker as DPS (no one wants them to dps). DKs are still the best in every aspect of the game except for healing. Sorcs still can spam BE.

So, if they can't balance the classes, if they can't make them equal (not the same, equal) in different aspects of the game... Then why is it better for me to not be able to change my class? Of course, I expected that my class will be effective, that's how they positioned their game. So if they lied, why can't I have a compensation? At least until they balance the classes. Then they can remove that feature (to "respec" classes, even without mixing different classes's skill lines, whatever).

Thanks for the clarifications @Artemis

I would fully support a change back to a system without classes. With the Champion System, players can have 1 specialized character for each role (1 DPS, 1 tank, 1 healer, maybe 1 stamina DPS, 1 crafter, ...) without impairing replayability.

ZOS, please consider that change!

Artis · November 2014

Hopefully, they can remove more restrictions.

Actually, I'm kind of concerned about that system. They said, the champion points will be account-wide. Which means, if I took points to maximize the efficiency of my tank, that means that my DPS or healer will be far from optimal, so I would have to respec all my champion points, which kind of ruins what they did with giving us a lot of skill points so we can have skills and run more than one role without respeccing at all.

Just saying

p.s. but yeah, what you say makes sense.. Why wouldn't they let us players freely switch between classes? It would be nice

Gyudan · November 2014

Artemis wrote: »

Hopefully, they can remove more restrictions.
Actually, I'm kind of concerned about that system. They said, the champion points will be account-wide. Which means, if I took points to maximize the efficiency of my tank, that means that my DPS or healer will be far from optimal, so I would have to respec all my champion points, which kind of ruins what they did with giving us a lot of skill points so we can have skills and run more than one role without respeccing at all.

Just saying
p.s. but yeah, what you say makes sense.. Why wouldn't they let us players freely switch between classes? It would be nice

Well, as I understood it from the Guild Summit "Podcast" and the 2 hour presentation on the champion system that featured a lot of pie, we will get champion points for the whole account and will be able to apply these differently for all characters.
For example, if you have 600 champion points:
- character 1 could have 200 used in armor, 200 in max health, 200 in healing taken
- character 2 could have 200 in magicka cost reduction, 200 in max magicka, 200 in magicka recovery

Did this get changed along the way?

Vizier · November 2014

Holy Wall of Text...LOL

Q: You know how a Vacuum Cleaner Salesman sells a $2000 vacuum to someone that doesn't want to spend $2000?

A: They force their target to reach their dirt tolerance level by continuously placing dirt pulled from their own carpet right in front of them. They suck it through the vacuum onto a little cloth stretched across the vacuum hose. They keep doing this and place them around their "customer" until they can't stand being around so much dirt, all the while having electron microscope pictures of dust mites visible. (nasty looking things dust mites.) So the customer reaches their "dirt tolerance level" and just buys the damn thing.

That's kind of how this thread feels. Just keep sucking dirt and dust mites until people give in to buying a bad $2000 idea. Just saying spending $2000 for a vacuum is really dumb.

Gyudan · November 2014

Vizier wrote: »

Holy Wall of Text...LOL

Q: You know how a Vacuum Cleaner Salesman sells a $2000 vacuum to someone that doesn't want to spend $2000?

A: They force their target to reach their dirt tolerance level by continuously placing dirt pulled from their own carpet right in front of them. They suck it through the vacuum onto a little cloth stretched across the vacuum hose. They keep doing this and place them around their "customer" until they can't stand being around so much dirt, all the while having electron microscope pictures of dust mites visible. (nasty looking things dust mites.) So the customer reaches their "dirt tolerance level" and just buys the damn thing.

That's kind of how this thread feels. Just keep sucking dirt and dust mites until people give in to buying a bad $2000 idea. Just saying spending $2000 for a vacuum is really dumb.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on vacuum cleaner sales.

Getting rid of classes would actually simplify the games and put an end to complaints about certain classes being clearly stronger than others. Some of the content would have to be slightly adjusted to make up for the superposition of passives from all trees but in the end this change would help ESO feel more like the other ES games.

Could this be confusing for beginners? Yes of course.
So, for example, start Lvl 1-50 as it is now, with a specific class, then at VR1, get access to another classe's abilities, and again at VR5 and VR10.

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

It would have been better if they had made classes something like advanced lines. Maybe where you did a quest to unlock the class skill lines and needed prerequisites like sorcerer needs to max destruction staff, light armor and mages guild line or DK needs to max destruction staff, fighter's guild and heavy armor. Those are just examples but the point is that this issue of class balance stems from a very bad decision to include classes. They obviously thought that the player base wouldn't know how to handle a game without classes and we needed this crutch. Not enough people made a stink about this until it was too late. So now they have the challenge of not just adjusting the balance between magicka and stamina based weapons abilities but also class abilities and how they factor into that. They actually made it far more complicated than it ever had to be.

Artis · November 2014

Gyudan wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Hopefully, they can remove more restrictions.
Actually, I'm kind of concerned about that system. They said, the champion points will be account-wide. Which means, if I took points to maximize the efficiency of my tank, that means that my DPS or healer will be far from optimal, so I would have to respec all my champion points, which kind of ruins what they did with giving us a lot of skill points so we can have skills and run more than one role without respeccing at all.

Just saying
p.s. but yeah, what you say makes sense.. Why wouldn't they let us players freely switch between classes? It would be nice

Well, as I understood it from the Guild Summit "Podcast" and the 2 hour presentation on the champion system that featured a lot of pie, we will get champion points for the whole account and will be able to apply these differently for all characters.
For example, if you have 600 champion points:
- character 1 could have 200 used in armor, 200 in max health, 200 in healing taken
- character 2 could have 200 in magicka cost reduction, 200 in max magicka, 200 in magicka recovery

Did this get changed along the way?

I don't know, but if it's going to be like you said - then it's perfect! Thanks for the info. Now I'm less afraid

Vizier · November 2014

Gyudan wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Holy Wall of Text...LOL

Q: You know how a Vacuum Cleaner Salesman sells a $2000 vacuum to someone that doesn't want to spend $2000?

A: They force their target to reach their dirt tolerance level by continuously placing dirt pulled from their own carpet right in front of them. They suck it through the vacuum onto a little cloth stretched across the vacuum hose. They keep doing this and place them around their "customer" until they can't stand being around so much dirt, all the while having electron microscope pictures of dust mites visible. (nasty looking things dust mites.) So the customer reaches their "dirt tolerance level" and just buys the damn thing.

That's kind of how this thread feels. Just keep sucking dirt and dust mites until people give in to buying a bad $2000 idea. Just saying spending $2000 for a vacuum is really dumb.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on vacuum cleaner sales.

Getting rid of classes would actually simplify the games and put an end to complaints about certain classes being clearly stronger than others. Some of the content would have to be slightly adjusted to make up for the superposition of passives from all trees but in the end this change would help ESO feel more like the other ES games.

Could this be confusing for beginners? Yes of course.
So, for example, start Lvl 1-50 as it is now, with a specific class, then at VR1, get access to another classe's abilities, and again at VR5 and VR10.

Read it again and tell me it's about selling vacuum cleaners.

Sorry Bro. Very bad idea IMO. Each class has it's own synergies, strengths and weaknesses. Creating a fully open uncompartmentalized system would just lead to characters all being the same once the numbers got crunched.

Just what we need. Bolt Escaping, Tanky DPSing Shadow Cloaking flame lashing Healers. Wow...No thanks.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO · November 2014

boggie wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

So are you saying now it's not like that? People that want to go in groups as DPS and were unlucky to pick Templars are struggling. And there is almost no way for them to change it unless they reroll.
Classless system gives freedom and equality - EVERYONE would have an opportunity to roll a build that would be on par with others (provided, they have skills). Now, say, as a NB I can only cry and regret that I didn't pick a DK when I see how they PvP and how they can tank the last fight in Vet DSA with that insane selfheal that lets them pull the boss away from the group, survive and come back.

The classless system would balance itself in the sense that the players who are struggling can easily change their build and then there will be nothing to complain about except for demands to make more build viable lol. But is it different now? Now it's not. So what's the point in having the class system if not what I said earlier in this topic? Money, making people pay more if they want to try another class's skill lines or reroll... Because now, if I want to reroll not only I need to level new character, I also need to get 11k achievement points so that at some point I can say: "Okay, now I finally keep progressing". It's just so archaic.

I never said that the game in its current state is perfectly balanced. You are missing my point entirely. What I am saying is that forcing players to chose one out of a particular number of skillsets promotes build diversity and gives meaning to the choices you make regarding your skill loadout beyond what color you want your particle effects to be. In a multiplayer game, bringing something to the table that not every other player has is a good thing. Remove that, and you may as well delete every skill in the game beyond having 1 single target dps ability, 1 aoe dps ability, 1 armor buff, 1 group heal, etc. Remove classes and suddenly every dps who isn't running the single most optimal build is now a liability to their party.

Of course the game still needs balancing. It's less than a year old, for god's sake. There are games that have been out 5 years or more (not naming names, I'm sure we can all think of a few) that are still horribly unbalanced. But to say "the classes as they are now have some imbalances, let's just get rid of them entirely and let everyone use every skill" is dumbing the game down to a preschool level. It removes all significance of choice. It totally invalidates any "uniqueness" to build or playstyle... for all intents and purposes, it totally removes the need to have skills in the first place. Just strip out all skills and let us run around with nothing but mouse attacks. That's about the depth of gameplay you would get. It would absolutely destroy the game.

If you can explain why you think skyrim online (95% of players running around with the exact same build) would be preferable to the current system, I'd love to hear it. There is a reason that classes are a standard MMO convention.

---

Becuse they *** up!

Rune_Relic · November 2014

TheLaw wrote: »

I totally agree. If they push classes on us, we might as well be able to obtain other class ability's. That's where spellcrafting will save us.

You know I never even looked at spellcrafting that way.
When you think about it weapons are class independant yet all class skill are spells.
So if you wanted to have a classless system then you need an alternative spell set to the class system that goes with the weapons.
Fighters/mages guild go someway toward that....but a pitiful collection compared to the class system.
So it does make sense now...

deepseamk20b14_ESO · November 2014

I think classes are fine. Though it would of been cool to just start as the souless players we are and all class trees are open to us. We choose what we want and advance in the trees we want but are not stuck to just one. O well though, no point in discussing a system that will never change. However, perhaps the champion system will at least give us a nice taste of more advanced class mixing.

Artis · December 2014

Vizier wrote: »

Sorry Bro. Very bad idea IMO. Each class has it's own synergies, strengths and weaknesses. Creating a fully open uncompartmentalized system would just lead to characters all being the same once the numbers got crunched.

Just what we need. Bolt Escaping, Tanky DPSing Shadow Cloaking flame lashing Healers. Wow...No thanks.

That's exactly what we need. If someone will put all that on his bar - he will be killed easily. Don't forget, a player only has access to his action bars. And skills are scaled of his stats/gear. One can not be good tank/dps/heals at the same time.

chipputer · December 2014

I don't see how you can support the homogenization of the game.

As it stands, now, I'm running a Templar healer that can off-tank. This is exactly what I intended this character to do. With a few changes to my build I can pull respectable DPS, though it would require different accessories and running a destro staff (I'm a mage person, not a weapon person). Before this I was running a sorcerer tank that could easily transition into a DPS or healing build by simply running DW (with magical backup) or a resto staff (which I was running anyway).

See, your problem is that you're speaking from the perspective of someone who has run into multiple min/maxers, elitists, jerks, or what-have-you that seems to believe that you need to pull 2k+ DPS in order to be viable at your job. This isn't true. The math has been done multiple times and shown that generally you don't need much more than 450 dps in most situations and that's not even hard to get.

Regardless, as a healing templar, I often find myself in plenty of situations where I can do the following rotation: Power of the Light, Vampire's Bane, Dark Flare ~4 times until Power of the Light needs to be up again. Guess what happens, here? While my personal DPS isn't as high as everyone elses, I'm adding to their power with Dark Flare, essentially adding just as much to the raid as they are, regardless of what the numbers of any add-ons are saying. Not viable for DPS? Only viable for healing, maybe tanking? I beg to differ, sir.

Now, PvP? To imply that a templar shouldn't have to spam certain skills and heals is probably the dumbest thing I've seen. PvP is about reacting to the skills and abilities of your enemies. If you don't want to run Blazing Shield, that's fine, but that's not going to stop your enemies from ganging up on you and destroying your health. This isn't a problem at all. Your solution would only serve to add Blazing Shield to every single player, who would then utilize it to its full potential on top of things like Reflective Scales in order to become virtually untouchable. Or Streak. Or that nightblade invisibility skill. Anything useful, really.

You're implying that it's unbalanced that a DK can use all of their best survivability skills to... survive just because a nightblade can't use those same skills. Yet that same nightblade can catch that DK off guard with their multiple sneak attack methods and absolutely destroy the DK before the DK has a chance to react and get away from their buddies with barely any consequence if they planned appropriately. How is this unbalanced?

SanderBuraas · December 2014

Artemis wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Sorry Bro. Very bad idea IMO. Each class has it's own synergies, strengths and weaknesses. Creating a fully open uncompartmentalized system would just lead to characters all being the same once the numbers got crunched.

Just what we need. Bolt Escaping, Tanky DPSing Shadow Cloaking flame lashing Healers. Wow...No thanks.

That's exactly what we need. If someone will put all that on his bar - he will be killed easily. Don't forget, a player only has access to his action bars. And skills are scaled of his stats/gear. One can not be good tank/dps/heals at the same time.

A multiplayer game will not work as well as a singleplayer game with no classes. What makes Elder Scrolls Online unique is that the classes do not lock you into one role of gameplay, they simply allow you to play a role in different ways based on your class. You can for example play as an archer regardless of class.

As mentioned before, if everyone could choose from every current class spell in the game, it would support the idea of one superior build which everyone would want to use, as was done in Skyrim. Competetive players, which there are many of in a mmo, strive to have the best array of spells possible, especially with pvp enabled. Classes provide limitation along with more diversion between players.

Darlgon · December 2014

Some of you guys are so cute. Have not been looking at ESO for over a year have you? Original Alpha and early Beta ESO had no classes. They added classes as a concession to PLAYERS DEMANDS that they could not play without having classes. They felt people from MMOs would not be able to process the classless ESO system.

I cant find a source right now. Guess it was in the Beta forums. But this is from exactly a year ago:

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/12/04/creating-eso-designing-skill-lines

ESO Official Site wrote:

A question we often see is, “Why not go classless?” In the end, keeping class skill lines exclusive while opening many other skill lines to everyone worked best—choices stay important, but everyone has freedom to choose from a large pool of options. It helps us encourage diversity while still providing choices, and it allowed us to emphasize multiplayer strategy—members of the different classes have access to their own skill lines, which creates opportunities for you to work with your allies, coordinating your unique skills and adding depth and variety to team gameplay.

Your class is an important decision to make, but it doesn’t chain you to any one playstyle. Every class has three of its own skill lines, each with different skills that are thematically related to the class. Combine those three with the many, many other lines available to every character, and each member of a particular class can be wildly different from the next. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to spend a single point in your class lines. However, you’ll know when you see a Templar who has decided to focus on his or her class abilities.

Francescolg · December 2014

I don't want to make you, Dark Flare- and Power of the Light-Templar fanboys, mad BUT the mage guild passive talent/skill "+20% magic damage within the next 6 seconds" is much better than "+50 spell/weapon dmg"

So think about pushing a mage-guild skill every 6 seconds, no matter if pvp or pve!

Second for DPS try just Bow, because your dps will still be waaay better than some magic skills that do mediocre dmg, while I would consider BOW crits from 1000-1500 dmg NORMAL DD DMG atm. This is just my personal opinion. A DD that crits for 700, 800, 900 is SUBPAR dmg compared to many other rotations

Artis · December 2014

chipputer wrote: »

I don't see how you can support the homogenization of the game.

As it stands, now, I'm running a Templar healer that can off-tank. This is exactly what I intended this character to do. With a few changes to my build I can pull respectable DPS, though it would require different accessories and running a destro staff (I'm a mage person, not a weapon person). Before this I was running a sorcerer tank that could easily transition into a DPS or healing build by simply running DW (with magical backup) or a resto staff (which I was running anyway).

See, your problem is that you're speaking from the perspective of someone who has run into multiple min/maxers, elitists, jerks, or what-have-you that seems to believe that you need to pull 2k+ DPS in order to be viable at your job. This isn't true. The math has been done multiple times and shown that generally you don't need much more than 450 dps in most situations and that's not even hard to get.

Regardless, as a healing templar, I often find myself in plenty of situations where I can do the following rotation: Power of the Light, Vampire's Bane, Dark Flare ~4 times until Power of the Light needs to be up again. Guess what happens, here? While my personal DPS isn't as high as everyone elses, I'm adding to their power with Dark Flare, essentially adding just as much to the raid as they are, regardless of what the numbers of any add-ons are saying. Not viable for DPS? Only viable for healing, maybe tanking? I beg to differ, sir.

Now, PvP? To imply that a templar shouldn't have to spam certain skills and heals is probably the dumbest thing I've seen. PvP is about reacting to the skills and abilities of your enemies. If you don't want to run Blazing Shield, that's fine, but that's not going to stop your enemies from ganging up on you and destroying your health. This isn't a problem at all. Your solution would only serve to add Blazing Shield to every single player, who would then utilize it to its full potential on top of things like Reflective Scales in order to become virtually untouchable. Or Streak. Or that nightblade invisibility skill. Anything useful, really.

You're implying that it's unbalanced that a DK can use all of their best survivability skills to... survive just because a nightblade can't use those same skills. Yet that same nightblade can catch that DK off guard with their multiple sneak attack methods and absolutely destroy the DK before the DK has a chance to react and get away from their buddies with barely any consequence if they planned appropriately. How is this unbalanced?

Yeah, the problem is that end-game PvE content has enrage mechanics and with that 450 dps you can keep doing pledges and maybe some of the fights in trials. I can't imagine how you can do vet dsa with that dps.

And no, I'm not saying 2k+ dps is must have, I never said that. But if I created my character at release and now want to join some hardcore guild as a templar dps - most likely they'll send me to level another toon. I never said that some of templar skills weren't viable for dps. No. The point is that other classes can play this role (DPS) better then templars and no one can heal better than templars, so why have dps-templars? And it's not my point of view - that's how MMO work. Other classes suffer from this discrimination, too. Tanking as a DK or a templar is SO MUCH easier than tanking as a NB or a sorc. Well, sorcs at least have some nice defensive buffs...NBs.. They are fun fighting trash packs

) But try to tank something when there's no healer around and your veil is gone.

Now, PvP. My solution would serve to put every single player in equal conditions, so the only factor that decides who win will be "skill".. and maybe intuition(which skills you have at your bar). Now some people have some really OP skills and others don't.
Also, NB can, theoretically, kill someone IF attacks from invisibility. However, in practice he can't kill most players fast and if they react with some defensive skill+self heal --- your NB won't do anything.
Even if he did - how does it contradict to what I said? I said, that they are worse than some other classes in face-to-face combat, i.e. no "catching off-guard".

Smepic wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Sorry Bro. Very bad idea IMO. Each class has it's own synergies, strengths and weaknesses. Creating a fully open uncompartmentalized system would just lead to characters all being the same once the numbers got crunched.

Just what we need. Bolt Escaping, Tanky DPSing Shadow Cloaking flame lashing Healers. Wow...No thanks.

That's exactly what we need. If someone will put all that on his bar - he will be killed easily. Don't forget, a player only has access to his action bars. And skills are scaled of his stats/gear. One can not be good tank/dps/heals at the same time.

A multiplayer game will not work as well as a singleplayer game with no classes. What makes Elder Scrolls Online unique is that the classes do not lock you into one role of gameplay, they simply allow you to play a role in different ways based on your class. You can for example play as an archer regardless of class.

As mentioned before, if everyone could choose from every current class spell in the game, it would support the idea of one superior build which everyone would want to use, as was done in Skyrim. Competetive players, which there are many of in a mmo, strive to have the best array of spells possible, especially with pvp enabled. Classes provide limitation along with more diversion between players.

Define "work well". With no classes all players will be in the same condition regardless of who ZoS decides to buff/nerf this month and regardless of which class they chose at release. All players can try everything. Awesome.
And diversity? Are you saying that's diverse now? When you come to the bank and see that fence "made of" parallel staves of ppl standing around an NPC?
Or if it was diverse... why should anyone care if other are playing the same build as him? I care much more that I simply can not do something just because I picked the wrong class and other can - because they picked the right class.

Darlgon wrote: »

Some of you guys are so cute. Have not been looking at ESO for over a year have you? Original Alpha and early Beta ESO had no classes. They added classes as a concession to PLAYERS DEMANDS that they could not play without having classes. They felt people from MMOs would not be able to process the classless ESO system.

I cant find a source right now. Guess it was in the Beta forums. But this is from exactly a year ago:

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/12/04/creating-eso-designing-skill-lines

ESO Official Site wrote:

A question we often see is, “Why not go classless?” In the end, keeping class skill lines exclusive while opening many other skill lines to everyone worked best—choices stay important, but everyone has freedom to choose from a large pool of options. It helps us encourage diversity while still providing choices, and it allowed us to emphasize multiplayer strategy—members of the different classes have access to their own skill lines, which creates opportunities for you to work with your allies, coordinating your unique skills and adding depth and variety to team gameplay.

Your class is an important decision to make, but it doesn’t chain you to any one playstyle. Every class has three of its own skill lines, each with different skills that are thematically related to the class. Combine those three with the many, many other lines available to every character, and each member of a particular class can be wildly different from the next. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to spend a single point in your class lines. However, you’ll know when you see a Templar who has decided to focus on his or her class abilities.

I'm pretty sure it's a made-up story as in "hey guys, you are the ones who wanted it" while in reality my first comment is correct and they did it to increase time we spend trying to find our playstyle - trying different classes, level alts, etc.

Also, this is simply hypocrite and just rude:

Your class is an important decision to make, but it doesn’t chain you to any one play style.

How can I heal as a sorc with a bow? I can do it as a templar, so.. this playstyle kinda chains me to one class... and that's just the first example that came to my mind. Or what if my playstyle is a mobile fighter that can quickly escape or initiate and I want to play as a DK? Or what if I want a paladin kinda character? Only templar could do it.

Baconlad · December 2014

Bah...i agree with both sides of this. I do like that I am different than a nb or sorc or dk as a templar. But i invishioned two play styles, depending on my mood for him. One was a healer, which i really wanted to give a go after hearing how awesome healing is in eso, the second build would be a dw light armor melee spell slinger. So the healing build....meh its incredibly effective leveling though craglorn in small group but, not quite as fun as i would have liked it to be, so RESPEC TO DPS...i leveled 1-50 mainly as bow medium armor cause it was fun, but i still want to be a spell slinger light armor wearer. But after respec, i ran a instance non vet can't remember which one, i was dps. I ended up "off" healing more that our main heals NB. I ran three more instances with the same results, sometimes being criticized for my dps being horribly low due to NOT DPSING spending so much time healing...ive gotten to the point of HATING healing just because of this. I can't imagine trying to get into a trail group not healing...sounds horrible.

So I think that this class system HAS in fact forced us into certain roles, maybe not for pvp (no experience in) or over land 1-50 content. But in crag and instances? I'm starting to think that in order to play endgame, even casually not competitively, we have to play how the "other players" feel we should be playing. "shoulda roles a NB for DW ownage nub"...but I want to DW...and I like the spear animations....