yodased wrote: »

That being said, there are a couple of 'cheap' boss mechanics in this game that can totally ruin a no-death run. Like for instance the 2nd to last boss in CoH. Sometimes, rarely, but sometimes there is literally nowhere for 2 of the players to go and you die because the RNG made a venn diagram of death behind and surrounding you while you are in the fire.
Its just the way it is.

Easy way around it: send one of your DDs to the far end of the room and do it with three people. Tank, Healer and one DD. Tank should use ranged taunt so no fire aoe gets in the middle area where you get pulled at. Takes a little longer to take down this boss but each player got plenty of space to dodge roll to.

There should be no change in difficulty. In my 4-man-group with which I have done the vet dungeons easily over a 100 times (worm cult set farming sessions) we don´t have any problems.

If someone is missing and we take some random guy from grahtwood zone chat we also always finish it, it just takes a little more time. As long as one group member knows how it works you can finish it, only thing changing is the time and soul gems you need to complete.

What I´ve learned from Undaunted Pledges: before these pledges many players didnt even bother trying the vet dungeons especially not the hard modes. Now they are hitting zone chat lying about their experience for these dungeons so they find a group. Takes a whole lot of time getting them to admit they don´t know specific mechanics. As soon they see they wont be kicked they start to listen to you and act according to it. Following step is mission accomplished, they got their achievement along with golden key along with extra experience for the undaunted skilltree which I am getting denied by ZOS.

But there has also been this guy, playing terrible, unwilling to learn or adapt. It´s hard to identify these guys fastly so sometimes you spend an hour in dungeon just to decide you have to dissolve group and look for more open-minded players.

@G0ku I prefer not to cheese bosses if I can and try not to give any advice out to people that takes away from the designed mechanic of the boss.

That being said on no death speed run hard mode we will send in 2 NB DPS and leave tank/heals back to guarantee no RNG hate.

Dromede wrote: »

I tried finishing the VR BC pledge about 10 times, different groups of people involved. We failed every time on the second boss (Keeper Imiril if i remember the name correct). As a VR10 sorc healer, i'm willing to blame myself for 9 tries out of 10. For the last one, it was a group of 2 VR6 dps and tank, me as a dps and a VR14 templar healer, the dungeon was scaled to VR 6. Same result.

Researching the boss fight gave a bunch of common sense tactics we've already figured out - dodge the blue beams of light, kill the adds ASAP before the new ones spawn, keep it ranged with the boss.

Done that with guildies, random peeps from the chat. Used top notch food, proper pots, good gear - i can't see what else we can do. Practice makes perfect? I'm sorry, how many times exactly do we have to practice to beat a boss in a dungeon? How many hours should be wasted with no reward? I'm not even talking about the quest reward, all i want is the mental satisfaction from beating that freaking Keeper.

I have recorded this battle, Imiril and Rilis just cut through you like butter and ignoring my Tank's shield and cotsing me 0 stamina to block.

I can edit and upload the video if you require.

bugmom wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

neueregel wrote: »

I have yet to beat a vet pledge. I have tried with several different groups, some better than others... I am VR14 NB and we just never seem to have enough dps to take down that gargoyle. I think I have tried about 15 or more times and spent hours. Waste of time.

No words....

Actually yes I have words... we use that gargoyle as a DPS measuring stick. Tank goes in and holds agro...nothing more. Healer heals...nothing more. Extra DPS grabs some popcorn and watches the show. The DPS testing their DPS either beats the gargoyles enrage timer or doesn't. Not really hard to beat it unless you are a magicka Sorc.

If you are in a group that is having trouble with that particular boss, take note of the three people you probably should avoid grouping with again.

And this attitude is why I am no longer running dungeons and have given up on the daily challenges. While I agree there should be some content for stronger players, I miss the camaraderie and social fun that this game used to have. Sort of like we've eliminated the middle class and now have the "low levels" and the "elites" and god forbid if the two should ever interact with each other.

He acknowledged and apologized for overstating this. Further he followed up with some very useful information, as many people did.

And, as one of the folks who were rather quick to jump on his original comment, I was upset by it too. But it's been a longish thread and you may have missed his comments subsequent to it.

I've given up on the pledge content for now myself, but not because of the community. So many of the people I have met through these pick up groups were wonderful.

The general consensus as I see it is that the developers need to work on the consistency of the lower level pledge content. Plus some dungeons simply scale better than others. But it's a new feature.

I plan on returning to again given some time when they've had time to study their analytics data and determine the sweet spot for this system.

Splendid summary, Joy. Thank you.

Don't care about the gold key really but it's good to make that point.

I care about the lower level quest being impossible at times. It's about finding camaraderie and fellowship among members of the community, most of whom are a pleasure to meet and adventure with.

Let the gold stay, as you said, one of those experiences for people suited to such challenges and who gain immense gratification from them.

It's odd really. Although I've flown airplanes for many years (hence my forum name), had plenty of close calls including forced landings, sailed boats on the open ocean, taken on some rather unwise river rapids though unable to swim, and done it all as a so-called disabled person, some of my most vivid memories have come from multiplayer games dating back decades. And I never expected those experiences in games to have the lasting impact on me they've had.

Why do they? Because the heart cannot differentiate between emotion experienced in a digital setting from that felt in a physical one. Same biology goes to work in either case.

Everyone who loves these game should get to experience that sort of peak moment you describe, Joy. But a broad range of people with a wide range of abilities play these games. Just want as many as possible to have that chance.

Have read this entire thread with great interest. Lots of good points on either side.

We have a group of four people who play regularly, have great coordination, are on teamspeak all the time, and we know how to play our classes. We've all been playing since early access. We aren't noobs, we try stuff and willingly adapt as needed. We're all VR14 and decked out with good purple/gold crafted sets. We're all adults so we don't generally have a lot of time available, 2 or 3 hours per sesson usually. We're never going to be able to do the arena or trials and we're fine with that. We are pretty decent casuals so I would say we are about as "middle class" as it gets in ESO...

...and we can't defeat a damned thing in any scaled dungeon.

We pick up one normal mode pledge, and then promptly wipe 10x in a row on the first boss, after trying all kinds of different strategies, and become slightly irritated, quite disheartened, and leave. Screw that, that's not fun. Pick up our battered egos and move on to try a different dungeon. Wipe 10x on first boss again. Try everything we can think of. Wipe a few more times for good measure. Spend 10 mins cursing Mr. Konkle and company and call it a night. We give up on pledge dungeons entirely. What's the point right?

Next day we head to upper Crag and try to complete skyreach hold quest, which is just one long dungeon really. Make it through all the bosses, wiping at least once on each for good measure, yay. Gear gets totally trashed so we have to individually port out to repair then port back. That's fine. Then we face the final boss and wipe 20x in a row. Can't complete the quest.

Tell us (and I suspect there are a lot of "us" out there) to learn to play... fine... we don't know how to play... or I dunno, how about Zen tries giving us something halfway between faceroll easy and ragequit ridiculous?

There's a *vast* difficulty cliff between the upper crag group delves (which we can easily steamroll btw) and just about everything above them. That's what we were hoping the dungeon scaling would do, build a ramp between these two worlds, one we could actually slowly claw our way up, one that allows just enough regular success to keep us motivated. All it does though is smash us into pulp, eat our gold and soulgems for breakfast, and kill any joy we started the session with.

How many times are you supposed to die before you're "having fun" exactly? Perhaps we're just not there yet!

Oh... and zos, by the way, there's just no excuse for a boss dishing out 35000 damage in a single hit, EVER. It's cheap and lazy. Do better please.

So I don't know what the solution is, but unless they add some middle ground difficulty functionality or some new interesting solo/duo content soon then there's not much left for "us" to do I think. We simply aren't interested in scaling this aggravating and expensive vertical cliff of difficulty thanks.

yodased wrote: »

@G0ku I prefer not to cheese bosses if I can and try not to give any advice out to people that takes away from the designed mechanic of the boss.

That being said on no death speed run hard mode we will send in 2 NB DPS and leave tank/heals back to guarantee no RNG hate.

That´s what I call inconsistency You cheese yourself and try not to tell other people? I got no manual where I can check which way the devs meant me to kill the boss, do you? I could say the other way around, killing the boss with 3 takes a whole lot of longer and it´s harder, how about that?

In my oppinion everyone should decide for himself which way he/she does it. I did the vet dungeons so many times so there is no need for me to cheese anything as I have all achievements regarding time runs and no death.

But I like to tell people alternative ways if they have problems with some encounters. People keeping things like this in secret because they think they know how the encounter should be played - for me thats a kind of elitism or sth and it gets worse if they do unbeatable time runs in trials with these cheese tactics to brag about it.

No hard feelings really, but the amount of hypocrisy of some "pro-players" in these forums is amazing and amusing.

TomLukman wrote: »

OK - let's put it this way - I'd like to see a group of 4 ZOS developers doing the veteran pledges, full undaunted and if possible with time challenge. I'd really love to see that. While at it, why not do the werewolf quest by killing the snake or the troll (not frost one).

Oh, I'd bet you the complete Dwemer Motif that they play the game A LOT. But, I agree, it would nifty if they did as you say, and post video of them playing....watching them suffer several party wipes in a row would serve as the best soothing poultice imaginable for customer relations

Well...I don't actually have that motif yet but I'm sure we can arrange something if I lose the bet.

@G0ku
wait, I'm a "pro-player"? I've never said anything close to that effect, nor do I believe i present myself in any way shape or form 'better' than anyone else, but I digress.

The only reason I stated that I don't like to encourage people to cheese bosses without learning them is it makes for lazy players.

If you learn the boss and can do it continually without dying then go ahead and use the cheese tactics for speed runs, no deaths etc.

Also, check any of my streams, videos, posts, website, twitter feed whatever you will see that I have done nothing but try to HELP people in dungeons, so this post above is both troubling and confusing to me. I apologize if whatever I said made you feel like I was belittling you or being hypocritical.

Lfehova wrote: »

Hi Bellanca. I remember you PMing me very nicely before about something pvp related, so I would like to extend a hand and help here in this regard too.

The normal pledges are not hard. Sometimes it takes a few wipes to learn the mechanics of the boss.

In terms of dps check, those are a bit trickier. Especially when trying to do the gold key challenge which for some bosses, is truly a bit tricky.

For some point of reference, I would say I'm a very good PvPer, but a casual PvEr. I'll use the gargoyle from vet spindle for my dps check since me and some No Mercy Guildies were grinding that the other day. He has almost 0 boss mechanics and he is a pure dps check. But on him, in my pvp impenetrable gear, I get a solid 1100-1150 dps every single time with ftc dps pasting. This is without crit gear, and without being homed on a buff server for 8% crit. So if you need help on DK dps build and rotations, I can help. I'm not sure where my dps matches up against elite PvErs, but I have completed vet DSA so I know a little bit about PvE tactics.

Yes, it was that wonderful video you posted, Hova.

Yet the reason I enjoyed it was the effortless, flamboyant way you attack this game....well....the players with enemy dots over their heads that is.

And I appreciate the tips. Oh, it will become easier for me with time....lots, and lots of time

Problem is I'm easily distracted....especially by those cute Dunmer gals with scars.....

My character is made for PVP..stamina build NB..i ahve no chance in PVE

Again, don't think scaling is the problem.

Adding scaling in the same patch as Boss buffing, however...

Ran BC at Vet 10 as the healer the other day with three VR14's, some in trials gear. They couldn't get enough DPS on Imiril or the Daedroth's at the end. I have doubts that they were not built for it, four levels above me?

yodased wrote: »

You certainly do have a chance as a 2h/bow DD.

Honestly, have you tried? @morvegil

Yah spent 4 hours in Spindle and couldnt get past the spider boss....2-3rd boss? I dont get how I can win when I get instand shot for 2k damage plus other guys.

yodased wrote: »

what does that mean they couldn't get enough dps on the daedroths?

Meaning they couldn't burn down the adds before they overtook the tank or something?

I can kill those adds in full tank gear while tanking the boss, so if that is what you are saying it confuses me.

Also there are multiple thoughts of how to fight that guy, but honestly my opinion the best way to do it would be to kill the adds until the boss is about 10-8%, then hold the adds until the third one pops, then burn the boss immediately.

The adds can't be cc/snared/rooted anymore and they hit hard, if the tank has aggro on the boss and 3 adds he needs to be seriously an uber tank to survive that.

So if you hold two and burn on the third it makes it much more doable.

You're reading it right, @yodased , seemed like they weren't producing enough DPS and spending more time dealing with adds, consequently not being able to focus the feasts (I was assisting with this), and leaving little to DPS the boss.

It confused me too. As I say, not sure how they wouldn't have had enough beef to deal, but it seemed to be the case, or it was scaling weird. The two DPS weren't really focusing together - that may be part of it.

Kicker is, they weren't going for hard mode, and I was Purging on site, so it's not like they were having to run to red and blue circles to rid curses.

Imiril, I understand a bit more - not sure that had as much AoE (one did), and after a while, it can quickly become a sea of blue orbs.

With last boss, that was always how we approached it too, when it still required 5 for hard mode, vice the three it does now.

I think that if a group of 4 random players cannot complete a task/dungeon after two or three tries then the task/dungeon is too hard. I don't mean for this to be a QQ post, but I play PvP for the challenge and I play PvE for fun. I don't want to have to be able to hit X DPS/HPS to complete content nor have to rely on the other members of my group to do the same. I really just want to experience it, I don't give a poop about the rewards.

I understand Zeni wants it to be challenging, but it's obviously not fun for everyone and specifically not fun for me. If it's not fun, people will not play the content and if all new content uses the same template people will stop playing the game.

At this point I spend 95% of my time in Cyrodil and it is the only thing keeping me subbed. If allowing a sliding range of risk/reward for dungeon content will cause Tamriel to fall to Molag Bal, well then I guess Zeni will have to make sure that PvP content/stability/lag gets better. It's the only way they will keep getting my money.