ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone. While we aren’t quite ready to discuss all the changes and improvements going into Update 6, we can tell you that many of these changes will specifically address the concerns brought up in this thread. Our primary goal is that regardless of your class and build, you can feel like you can be competitive in the archetype you want to play as.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌

If you really want every style of class to be competitive (even in PVP), then both the Sorc and NB need access to a self heal that does not require resto staff.

Inner Light and Negate would affect the viability of the DPS build because both boost a spells critical chance, although negate by adding points to Exploitation.

Spell Critical chance increasing 32% (I think that's the total increase) has a huge impact. Even if that were the only boosts to crit they receive with no other skills (like light armor passives or racials), damage output means that 1/3 of the time they'll be potentially doing an extra 150% damage. It evens out to about 50% more damage over someone else who doesn't have those three skills on their bar.

The concern is where Crit Surge comes into play... as it increases the damage of those skills (also affecting how much of those critical strikes end up healing the sorceror). It's a deadly combination.

Thanks for the answer @ZOS_GinaBruno

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I'll restate this again because it's been buried by previous posts. Spell damage scales more than weapon damage. If you increase weapon damage by 10, you will see yourself doing 10 more damage. If you increase spell damage by 10, your spells will be doing at least 20 more damage. So if Destro scaled off of spell damage, 130 spell damage might actually be stronger than the current 200 weapon damage.

True (for example crystal shard does 3 extra damage for each extra spell damage point), but this is not the point of the topic.
If you play a sorc for endgame content you'll know how much the ability to raise weapon damage matters to us.

seanvwolf wrote: »

Inner Light and Negate would affect the viability of the DPS build because both boost a spells critical chance, although negate by adding points to Exploitation.

Oh I completely agree that Inner Light and to a much lesser degree Negate both affect DPS. How much they affect is dependent on the value they are increasing. If that value goes up then their effect goes up and conversely if that value goes down then their effect goes down as well.

seanvwolf wrote: »

Spell Critical chance increasing 32% (I think that's the total increase) has a huge impact. Even if that were the only boosts to crit they receive with no other skills (like light armor passives or racials), damage output means that 1/3 of the time they'll be potentially doing an extra 150% damage. It evens out to about 50% more damage over someone else who doesn't have those three skills on their bar.

Actually they would be doing an extra 50% damage1/3 of the time, not 150% for an increase of 16%. AND that would only be true for targets while they are being affected by a Negate. AND you can't even say that it would be a 16% increase over someone who doesn't have those skills unless ZOS is eliminating all other means of increasing Crit. Someone who is able to increase Crit through other means OR does greater non Crit damage could be doing even greater damage.

seanvwolf wrote: »

The concern is where Crit Surge comes into play... as it increases the damage of those skills (also affecting how much of those critical strikes end up healing the sorcerer). It's a deadly combination.

So which would you expect to do the greater amount of Damage or Healing?
1) Weapon damage + Crit Surge? (203 soft cap + X amount from Crit Surge)
2) Spell damage? 135 soft cap - no increase from Crit Surge if it only affects weapon damage)
3) Spell damage + Crit Surge? (135 soft cap + X amount from Crit Surge, If Crit Surge increases spell damage)
That reduction in damage is decreased even further due to the reduction from Crit strikes. Which makes for a deadly nerf.

Nightreaver wrote: »

So which would you expect to do the greater amount of Damage or Healing?
1) Weapon damage + Crit Surge? (203 soft cap + X amount from Crit Surge)
2) Spell damage? 135 soft cap - no increase from Crit Surge if it only affects weapon damage)
3) Spell damage + Crit Surge? (135 soft cap + X amount from Crit Surge, If Crit Surge increases spell damage)
That reduction in damage is decreased even further due to the reduction from Crit strikes. Which makes for a deadly nerf.

Depends on what the value of X in option (1) is compared to what the value of X is in option (3).

Aeratus wrote: »

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Nightreaver wrote: »

So which would you expect to do the greater amount of Damage or Healing?
1) Weapon damage + Crit Surge? (203 soft cap + X amount from Crit Surge)
2) Spell damage? 135 soft cap - no increase from Crit Surge if it only affects weapon damage)
3) Spell damage + Crit Surge? (135 soft cap + X amount from Crit Surge, If Crit Surge increases spell damage)
That reduction in damage is decreased even further due to the reduction from Crit strikes. Which makes for a deadly nerf.

Depends on what the value of X in option (1) is compared to what the value of X is in option (3).

X = X
Or at least until someone posts information that says otherwise. But to my knowledge there has been no mention of changing that value which is why I used "X" in both examples. Though I will concede that until we know more that is at least a possibility.

NB. Champions system is doing away with softcaps. The concept of softcaps led to many issues that were designed to be addressed with the new system.

So all those posts invoking SOFTCAPS appear problematic

Gyudan wrote: »

- Should I just grab two daggers or a 2-handed sword and switch to a weapon I never wanted my sorcerer to use? Is this the only way I can deal damage similar to the other classes?

Just a reminder:
When the game went live, a lot of DKs and NBs had chosen their class to be a melee DPS dealer (or a tank for the DKs). During the first 7 months of the game, playing a stamina build was just a nightmare, and magicka classes were ruling the world of Tamriel. This was a world where the glass canon classes did not exist. The magicka classes had the best armor, the best dps, the best crit rate, the best ultimate regen rate, and the best heal rate, ever. Therefore, melee DPS characters had to play with a staff and a light armor set, which was clearly not what they first planned when they bought ESO. This was obviously a huge source of frustration, and a countless number of players have stopped the game for this reason.

Starting with update 5, the game has become much more balanced than it was before, and playing a stamina build has started to be viable and pleasant. Despite the fact that there is still some room for improvement, I can see some people wearing off their light armor and their staff for a brand new intermediate armor and some melee weapons. This has led to a situation where ESO now counts a wider variety of archetypes, which starts to increase the player experience in many domains of the game and in Cyrodiil in particular.

So, I just can't believe one second that ZOS is willing to return back to a situation where either stamina builds or magicka builds are no longer viable. Nor to a situation where a specific class would not perform at the same level as the other classes of the game. In fact, the question is: what is the primary role of each class, and how can a player leverage this primary role to get the best of his character. Every one should be useful in most situations.

We should remember the past to understand the present and hope for a better future.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Also why us sorcs who actually rolled the archetypal class meant to be "cloth and staff", do it worse than other classes using cloth and staff and we keep getting nerfed because of those classes keep being overpowered so the more you nerf them, the more we go low?

Elder Scrolls archetypal class for Sorcerer uses heavy armor. Check your lore.

manny254 wrote: »

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ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone. While we aren’t quite ready to discuss all the changes and improvements going into Update 6, we can tell you that many of these changes will specifically address the concerns brought up in this thread. Our primary goal is that regardless of your class and build, you can feel like you can be competitive in the archetype you want to play as.

Then I hope that a templar can tell a competitive group they are a magicka based dps and not get laughed at.

Don't hold your breath on that one.
At least you still have good heals and very effective ultimates.

Erock25 wrote: »

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ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone. While we aren’t quite ready to discuss all the changes and improvements going into Update 6, we can tell you that many of these changes will specifically address the concerns brought up in this thread. Our primary goal is that regardless of your class and build, you can feel like you can be competitive in the archetype you want to play as.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌

If you really want every style of class to be competitive (even in PVP), then both the Sorc and NB need access to a self heal that does not require resto staff.

I knew this would be coming when they caved into the whiners and nerfed BE.

I actually thought it was cool that Sorcs and NBs didn't have a self heal while Temps and DKs did. Sorcs weren't supposed to stand and fight, they were supposed to run (the same way NBs can with Dark Cloak.)

Now they have no class based self-heal and no way to escape.

The overall balance "strategy" (quotations because I doubt they have one) is baffling.

It seems that they just respond to whatever is being complained about at the time on the forums.

Nightreaver wrote: »

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seanvwolf wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

They could presumably change Crit Surge to increase both Spell and Weapon Damage.

This would result in a big problem,... as if this is done Sorc could simply cast inner light, crit surge, negate magic and just drop crushing shock and liquid lightning and nothing would survive in the area.

I'm still not understanding where this huge increase in DPS would be coming from, can someone please explain it to me?

Weapon damage has a softcap of 203.
Spell damage softcap is easily reached with only 2/3 of that at 135.
Changing from weapon damage to spell damage will reduce damage from 203 to 135.
So IF Critical Surge was changed to affect both Spell and weapon damage then using your example I would expect:
1) Crushing Shock and Impulse to still be lower (211 current vs. 135 + Crit Surge buff which will be reduced due to exceeding the lower Spell damage cap)
2) No effect on Inner Light
3) No effect on Negate
4) Small increase to Liquid Lightning (again, with Crit Surge buff being reduced due to exceeding Spell damage cap.

So it seems to me that even IF Crit surge increased both Spell and Weapon damage the result would still be a loss of DPS for Sorcerers which are already on the bottom.

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I'll restate this again because it's been buried by previous posts. Spell damage scales more than weapon damage. If you increase weapon damage by 10, you will see yourself doing 10 more damage. If you increase spell damage by 10, your spells will be doing at least 20 more damage. So if Destro scaled off of spell damage, 130 spell damage might actually be stronger than the current 200 weapon damage.

@Nightreaver‌ you should probably read this again with that. Just because the spell damage soft cap is lower doesn't mean they are a 1-1 ratio on how they affect your damage. 135 could be equal to 205. So depending on how they adjust everything crit surge and the other morph , you could still have the same numbers for crushing shock and impulse.