Why are there even "classes" in ESO?

Sparky617 · November 2014

Seriously, why are we limited to choosing a class? Why not just open up all trees, of all classes, to everyone? I think it would be awesome to just start a character, pick up your first weapon, and go. Then as I gain skill points I can chose class skills from anywhere. Just for example, Swallow Soul from siphoning, Endless Fury from storm calling, and Lava whip from that DK tree I never played...
We would be able to create very custom characters. Some combinations might be too good, but how different is that from the way it is now?

phermitgb · November 2014

first of all, sometimes, "classes" are a way of giving people unfamiliar with game systems, a way to get started without being overwhelmed by choices.

I play a LOT Of rpg's over the years, lots of tabletop,and I discovered that often with new players or players new to a system that used totally open character design, players would basically build bad characters, or would get stymied because they just couldn't figure out how to be what they wanted to be.

classes can be a huge advantage to introducing a bunch of new people to at least semi-useful skill lines by narrowing their choices so that they have fewer confusing, contradictory options at their disposal.

That being said, that may not be why ESO chose to make classes - but it is a possibility.

I'd say, a more likely reason they made classes, is that this is a game with a competitive PVP environment and a relatively stock MMO design - MMO's are generally designed to appeal to large masses of people (that's where they make their money), and large masses of people have gotten used to classes - classes are comfortable, they're familiar, and they help, as mentioned above, to narrow down choices to relatively manageable levels.

and yet, the "class" system we have is surprisingly flexible overall. Classes aren't locked into single armor or weapon loadouts, and lots of classes have access to the same banks of skills, so that the things that make the classes distinctive from each other are a relatively small selection of the overall total skills.

Combine all that with the at least partial desire to make familiar tank/dps/healer options for traditional MMO players and yet give lots of players the option to create *mostly* diverse characters, and I think ESO did an admirable effort at trying to have their cake and eat it too.

I still feel they would have been better off committing to a more narrow vision of who they wanted to market the game for and not hybridize so many of the game's systems, but hey, not my call to make.

anyway, that's at least a partial attempt to answer your possibly rhetorical question - hope it helps someone.

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

Personally, I believe there are 2 big reasons for going for classes over classless sytems.

1. Dumbing down the system for casual players. Most people don't really want to know anything about the game they play, they want to jump in and "be a tank" or "be a healer" without any effort and they expect the system to work like that. Having classes with a clear purpose helps giving them what they want. It comes at the expense of the players who want a deep, multi faceted system for character development, but as a mainstream product you have to build for the lowest common denominator.

2. Providing replayability without actual content. In a class system, many people will get bored with the way their character plays when it's "finished" sooner or later. In a class system, those people will want to reroll now, and you can make them go through the whole slow learning curve process again and again.

Valymer · November 2014

If the main goal was to assist new players from being overwhelmed, it would have been awesome then if like as soon as you hit VR1 you instantly had access to all of the skill lines for the other classes. Of course they would still cost skill points so you would probably have to respec, but yeah.

Pretty much what the spellcrafting system will entail (although those spells won't be as powerful as the actual class abilities, I hear)

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

I highly doubt that. The spells from Spellcrafting will/should be equal to class skills because our current weapon and guild skills match and at some pints even surpass our class skills

DovresMalven · November 2014

phermitgb wrote: »

Combine all that with the at least partial desire to make familiar tank/dps/healer options for traditional MMO players and yet give lots of players the option to create *mostly* diverse characters, and I think ESO did an admirable effort at trying to have their cake and eat it too.

I still feel they would have been better off committing to a more narrow vision of who they wanted to market the game for and not hybridize so many of the game's systems, but hey, not my call to make.

anyway, that's at least a partial attempt to answer your possibly rhetorical question - hope it helps someone.

I think this part of the response best explains the need, and it's my opinion as well that the game should have been designed for the niche Elder Scrolls audience- the masses would come around I'm sure, especially for something actually new and different. Nonetheless, ESO has the least rigid class system of any game I have played, and there is definitely a sense of individuality and customization that is really nice. By taking some abilities from some individuals, we are more inclined to group with others to compensate for what we lack I think.

yodased · November 2014

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min-maxing

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

I have always been against classes since I first heard the game was going to have it. They honestly haven't really done that great of a job with them anyway.

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

yodased wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min-maxing

This actually bothers me and I find it both unrealistic and unappealing, even if it's a must have. Thankfully this game, while it does call for a form of optimization, does not require hard minmaxing.

Sparky617 · November 2014

@phermitgb‌ Very insightful response, and well spoke. I've made plenty of bad characters, but they get better each time. I would just really enjoy the option to have an advanced character development system. One that we could litteraly create our own class from all of the skill trees.

@guybrushtb16_ESO‌ ... For the players that want to jump in and go there could be some premade templates, for those who want advanced.. well the whole playing field is there.

yodased · November 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min-maxing

This actually bothers me and I find it both unrealistic and unappealing, even if it's a must have. Thankfully this game, while it does call for a form of optimization, does not require hard minmaxing.

I wasn't stating that I was for min/max. I personally am against the premise behind it. I was simply stating that there needs to be classes to keep the min/maxers from making the game unplayable against them, which would lead to a never ending chase the min/max nerf/buff cycle.

It's bad enough that the game is currently focused around PvP skillsets for nerf cycles, having all skills available to certain players would simply make the game suck for so many others.

TheLaw · November 2014

I totally agree. If they push classes on us, we might as well be able to obtain other class ability's. That's where spellcrafting will save us.

danno8 · November 2014

Archeage's class system is pretty good in this respect. All skill lines are open to all characters and it is the combination of the 3 you choose that determines your "class" (which you can change whenever you want.)

There is still a definite "top 5" combination list but that's mostly because there is no cc timer in that game so cc heavy builds are on top. Point is there are so many possibilities.

Unlike others here, I don't think we have classes to dumb it down for players, I actually think we have classes to simplify the system for the developers.

Valymer · November 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I highly doubt that. The spells from Spellcrafting will/should be equal to class skills because our current weapon and guild skills match and at some pints even surpass our class skills

Well I hope you are right, because if I can get a self-heal equivalent to GDB I will be a very happy camper.

Artis · November 2014

Do you believe in this??

"classes" are a way of giving people unfamiliar with game systems, a way to get started without being overwhelmed by choices.

If they exist only for this purpose, then ZOS would let us remove all the class boundaries later on, when we are not afraid of choices anymore. Or would let people who are not that easily overwhelmed by choices create non-class(or classes at once) characters, leaving classes just as starting reference points for new players.

No, classes are definitely not because of that. I am not sure why we need them. I see only one reason - money. Make leveling 100+hours, make different classes and attract some TES fans. Now, people who are used to trying every single ability in a game before choosing the play style they love will have to level 3 alts. All of them must hit level cap, of course, because that's where the "balance" is and where you can check how you perform with a character of a certain class. Only at the level cap.

Also, some min-maxers who will be "forced" to level characters after each patch that will significantly change balance.

I really see no other reason for having a class system other than a tool for sucking more money.

p.s. Not hating the game, I love it. But I do hate class system and people who decided to include it. It should be removed.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Personally, I believe there are 2 big reasons for going for classes over classless sytems.

1. Dumbing down the system for casual players. Most people don't really want to know anything about the game they play, they want to jump in and "be a tank" or "be a healer" without any effort and they expect the system to work like that. Having classes with a clear purpose helps giving them what they want. It comes at the expense of the players who want a deep, multi faceted system for character development, but as a mainstream product you have to build for the lowest common denominator.

2. Providing replayability without actual content. In a class system, many people will get bored with the way their character plays when it's "finished" sooner or later. In a class system, those people will want to reroll now, and you can make them go through the whole slow learning curve process again and again.

1. Ok, I disagree completely. I want to be able to jump into a game, I don't want to have to spend weeks researching how skill lines actually work, before I begin. Classes give me a framework I can build upon. I don't expect to become a healer with no effort, I expect to be able to see what I need to become a healer. It's not about getting a result for no effort, it's about getting into the game.

2. Ok, here you have some basis, I basically have created one of each class, and have enjoyed the feel of the class in the game. So yes, classes do create more replayability without adding any extra content. But for the life of me, I can't see how that's a bad thing, enjoying a game for longer is good in my books.

If I hadn't rolled one of each class (my Nightblade got put on Hiatus, but that's a nother story) I would have gotten frustrated, read endless internet sites, rerolled to creat a character I wanted, finished the game, and gotten bored. As it is, I have months and months before I'll get to VR12 (or VR14) and plenty of enjoyment to be found.

NotSo · November 2014

I hate that a lot of you guys are saying "Oh there's classes because mmo consumers are dumb-***es and they don't know what they want."

But god forbid I have to just sit down and put some real thought into how to play a game. To actually get a sense of accomplishment that I constructed something just by building my character.

MrGhosty · November 2014

I personally really like the initial class system offerings, once you learn the in's and out's of a class you can build it to suit many different play styles. I've come to start thinking that the 1-50 section of the game is the "getting to know" your class and experimenting without overly harsh punishments for getting it wrong. Once you hit VR, I've personally found that is when you properly choose a role and really dig into to honing that character.

I don't think having access to the other class skill lines to build an uber character would be the answer, but I would absolutely love the ability to hybridize my build further by choosing a fourth class skill line after reach vet or getting the first three skill lines to lvl 50. They could offer three more skill lines with each geared towards a particular role or play style and players have the ability to have four skill lines. This means you could swap out skill lines to take all the new ones or a mix of the two sets. If you start the game with a particular class, this second tier could be thought of as Class specialization.

I wouldn't want the new skills to be obvious upgrades, but rather well thought out sidegrades that let players augment a particular playstyle.

Stannum · November 2014

I think it's done to make characters more different. When any char can use any skill we will have in the end avarage jack-all-trades that can do anything the same way others do. In current class system in the end of the game you also may have enought skills to play any role (e.g. yesterday we quested in upper Craglorn in group tank-heal-stamina DD-magika DD and all were NB) but different clases wil do it there own way.

Ninnghizhidda · November 2014

Having a "classless" system can be a good thing, under the right circumstances and in the right game. For example the "solo player" Elder Scrolls series games, although they do have classes, actually let you choose which skills to advance, you could have them all if you so wished. So the actual "class" element is probably only the minor part in the whole picture.

In a MMO though... Having a large pool of skills and skill lines and total freedom of choice, while it sounds great, it leads to this fact. That "smart bozzos" who fancy themselves too "elite" or too "pro" (compared to the average poor "noob" out there) will cherry pick the very best from the pool and create the "ultimate build".

Yes, probably there will be more "ultimate builds", but only very specific ones will dominate. You just know this is going to happen because this is what those lovely chaps do 24/7, this is their very life. And because, by default, MMO is a competitive environment, eventually it will lead to those chaps being light years ahead from the "others" who just want to play the freaking game and not turn it to PhD research. With whatever results and implications this will have.

Ah, and psssttt, it is already happening, since day one and even before that, yes, right here in ESO, with the very current system we got. Shall we talk yet again about "broomsticks", "bathrobes" and specific combos and synergies? Despite all efforts to "balance" the situation and "boost" all the "others".

So... not that very much choice in the end, but to follow the "cherry pick builds", assuming people actually want to compete somewhere, then again even the totally casual player is going to meet the "ubers" somewhere, because... it is an MMO after all.

Cathexis · November 2014

Why would they not just have classes function in the same way that vamp/wolf does in that you can only be one at a time.

Also, if I can play for any faction with any race, form guilds with other factions, why can't I change factions or fight for other factions?

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · November 2014

phermitgb wrote: »

first of all, sometimes, "classes" are a way of giving people unfamiliar with game systems, a way to get started without being overwhelmed by choices.

I play a LOT Of rpg's over the years, lots of tabletop,and I discovered that often with new players or players new to a system that used totally open character design, players would basically build bad characters, or would get stymied because they just couldn't figure out how to be what they wanted to be.

classes can be a huge advantage to introducing a bunch of new people to at least semi-useful skill lines by narrowing their choices so that they have fewer confusing, contradictory options at their disposal.

That being said, that may not be why ESO chose to make classes - but it is a possibility.

I'd say, a more likely reason they made classes, is that this is a game with a competitive PVP environment and a relatively stock MMO design - MMO's are generally designed to appeal to large masses of people (that's where they make their money), and large masses of people have gotten used to classes - classes are comfortable, they're familiar, and they help, as mentioned above, to narrow down choices to relatively manageable levels.

and yet, the "class" system we have is surprisingly flexible overall. Classes aren't locked into single armor or weapon loadouts, and lots of classes have access to the same banks of skills, so that the things that make the classes distinctive from each other are a relatively small selection of the overall total skills.

Combine all that with the at least partial desire to make familiar tank/dps/healer options for traditional MMO players and yet give lots of players the option to create *mostly* diverse characters, and I think ESO did an admirable effort at trying to have their cake and eat it too.

I still feel they would have been better off committing to a more narrow vision of who they wanted to market the game for and not hybridize so many of the game's systems, but hey, not my call to make.

anyway, that's at least a partial attempt to answer your possibly rhetorical question - hope it helps someone.

now i want cake. thanks.

AdeusObsidiusCorvus · November 2014

I always thought it might be cool that once you had beaten Molag Bal that one consequence of that could be a 'rebirth' where your character would undergo a significant change or epiphany. You are getting your soul back after all. A sort of 'Highlander' winning the prize scenario with a significant mechanics change (as opposed to just going to a veteran level for example) where you would essentially lose the class 'boundary' you had started with. All the skill trees would become available. So as part of the process all your skill points could be reset and you could use all those previously acquired points to completely respec again but using any skill tree. You would have an option to stay the same if you wished but also have that option to load out with any skill (regardless of class) you wanted in the game. New players would still get the guidance of the class system early in the game and those players who reached the endgame would have more choice using the experience of playing the game for a while and from that speccing what they enjoyed, what worked for them and perhaps adding some skills that they had thought had worked well against them when levelling!

The reason that the classes were put in originally I expect was to try and cut down on cookie cutter builds... not sure that ever works out though.

Taz · November 2014

I think the best balance between the class system and classless system would be a classless system that has a few starter 'classes' or archetypes to choose from. So let's say, at the very beginning, you can choose any 3 skill lines, and as you progress in game you can unlock the others, be it tied to level or veteran ranks or something.

You can either hand-pick the three skill lines you want to start out with, or just click one of the listed archetypes which will automatically assign you the three (so, nightblade, sorcerer, templar, dragonknight).

boggie · November 2014

Classless systems are wonderful- for single-player games where balancing isn't an issue. In the earlier TES titles, it didn't matter if you created something that was imbalanced. You could make some stuff that was just obscenely OP (thinking back on morrowind- like 3-shotting the final boss OP). You could also go the exact opposite direction and make something totally absurd that, while fun to you, was laughably underpowered compared to other builds.

Take things into multiplayer, and suddenly imbalanced isn't fun any more. Imbalance your character in the wrong way (under instead of overpowered) and regardless of how "fun" your build is, good luck finding a group. Just think of how fun it is right now to try to pug as a templar dps or a DK healer. Unless you are the ONLY person they can find to fill that role (and sometimes not even then), very few groups will take you. Now imagine a classless system- one where every player has access to every skill. I promise you, the "hardcores" will quickly figure out what the "optimal" dps, tank, or healer setup is. Once the cat is out of the bag, suddenly "optimal" becomes "expected". As counter-intuitive as it is, including restrictions on who can use certain skills actually adds diversity to what is considered a viable build.

Furthermore, remove class restrictions and suddenly balancing becomes even more of a nightmare than it already is. In most cases, what makes a skill "overpowered" is not the skill in and of itself, but how the skill can be combined with other skills. Remove all class restrictions, and suddenly you are faced with having to balance every possible combination of every skill in the game. This will go one of two ways- either a.) you end up with a VERY short list of FOTM builds (as in one or two for each role) that abuse a lapse in the balancing of how two skills interact, or b.) in the name of "balance", everything that makes particular skills unique is stripped away. You no longer get to make decisions about how you want your character to play. You are left with a bunch of generic skills that all do basically the same thing, and just have different names and animations. At that point, you may as well just change the skill names to "single target dps skill 3" or "AOE heal-over-time 5".

In a multiplayer game, classes force you to have to make decisions. Do I take this or this? Do I want to be better at "thing a" or "thing b"? Yes, sometimes it means you have to make a hard choice, but that is a good thing.

For those of you who still disagree, I'd like to point out one last thing. 95% of people who played skyrim used some kind of stealth/bow rogue type build. Think about that for a minute. Think about what that would look like if it happened in an MMO instead of a single player game. Think about how dull and repetitive that would get. Is that a game you would pay a subscription to keep playing? I sure wouldn't.

TheBull · November 2014

So that everyone is not running

Scales
Dragonsblood
Talons
Blazing shield
Bolt Escape
Banner

Thechemicals · November 2014

I think the way it is now is perfect.

LegendaryMage · November 2014

TheBull wrote: »

So that everyone is not running

Scales
Dragonsblood
Talons
Blazing shield
Bolt Escape
Banner

I find it a little ironic that most of the skills here are from one class. You a dk?

TheBull · November 2014

aleksandar.miticeb17_ESO wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

So that everyone is not running

Scales
Dragonsblood
Talons
Blazing shield
Bolt Escape
Banner

I find it a little ironic that most of the skills here are from one class. You a dk?

No a NB

AlexDougherty · November 2014

TheBull wrote: »

So that everyone is not running

Scales
Dragonsblood
Talons
Blazing shield
Bolt Escape
Banner

I'll admit to Dragons's Blood and just unlocked Reflective Scales, but I don't use the others.

My Templar doesn't use Blazing shield, in fact apart from Biting Jabs he's quite atypical, he's only just started learning his healing line (VR2 BTW).
My Sorc only used Bolt escape in the Molag Bal fight, otherwise it's not on the bar.
Is Banner a DK skill, if so it's on the bar, but not actually used, I really need to change it back to my other ultimate.

No Nightblade skills on that list I notice, my NB would complain, there are at least two skills all NBs use, Teleport Strike and siphoning.

Artis · November 2014

boggie wrote: »

Classless systems are wonderful- for single-player games where balancing isn't an issue. In the earlier TES titles, it didn't matter if you created something that was imbalanced. You could make some stuff that was just obscenely OP (thinking back on morrowind- like 3-shotting the final boss OP). You could also go the exact opposite direction and make something totally absurd that, while fun to you, was laughably underpowered compared to other builds.

Take things into multiplayer, and suddenly imbalanced isn't fun any more. Imbalance your character in the wrong way (under instead of overpowered) and regardless of how "fun" your build is, good luck finding a group. Just think of how fun it is right now to try to pug as a templar dps or a DK healer. Unless you are the ONLY person they can find to fill that role (and sometimes not even then), very few groups will take you. Now imagine a classless system- one where every player has access to every skill. I promise you, the "hardcores" will quickly figure out what the "optimal" dps, tank, or healer setup is. Once the cat is out of the bag, suddenly "optimal" becomes "expected". As counter-intuitive as it is, including restrictions on who can use certain skills actually adds diversity to what is considered a viable build.

Furthermore, remove class restrictions and suddenly balancing becomes even more of a nightmare than it already is. In most cases, what makes a skill "overpowered" is not the skill in and of itself, but how the skill can be combined with other skills. Remove all class restrictions, and suddenly you are faced with having to balance every possible combination of every skill in the game. This will go one of two ways- either a.) you end up with a VERY short list of FOTM builds (as in one or two for each role) that abuse a lapse in the balancing of how two skills interact, or b.) in the name of "balance", everything that makes particular skills unique is stripped away. You no longer get to make decisions about how you want your character to play. You are left with a bunch of generic skills that all do basically the same thing, and just have different names and animations. At that point, you may as well just change the skill names to "single target dps skill 3" or "AOE heal-over-time 5".

In a multiplayer game, classes force you to have to make decisions. Do I take this or this? Do I want to be better at "thing a" or "thing b"? Yes, sometimes it means you have to make a hard choice, but that is a good thing.

For those of you who still disagree, I'd like to point out one last thing. 95% of people who played skyrim used some kind of stealth/bow rogue type build. Think about that for a minute. Think about what that would look like if it happened in an MMO instead of a single player game. Think about how dull and repetitive that would get. Is that a game you would pay a subscription to keep playing? I sure wouldn't.

So are you saying now it's not like that? People that want to go in groups as DPS and were unlucky to pick Templars are struggling. And there is almost no way for them to change it unless they reroll.
Classless system gives freedom and equality - EVERYONE would have an opportunity to roll a build that would be on par with others (provided, they have skills). Now, say, as a NB I can only cry and regret that I didn't pick a DK when I see how they PvP and how they can tank the last fight in Vet DSA with that insane selfheal that lets them pull the boss away from the group, survive and come back.

The classless system would balance itself in the sense that the players who are struggling can easily change their build and then there will be nothing to complain about except for demands to make more build viable lol. But is it different now? Now it's not. So what's the point in having the class system if not what I said earlier in this topic? Money, making people pay more if they want to try another class's skill lines or reroll... Because now, if I want to reroll not only I need to level new character, I also need to get 11k achievement points so that at some point I can say: "Okay, now I finally keep progressing". It's just so archaic.