Undaunted Pledge Difficulty

Kraven

The end of Blackheart Haven scaled up is ridiculous though so I definitely agree some fine tuning is needed. Just hope it doesn't become as overly simple as every bit of solo content or Craglorn.

TehMagnus

Wanted to see how hard these pledges where for random pug groups (since I'm always speaking against making it easier because it seems already too easy to me even with scaling), so I joined a group of randoms (very nice people) who needed help for last two bosses of yesterday's VR pledge. They had no healer, 1 tank (which is useless for those bosses), no teamspeak, one of them was using a stamina build (not the new fancy ones) and their DPS wasn't really that great (except maybe one of them who seemed to be using the correct skills and know a bit more what was going on).

We had to adapt during the fight of course, it took at least 5 times longer than when I had done it with my group, one of the guys was spamming healing springs during poison phase to help us survive while I was spamming igneous shield (we did it without using levers because they wanted the Gold Key), we turned around a lot killing the ads and trying to stay in front of the mechanical spider.

After 2 wipes and honing the strategy with the resources at our disposal, we managed to clear the dungeon and they got their gold key.

They didn't seem like Elite or Hardcore players (I suppose they where casual / semi-casual) and they could easily have done the exact thing they did by replacing me with an other DPS. What they where is optimistic, willing to complete the dungeon and willing to work together to do so (it also helped that they knew how to roll dodge and weren't using utterly useless skills).

This only proves further that a team of decent players, without an optimized build and willing to try to complete the dungeon without giving up (which I though would happen after first wipe on last boss and in all honesty, I didn't expect us to manage to kill it) can complete the VR pledge in a dungeon and get their Gold Key.

Sucks that Zenimax listened to the 10% overwhelming these forums who think they play their class right and the content is too hard, and ended up nerfing the whole scaling system in yesterday's update instead of just nerfing some bosses that required DPS runs (which I understand can be a wall of difficulty).

One step forward, two steps back...

bellanca6561n

According to the patch notes, though, they did what you suggested, Magnus, and reduced the hardness of some targets "slightly."

Not accurate?

TehMagnus

bellanca6561n wrote: »

According to the patch notes, though, they did what you suggested, Magnus, and reduced the hardness of some targets "slightly."

Not accurate?

Meh, I must have misread then, I thought I read they lowered the overall HP from all the bosses. Gonna check the Patch Notes again.

Edit:

Dungeons & Group Content
General

Slightly decreased the power and health of all monsters in dungeons that have been scaled to Veteran Rank 1 and higher.

In my book that's a nerf of the whole scaling system .

bellanca6561n

Yep.....misread it....alas....

Joy_Division

Nevermind. What's has to be said has been said multiple times

AlnilamE

magnusnet wrote: »

Wanted to see how hard these pledges where for random pug groups (since I'm always speaking against making it easier because it seems already too easy to me even with scaling), so I joined a group of randoms (very nice people) who needed help for last two bosses of yesterday's VR pledge. They had no healer, 1 tank (which is useless for those bosses), no teamspeak, one of them was using a stamina build (not the new fancy ones) and their DPS wasn't really that great (except maybe one of them who seemed to be using the correct skills and know a bit more what was going on).

We had to adapt during the fight of course, it took at least 5 times longer than when I had done it with my group, one of the guys was spamming healing springs during poison phase to help us survive while I was spamming igneous shield (we did it without using levers because they wanted the Gold Key), we turned around a lot killing the ads and trying to stay in front of the mechanical spider.

After 2 wipes and honing the strategy with the resources at our disposal, we managed to clear the dungeon and they got their gold key.

They didn't seem like Elite or Hardcore players (I suppose they where casual / semi-casual) and they could easily have done the exact thing they did by replacing me with an other DPS. What they where is optimistic, willing to complete the dungeon and willing to work together to do so (it also helped that they knew how to roll dodge and weren't using utterly useless skills).

This only proves further that a team of decent players, without an optimized build and willing to try to complete the dungeon without giving up (which I though would happen after first wipe on last boss and in all honesty, I didn't expect us to manage to kill it) can complete the VR pledge in a dungeon and get their Gold Key.

Sucks that Zenimax listened to the 10% overwhelming these forums who think they play their class right and the content is too hard, and ended up nerfing the whole scaling system in yesterday's update instead of just nerfing some bosses that required DPS runs (which I understand can be a wall of difficulty).

One step forward, two steps back...

You realize that yesterday's pledge was after the patch and already had whatever modifications they made, right?

Did you run the same dungeon pledge with a PUG before the patch at a comparable level for comparison? Did you notice any difference?

I just did Vet DC for the first time yesterday. The netch boss was crazy. It's hard to stay out of the red when you can't see the red because of all the tentacles, but we managed.

The last boss is a matter of knowing the mechanics and being patient. If you try to take him down too fast you make mistakes.

I'm not sure what the point of the levers was. I can't see how using them would have made the fight any easier...

Aeratus

Did vet DC and I noticed that the final boss (at v12) was no longer above 200k HP. Can't remember the exact amount tho. The number of netch adds seems to have been decreased, but not sure.

yodased

pro tip:

Volcanic rune makes netch fight easy peasy

Thechemicals

yodased wrote: »

pro tip:

Volcanic rune makes netch fight easy peasy

Any aoe cc makes the fight easy me thinks. Its one of the more epic fights that isnt actually epic...just loud.

TehMagnus

AlnilamE wrote: »

You realize that yesterday's pledge was after the patch and already had whatever modifications they made, right?

I'm in EU so no patch here, thankfully ^^. Especially after all the issues you guys are having

It's normal to not be able to complete some content the first time you achieve it so nicely done for yesterday.

Regarding the big tentacle fight, just keep away from the big one unless he's down on the floor and AOE the small ones and it's fiiine ^^ (you can even run out of his AOE)..

Regarding the last boss, if you activate the 4 levers as soon as he enters poison phase, the poison is vented out and you don't take damage over time which is quite helpfull when you're not running FOOM builds and people in your party aren't very good (aka your healer can't sustain the whole party during the poison phase)..

bellanca6561n

Same.....they tried but backed off when it appeared to be FUBAR.

But Joy is right. We have gone to the far corner of this topic's conceivable universe and returned.

Enjoyable journey though....

Beesting

@magnusnet‌ with you in my darkshade group last night we would have been able to pull it of i am sure.

I was thinking about it on my way to work this morning and the reasons we failed vet darkshade yesterday for the gold key after 2 hours of trying were;

1. We were new to the dungeon (3 of us) and tried for the gold key because the group leader that was v5 tank wanted to
2. No teamspeak
3. Not knowing the mechanics of knowing when to dps the last boss, in the poison phase for example we stopped completely dps ing to focus on selfheals, i think that was bad idea
4. Not slotting the right ultimates, i did tell people to use soulstrike, but only saw one member using it,
5. Not listening to me to stay in the middle and attract the adds there, instead running around with the boss.
6. Healer needed to leave because of real life demands, we got the boss to 20 % health before that.

So i we had the same group every night we would look up some strategies and try them out and beat it, i am sure. It looks easy enough...

I am not satisfied untill this boss is dead, one way or another haha

yodased

#5 will kill you. If you stack in the middle for the adds and then the boss goes poison phase you are all dead.

bugmom

So I've seen references and comments about doing it right and "knowing the boss mechanics beforehand" and that just seems wrong to me. You should be able to have fun IN the game without having to research it on the Internet or be a pro at boss mechanics from the get go, or have an A team. Unless of course that is how ZOS wants to position the game in which case I will cancel my subscription because I bought the wrong game.

The game I thought I bought was exploratory, learn as you go, with a ramp of increasing challenges. I thought I was getting dungeons where yes, you need a team, but you can form, storm, norm a PUG team in a short period of time and figure out the boss mechanics as you go through the dungeon. At the end you get that collective feeling of "yes, we did it" you all cheer and then you disband the group and go on your merry way.

I don't want to play a game I have to study for, learning yes..

yodased

bugmom wrote: »

dungeons where yes, you need a team, but you can form, storm, norm a PUG team in a short period of time and figure out the boss mechanics as you go through the dungeon.

This is quite literally how I learned every dungeon and how my guild was formed. Seriously verbatim of how Dungeon Dwellers exists is this, so I'm not sure where the disconnect is between your perception of dungeons and my perception of dungeons, but I would be happy to try and understand your position further.

The only way you would have to 'study' for a dungeon is if you were to try and get and teach other people how to do it. I feel that its certainly possible to join a PUG and stumble through any dungeon in the game using nothing but intelligence and trial and error.

Is that not how you feel?

Syntse

bugmom wrote: »

So I've seen references and comments about doing it right and "knowing the boss mechanics beforehand" and that just seems wrong to me. You should be able to have fun IN the game without having to research it on the Internet or be a pro at boss mechanics from the get go, or have an A team. Unless of course that is how ZOS wants to position the game in which case I will cancel my subscription because I bought the wrong game.

You do the normal dungeons scaled and you can have that fun in them and not needing to research mechanics. Veteran dungeons are the hard mode, and if you put any game into the hard mode it will not be easy. Further more these hard mode dungeons are more for those people who run in groups of familiar people and know their stuff and so on, they need to have content that challenges them too.

Magdalina

Beesting wrote: »

Yes they are too hard, at least for pug groups with no ts3
I have done vet coh yesterday at vr 6 and we wiped 20 times on the second to last boss and 5 times on the last boss before we did it, but then my quest was bugged. Got two blue decon items with the silver key though.

Tonight i did vet darkshade at vr 5 and had to give 40 soulgems to 2 teammates, that had ran out.
We wiped at least 30 times in the dungeon and gave up after spending an hour on the last boss, by then the healer and one dps were allready replaced by other friends...

So that is like 7 k an evening in soulgems, potions and repairbills and many hours trying for hardly any result. We'll see how the next patch changes that.

I assume it's the first time you did COH(only reason you can wipe on second to last boss is not knowing he mechanics(well, and lag)). First time I did COH we wiped at least 40 times, mostly on fire colossus guy and last boss, so you guys didn't do so bad(and that was easy mode, though before scaling so vet 12) xD

Now COH is my favourite dungeon, I have speedrun and no death in it and could probably run most of it with closed eyes. I feel at home there:D And I know that running COH all these times has made me a much better player.

ramasurinenpreub18_ESO wrote: »

My regular group of four ( V14 NB main tank, V14 Sorc dps, V14 DK dps/off-tank, and V8 Temp healer) tried two scaled dungeons the day this new system first dropped. We were really looking forward to it. Our healer was VR6 then, so we set him as group leader, and charged in guns blazing. The first boss in the normal scaled dungeon quite literally mopped the floor with us.

We're all pretty decent semi-casuals with good coordination and always working together on teamspeak, but we got pulverized in short order. We were a bit surprised at that as we could readily beat upper crag delves and expected similar difficulty. We tried the vet one after that, and also got pounded into dust by the first boss, only a lot faster. We had an absolutely horrible time, and went away pretty irritated and totally uninterested in any further dungeon delving. We pretty much gave up on the whole system at that point and went back to regular stuff.

Tonight after the "slight" power/health adjustment, and with our healer since leveled up to VR8, we took another crack at a scaled dungeon, scaled to VR8 this time, and again normal pledge, not vet. It was a really solid challenge for us. We died a couple times each in various spots, and experienced one pretty epic wipe, which we quickly learned from, and went on to complete the dungeon and get our silver keys. The loot from the chests wasn't exciting at all, but that's not why we did it.

We wanted to see if there was any hope in hell of some actual progression for us, and while we came away slightly frazzled from it we were totally happy and are very motivated to do more soon, and to try progressively harder things if we are able to. I'm sure it would have been a cakewalk for many, but it was a hard won victory for us and we really enjoyed it. Total opposite experience to our first encounters with scaling.

This is what the normal mode silver key pledges should be all about I think, difficult but manageable for a less than 'perfect' group. They should give you a good thumping but not obliterate and demoralize you in five seconds flat. That's what the veteran pledges are for, haha. I think, based only on a very limited first run test, that they might have actually gotten it right here. We'll see I guess.

Mind naming the dungeons you did? They're drastically uneven now, it's possible you just got into an unlucky one on your first attempt. Either way, I'm glad you were able to have fun:)

And far as the "slight" decrease goes...ran vet DC twice since yesterday's patch, really, not much difference. I don't really remember boss' health, I think last boss has 200-smth k, now he has like 196k. Not exactly a drastic difference. If you can take him down from 196, you'd be able to do the same with 210 or whatever it was(unless you made a stupid mistake/had a strike of bad luck), it'd just take a few mins longer.

TehMagnus

Beesting wrote: »

@magnusnet‌ with you in my darkshade group last night we would have been able to pull it of i am sure.

I was thinking about it on my way to work this morning and the reasons we failed vet darkshade yesterday for the gold key after 2 hours of trying were;

1. We were new to the dungeon (3 of us) and tried for the gold key because the group leader that was v5 tank wanted to
2. No teamspeak
3. Not knowing the mechanics of knowing when to dps the last boss, in the poison phase for example we stopped completely dps ing to focus on selfheals, i think that was bad idea
4. Not slotting the right ultimates, i did tell people to use soulstrike, but only saw one member using it,
5. Not listening to me to stay in the middle and attract the adds there, instead running around with the boss.
6. Healer needed to leave because of real life demands, we got the boss to 20 % health before that.

So i we had the same group every night we would look up some strategies and try them out and beat it, i am sure. It looks easy enough...

I am not satisfied untill this boss is dead, one way or another haha

@Beesting‌

It's usually better when you have someone in the group that knows all the mechanics ^^.

In any case if I'm online u can always ask me advice if needed.

Think I'm gonna make some video guides for every dungeon boss explaining the mechanics like I did for VR City of Ash, but I'm sure there already are many out there so youtube can also help you in times of need

Shunravi

Dungeon Dwellers is also working on guides. We will have video runthroughs, text mechanic descriptions with copy/paste summaries, and animations. The more info we can have out there for people looking to learn, the better.

yodased

@magnusnet http://www.dungeondwellersguild.com is already making those. We welcome any additions you or anyone would like to provide though.

There really aren't that many guides out there, especially good ones.

Aeratus

yodased wrote: »

pro tip:

Volcanic rune makes netch fight easy peasy

Yeah, but volcanic rune has crappy dps. Only DKs with 12k dps should have the privilege of doing that fight!

cschwingeb14_ESO

So, the problem that I see is that people don't understand that the dungeon difficulty has nothing to to with the type of Pledge you are on

The instance creator for Spindleclutch is just making an instance scales to level X. It doesn't (and really can't) know that it's for a Normal pledge or a Vet pledge.

If you want an easy run, for a normal pledge, turn off Vet (I think this works? Otherwise you'd have to invite a lowbie). You can fulfill all of the requirements and get a silver key. The only thing you can't get is VR12 gear from the bosses.

Now, I know that a lot of people don't want an easy run. They want level/skill appropriate content. ZOS needs to tune the various harder encounters down, and some of the easier encounters up. But in many cases it's about mechanics, not HPS/DPS levels.

But I think the difficulty of many of the VR12 dungeons are set pretty well, relative to the rewards given for a gold key and Undaunted XP gain.

Magdalina

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

So, the problem that I see is that people don't understand that the dungeon difficulty has nothing to to with the type of Pledge you are on

The instance creator for Spindleclutch is just making an instance scales to level X. It doesn't (and really can't) know that it's for a Normal pledge or a Vet pledge.

If you want an easy run, for a normal pledge, turn off Vet (I think this works? Otherwise you'd have to invite a lowbie). You can fulfill all of the requirements and get a silver key. The only thing you can't get is VR12 gear from the bosses.

Now, I know that a lot of people don't want an easy run. They want level/skill appropriate content. ZOS needs to tune the various harder encounters down, and some of the easier encounters up. But in many cases it's about mechanics, not HPS/DPS levels.

But I think the difficulty of many of the VR12 dungeons are set pretty well, relative to the rewards given for a gold key and Undaunted XP gain.

Not sure what you mean here...there're 8 dungeons in the game that have vet versions atm(BC, FG, Spindle, Elden, DC, Wayrest, COH, COA). The difference between "vet" and "normal" for those dungeons is, well, the whole dungeon - different trash, different bosses, different, usually more complicated mechanics.

For everything else, changing setting from "vet" to "normal" does nothing as there's no vet version first of all.

Vet dungeons can now be scaled from vet 1 to vet 12, all of them(perhaps with exception of COA. I'm not sure you can scale down COA, though you can scale down COH). I assume non vet can be scaled from lvl...15?...to vet 12, unsure. So silly as it sounds, you can have nonvet vet 12 dungeons, yes:)

schroed360

magnusnet wrote: »

Wanted to see how hard these pledges where for random pug groups (since I'm always speaking against making it easier because it seems already too easy to me even with scaling), so I joined a group of randoms (very nice people) who needed help for last two bosses of yesterday's VR pledge. They had no healer, 1 tank (which is useless for those bosses), no teamspeak, one of them was using a stamina build (not the new fancy ones) and their DPS wasn't really that great (except maybe one of them who seemed to be using the correct skills and know a bit more what was going on).

We had to adapt during the fight of course, it took at least 5 times longer than when I had done it with my group, one of the guys was spamming healing springs during poison phase to help us survive while I was spamming igneous shield (we did it without using levers because they wanted the Gold Key), we turned around a lot killing the ads and trying to stay in front of the mechanical spider.

After 2 wipes and honing the strategy with the resources at our disposal, we managed to clear the dungeon and they got their gold key.

They didn't seem like Elite or Hardcore players (I suppose they where casual / semi-casual) and they could easily have done the exact thing they did by replacing me with an other DPS. What they where is optimistic, willing to complete the dungeon and willing to work together to do so (it also helped that they knew how to roll dodge and weren't using utterly useless skills).

This only proves further that a team of decent players, without an optimized build and willing to try to complete the dungeon without giving up (which I though would happen after first wipe on last boss and in all honesty, I didn't expect us to manage to kill it) can complete the VR pledge in a dungeon and get their Gold Key.

Sucks that Zenimax listened to the 10% overwhelming these forums who think they play their class right and the content is too hard, and ended up nerfing the whole scaling system in yesterday's update instead of just nerfing some bosses that required DPS runs (which I understand can be a wall of difficulty).

One step forward, two steps back...

Hi kind of funny for me to read this post...since I m the" maybe half competant " dps who assume the rôle of healer in your story and who is in fact mainly a tank .
So I am not an hardcore gamer (2 hours per day on average since release ).But I spend a lot of time to do my homework(therycraft).So just so you know that I have a good idea of good build for each role and have epic set for each..
So as I am mainly a tank I am not a 1k+ DD but I usually end over the 800 on real mono target non daedric target.
So from my point of view that was not really casuals (which were actually the other 2) who have succeed but rather 2 vet 14 playing properly who cary those vet4-5 IN a VET 4 SCALED dungeon...you did not take that into account in your story.

But I agree that there is no real problem of difficulty in those dungeon( except some tweaking on 3rd boss of spindle and imril who by pass block)

And to explain it to you.I just have a friend who is casual and try to help him discover the dungeon.Usually I bring only vet 14 and scale on my friend like that it is easy and quick run.This time i think eh give this guy other DD à chance (the other low vet)...but the healer(before you arrive vet 14 was not good enought to bring the healing spring +nova or and some impulse .

And i almost always pug them since my last guild collaspe and seriously on vet 12 a lot of them fail.But when i do them with poeple I know(and trust in their skill) they run smoothly.So I suppose nothing is black or white...
Anyway thanks a lot for your help cause you save me from losing the previous hour of gameplay and what would have been my first dungeon failure (for my friend ...cause I used to failed them when was vet 1-4)

And I will be happy to have you in my friend list (since your a good and nice player A it seems like your playing late ^^).

TehMagnus

schroed360 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Wanted to see how hard these pledges where for random pug groups (since I'm always speaking against making it easier because it seems already too easy to me even with scaling), so I joined a group of randoms (very nice people) who needed help for last two bosses of yesterday's VR pledge. They had no healer, 1 tank (which is useless for those bosses), no teamspeak, one of them was using a stamina build (not the new fancy ones) and their DPS wasn't really that great (except maybe one of them who seemed to be using the correct skills and know a bit more what was going on).

We had to adapt during the fight of course, it took at least 5 times longer than when I had done it with my group, one of the guys was spamming healing springs during poison phase to help us survive while I was spamming igneous shield (we did it without using levers because they wanted the Gold Key), we turned around a lot killing the ads and trying to stay in front of the mechanical spider.

After 2 wipes and honing the strategy with the resources at our disposal, we managed to clear the dungeon and they got their gold key.

They didn't seem like Elite or Hardcore players (I suppose they where casual / semi-casual) and they could easily have done the exact thing they did by replacing me with an other DPS. What they where is optimistic, willing to complete the dungeon and willing to work together to do so (it also helped that they knew how to roll dodge and weren't using utterly useless skills).

This only proves further that a team of decent players, without an optimized build and willing to try to complete the dungeon without giving up (which I though would happen after first wipe on last boss and in all honesty, I didn't expect us to manage to kill it) can complete the VR pledge in a dungeon and get their Gold Key.

Sucks that Zenimax listened to the 10% overwhelming these forums who think they play their class right and the content is too hard, and ended up nerfing the whole scaling system in yesterday's update instead of just nerfing some bosses that required DPS runs (which I understand can be a wall of difficulty).

One step forward, two steps back...

Hi kind of funny for me to read this post...since I m the" maybe half competant " dps who assume the rôle of healer in your story and who is in fact mainly a tank .
So I am not an hardcore gamer (2 hours per day on average since release ).But I spend a lot of time to do my homework(therycraft).So just so you know that I have a good idea of good build for each role and have epic set for each..
So as I am mainly a tank I am not a 1k+ DD but I usually end over the 800 on real mono target non daedric target.
So from my point of view that was not really casuals (which were actually the other 2) who have succeed but rather 2 vet 14 playing properly who cary those vet4-5 IN a VET 4 SCALED dungeon...you did not take that into account in your story.

But I agree that there is no real problem of difficulty in those dungeon( except some tweaking on 3rd boss of spindle and imril who by pass block)

And to explain it to you.I just have a friend who is casual and try to help him discover the dungeon.Usually I bring only vet 14 and scale on my friend like that it is easy and quick run.This time i think eh give this guy other DD à chance (the other low vet)...but the healer(before you arrive vet 14 was not good enought to bring the healing spring +nova or and some impulse .

And i almost always pug them since my last guild collaspe and seriously on vet 12 a lot of them fail.But when i do them with poeple I know(and trust in their skill) they run smoothly.So I suppose nothing is black or white...
Anyway thanks a lot for your help cause you save me from losing the previous hour of gameplay and what would have been my first dungeon failure (for my friend ...cause I used to failed them when was vet 1-4)

And I will be happy to have you in my friend list (since your a good and nice player A it seems like your playing late ^^).

Hah! I wondered if someone from that group would read this! And yeah, it did seem to me someone was using the correct skills and knew the dungeon as I said .

So, the dungeon was scaled to Vet 4? 0_o I could have sworn adds where VR12 and didn't even realize your friends weren't VR14 lool! (then again yes, it was very late and I was half asleep ^^) will retry then to bring another pug group and see how it goes then

And ofc, you can contact me if I'm late online, will come & help if I'm not in raid .

That being said, the VR4 fight didn't seem that much different to me than the VR12 scaled one (prolly less HP on bosses and I suppose they prolly hit a bit less hard but I wouldn't know about that since the bosses don't single target attack in those fights and you can dodge their AOEs.).

I guess I can understand why some low VR levels find the content scaled to their level hard then (and thus I was wrong to say it's easy peasy for everyone at least half decent). VR12 for a VR14 char is easy. VR4 for a VR4 must be quite more challenging, so I guess I agree with the fact scaling difficulty should have been lowered except for VR12 ^^.

zaria

Magdalina wrote: »

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

So, the problem that I see is that people don't understand that the dungeon difficulty has nothing to to with the type of Pledge you are on

The instance creator for Spindleclutch is just making an instance scales to level X. It doesn't (and really can't) know that it's for a Normal pledge or a Vet pledge.

If you want an easy run, for a normal pledge, turn off Vet (I think this works? Otherwise you'd have to invite a lowbie). You can fulfill all of the requirements and get a silver key. The only thing you can't get is VR12 gear from the bosses.

Now, I know that a lot of people don't want an easy run. They want level/skill appropriate content. ZOS needs to tune the various harder encounters down, and some of the easier encounters up. But in many cases it's about mechanics, not HPS/DPS levels.

But I think the difficulty of many of the VR12 dungeons are set pretty well, relative to the rewards given for a gold key and Undaunted XP gain.

Not sure what you mean here...there're 8 dungeons in the game that have vet versions atm(BC, FG, Spindle, Elden, DC, Wayrest, COH, COA). The difference between "vet" and "normal" for those dungeons is, well, the whole dungeon - different trash, different bosses, different, usually more complicated mechanics.

For everything else, changing setting from "vet" to "normal" does nothing as there's no vet version first of all.

Vet dungeons can now be scaled from vet 1 to vet 12, all of them(perhaps with exception of COA. I'm not sure you can scale down COA, though you can scale down COH). I assume non vet can be scaled from lvl...15?...to vet 12, unsure. So silly as it sounds, you can have nonvet vet 12 dungeons, yes:)

As I understand the veteran dungeons scales from VR1-12 except COA as I understand.
Normal dungeons scales from their original level up to VR12, so normal BC can go from level 15 to VR12, the one in coldharbor is 45 - vr12.

Veteran dungeons are harder than normal ones, even on the same level so veteran VR5 BC is much harder than normal BC also scald to VR5.

Probably more like veteran VR1 like normal VR10