Undaunted Pledge Difficulty

Alphashado · November 2014

Koga wrote: »

Our guild GreyWolves is a PVE Dungeon guild. Our Alpha pack runs the pledges every night. We all have multiple vet 14 Characters and all 4 of us can fulfill any role, Tank, Heal, DPS. We each get 4 Gold keys per night. We play together ALL the time and we know each other play styles well.

That said:

We often take other guild members through to get their keys or achievements. 3 alpha pack members and 1 other. This is where you see the Difference 1 player not knowing the mechanics or not moving out of !@#$% makes.

Most members we have no problems with but if one person is not carrying their weight you will not get past certain bosses.

The other day the pink ring boss (the same one we have cleared with no problems before and after) was wiping us on the very first wave of spiders even.
after some adjusting of our normal tactics to compensate we made it to the actual Boss but we still had 3 other the previous 1 pips either hitting the tank or running around wacking on ppl. After 2+ hours failing on this boss we had to call it and left the dungeon with the unfamiliar stench of defeat. The experience almost broke our main healers will.

After a long Brk we ran it again with another Non Alpha pack member and got a gold key in 20 min no problem whatsoever. We went on and got our 3 other gold keys with our regular 4 man.

The moral of the story is...

Don't Pug, Join a guild, make friends and play with people you trust often.

PS. And Don't stand in stupid !

That is all the very definition of elite game play. You should not have to play at this level and meet those requirements in order to have fun in the Normal versions.

Casual players make mistakes, they don't always have team speak, and they don't always have the best builds and countless hours of dungeon experience.

The normal versions should have a larger margin for error and the rewards should reflect that.

neueregel · November 2014

bellanca6561n wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

neueregel wrote: »

I have yet to beat a vet pledge. I have tried with several different groups, some better than others... I am VR14 NB and we just never seem to have enough dps to take down that gargoyle. I think I have tried about 15 or more times and spent hours. Waste of time.

No words....

Actually yes I have words... we use that gargoyle as a DPS measuring stick. Tank goes in and holds agro...nothing more. Healer heals...nothing more. Extra DPS grabs some popcorn and watches the show. The DPS testing their DPS either beats the gargoyles enrage timer or doesn't. Not really hard to beat it unless you are a magicka Sorc.

If you are in a group that is having trouble with that particular boss, take note of the three people you probably should avoid grouping with again.

This is precisely what multiplayer gaming is not about in my view....the belief that people who are not WONDERFUL at games are people you avoid.

I can assure you that her group and the groups I was with did exactly that: held down the monster with the tank, healer healed the tank, the rest engaged in the DPS race.

It wasn't scaling properly. That's the metapoint here.

And I would happily and eagerly group with those very people again. I'd rather fail a thousand times with people like them that succeed, even once, with someone who truly believe the only people worth their time are accomplished game players.

Somehow, though, I think I'm reading you far harsher than intended.

She = He ;/

bellanca6561n · November 2014

neueregel wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

neueregel wrote: »

I have yet to beat a vet pledge. I have tried with several different groups, some better than others... I am VR14 NB and we just never seem to have enough dps to take down that gargoyle. I think I have tried about 15 or more times and spent hours. Waste of time.

No words....

Actually yes I have words... we use that gargoyle as a DPS measuring stick. Tank goes in and holds agro...nothing more. Healer heals...nothing more. Extra DPS grabs some popcorn and watches the show. The DPS testing their DPS either beats the gargoyles enrage timer or doesn't. Not really hard to beat it unless you are a magicka Sorc.

If you are in a group that is having trouble with that particular boss, take note of the three people you probably should avoid grouping with again.

This is precisely what multiplayer gaming is not about in my view....the belief that people who are not WONDERFUL at games are people you avoid.

I can assure you that her group and the groups I was with did exactly that: held down the monster with the tank, healer healed the tank, the rest engaged in the DPS race.

It wasn't scaling properly. That's the metapoint here.

And I would happily and eagerly group with those very people again. I'd rather fail a thousand times with people like them that succeed, even once, with someone who truly believe the only people worth their time are accomplished game players.

Somehow, though, I think I'm reading you far harsher than intended.

She = He ;/

Oy vey, he says, as he falls into the grand and deep pit of assumptions

Drasn · November 2014

neueregel wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

neueregel wrote: »

I have yet to beat a vet pledge. I have tried with several different groups, some better than others... I am VR14 NB and we just never seem to have enough dps to take down that gargoyle. I think I have tried about 15 or more times and spent hours. Waste of time.

No words....

Actually yes I have words... we use that gargoyle as a DPS measuring stick. Tank goes in and holds agro...nothing more. Healer heals...nothing more. Extra DPS grabs some popcorn and watches the show. The DPS testing their DPS either beats the gargoyles enrage timer or doesn't. Not really hard to beat it unless you are a magicka Sorc.

If you are in a group that is having trouble with that particular boss, take note of the three people you probably should avoid grouping with again.

Not sure I agree... none of us were experts but willing to learn... To just dismiss people/players like that is not my personality or way I want to treat others... It isn't that important to me to beat this pledge and have an elite/better than everyone else attitude like this.

bellanca6561n wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

neueregel wrote: »

I have yet to beat a vet pledge. I have tried with several different groups, some better than others... I am VR14 NB and we just never seem to have enough dps to take down that gargoyle. I think I have tried about 15 or more times and spent hours. Waste of time.

No words....

Actually yes I have words... we use that gargoyle as a DPS measuring stick. Tank goes in and holds agro...nothing more. Healer heals...nothing more. Extra DPS grabs some popcorn and watches the show. The DPS testing their DPS either beats the gargoyles enrage timer or doesn't. Not really hard to beat it unless you are a magicka Sorc.

If you are in a group that is having trouble with that particular boss, take note of the three people you probably should avoid grouping with again.

This is precisely what multiplayer gaming is not about in my view....the belief that people who are not WONDERFUL at games are people you avoid.

I can assure you that her group and the groups I was with did exactly that: held down the monster with the tank, healer healed the tank, the rest engaged in the DPS race.

It wasn't scaling properly. That's the metapoint here.

And I would happily and eagerly group with those very people again. I'd rather fail a thousand times with people like them that succeed, even once, with someone who truly believe the only people worth their time are accomplished game players.

Somehow, though, I think I'm reading you far harsher than intended.

Apologies to you both, perhaps my second statement was a bit too far.

Let me clarify a bit, a single DPS sustaining a little over 1.3K DPS can beat the enrage timer by themselves. I wasn't suggesting that you have to have a guy pulling those numbers. If you have 2 DPS pulling around 650 DPS each that is enough(this is easily done and what I expect most casuals that have a basic understanding of the game to be pulling.) Hopefully your tank is also doing more than just holding block and taunting every 15 seconds. And even if they are only heavy attacking, your healer is adding some numbers to the groups DPS.

Some other things that might help...
1. Nightblades keep shades on the boss... this is constant group mitigation.
2. Tanks keep low slash on the boss... again this is group mitigation.
3. DK's can run Frag shield for extra group survival.
4. Veil of Blades()NB and Nova(Temp) should be used for group mitigation during the ground pound if the healer can't keep up.

The bottom line is, I guarantee that you had the tools in your groups toolbox to defeat the encounter. A single unchanging hotbar or two isn't going to work for all encounters.

Sneak_Thief · November 2014

I think the difficulty was taken a little too far. I find them to be (not challenging) but impossible if you don't have a top performing group. It's one thing to have a challenge but another to waste through a couple sets of armor, potions and soul gems because the dungeon is too OP.

Drasn · November 2014

VagabondAngel wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

No words....

Actually yes I have words... we use that gargoyle as a DPS measuring stick. Tank goes in and holds agro...nothing more. Healer heals...nothing more. Extra DPS grabs some popcorn and watches the show. The DPS testing their DPS either beats the gargoyles enrage timer or doesn't. Not really hard to beat it unless you are a magicka Sorc.

If you are in a group that is having trouble with that particular boss, take note of the three people you probably should avoid grouping with again.

Well, I'm glad they didn't design the scaling with players like you and your friends in mind.

No, wait....

My particular favourite mechanics so far are the ones that result in someone with your attitude telling me "Healer Fail!" after everyone just stood there like a dummy and died while I couldn't keep up the HPS required.

No I don't have a 5 piece Warlock set because trials are even less fun.

Ok I admit, I'm a PvPer primarily. So I can keep people alive while enemies pour oil on them and shoot them with Lethal Arrow but I can't do the same in a VR12 scaled dungeon? What's wrong with this picture?

Me. It must be me.

Me and everyone else that isn't a PvE pro with a 100k hp ego.

Kudos to you for not equipping that Warlock trash set... seriously Warlock is overrated.

My point was that if a group can't do what a single person can do, perhaps the problem is not with the scaling.

bellanca6561n · November 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Apologies to you both, perhaps my second statement was a bit too far.

[much useful information follows...]

I had a feeling you didn't mean it as anything more than an offhanded remark.

The reason it hit me was the essence of this topic: who is the audience for this content? Theorycrafters or that legion of folks who want to carry on with this game, who enjoy this game, yet need content with some margins.

Of course were this actual warfare and actual combat, I'm sure we'd ALL be viewing it with the SAME level of seriousness and detail.

Dromede · November 2014

I tried finishing the VR BC pledge about 10 times, different groups of people involved. We failed every time on the second boss (Keeper Imiril if i remember the name correct). As a VR10 sorc healer, i'm willing to blame myself for 9 tries out of 10. For the last one, it was a group of 2 VR6 dps and tank, me as a dps and a VR14 templar healer, the dungeon was scaled to VR 6. Same result.

Researching the boss fight gave a bunch of common sense tactics we've already figured out - dodge the blue beams of light, kill the adds ASAP before the new ones spawn, keep it ranged with the boss.

Done that with guildies, random peeps from the chat. Used top notch food, proper pots, good gear - i can't see what else we can do. Practice makes perfect? I'm sorry, how many times exactly do we have to practice to beat a boss in a dungeon? How many hours should be wasted with no reward? I'm not even talking about the quest reward, all i want is the mental satisfaction from beating that freaking Keeper.

yodased · November 2014

VagabondAngel wrote: »

snip

Me. It must be me.

Me and everyone else that isn't a PvE pro with a 100k hp ego.

I understand where you are coming from and I sympathize with you. When I go into PvP I get destroyed because I really don't know the mechanics of the fights.

I had to have my guild members drag me there in the first place and I didn't even know what a siege engine was or how the transitus system works.

Hell I was raging at the fact that I couldn't figure out how to even LEAVE the damn place.

I get it.

The point is though, the mechanics of keeping people alive against players and the mechanics of keeping players alive vs boss fights is completely different.

In a dungeon you are going to have people moving around running away from a hell of a lot of AOE. Impulse spamming and oil this is not. You may have massive 100% room filling AOE that you need to avoid.

Adding to that you have adds that are chasing you around and a boss that is probably doing some sort of ranged attacks on you as well. This causes an awareness problem that really isn't there in PvP (Or maybe it is, don't hate me cause I dungeon)

Basically as a healer in a Vet 12 dungeon you have to constantly be aware of multiple things:

1. Where everyone is in relationship to your healing circle
2. Everyones health in relationship to the maximum damage 1 hit can do to them
3. Buffs/Debuffs
4. Boss AOE
5. Boss Aggro
6. Adds AOE
7. Adds Aggro
8. Your Health
9. Your Magic
10. Your Stamina vs cost of break out vs chance you will be caught in the snare etc (This is based on your tanks ability to hold aggro)
11. Tanks ability to hold aggro
12. DPS of your DD To know if you have to heal through a HPS check
13. Your HPS for HPS checks
14. Your ability to take a hit and if a boss will one hit you if tank loses aggro (see 11)
15. Your HPS vs the Boss+Adds DPS (if A < B you got your work cut out for you)
16. Your tanks playstyle (Is he a dodge tank? Mitigation? Does he have GDB? Cinder Storm? What Ulti is he using?)
17. Your DD ultimates being used, as you can as the healer call for a mitigation or a DD ultimate as the case is needed.
18. The boss mechanics (if a stun is coming, where to go if you need to fill in for a DD etc)

How much different this is from PvP healing honestly I am not the one to tell you, but situational awareness as a healer in dungeons is paramount to success.

Gilvoth · November 2014

the undaunted daily pledge we get from the female is perfect. i complete it daily and enjoy it.

but the undaunted Gold Daily pledge we get from the male guy is Way too hard and i have never been in a group that was able to complete it.
and i have been trying undaunted every single day since they started and also have been in a new group every single day so i know for a fact its not me nor my group.
way too hard and basicly imposible.

manny254 · November 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

Koga wrote: »

Our guild GreyWolves is a PVE Dungeon guild. Our Alpha pack runs the pledges every night. We all have multiple vet 14 Characters and all 4 of us can fulfill any role, Tank, Heal, DPS. We each get 4 Gold keys per night. We play together ALL the time and we know each other play styles well.

That said:

We often take other guild members through to get their keys or achievements. 3 alpha pack members and 1 other. This is where you see the Difference 1 player not knowing the mechanics or not moving out of !@#$% makes.

Most members we have no problems with but if one person is not carrying their weight you will not get past certain bosses.

The other day the pink ring boss (the same one we have cleared with no problems before and after) was wiping us on the very first wave of spiders even.
after some adjusting of our normal tactics to compensate we made it to the actual Boss but we still had 3 other the previous 1 pips either hitting the tank or running around wacking on ppl. After 2+ hours failing on this boss we had to call it and left the dungeon with the unfamiliar stench of defeat. The experience almost broke our main healers will.

After a long Brk we ran it again with another Non Alpha pack member and got a gold key in 20 min no problem whatsoever. We went on and got our 3 other gold keys with our regular 4 man.

The moral of the story is...

Don't Pug, Join a guild, make friends and play with people you trust often.

PS. And Don't stand in stupid !

That is all the very definition of elite game play. You should not have to play at this level and meet those requirements in order to have fun in the Normal versions.

Casual players make mistakes, they don't always have team speak, and they don't always have the best builds and countless hours of dungeon experience.

The normal versions should have a larger margin for error and the rewards should reflect that.

You say normal, but everything he was talking about was in VET SC.

yodased · November 2014

Dromede wrote: »

I tried finishing the VR BC pledge about 10 times, different groups of people involved. We failed every time on the second boss (Keeper Imiril if i remember the name correct). As a VR10 sorc healer, i'm willing to blame myself for 9 tries out of 10. For the last one, it was a group of 2 VR6 dps and tank, me as a dps and a VR14 templar healer, the dungeon was scaled to VR 6. Same result.

Researching the boss fight gave a bunch of common sense tactics we've already figured out - dodge the blue beams of light, kill the adds ASAP before the new ones spawn, keep it ranged with the boss.

Done that with guildies, random peeps from the chat. Used top notch food, proper pots, good gear - i can't see what else we can do. Practice makes perfect? I'm sorry, how many times exactly do we have to practice to beat a boss in a dungeon? How many hours should be wasted with no reward? I'm not even talking about the quest reward, all i want is the mental satisfaction from beating that freaking Keeper.

This is the hardest fight in the dungeon in my opinion. Some things to remember:

You must CC the clanfears. Without exception the must be taloned or rune prisoned or something. Lock them down and AOE or you will die.

The twilights are perfect negate/veil combo. Really that entire fight can be won like this:

DK tank
NB DPS
Sorc DPS
W/E heals

DK needs chain, cinder storm, range taunt, absorb magic and talons.
NB Needs sap + veil
Sorc needs rune prison, negate, mages fury and lightning flood
heals should heal people.

The tank needs to pull aggro and hold threat with cinder storm. Basically pick an area not near the blue balls of death and post up.

Put a veil on the tank and when the adds get into position negate, talons, cinder storm and aoe to death.

The tank MUST pull any mobs into the negate and the veil.

This is an adds mitigation fight, the boss can be an attrition view, do damage as you can, but the fight really comes down to nullifying and killing the adds.

The banekin go down quick to AOE, the Twilights are kind of a PITA but are handleable, the clanfears are the real target and using the above strat you should be able to clear it

Either that or PM me in game and I can show you how to cheese that boss so you don't even fight it

Shunravi · November 2014

Magdalina wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

A lot of the fights are strictly mechanics/movement, but there are a few hard DPS checks in the game. (This means if you don't present the DPS you need to wipe the boss before enrage then you are dead or in some SERIOUS trouble.)

Spindleclutch 2nd boss
Darkshade Caverns 2nd Boss
Crypt of Hearts Final Boss

There are some soft DPS checks as well

Spindleclutch last boss (hardmode)
Darkshade Caverns 3rd boss (AOE Check)
Spindleclutch 3rd boss (AOE Check)

As well as some HPS checks:

Fungal Grotto Final Boss (Hard mode)
Darkshade Cavern Final Boss (Hard Mode)

The mechanic fights that will be a party killer:

Fungal Grotto 2nd Boss
Spindle Clutch 4th Boss
Elden Hollow 1st boss
Elden Hollow Final Boss
Darkshade Caverns 3rd Boss
SpindleClutch 2nd Boss
Crypt of Hearts 2nd, 3rd, 5th, Final Bosses (this is a tough AOE dungeon)

So really it comes down to some simple, yet annoying frustrating things:

1. Can't DPS if you are dead. This is a often overlooked phenomenon that affects us all. We all want to pull our own weight and kill the boss right? That doesn't help anyone if you decide to pop a magic pot and DPS instead of a health pot and live. It takes time away from DPS to rez you or time away from HPS or tanking to rez you, you lose significantly more by dying that you possibly could have gained by that last ounce of DPS. Stay alive rule number 1.

2. Always keep moving. I know it is hard, but if you get to the level of moving constantly you will find that AOE is actually pretty easy to stay out of. Remember, physics tells us that an object in motion tends to stay in motion and Boileroom (Great movie) Tells us that "Motion creates emotion" so go go go.

3. They are meant to be hard. It's OK if you can't complete the challenge on the 1st or 10th try, they aren't meant to be easy. You have to stay calm and look objectively at what you are doing and how the party dynamics are, sometimes its just better to switch roles or responsibilities fight to fight. Maybe your DPS sorc has negate and he needs to taunt the adds from the boss so the tank can hold aggro on the big guy better without getting overwhelmed. Or maybe the tank needs to put on some attack skills and try to pick up 2-300 DPS to help with killing that DPS check. It all comes to adapt and survive.

4. Join a good dungeon guild that isn't going to get upset with you and will teach you the basics and then help you become a master. This is paramount, you aren't going to get to a point of mastering the dungeons running PUGS every day. You can get better sure, but you need to synergize with a group and get to a point where you know what they are going to do and how they will react to a situation as well as you know how you will. Then you will mesh together and really start running things.

5. HAVE FUN.

Omygosh, a hardcore player that doesn't go all "u all suck and need 2 l2p" ._. Can I run with you?xD Not like I can't find people to complete them with, but still, an attitude like that is so damn rare. We need more people who're willing to be patient and help newer/more casual players learn the game instead of scaring them away with the "l33t" attitude.

Seriously though, that's a damn good post, possibly the best I've seen on the subject. Give the man a cookie!

I wish we could cross faction group. Running with someone I haven't before is always fun. (Yoda and I are AD) Btw, this extends to all looking for a group.

Dromede wrote: »

I tried finishing the VR BC pledge about 10 times, different groups of people involved. We failed every time on the second boss (Keeper Imiril if i remember the name correct). As a VR10 sorc healer, i'm willing to blame myself for 9 tries out of 10. For the last one, it was a group of 2 VR6 dps and tank, me as a dps and a VR14 templar healer, the dungeon was scaled to VR 6. Same result.

Researching the boss fight gave a bunch of common sense tactics we've already figured out - dodge the blue beams of light, kill the adds ASAP before the new ones spawn, keep it ranged with the boss.

Done that with guildies, random peeps from the chat. Used top notch food, proper pots, good gear - i can't see what else we can do. Practice makes perfect? I'm sorry, how many times exactly do we have to practice to beat a boss in a dungeon? How many hours should be wasted with no reward? I'm not even talking about the quest reward, all i want is the mental satisfaction from beating that freaking Keeper.

Are you AD/NA? I'll help you with that.

Oh, and Yoda, I may have to drag you to PvP again... you still don't have caltrops if I remember correctly.

Merlin13KAGL · November 2014

yodased wrote: »

The tank needs to pull aggro and hold threat with cinder storm. Basically pick an area not near the blue balls of death and post up.

Either that or PM me in game and I can show you how to cheese that boss so you don't even fight it

@yodased , never heard them put quite that way before

Are you referring to the particular spot? (While functional, kinda defeats the purpose, IMO. Ran it that way one time, simply because I didn't expect it to work.)

Something else to keep in mind for the DPS checks, and I don't recall explicitly seeing it in this thread, combat prayer is often underestimated...

+10% damage = -10% boss health.

For the Blood Spawn, that works out to 9k off the top, with the heal (while minor) and added armor/spell resist as a bonus.

OP, overall, I get the frustration. Essentially, once you hit Vet, unless you skirt around it by having a lower leader (I say skirt, because you shouldn't have to do it this way, not because it's not a valid and necessary method at this point), there is no such thing as a non-Vet dungeon...merely the 'normals' scaled to vet and the Vet mode's scaled higher yet.

If the responsiveness and the glitches were remedied, it would be doable. As it is, in its current state, it's a toss up.

Brawn · November 2014

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Who is the audience for this content? Theorycrafters or that legion of folks who want to carry on with this game, who enjoy this game, yet need content with some margins.

I can't help but think that those aren't the only two choices. Everyone in my guild and on my friends list is absolutely loving the difficulty of the new dungeon scaling, and I really hope ZOS doesn't nerf the content. We aren't all hopeless theorycrafting basement-dwelling nerds, either. (I mean... some of us are, but certainly not all of us. Hey, I'm not going to point fingers here.) At the same time though, it would be crushing to have all this great content reduced to a point where anyone could just "carry on with it and enjoy the game" after stomping through every pledge.

The biggest thing keeping me and my friends in ESO right now is the new, difficult content. In the interest of full disclosure, I will say that I've finished every pledge that I've started; it's just not a faceroll experience like it used to be. Now, even good players will die if they don't pay attention; even good groups can wipe if they're not careful.

I also realize that this level of difficulty isn't everyone's idea of a good time. I'd be more than OK with another tier of difficulty placed below the current "normal" modes. Giving new (or more casual) players a place to experience group content geared towards their level of play could only be a good thing for the community at large.

Please understand, though, that most of the "hardcore" players see these kinds of threads and feel threatened. They see complaints about dungeon scaling, read the subtext of "normal modes need nerfing," and think "great, if ZOS listens to these guys we're going to lose SIXTEEN of the new dungeons that we've been enjoying." While this thread has remained surprisingly civil, this is why these kinds of threads can be so contentious, not because of some l33t uber-dps epeen-stretching desire to *** on the forums in order to mark out territory. Well.. not usually.

Merlin13KAGL · November 2014

Brawn wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Who is the audience for this content? Theorycrafters or that legion of folks who want to carry on with this game, who enjoy this game, yet need content with some margins.

I can't help but think that those aren't the only two choices. Everyone in my guild and on my friends list is absolutely loving the difficulty of the new dungeon scaling, and I really hope ZOS doesn't nerf the content.

Agreed, there has to be middle ground.

A difficulty slider would remedy so much of this, scaling enemies and rewards alike. Current scaling works off leader level - (programatically) how hard would it be to have it pull the number from a slide bar in the Grouping tool?

For it to continue to be successful, it needs to be able to cater to both ends of the spectrum and all in between.

Dromede · November 2014

yodased, thanks a lot for explanation! The most successful tries we've had were exactly what you've described. We're gonna try again, i guess practice and a lot of ranged attacks make perfect)

radiostar · November 2014

It's very challenging and it took me 6 or 7 tries to even get a key. But each of those tries, the other players didn't just say Hey you suck! They pointed out how to do better. So now it is a different way to have fun ingame, and I was surprised the loot is not that bad either. But if they did put a slider, I would take it down a notch just because it can be frustrating. If the other players didn't explain things for me, I would have just given up and go back to doing my quests or whatever. But I give Z credit for making some more fun stuff to do. I don't like the group finder utility though, it never worked at all.

MrGhosty · November 2014

So, this is a bit off topic but this seems like the right group to be talking to. My group recently took on Arx Corinium, normal difficulty scaled to V4. We had a v12 healer, the tank was v4, a v6 and v4 dps. I was the v4 dps and when phoning it in I can usually managed about 500-600 dps, if I handle my buffs and get all my crits I can hit much harder.

Anyway, we dove into the first mob pile out of the gate, everything aggro'd and we wiped over and over. The dungeon was scaled to me, and we're not a scrub group by any stretch but for the life of me I cannot work out how these mobs were so powerful. I'm used to seeing my usual damage output but it barely moved the bars. Is it a case of the dungeon scaling to vet even though it was set to normal or was it just a particular fail against the Lamia?

cote-bmsb16_ESO · November 2014

You know whats annoying? Doing the gold challenges and then getting purple trash loot. Like.. Who wants a purple nightwood bow? I can craft that in 3 seconds, thanks undaunted pledges.

manny254 · November 2014

MrGhosty wrote: »

So, this is a bit off topic but this seems like the right group to be talking to. My group recently took on Arx Corinium, normal difficulty scaled to V4. We had a v12 healer, the tank was v4, a v6 and v4 dps. I was the v4 dps and when phoning it in I can usually managed about 500-600 dps, if I handle my buffs and get all my crits I can hit much harder.

Anyway, we dove into the first mob pile out of the gate, everything aggro'd and we wiped over and over. The dungeon was scaled to me, and we're not a scrub group by any stretch but for the life of me I cannot work out how these mobs were so powerful. I'm used to seeing my usual damage output but it barely moved the bars. Is it a case of the dungeon scaling to vet even though it was set to normal or was it just a particular fail against the Lamia?

That dungeon does not have a vet mode.

mandragor1996 · November 2014

In the past MMO's often had content not meant to be easily reached or completed at all without great pains or time. This was done to allow room for power creep as the game evolves and also to show achievement for reaching or completing. After a time this entire thought process changed over to using different versions of the same content to allow completion regardless but rewards would be what was limited or restricted. The problem with that is often people tire of the content far quicker than they try for the rewards. Other rewards come along which basically make the best rewards from the higher difficulties null and void. So either the entire reward system has to be modified again or the entire content is relegated to history and rarely used. This is why I think the first system is better. The difficulty also add's to the community and the player base interacting far more which strengthens the bond that keeps players engaged in the game. The designers have to be very careful here. This evolution of thought that insisted all players should be able to complete content has really devolved many games and added to their failure. Players will always chew content faster than it can be made. Making it that much faster just increases the chance players get bored. When you try to please everyone you rarely please anyone.

Merlin13KAGL · November 2014

cote-bmsb16_ESO wrote: »

You know whats annoying? Doing the gold challenges and then getting purple trash loot. Like.. Who wants a purple nightwood bow? I can craft that in 3 seconds, thanks undaunted pledges.

Exactly. Heck, I'd rather have kept the key as a souvenir.

Cuyler · November 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

The DPS testing their DPS either beats the gargoyles enrage timer or doesn't. Not really hard to beat it unless you are a magicka Sorc.

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Some other things that might help...
1. Nightblades keep shades on the boss... this is constant group mitigation.
2. Tanks keep low slash on the boss... again this is group mitigation.
3. DK's can run Frag shield for extra group survival.
4. Veil of Blades()NB and Nova(Temp) should be used for group mitigation during the ground pound if the healer can't keep up.

So what your saying is........
Remove sorcerers from your group and you will win? may of missed it but I don't see any mention of sorc there.

This is a disturbing trend of the high functioning L33ts....Time for a sorc buff @ZOS_GinaBruno?

edit: speeling

Csub · November 2014

I personally am not sure if scaling works as intended. We had could hardly kill Keeper Imiril in BC veteran mode (the one with the orbs) scaled to VR 1 as VR 13 (me) healer and 3 VR 14 people, I think 2 sorcs and a tank. I tried a few days before on VR 12, it was impossible.

Also the boss with lots of adds in DC (scaled to VR 12) after the Gargoyle seems pretty tough, I mean I actually got kicked because I couldn't overheal stupidity when people touched the AoE and instantly died but got blamed for my "low level" (ye one more level would have made a huge difference, I have most hard mode challanges though). I also have 2 sets, blue/purple colour.

And yeah there are several more bosses that seem to be just too powerful. I like a challenge, mind you, but sometimes I felt it was over the top.

I wish that at the very least you could decide if you want light/medium/heavy armor or weapon type from the gold drop. Not even exact reward just at least something you could possibly wear.

s7732425ub17_ESO · November 2014

Csub wrote: »

I personally am not sure if scaling works as intended. We had could hardly kill Keeper Imiril in BC veteran mode (the one with the orbs) scaled to VR 1 as VR 13 (me) healer and 3 VR 14 people, I think 2 sorcs and a tank. I tried a few days before on VR 12, it was impossible.

If you die to this boss scaled to VR1, it means your group members are very bad. I ran this scaled to VR1 with 3 VR1s and me a VR14 Sorc. We wiped twice before completing it. The only difficult part about this boss scaled to VR14 is that the boss hits HARD. Your tank must be able to soak up a ton of damage. Other than that, everyone should be able to keep up AOE ultimates for every add wave. Just avoid the red and you will be fine.

yodased · November 2014

The above comment cements whats wrong with the attitude of people in general.

It doesn't mean you are 'bad' it means that you are not yet up to the challenge of the dungeon or you don't understand the mechanics.

eliisra · November 2014

Cuyler wrote: »

So what your saying is........
Remove sorcerers from your group and you will win? may of missed it but I don't see any mention of sorc there.

I'm agreeing with you, even though sorc isn't my main.

For completing VR12 pledge + gold key, I prefer NB dps over sorc any day. They bring much more to the table. Passive healing, better execute, massive dmg mitigation and higher dps.

Templar is a superior(often essential) healer. DK, Templar and NB are better tanks.

Sorcerer is in a slightly bad place as far as PvE goes. Buff please.

@Topic: My biggest issue with VR pledges is the bloody rng, when it comes to mechanics. I'm not sure if it's intended or bugged, but sometimes I get targeted by 2 mechanics at once. Example: Me getting the cocooned and the red circle simultaneously, while spider adds crawl all over me. Getting knock-down to the ground and 2k dmg, while red insta-kill lasers spawn on top of me. Getting chained down while still trying to break the purple beam etc.

These are things that cant be avoided or blocked. I know what can be blocked, dodged or Immovable'ed, by now lol. So when it happens to me (the healer), there's literally no way for me to survive, because I cant get healed through it by my allies. It's so frustrating.

yodased · November 2014

@eliisra‌ the problem you are having is you have the aggro as well as the RNG is hitting you.

This is an issue with taunts falling off at the moment, it also has to do with tanks overtaunting and making the boss immune to taunt for the next x seconds.

Everyone understands that right? Bosses get taunt immune, means if you taunt them repeatedly while they are actively on your taunt they will become immune to your taunt.

Its the same thing as the DPS not standing close enough to the rear portal in Spindle and the healer/tank gets pulled in, its a mechanics/role issue not an RNG/difficulty issue.

That being said, there are a couple of 'cheap' boss mechanics in this game that can totally ruin a no-death run. Like for instance the 2nd to last boss in CoH. Sometimes, rarely, but sometimes there is literally nowhere for 2 of the players to go and you die because the RNG made a venn diagram of death behind and surrounding you while you are in the fire.

Its just the way it is.

bellanca6561n · November 2014

Brawn wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Who is the audience for this content? Theorycrafters or that legion of folks who want to carry on with this game, who enjoy this game, yet need content with some margins.

I can't help but think that those aren't the only two choices. Everyone in my guild and on my friends list is absolutely loving the difficulty of the new dungeon scaling, and I really hope ZOS doesn't nerf the content. We aren't all hopeless theorycrafting basement-dwelling nerds, either. (I mean... some of us are, but certainly not all of us. Hey, I'm not going to point fingers here.) At the same time though, it would be crushing to have all this great content reduced to a point where anyone could just "carry on with it and enjoy the game" after stomping through every pledge.

The biggest thing keeping me and my friends in ESO right now is the new, difficult content. In the interest of full disclosure, I will say that I've finished every pledge that I've started; it's just not a faceroll experience like it used to be. Now, even good players will die if they don't pay attention; even good groups can wipe if they're not careful.

I also realize that this level of difficulty isn't everyone's idea of a good time. I'd be more than OK with another tier of difficulty placed below the current "normal" modes. Giving new (or more casual) players a place to experience group content geared towards their level of play could only be a good thing for the community at large.

Please understand, though, that most of the "hardcore" players see these kinds of threads and feel threatened. They see complaints about dungeon scaling, read the subtext of "normal modes need nerfing," and think "great, if ZOS listens to these guys we're going to lose SIXTEEN of the new dungeons that we've been enjoying." While this thread has remained surprisingly civil, this is why these kinds of threads can be so contentious, not because of some l33t uber-dps epeen-stretching desire to *** on the forums in order to mark out territory. Well.. not usually.

My interest here is not nerfing anything either. Rather it's to get a sense of other players' experiences and whether what they expect from these is similar to my own.

Although I firmly believe that one of the two types should offer a challenge for dedicated but regular players I began this simply not knowing what was intended, much less how it was working.

And, man, it turned into quite an interesting and informative discussion orbiting the core question. Plus the tone of mutual respect kept things, as you noted, helpful and civil.

I've concluded, based on it, that it serves the intended purpose but not consistently. New feature and all that.

I've also concluded that it's time for me to start over on the EU server because I'm simply never going to enjoy this game fully unless group play is a central, frequent activity with the same group of people each night. I live in Munich after all and only began on the NA server due to the large size of my launch group from the beta....a group that has largely vanished.

Thus, starting from scratch, it will be awhile before I revisit these Undaunted Pledges. Yet I've found a good guild and, unlike last time, people are still building characters and visiting dungeons early in the development of them.

Oddest part of being on a UK server was getting over the initial impression that everyone is roleplaying various sorts of Mers. Oh, and an awkward moment when I complemented a gal on her believable Nord roleplay, to which she replied.....

"Uh....I am Norwegian..."