Please do NOT bring back forward camps!

Goldie · November 2014

Winnamine wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

How will limiting the radius do anything about "troll camping"? This aspect will still be a HUGE problem.

Will it not?

So.. because sometimes a troll camp would keep us from getting a camp where we need it, you'd rather have NO camps, so we'll NEVER have a camp where we need it?
I'm not following your logic here...

Oh come on... You know, that aside from the equine simulator, not having camps forces cooperation and tactical planning, albeit rudimentary at best. We are getting better strategically moving groups and it also makes players a bit more careful with what their roles are ie. no more leeroy pugs charging in and burning up camps faster then you can place them.

The_Bommel · November 2014

They should add FCs as an active skill (Alliance War Skill tree) which needs one person channeling it the whole time the FC is supposed to be working.
It should use a certain amount of magicka per Second so it cannot be kept up indefinately.
This way there is no need to set name tags to FCs or make them collapse after a while.
Give it the old restrictions and a huuge cooldown.

Now groups would need to dedicate a player to be able to have a FC.

€: The player using that FC skill should be awarded AP for every unique player spawning at his FC. And of course it would have to have a limited rez radius.

OtarTheMad · November 2014

I have to say that while a part of me is happy, another part of me is just disappointed because without FCs PvP has been better and more organized. I am not looking forward to the return of Troll camps honestly. if ZOS doesn't put in something that makes it hard or completely impossible to troll camp then they just reintroduced an old problem to PvP that I thought was long gone.

Draxys · November 2014

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

FC's should of been deleted when they stopped them from being bought. Please do not bring them back in any form. People want more content in Cyrodiil so add more locations such as listening posts/observation posts. Plenty of guilds have stacks of FC's still, so the zerg became more powerful since they are the ones swimming in AP in the first place. Most importantly before we discuss any other issue in the game for which we all paid a lot of money to play..... allow us to play it.. crash free, less lag, and without broken mechanics that allow 7 people to hide behind a box and wipe an entire faction.

this doesn't make any sense

Columba · November 2014

Draxys wrote: »

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

FC's should of been deleted when they stopped them from being bought. Please do not bring them back in any form. People want more content in Cyrodiil so add more locations such as listening posts/observation posts. Plenty of guilds have stacks of FC's still, so the zerg became more powerful since they are the ones swimming in AP in the first place. Most importantly before we discuss any other issue in the game for which we all paid a lot of money to play..... allow us to play it.. crash free, less lag, and without broken mechanics that allow 7 people to hide behind a box and wipe an entire faction.

this doesn't make any sense

Which words did you not understand?

purgation · November 2014

I would prefer they focus efforts in other changes in game mechanics to get some map mobility and dynamic play back, but meh.

Removing camps didn't remove the deathport -- it just made it so that you have to death port before a keep under attack gets flagged.

Rylana · November 2014

I like the franticness of the map and the overall change to strategy (even if i find it hilarious some members of AD still dont get it). It has made Cyrodiil much more dangerous to travel in, solo players running around the place everywhere, and it just feels more alive.

Goldie · November 2014

Rylana wrote: »

I like the franticness of the map and the overall change to strategy (even if i find it hilarious some members of AD still dont get it). It has made Cyrodiil much more dangerous to travel in, solo players running around the place everywhere, and it just feels more alive.

Absolutely, I LOVE it!

purgation · November 2014

Rylana wrote: »

I like the franticness of the map and the overall change to strategy (even if i find it hilarious some members of AD still dont get it). It has made Cyrodiil much more dangerous to travel in, solo players running around the place everywhere, and it just feels more alive.

I find virtually none of the above statements to be true. The only place the map is frantic is in the zerg zones between factions. Solo players are not running anywhere they were not before... (in fact, the areas deep in enemy territory are far more dead, because if you wipe enemy its a loooooong walk back)

I guess people experience what they want to believe.

ghengis_dhan · November 2014

Zenimax, please bring forward camps back with the changes you have promised. I feel players should only be able to spawn at the safe areas or at keeps and forward camps within a short radius of the player's death.

"Troll Camp" - any forward camp that doesn't benefit your group.

purgation · November 2014

Goldie wrote: »

not having camps forces cooperation and tactical planning, albeit rudimentary at best.

I've seen zero evidence of this at least on the Pact side. Cooperation and tactical planning... if anything.. was more important before. Now it's pretty meh. 90% of the time there are two places to be on the map, and it's obvious to just about anyone where those places are.

I guess you might call that "cooperation by greater zergdom"

Thechemicals · November 2014

I dont like anything that returns the guy i just killed right back into the battle seconds after i completely wrecked him.....

They have a timer that prevents you from getting ap from players youve recently killed so Fc's were always kinda silly and promoted the rookie pvp styles we have today.

Tintinabula · November 2014

The game has been gutted for solo players. I don't see solo players anymore. I hear in zone chat of great guild fights and sieges but if you're "truly" solo you are forced to pretty much gank not much else.

purgation · November 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

I dont like anything that returns the guy i just killed right back into the battle seconds after i completely wrecked him.....
.

I have bad news for you. You kill me I am right back into the battle seconds later at the nearest keep that needs help and is not yet flagged. Thanks for the free teleport.

In all seriousness though, this problem is not new to PvP games. For every player who gets the satisfaction of "completely wrecking" someone, there is another player who now is forced to be bored for some period of time while they wait on a rez timer or slow travel back to a fight (which is extremely satisfying, particularly after getting 1 shot with exactly zero opportunity for counter-play btw)

This in turn makes players less aggressive, because they don't want to risk the boredom of a horse back. So the game turns into cautious turtle fest. Then players like you will be on the forums bitching about how everyone hides inside keeps and never comes out for you to gank them and have your fun.

Seriously, all this ground has been gone over in the game design world since WoW.

Thechemicals · November 2014

I dont like anything that returns the guy i just killed right back into the battle seconds after i completely wrecked him.....

purgation wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

I dont like anything that returns the guy i just killed right back into the battle seconds after i completely wrecked him.....
.

I have bad news for you. You kill me I am right back into the battle seconds later at the nearest keep that needs help and is not yet flagged. Thanks for the free teleport.

In all seriousness though, this problem is not new to PvP games. For every player who gets the satisfaction of "completely wrecking" someone, there is another player who now is forced to be bored for some period of time while they wait on a rez timer or slow travel back to a fight (which is extremely satisfying, particularly after getting 1 shot with exactly zero opportunity for counter-play btw)

This in turn makes players less aggressive, because they don't want to risk the boredom of a horse back. So the game turns into cautious turtle fest. Then players like you will be on the forums bitching about how everyone hides inside keeps and never comes out for you to gank them and have your fun.

Seriously, all this ground has been gone over in the game design world since WoW.

Thats not true if the keep is bursted, ussually a main objective for attacking keeps. You just chose to mention one situation whereas Forward camps happened in all situations.... before keep bursted/after bursted/ from the resource after losing keep/placed just for the hell of it/ etc.

Artis · November 2014

It's *** how now the attackers of a keep have an advantage! Now, without camps, people inside the keep are doomed.
Without camps, fights are not as epic as before.
Without camps people spend MOST of their time in Cyrodiil riding their horses. Sure, there are some who don't die at all, stacking shields or preferring tanky/healing builds, but there are others too. And if you take weighted time that people actually spend PvPing and compare it with time spent traveling....

No, I don't want such PvP. Think of WoW battlegrounds. Somehow they managed to both make deaths meaningful and allow players to, you know, play most of the time, not just travel.

Tintinabula · November 2014

I used to log on and open map and I could literally see(multiple) swords on the map anywhere.(in the corners..on the roads..some random field)
Now I log in and see one (maybe two) swords crossed..( strictly always at a keep or out post)
No Fcs has turned Cyrodiil into a theme park PvP ride.

"Arrius is now closed..please direct your attention to BRK where PvP will begin in 3..2...1. Please keep your hands inside the safety bars at all times . If you are pregnant or have high or low blood pressure it is not recommended that you pvp at this time."

Evergnar · November 2014

Fc's have their benefits and drawbacks. Removal of fc's also has its benefits and drawbacks. Which one is better overall? Based on the only two versions we've played so far (with and without exploited fc's) I'd say neither.

I am not in favor of leaving things as is in PvP as we have tried this version before and it did not go well. I've tried to emphasize before that what we will end up with is nothing more than gank groups and the 100+ man monster zergs. This is why Fc's were introduced in the first place. To disperse players around the map, make travel quicker, and provide more combat situations for them.

Whether it be with adjusted fc's or some other changes there needs to be better, faster ways to get into battle and disperse players around the map. Cyrodiil needs that dynamic, ever changing map verses the current state which imo is slow and stagnant. It needs to be exciting and rewarding for the player that logs in for an hour or two and not just those that have been on for 12hrs.

Columba · November 2014

Artemis wrote: »

It's *** how now the attackers of a keep have an advantage! Now, without camps, people inside the keep are doomed.
Without camps, fights are not as epic as before.
Without camps people spend MOST of their time in Cyrodiil riding their horses. Sure, there are some who don't die at all, stacking shields or preferring tanky/healing builds, but there are others too. And if you take weighted time that people actually spend PvPing and compare it with time spent traveling....

No, I don't want such PvP. Think of WoW battlegrounds. Somehow they managed to both make deaths meaningful and allow players to, you know, play most of the time, not just travel.

have rezzers and try to stay alive. Death should have some meaning. Many of us prefer real pvp vs. a shooting arcade.

frozywozy · November 2014

Don't bring camps back, the quality of fights has never been that good. People think twice before zerging and it requires alot more knowledges and analysis before engaging another group.

Suggestion : I don't remember who posted it but someone suggested to add a "spawn location" inside a keep, ideally in the courtyard, not inside the inner, like a portal that a faction could control to spawn on it. You could destroy the portal or repair it if you are the defending faction. The portal could be activated by interacting with it and buying a given amount of respawns.

Tintinabula · November 2014

frozywozy wrote: »

Suggestion : I don't remember who posted it but someone suggested to add a "spawn location" inside a keep, ideally in the courtyard, not inside the inner, like a portal that a faction could control to spawn on it. You could destroy the portal or repair it if you are the defending faction. The portal could be activated by interacting with it and buying a given amount of respawns.

They had this. (even though it was flawed) It was called a "forward camp".

Thechemicals · November 2014

frozywozy wrote: »

Don't bring camps back, the quality of fights has never been that good. People think twice before zerging and it requires alot more knowledges and analysis before engaging another group.

Suggestion : I don't remember who posted it but someone suggested to add a "spawn location" inside a keep, ideally in the courtyard, not inside the inner, like a portal that a faction could control to spawn on it. You could destroy the portal or repair it if you are the defending faction. The portal could be activated by interacting with it and buying a given amount of respawns.

I actually like this idea though it could use some detail. Instead of randomly plopping camps....a spawn point within the keep that will remain until the outer walls are breached. This could be a good idea that would work for both the noobs who want camps back and the pros who dont.

Janduin · November 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

I dont like anything that returns the guy i just killed right back into the battle seconds after i completely wrecked him.....

Exactly. No to FCs. There should be some consequences to death in PVP. FCs mean that you have a never-ending assault as long as they can inst-spawn back to the fight as long as camps are available. Favors careless play, and *** PVP.

Right now, without camps, when you die two things can happen:

1. You res at the nearest keep and ride back to the fight, if possible, taking time to do so.

2. Your group mates/other players rez you with soul gems. Soul gems are easy to get so most can res now. BUT, this only works if you die in safe range of other players and your group is still alive.

-this has the affect of allowing winning groups to keep going by resurrecting fellow players along the way.
-BUT, if your group is rolled, you all have to port back to the nearest keep.

I think this encourages smarter coordination and group play, and LESS mindless zerg because if you die, you may have start over at the nearest keep.

Ghostbane · November 2014

Columba wrote: »

have rezzers and try to stay alive. Death should have some meaning. Many of us prefer real pvp vs. a shooting arcade.

BUT IA LIKEZ MAH QUACKSHOT PVPS.

Artis · November 2014

Columba wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

It's *** how now the attackers of a keep have an advantage! Now, without camps, people inside the keep are doomed.
Without camps, fights are not as epic as before.
Without camps people spend MOST of their time in Cyrodiil riding their horses. Sure, there are some who don't die at all, stacking shields or preferring tanky/healing builds, but there are others too. And if you take weighted time that people actually spend PvPing and compare it with time spent traveling....

No, I don't want such PvP. Think of WoW battlegrounds. Somehow they managed to both make deaths meaningful and allow players to, you know, play most of the time, not just travel.

have rezzers and try to stay alive. Death should have some meaning. Many of us prefer real pvp vs. a shooting arcade.

Deaths had meaning before the camps too. It was all about taking positions, pushing the enemies away. Deaths have meaning in battlegrounds in ..ahem.. other games.

Now? I am trying to stay alive, so? How am I supposed to have FUN though? I haven't PvPed in a while, still trying to finish vet DSA. Tried to PvP after the camps removal - it's just horrible. I haven't practiced for a while, so I am obviously behind. How am I supposed to catch up? Exactly, fight. But screw that, if 1 minute of fighting means 5 minutes of riding. Are you seriously thinking that making riding 80% of playtime in PvP is good for the majority of players?

Many of you prefer real pvp vs. a shooting arcade? Well, many of us prefer any pvp vs. a racing simulator, and that's exactly what you turned the game into with your whining about the camps.

Now PvP is just NOT fun if you don't have a personal rezzer. If you are not in an organized group, pretty much. Sure, "have rezzers", good idea. So if I'm a solo player where do I buy one? Or even if not where do I find one?
"/z LF rezzer. RPS 5+ at least"? Is that how it should work? And there will be player who will want to be rezzers?

I just don't understand why you and people like you vote for having a barrier for all new players, for everyone who wants to test the water and such... Having 80/20 ratio of riding+looking for action vs action itself is just a waste of time AND money that we are paying. Don't you want more people to enjoy PvP, so there's more people for you to fight? So there's more subscribers for ZOS to keep working on the game?

No, don't get me wrong. I am glad that you won your battle and now camps are removed for everyone, including me. I don't understand what I did to you and why my sub fee is less valuable than yours. You never thought that some players will just stop PvPing, didn't you? But you really think it's the best solution for the game? Well, it's just not fun to spend most of the time doing nothing. And there's a huge gap between a player who just joined Cyro and a player who spend there a few hours every day since April. With camps, we could learn just by PvPing and testing different styles. Now? haha. Absolutely no desire.

And sure, it was wrong that people could rez, basically, right where you kill them. But the situation now is just stupid from the point of view of gameplay. Running all the way from another keep? Really? Could at least do cemeteries next to each keep that spawns players every, say, minute. That way deaths have meaning, that way players PLAY. But no, you fight the symptoms, you don't see the whole thing

And for some reason they listened to you and solo-cyro is just no longer fun.

Columba · November 2014

It isn't that hard to run to a keep, lol. Unreal how people want everything handed to them. I solo plenty. Not that hard now.

Tintinabula · November 2014

Doesn't even have to do with running to a keep. I ran to keeps before. No problem.

However..now..with no FCs, running to keep usually winds up with arriving to a keep that has just fallen so..I'm faced as a solo player going into hide and waiting for reinforcements or simply riding back to the keep I just came from because the response time isn't fast enough.

Sure, as a guilded person I'm sure you're on TS. I'm sure you can get together with your friends and take offense and begin to siege any keep you like( while others play"catch up')
The catch up crew are the ones who are hurting..not the guilded groups..If this was a guild only game with guild only PvP they should have sold that ..not what they sold...(a product that advertised forward camps.)

Columba · November 2014

the 80% riding claim is hilarious, lol.

Artis · November 2014

Columba wrote: »

It isn't that hard to run to a keep, lol. Unreal how people want everything handed to them. I solo plenty. Not that hard now.

Did I say it was hard? No. I said it takes long. It takes long compared to the time spent in actual PvP. It can't be 80%, it can't be even close to 50%, should be much less than 50%.
Well and I dont' solo plenty, because I have absolutely no desire to mostly spend my time riding a horse. I used to solo, now when I tried it after the update and after a long break... I just don't think I want to learn to pvp again. The gap between me and experienced players is too huge which automatically means that I will lose hundreds, thousands of times before I actually start lasting for some time at least, let alone winning. However, when I think how much time I would spend just running back to the spot.... No, I can't solo plenty now. It's just not fun for me, it's boring. Always losing is boring by itself, but now add the time to get back into fight, aaand now I don't even want to spend some time losing to learn

Doesn't it make sense?

Columba wrote: »

the 80% riding claim is hilarious, lol.

How? Say, I go PvP for the first time with not optimized gear/build etc. I die very fast. If I join a massive battle solo, I will only get healed from aoe heals sometimes and whatever I can heal myself (not so many people like carrying a restoration staff in PvP). I would estimate my fighting time as less than one minute. Now, time that I spend running from one keep to another, then sneaking through enemies to join allies, etc would be about 4 mins. Depends on the horse one is using of course. Then I die again. Basically, the length of this cycle is 5 mins, 4 of them - not fighting at all. 4/5*100%=80%. This number would be even worse if the battle was somewhere deep in enemy territory.

Sure, some numbers might be off so the real number will be a little bit greater or less and would vary for different players. But that pretty much sums up my last session when I tried to go solo, without a guild. Also, that same night I could compare PvP with and without FC because after some time someone used a FC that he or she saved from before the Update. PvP was so much more fun.. And so much more PvP rather than riding a horse.

Then again, I do not like the camps as they were. I was surprised that they have infinite range. But their removal is not smart and not good for PvP, the only change that should've been done is fixing the range so that it's like it's shown on the map. The only problem with the camps was "Blood Porting" which would've been fixed together with fixing the range.

Tintinabula · November 2014

There have been legitimate points brought to the table in favor of bringing them back in a reduced capacity of course..and then there are those who want to call us/those folks baddies and say we used it as a crutch. I think those comments say more about the person saying them than shedding light on who is a baddie or not.