Some Suggestions for Improving Vampires

MornaBaine · November 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

That reminds me we really do need and undead horse or a non-combat bat form for travel, or we should be able to feed on the live horse in a pinch.

I could totally go for an emote that turns your vampire into a bat and just lets them flutter in place! LOL

MornaBaine · November 2014

Vizier wrote: »

Totally support section one regarding the time between phases and feeding schedule. The current system is prohibitive and immersion breaking. It's one of the reasons I don't like playing a vampire.

With the ability of fighters guild members to identify vampires via a passive skill I could care less how you look. If there is an optional non XP generating quest line that would cater to your desire to be an unblemished vampire I wouldn't object.

Why would it have to not grant any XP? I'm all for "working" to get the things we want via quests but to expect ZoS to create quests that grant no XP is rather silly. There are tons of side quests in this game that you do not have to do and your leveling progression will be just fine. These quests would be the same. If, as a vampire, the rewards offered for doing them were not something that interested you, you could always just skip them.

Vizier wrote: »

Way too Effing attached to this idea though. Good grief. Think about your readers a little more and less of yourself. Nobody wants to read that wall of text.

I don't recall the reading of or responding to forum posts as being mandatory. I simply took all the things I learned from my other posts, my further research, and distilled it all into one post rather than cluttering the boards with several related posts. And frankly, the resulting discussion has been much better and more constructive. [/quote]

Vizier wrote: »

Vamps should be exiled from the fighters and mages guilds though with their own passive to identify vampires.

I would not be adverse to this frankly so long as vampires had their own Intimidate and Persuade passives and other abilities that acted as counterbalances to the ones that would then be unavailable to them.

clayandaudrey_ESO · November 2014

If they(vamps and ww) were banished I think there should be two houses that offered the same kinds of skills and passives as the fighter and mage guilds. With one of the skills the be able to hide your vamp like @MornaBaine wants

MornaBaine · November 2014

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

If they(vamps and ww) were banished I think there should be two houses that offered the same kinds of skills and passives as the fighter and mage guilds. With one of the skills the be able to hide your vamp like @MornaBaine wants

Unsurprisingly, I think you are absolutely right. LOL I would be totally cool with being booted from the other guilds if there were vampire and werewolf guilds that gave you comparable skills with with the appropriate vampire or werewolf flavor. Actually, I'd really prefer that!

MornaBaine · November 2014

So I'm still wondering if they are at least giving any thought at all to adjusting the Stage Timers, at least for when the Justice System comes in. It is still almost impossible to keep my vampire from slipping into Stage 4 when doing tasks in the city like banking, shopping and crafting. Basically, I have to log in, go feed on enough NPCs to get to Stage 1, then go about my business as quickly as possible and get out and feed again before questing, especially if I'm going to be in an area where my primary foes are Daedra, undead or any other non-human, non-mer races. A little while questing in those areas and, if I want to return to a city for any reason, I have to find a good feeding spot first.

phreatophile · November 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

especially if I'm going to be in an area where my primary foes are Daedra, undead or any other non-human, non-mer races. A little while questing in those areas and, if I want to return to a city for any reason, I have to find a good feeding spot first.

Cold Harbor was a pain in rear where this was concerned. If the devs follow their usual path of putting out fires and never preventing them, they will implement the Justice system warts and all and only extend the timer when the outcry from getting attacked mid-sentence with a trader in town reaches critical mass.

Somewhere along the line, I saw someone suggest a toggle ability to hide vampirism. If it were to reserve a large amount of magicka, say 35% -50% to appear mortal in any stage, it would satisfy any concerns (not that they should be taken seriously, but @ZOS_PaulSage‌ takes them seriously, so I guess we must too) about vampirism being obvious in combat because, with so high a cost, almost nobody would use it in combat.

MornaBaine · November 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

especially if I'm going to be in an area where my primary foes are Daedra, undead or any other non-human, non-mer races. A little while questing in those areas and, if I want to return to a city for any reason, I have to find a good feeding spot first.

Cold Harbor was a pain in rear where this was concerned. If the devs follow their usual path of putting out fires and never preventing them, they will implement the Justice system warts and all and only extend the timer when the outcry from getting attacked mid-sentence with a trader in town reaches critical mass.

Somewhere along the line, I saw someone suggest a toggle ability to hide vampirism. If it were to reserve a large amount of magicka, say 35% -50% to appear mortal in any stage, it would satisfy any concerns (not that they should be taken seriously, but @ZOS_PaulSage‌ takes them seriously, so I guess we must too) about vampirism being obvious in combat because, with so high a cost, almost nobody would use it in combat.

I like the idea at first glance but it would pretty much completely destroy the idea of experiencing any negative consequences at all for being in Stage 4....which is exactly the situation we have now. Because even though the cost would be too high to use in combat, it would be "cheap" to use out of combat so everyone would just toggle it on as soon as they hit town and then back off when they were off to Cyrodiil. So no one ever WOULD be attacked by guards at Stage 4 because we'd have just handed then a cheap and easy "get out of jail free" card to use.

I want there to be consequences to playing a vampire, I want us to have to be aware of what is going on with them. I just ALSO want more CONTROL of what goes on with them and better ways for dealing with the Stages. So far, the best way to me still seems to be to extend the Stage times, especially Stage 1, rather drastically.

phreatophile · November 2014

Your right, actually. Stage 4 should have consequences. Tossed that one out there as a less crappy option they might actually use.

phreatophile · November 2014

SPOILERS BELOW

I hesitate to re-open this part of the discussion, but as I was playing through Rivenspire last night, I noticed there is very little consistency regarding vampire appearance with the vampire NPC's I encountered there.

1.) The first and most obvious is Verandis Ravenwatch, he looks like a mortal until you walk in on him at dinner time, afterwards he always looks like a vampire. He states point blank that he hides his nature on purpose for The High King's sake.

2.) Gwendis always looks like a vampire

3.) Heloise Menoit looks like a mortal until you track her down later in the quest. The members of the Hinault Family recognise her as a "monster" because she has already attacked them once, then again when she kills one of them.

4.) During the quests around Camp tamrith we encounter Jonah Marose and his Mother the latter of which is a bloodfiend, or turning, by this time. She looks old but doesn't have the pale skin or the red eyes even when we find her later feasting on raw bat.

5.) Captain Janeve looks like a vampire the moment we find her as one.

That's as far as I got last night. The best common thread I can come up with is that we see NPC's that we aren't yet supposed to know are vampires looking normal, and they only show their nature when the plot dictates that we should know.

If this is the intent, it's a pretty clumsy one. Verandis is a powerful mage and as such there's valid reason to believe he can hide it, he says so.
Heloise, however, is newly turned so there's not much reason to think she can hide. I'm not sure the argument that she's "in the process of turning" really works since she's already attacking people. In fact she lets the Hinault family send the player off to fetch weapons so she can have a little alone time with the family. Captain Janeve is a big dramatic reveal when she's turned so having her look the part serves the storyline.

Not sure if this puddle is deep or just muddy.

MornaBaine · November 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

SPOILERS BELOW

I hesitate to re-open this part of the discussion, but as I was playing through Rivenspire last night, I noticed there is very little consistency regarding vampire appearance with the vampire NPC's I encountered there.

1.) The first and most obvious is Verandis Ravenwatch, he looks like a mortal until you walk in on him at dinner time, afterwards he always looks like a vampire. He states point blank that he hides his nature on purpose for The High King's sake.

2.) Gwendis always looks like a vampire

3.) Heloise Menoit looks like a mortal until you track her down later in the quest. The members of the Hinault Family recognise her as a "monster" because she has already attacked them once, then again when she kills one of them.

4.) During the quests around Camp tamrith we encounter Jonah Marose and his Mother the latter of which is a bloodfiend, or turning, by this time. She looks old but doesn't have the pale skin or the red eyes even when we find her later feasting on raw bat.

5.) Captain Janeve looks like a vampire the moment we find her as one.

That's as far as I got last night. The best common thread I can come up with is that we see NPC's that we aren't yet supposed to know are vampires looking normal, and they only show their nature when the plot dictates that we should know.

If this is the intent, it's a pretty clumsy one. Verandis is a powerful mage and as such there's valid reason to believe he can hide it, he says so.
Heloise, however, is newly turned so there's not much reason to think she can hide. I'm not sure the argument that she's "in the process of turning" really works since she's already attacking people. In fact she lets the Hinault family send the player off to fetch weapons so she can have a little alone time with the family. Captain Janeve is a big dramatic reveal when she's turned so having her look the part serves the storyline.

Not sure if this puddle is deep or just muddy.

I think it just really goes to show that everything ZoS has done with vampires is extremely inconsistent and confusing. Over and over again we are given examples of actual vampires who don't look like vampires at all and we're NEVER given a reason for that. Nor are we EVER given any sort of plausible reason, FROM ZOS, as to why those vampires can look like normal mortals but ours absolutely cannot under any circumstances. ONLY bloodfiends ever look as disgusting and monstrous as player vampires, none of the NPC vampires do. I think it's just time ZoS gave us control over how our vampires look and be done with it.

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Nothing in there that screams unfair or wrong, I'm dubious about letting Vampires charm NPCs, but as long as they don't kill, and they are secluded, and it doesn't work on PCs, ok.

But seriously, you need to shorten the length, it's like five or six times the length on the my screen, and that's just the text, not the pictures. I get that this is important to you, and you want to phrase everything right, but this skyscraper of text is off putting

I agree. OP I'm sure it's great man, but honestly way too long. Once I saw the length I straight up quit reading after the first paragraph. I would redo it with maybe bullet points or something.

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

Only improvement they need, is this:
They should die at daytime.

Vamps are OP as they are, dont screw it up more.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Ah, another person who appears to have not actually read the OP. Please do before bothering to comment again.

phreatophile wrote: »

I hope this thread will encourage more reasonable discussion than some of the others. If for no other reason than the folks who wish to do no more than Troll will not read that impressive wall of text and their posts will be the obvious idiocy that we know and love and have almost no relevance to what the OP actually said.

I'm a prophet!
Who knew?

Kypho... If you bothered to read the OP, we aren't asking to be more powerful, just more interesting. In a number of situations we are asking to be less powerful and/or more inconvenienced.

Speaking for myself (possibly others)...
I want gimped regens in daylight/increased in the dark (by stage)
I want questgivers/merchants to start refusing me at stage 3
I want guards to attack me at stage 4 (own faction guards in Cyrodil too, IMHO)
I want to do away with the cost reduction on all Vamp abilities, especially the Ult.

Do try to keep up...

Great summary. Short and to the point.

MornaBaine · November 2014

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Nothing in there that screams unfair or wrong, I'm dubious about letting Vampires charm NPCs, but as long as they don't kill, and they are secluded, and it doesn't work on PCs, ok.

But seriously, you need to shorten the length, it's like five or six times the length on the my screen, and that's just the text, not the pictures. I get that this is important to you, and you want to phrase everything right, but this skyscraper of text is off putting

I agree. OP I'm sure it's great man, but honestly way too long. Once I saw the length I straight up quit reading after the first paragraph. I would redo it with maybe bullet points or something.

Well that attitude says a lot about you, not all of it complimentary, which makes me sad for you. This was an in depth post that needed to cover a lot of ground that would have otherwise needlessly clogged the replies as I explained myself over and over again. I learned that the hard way from my other, shorter, posts. That we have come to a time and place in society where people admit they will not and do not read, completely without shame, and indeed chastise writers for "using too many words" we have come to a sad pass indeed. I realize you in no way understand where I am coming from and that you feel your attitude is completely fine. That is the tragedy of it.

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

SPOILERS BELOW

I hesitate to re-open this part of the discussion, but as I was playing through Rivenspire last night, I noticed there is very little consistency regarding vampire appearance with the vampire NPC's I encountered there.

1.) The first and most obvious is Verandis Ravenwatch, he looks like a mortal until you walk in on him at dinner time, afterwards he always looks like a vampire. He states point blank that he hides his nature on purpose for The High King's sake.

2.) Gwendis always looks like a vampire

3.) Heloise Menoit looks like a mortal until you track her down later in the quest. The members of the Hinault Family recognise her as a "monster" because she has already attacked them once, then again when she kills one of them.

4.) During the quests around Camp tamrith we encounter Jonah Marose and his Mother the latter of which is a bloodfiend, or turning, by this time. She looks old but doesn't have the pale skin or the red eyes even when we find her later feasting on raw bat.

5.) Captain Janeve looks like a vampire the moment we find her as one.

That's as far as I got last night. The best common thread I can come up with is that we see NPC's that we aren't yet supposed to know are vampires looking normal, and they only show their nature when the plot dictates that we should know.

If this is the intent, it's a pretty clumsy one. Verandis is a powerful mage and as such there's valid reason to believe he can hide it, he says so.
Heloise, however, is newly turned so there's not much reason to think she can hide. I'm not sure the argument that she's "in the process of turning" really works since she's already attacking people. In fact she lets the Hinault family send the player off to fetch weapons so she can have a little alone time with the family. Captain Janeve is a big dramatic reveal when she's turned so having her look the part serves the storyline.

Not sure if this puddle is deep or just muddy.

Well even us the players don't actually look like vampires right away. Even when we are doing the quest and have access to the abilities we don't actually look any different. It bothers me more that the quests or at the very least the NPCs reactions to us and our dialog options are not changed despite being vampires.

phreatophile · November 2014

True.
Though it's explained that our special soulless status because of Molag Bal is the reason we have to be turned by Lamae herself. Our appearance is explained by the barriers to turning imposed by MB; also the time period you refer to is during our initiation in the Blood Matron's Crypt. We are granted all the shiny powers for that event and then promptly lose them all until we level up the skill line.

Rahaja.
"We had hoped you would come. We have watched you ever since you first emerged from Coldharbour. If you were like other mortals you would soon turn. But you are unique."

How am I unique?

"The Dark Father, Molag Bal, has corrupted you. Only Mother Lamae herself may turn you into one of us. Kneel before this monument, and pray she welcomes you into her embrace."

Other mortals turn quickly without the need for this rite. Heloise turns and looks human for a long time, Captain Janeve looks like a vampire immediately.
Janeve has only been missing for a short time, the quest dialogue strongly suggests you're in hot pursuit.

I completely agree that certain NPC's being indifferent to our vampirism is an even bigger and more concerning lapse. Most everything I've done the last two days in Rivenspire is made ridiculous by not one person noticing. Gods, Verandis and Gwendis, at least, should see us for what we are, offer us some dinner at the castle, maybe.

It would have taken no more complicated programming than was required to give us the Intimidate/persuade options in dialogue and a few lines or recorded dialogue to have it make sense. It probably means that when the quests for Rivenspire were writen ZOS had no intention of making player vampires even possible.

phreatophile · November 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

That we have come to a time and place in society where people admit they will not and do not read, completely without shame, and indeed chastise writers for "using too many words" we have come to a sad pass indeed. I realize you in no way understand where I am coming from and that you feel your attitude is completely fine. That is the tragedy of it.

It is sad how far we've fallen in that regard. 160 characters or less... No attention span, 'social media" (which is a euphemism for an unholy combination of narcissism , ADHD, and stalking), reality tv. Oh God, I'm turning into Clint in Gran Tourino..."Get off my lawn!!"

I feel like I have a PBS mind in an MTV world

Here's the short version. (in my most humble and accurate opinion)

Make vampires more interesting not more powerful.

edit: spelling

SlayerSyrena · November 2014

Excellent post. I agree with all your points (the only exception being using an expensive potion to hide our appearance. I'd rather it be a passive ability obtained perhaps through a quest or etc).

The vampire emotes ideas, yes! I would love to have a /lungehiss emote especially, or one which allows you to sneer, bearing your fangs. Both are great suggestions.

I really hope someday there is a way for the NPC's to recognize what you are, *especially* for the vampire-specific quests. I also love the character of Count Ravenwatch but I agree that it's pretty immersion breaking that we can't 'shoot the breeze' about all things vamp together. To him my vampire Bosmer, Cyndril, is just another mortal ... ;__; (If he'd invite you to dine with him that would be too awesome for words!)

Also, I agree that the stages pass too quickly. It's rather frustrating having to feed my 'Tamagotchi' so much (and you are correct that it is far too difficult to feed in dungeons or PvP so I just am forced to stay at stage 4 through most of those activities).

I just hope someday that ZOS will show vampires more love and make them, as you say, more interesting. I rp a lot with my four vampires and getting changes like these would be like having a second Christmas.

Anyways, thanks for the awesome post.

Gix · November 2014

I admit that I didn't read all of it but I'll comment on one thing: I always like the idea that Vampires are constantly fighting off their hunger. Having a short timer reinforces that not to mention that feeding is something a player can do to remain in a particular stage, where as a longer timer forces a player to wait if they wanted to further his/her vampiric state.

From what I read, though, it's nicely written if not a tad too long for my tastes.

phreatophile · November 2014

Gix wrote: »

I admit that I didn't read all of it but I'll comment on one thing: I always like the idea that Vampires are constantly fighting off their hunger. Having a short timer reinforces that not to mention that feeding is something a player can do to remain in a particular stage, where as a longer timer forces a player to wait if they wanted to further his/her vampiric state.

From what I read, though, it's nicely written if not a tad too long for my tastes.

I see your point regarding fighting the thirst. However, I always found, in the single player games, that I found a sweet spot(stage) I preferred to be in. A longer timer would let me stay there longer. The current stage timer would make us mosquitoes if the stage actually mattered.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · November 2014

Gix wrote: »

I admit that I didn't read all of it but I'll comment on one thing: I always like the idea that Vampires are constantly fighting off their hunger. Having a short timer reinforces that not to mention that feeding is something a player can do to remain in a particular stage, where as a longer timer forces a player to wait if they wanted to further his/her vampiric state.

From what I read, though, it's nicely written if not a tad too long for my tastes.

Real Vampires stay at stage 4. The hunger is your friend.

phreatophile · November 2014

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Real Vampires stay at stage 4. The hunger is your friend.

Not for long once the Justice system goes live, then the hunger will be a player guard's friend.

Also, it shouldn't be an easy friend but a treacherous one at best. Being bloodstarved should have some serious drawbacks to contend with.

Unrelated: like that signature poodlemaster, what is that from?

poodlemasterb16_ESO · November 2014

Well it depends who they send after me really.

That's 7:15 into Archer Season 5 Episode 8. Recommended.

Evandus · November 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

naatokb14_ESO wrote: »

We should be able to HIDE vampirism. I had to LOL at Paul's answer to Morna's question on the Live Stream about hiding vampire appearance. So they have no plans to address THEIR OWN NPC CODED conversation from Lamae who states that vampires hide within the general population, because rote key-push PvPers wholly addicted to the WoW model of MMO gaming need to be able to tell when they're facing a vampire in Cyrodiil? ROFLMAO!!!

:

My greatest fear is that what they will actually do is go back and just change what she says. If that happens, I'm done here.

Due to your persistence I'm sure, Lamae's appearance has already been reset. The latest supports the lore arguments you dislike so much...

At this rate, expect Verandis' appearance to change as well. Suffice to say, those who have repeatedly pointed out to you that NS is not the strain that Cyrodillic Vampires of the Order possess have been correct all along.

Evandus · November 2014

Changing the length of vampire stages is something I would support. Changing the appearance of vampires in this game is something I'd never support.

Vampires need tweaking in their mechanics imo. They do not need their identifiers hidden.

MornaBaine · November 2014

Evandus wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

naatokb14_ESO wrote: »

We should be able to HIDE vampirism. I had to LOL at Paul's answer to Morna's question on the Live Stream about hiding vampire appearance. So they have no plans to address THEIR OWN NPC CODED conversation from Lamae who states that vampires hide within the general population, because rote key-push PvPers wholly addicted to the WoW model of MMO gaming need to be able to tell when they're facing a vampire in Cyrodiil? ROFLMAO!!!

:

My greatest fear is that what they will actually do is go back and just change what she says. If that happens, I'm done here.

Due to your persistence I'm sure, Lamae's appearance has already been reset. The latest supports the lore arguments you dislike so much...

At this rate, expect Verandis' appearance to change as well. Suffice to say, those who have repeatedly pointed out to you that NS is not the strain that Cyrodillic Vampires of the Order possess have been correct all along.

Wait, wait, wait. ARE THESE PICS RECENT??? Or have they simply been 'shopped?

Also, your contention of, "At this rate, expect Verandis' appearance to change as well. Suffice to say, those who have repeatedly pointed out to you that NS is not the strain that Cyrodillic Vampires of the Order possess have been correct all along." shows me that you have not really been paying attention to the argument.

phreatophile · November 2014

Are we still talking Cyrodillic Vampires? Why? Are we trying to make Heloise and Verandis Cyrodillic Vampires? The lore arguments will always be pointless since if it's in game, and isn't a bug, it's lore. So I guess it's lore that some who have NS look Normal sometimes and some who have NS look normal never. If they make a few logical changes those will also be lore.

Just did that quest. I didn't notice Lamae looking like that, but that could just be me. There's definitely a visual effect going on there (not shopped) but something ingame. Also she has white eyes not red.

MornaBaine · November 2014

This is how she has looked the 2 times I have seen her while running this quest and this is how she has looked the 2 times my husband has run this quest:

That is a pretty far cry from THIS:

So I really want to know...HAS there been a change?

DeLindsay · November 2014

There are only 4 things I'd love to see happen with Vampires, the rest I could care less about.

1) Add the singe sound Skyrim has when you are a Vampire and step out into Daylight.

2) Add NPC interaction similar to other ES games, at least to the point that they mention you look sick, or should get out more, or w/e. Obviously ZoS isn't going to add the full realism where the entire town guards were hostile, but NPC's should at least acknowledge you look "off".

3) Finally fix 'Unnatural Resistance' for good. And I mean actually fix it not just say you fixed it. I've been stuck at 8 Health Regen since I contracted Vampirism back at level 17. Regardless of whether I have 0/1 points into that passive or stage 1/2/3/4 it never changes. It never changes with character level either. And if I add a set with +Health Regen it doesn't give me the appropriate reduced amount. Without the passive at Stage 4 you should have -75% Health regen. With 1/1 you should have -35% Health Regen. It starts at -75% and stays there and set bonuses get hit with -75% even with 1/1.

4) Give us a (required daily) charm spell that we can choose to perform that alters our looks so we don't appear to be a Vampire. Basically for those who hate the look of a Vampire but want the RP value of it they could perform a daily ritual, something that takes maybe 10min or less, that places a charm on the player to make them appear normal for 24 hours.

EDITED for accuracy

phreatophile · November 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

There are only 4 things I'd love to see happen with Vampires, the rest I could care less about.

1) I sort of miss that little sizzling sound from Skyrim, maybe a little smoke effect.

2) Nobody noticing is my biggest annoyance. Rivenspire is all about vampires and not a soul notices a pale red eyed predator in their midst. BTW, there has been mention from @ZOS_PaulSage‌ that stage 4 in town will cause us to run afowl of the justice system.

3) That one. As much as it, like the broken Nightblade skills, make a mockery of ZOS, I would rather it increased all 3 regens at night. Doing what it says it does would be a good start though.

4) I still would rather have stage 1 look normal. Stay away from this ritual or that magical macguffin. You feed you look mortal, you don't, you look dead.

Evandus · November 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

This is how she has looked the 2 times I have seen her while running this quest and this is how she has looked the 2 times my husband has run this quest:

That is a pretty far cry from THIS:

So I really want to know...HAS there been a change?

As I said. Her appearance has changed. I believe this is largely due to your referencing her in a manner akin to a Cyrodiilic Vamp. Congratulations...

To suggest I'm not paying attention is a rather immature argument. Those screenshots are from a new character I did the vamp quest with while level 7.

Please construct better counterarguments. My screenshots, and previous disagreements with your 'pretty' vampires in TES speak for themselves.