Developers & Their Plans For Changes To ESO. Ask The Customer 1st?

Blade_07 · November 2014

I have always wondered why developers never simply just ask the player base about what they would like to add or nerf to their game first. Maybe take poles on the devs. ideas. I feel it would be wise for them to ask what people think about their plans for the game and listen to their customers. Do things for the game that makes the majority of the customers happy. But sadly all I have ever seen is devs. always doing what they want and NEVER taking into account what the customers may want. I would think that keeping customers happy with your product would be of utmost importance. Is it pride that gets in the way of developers decisions for their game and not listen to the customers?
The only thing that I have seen them do for the game that was awesome in my opinion is that they gave us the ability to dye our armor! I suppose there might be some things that I dont know about but adding the dye system I feel was brilliant! Every update just adds new bugs and nerfs the things that people have come to enjoy! So, they aggravate us with nerfs and then add new bugs. This is not making customers happy! People want power and they want lots of it in a big way so why gimp something that they have come to like? If things seem unbalanced then balance them by increasing things for the other classes to match what was considered to be unbalanced with the class in question. ADD to the characters not gimp them! Give, dont take away. People want to feel POWERFUL with their class not gimped. Again, just my 2 cents & feel free to disagree but please be respectful & helpful about it. Thnx everybody! ^^

Nestor · November 2014

If they could get a poll from most of the player base and just not the ones that post on the forums, then this feedback could be useful.

As it stands now, most people are happy with the status quo of the game, so we don't hear their feedback on most issues. Otherwise, the forums here would be churning so fast no one could keep up with the threads.

Nihil · November 2014

The problem I have seen happen in the past is the average forum poster does not know much about balancing classes / abilities, or just doesn't care.

For an example, my first MMO I played was runescape, everyone and their brother seem to argue that "magic" users were weak in comparison to those who used bow or melee, I had built my character purely to use magic and challenged these claims when ever they arose. Some players even accepted my challenge of a duel and I won the majority of them (due to simplistic combat mechanics and knowing how to use magic not necessarily due to me being awesome). Even tho I could show these people the balance they came on the forums and still ranted on how weak it was.

It is also hard to get an unbiased survey results, players who enter the forums aren't always of the same mind set of every player in the game. You see a mass exodus to the forums when something happens that players don't like. One group will cry "NERF X SKILL" while the players who are using that skill could be content in the game and not reading the forums, but once the skill gets nerfed (or buffed in some cases) you will see a new demographic of players coming on the forums stating the exact opposite. When it comes to class balances the best way (imo) is to observe how things are working. It is important to listen to the players but you need to be able to test the numbers for yourself, as most players will take the path of least resistance and sometimes will be completely against any type of change.

And to give some credit to the devs, some of the changes have been exactly what some players had asked for (ww was changed while still in the test server for 1.5 to make it slightly better then what was originally implemented due to player feedback, along with some skills that got changed. The concept that some class skills will use stamina was brought up on the forum too which they said they might implement.)

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

That sounds like a very smart idea, until you actually get in touch with people and realize that your average customer is a drooling moron who has absolutely zero idea of how things can or should work.

Just look around these forums, if you randomly pick posts from 100 people you get 100 opinions, most of them will disagree and/or suggest things that are either not feasible to ever implement for technical reasons or would break stuff on an epic scale.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

Blade_07 wrote: »

I have always wondered why developers never simply just ask the player base about what they would like to add or nerf to their game first.

Because it's not a simple task;

Firstly, you would have to email the players directly, that's a lot of emails.

Secondly, you would have to do it in a language they understand (three official languages, and some players only understand enough to play, not to write essays or anything).

Thirdly, some players will delete any emails from ZOS after a cursory glance, and not respond.

Fourthly, quite a few people have opposing ideas, and if they do one, the other side will leave, if they do neither both will leave (after all they've said what they want).

Fifthly, an awful lot of people don't know what they want, they think they do, then they get it and don't like it, or get something they are opposed to and find they do like it.

Sixthly, I've run out of reasons but I'm sure there are more.

Blade_07 · November 2014

All true I guess but I think it would be cool to have an official pole on what they would like to do and why they want to do it. I think most people here in the forum actually care about ESO so this would be a way to get some feedback. Just a simple statment on what they want to do and why they feel its needed and make a poll out of it. But yeah I know you will never make EVERYBODY happy with what you do. I was a chef in the Navy on board the USS Mauna Kea a wile back and I found out that you can never make everybody happy. I know this 1st hand! ^^ And yeah I have seen them take some feedback and add it but not very much.

Sindala · November 2014

Because the Player base are idiots.
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yes, I include myself in that.

Komma · November 2014

I have seen in game polls with some games. Log in and the poll pops up on screen. Vote on the issue and play never having to read through the junk on these forums. I think that would be the way to go...

BBSooner · November 2014

The entire change of the veteran system to the champion system was player polled.

Not to mention, iirc the Veteran system was introduced in the first place because players were concerned about being able to explore all of Tamriel on one character.

Thus far im satisfied with the direction eso is going. I'm also far more trusting of where developers would like to take us than the ideas of a small player sample.

mandragor1996 · November 2014

Some games pick a couple of possible paths for changes and then mail a poll to all players asking to pick 1 or say yes or no. That is a good idea because developers still pick what they see as needed or important but the players can choose whether to support the change or not. This may cause the developers to rethink their plans some.

Class balancing itself has to be based on the content first and foremost before class balancing. You cant change abilities that are important for players to reach and complete content unless you change the content first. That is far more involved and the developers know what they face there. Therefor changes to player abilities have to come from the game developers in general who will know best what effects content in a negative way and what doesnt. That and players will always complain about how such and such class is OP for any number of reasons. Doesnt mean that is actually the case. I have seen more than my fair share of flavor of the month class changes. I dont see that here and enjoy that consistency tremendously. Changes to classes should be very slow like drops in a bucket to evaluate the ripple effect. I would like to see staff though admit a change was wrong and be willing to reverse it until another plan is in place. That is something not seen often and should be as simple as saying sorry we were wrong and will evaluate again.

Lord_Kreegan · November 2014

The next to last thing you want is design by committee, which is what you'd have if the developers went out to the public.

The absolute last thing you want is design by a committee of people who don't have a clue what any kind of implementation costs in terms of computer memory, CPU load, network bandwidth, game balance, coding effort, algorithmic implementation, etc., etc., etc.

Gamers -- especially elitists and little kids (who are likely one and the same in many cases) -- think everything is easy. They've never done it themselves; they don't know how long it takes to do it or how much it costs; they aren't very concerned with such things as lore or story consistency; they lack perspective relative to impacts on GUIs and databases... they just want what THEY want.

It'd be like asking the MBAs at GM to actually design a car.. the ego is there in spades, but the knowledge and experience necessary to make rational decisions is totally absent.

Nestor · November 2014

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

It'd be like asking the MBAs at GM to actually design a car.. the ego is there in spades, but the knowledge and experience necessary to make rational decisions is totally absent.

That is how it is done, and how we ended up with Pontiac Aztec. Read all the sordid details in this book:

Car Guys vs Bean Counters

PBpsy · November 2014

Yes that is such an wonderful idea. What ZOS should do is nerf everybody else and buff me.

They actually have done to much listening to the players until now.

kewl · November 2014

Nestor wrote: »

IOtherwise, the forums here would be churning so fast no one could keep up with the threads.

OR people have left.

Nebthet78 · November 2014

I hate stated a week or so ago, that ZOS needs to step back for a little bit and before they do the next BIG change to the game, they really do need to send out a survey email to ALL of their account holders to get an idea of what their player base really consists of and an idea of what they really want.

Yes, it is a lot of emails to send players, but that is the quickest and easiest way to get an idea from ALL players as to what they would like to see, but it is the easiest way to communicate with their customers.

If a particular customer chooses not to participate in the survey and automatically deletes it, then that is their fault. They were given the opportunity to have their voice heard and they didn't take it. They then have no reason to complain.

Things that need to be asked are things like: Are you a solo or group oriented player or both? How many hours per week do you currently play? Do you consider yourself a casual or hardcore player? What do you want to see more of? Are you happy with the changes to Dungeons and the implementation of Scaling? What new Skills would you like to see? What current skills need to be improved? Do you want to see more classes added? Do you want to see classes eliminated? etc, etc.

The Guild Summit notes gives a good idea of what was discussed, but it was basically just them telling the 20 top Guilds what was going to happen and getting a little bit of feedback on it as opposed to them asking the Guilds what their members would like to see more of.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

There are some good changes coming, but it depends on how they actually plan to implement them. The developers really need to start thinking about their entire player base when making these changes rather than those who play in Groups and Guilds.

Elsonso · November 2014

Nebthet78 wrote: »

The Guild Summit notes gives a good idea of what was discussed, but it was basically just them telling the 20 top Guilds what was going to happen and getting a little bit of feedback on it

... and we need a whole lot more of this. Not just at Guild Summits, either.

KhajitFurTrader · November 2014

A game solely designed for and determined by its players' whims and wishes would be a terrible thing to behold. Just take a look at what politics usually yields -- the lowest common denominator of a multitude of pure self-interests.

SgtPepperUK · November 2014

BBSooner wrote: »

Not to mention, iirc the Veteran system was introduced in the first place because players were concerned about being able to explore all of Tamriel on one character.

I was one of those, back when the ESO forum was a subforum on the main Bethesda boards, that called for being able to explore all of Tamriel with one character.

I apologise for that.

ers101284b14_ESO · November 2014

SgtPepperUK wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Not to mention, iirc the Veteran system was introduced in the first place because players were concerned about being able to explore all of Tamriel on one character.

I was one of those, back when the ESO forum was a subforum on the main Bethesda boards, that called for being able to explore all of Tamriel with one character.

I apologise for that.

Thudunblundur · November 2014

I too thought, "Oh, interesting! Good idea, " when I saw the Caldwell's silver and gold thing explained in the prelaunch blurb. I didn't mind it too much myself, but it did grate at times and I can see how it would be just intolerable for many.

Nebthet78 · November 2014

It was a good idea. The problem with it is how Silver and Gold was Implemented. Had they not forced you to experience the other faction, but rather made you a spy within the faction or whatever, that might have made it more acceptable.

I think they figured that people would taker Meridia's word to experience the other faction from their point of view and see how Molag Bal has been manipulating the whole war.

Thudunblundur · November 2014

I took silver and gold on Meridia's terms and sort of mentally prepared myself for it, but I did find myself thinking that I knew what I'd really like to be doing. I think there they underestimated the emotional attachment that any decent game inspires in its players. It's presumably something the code lets them do reasonably efficiently, but perhaps its the next generation of engines that can support that sort of complexity...says he going way out of his depth, lol.

olemanwinter · November 2014

Nestor wrote: »

As it stands now, most people are happy with the status quo of the game,

And therein lies the problem with the constant changes at the behest of the loudest whiners.

The status quo isn't the status quo for very long. So, "most people" are inevitably going to get pissed off.

The Devs seem to be having a hard time staying out of their own way.

wafcatb14_ESO · November 2014

Actually they asked a lot of players what changes they wanted recently. When they paid to fly a bunch of players to their Guild summit meeting to brainstorm what to do to fix the game.

olemanwinter · November 2014

I wonder what kind of b#@*fit you had to throw to get on ^that^ list.

k9mouse · November 2014

I do not like WoW, but this is a good video to show what will happen if we let fans run ESO...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbT-cW8Zb7o

k9mouse · November 2014

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

SgtPepperUK wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Not to mention, iirc the Veteran system was introduced in the first place because players were concerned about being able to explore all of Tamriel on one character.

I was one of those, back when the ESO forum was a subforum on the main Bethesda boards, that called for being able to explore all of Tamriel with one character.

I apologise for that.

I have a dream one day, I can walk the ALL of Tamriel with my One char. I still have that dream to day.

I view Silver and Gold systems in two ways:
1) Make many alts to do that
OR
2) Make a "high level alt" -- it might be your "main char" but I think of the char as alt in this way: they are starting the game over again, but are keeping all the high level armor / skills. I am not trying to put the stories together, but my char just starting over with a new story and leave the old story in the last faction.

hammer_fella · November 2014

My father has a favourite saying whenever someone insults his professional capacity and he wants to instantly silence them: "Do you tell your dentist how to pull teeth?"

Same applies here. Opinions are in no short supply on the forums; but even among those which are informed and thoughtful, a select few can actually be implemented. Where feedback is needed or desired, it is generally asked for. Beyond that, I'm not part of the development crew so I leave it to ZOS to pursue their own vision for the game, since it has generally been quite entertaining thus far (the vision, if not always the execution), along with the rest of this franchise. If enough people dislike something in the game, it will likely be fixed or removed, and if there is great enough desire for something to be included it almost certainly will be eventually, provided it's in keeping with the current game. You can't always please everyone, and catering to the whims of every individual who conjures up an opinion is a sure way to kill your game overnight.

MornaBaine · November 2014

SgtPepperUK wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Not to mention, iirc the Veteran system was introduced in the first place because players were concerned about being able to explore all of Tamriel on one character.

I was one of those, back when the ESO forum was a subforum on the main Bethesda boards, that called for being able to explore all of Tamriel with one character.

I apologise for that.

I don't think anyone could have foreseen that they would choose to fulfill that wish by implementing the cheapest, laziest and most mind bogglingly illogical and immersion breaking method possible....aka Cadwell's Silver and Gold.

MornaBaine · November 2014

While I agree that most players lack the expertise to know what can be done I still think it's a good idea for the developers to solicit us to find out what kind of things we DO want. Implementation of those things is then their baby. I'm always a little bemused when they change or add stuff that no one appears to have asked for.

hammer_fella · November 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

I don't think anyone could have foreseen that they would choose to fulfill that wish by implementing the cheapest, laziest and most mind bogglingly illogical and immersion breaking method possible....aka Cadwell's Silver and Gold.

How would you have done it?

How would you have made it possible and compelling for the player to visit the other two alliances without somehow also tying it into the leveling process? How would people have responded to these two huge additional areas to explore and quest in if there was ultimately no progression to be had there? If there were compelling reasons to complete these zones (Skill Points, Loot, Xp, etc.) wouldn't the same people still be complaining that they were 'forced' to play the game a certain way? How would you make it more immersive, short of creating an entirely new questline in each alliance that provides a satisfactory explanation as to why you're sleeping with the enemy?

This is the challenge of trying to satisfy players who are unaware or unable to imagine the full ramifications of their desires. They think they know what they want, but in reality they are clueless. Humans are lemmings who should be given as little room for free thought as possible because few can actually exercise the ability.