Close The Game, Give Refund, Relaunch Later.

NadiusMaximus · October 2014

I'm a god killing hero, yet mudcrab and various trash mobs have same health points. Trash mobs hit three times harder with a bow attack than I can with my bow even though I know for a fact they are not wearing the Degree of gear I am.

Pvp is something you roll a single character for in order to min max it in order to be even viable, not the any build will work just fine play as you want that the box said it'd be like. Trials are the same, min max, use this or nope not gonna make it.

How is that balanced

SgtPepperUK · November 2014

Gidorick wrote: »

SgtPepperUK wrote: »

... FFXIV (a game I also play) failed at launch but the 2.0 version is stable and doing well.

Do you think FFXIV would have been as good as it is if it didn't shut down and re-launch.

I'm not agreeing with OP. I don't think ESO should do this... My questions is one of pure curiosity.

So I previously said I would revisit this thread a while ago, I kinda got distracted but given the problems we've seen in the last week it seems a good point to give my thoughts.

The relaunch of FFXIV, I think, was essential. It drew a line under the previous failings and sent a message that told the players they were serious about putting things right. This is in addition to giving the new team some quality time to overhaul the game.

The fact that Square-Enix were prepared, in the short term, to lose money to produce a better game in the long term garnered a lot of attention and respect. In fact, it was quite unprecedented.

Should ESO follow suit? I'm going to say yes, there's little doubt left in my mind that ZOS has some very critical management issues right now.

For example, I'm really at a loss as to how a patch can be pushed prematurely to the EU client on a Sunday morning or how the following day's patch to the US servers didn't even contain everything it should have and not even have all that was listed.

ESO is not beyond redemption. It has a great game world and some very well written quests and NPCs (in terms of story/dialogue, which is separate from the quest bugs which have plagued the game).

But it does seem mismanaged along with, possibly, some underlying issues with the game engine itself. However, the game is not beyond all hope and it would be a shame if it got written off.

New management and an overhaul of game systems, maybe even the engine itself, could really turn ESO around.

To allow the time for this to happen, and to send out a clear message that Zenimax is serious about dealing the issues ESO has, it wouldn't be a terrible idea for the game to do an FFXIV and relaunch entirely.

Never underestimate how forgiving people can be if they see a genuine effort to fix things.

Blade_07 · November 2014

I completely agree with the poster! I have said this a long time ago and gave the same example with Square Enix and FF14. Sad thing is that Zenimax didnt do the honorable thing and close the game down until they got it finished. ESO was & still is a incomplete game with unfinished things in the game and basically no end game content. And after all this time they have not even released an expansion pack but my guess is that they dont have the time to do that. They have been attempting to fix ESO at a snails pace!

UndeadBlood · November 2014

I'm pretty new to the game, I don't know anything about the endgame, but I freakin love it so far. If you want a downtime so they fix things, then just stop paying/playing and wait. You don't decide for everyone else.

Robocles · November 2014

SgtPepperUK wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

SgtPepperUK wrote: »

... FFXIV (a game I also play) failed at launch but the 2.0 version is stable and doing well.

Do you think FFXIV would have been as good as it is if it didn't shut down and re-launch.

I'm not agreeing with OP. I don't think ESO should do this... My questions is one of pure curiosity.

So I previously said I would revisit this thread a while ago, I kinda got distracted but given the problems we've seen in the last week it seems a good point to give my thoughts.

The relaunch of FFXIV, I think, was essential. It drew a line under the previous failings and sent a message that told the players they were serious about putting things right. This is in addition to giving the new team some quality time to overhaul the game.

The fact that Square-Enix were prepared, in the short term, to lose money to produce a better game in the long term garnered a lot of attention and respect. In fact, it was quite unprecedented.

Should ESO follow suit? I'm going to say yes, there's little doubt left in my mind that ZOS has some very critical management issues right now.

For example, I'm really at a loss as to how a patch can be pushed prematurely to the EU client on a Sunday morning or how the following day's patch to the US servers didn't even contain everything it should have and not even have all that was listed.

ESO is not beyond redemption. It has a great game world and some very well written quests and NPCs (in terms of story/dialogue, which is separate from the quest bugs which have plagued the game).

But it does seem mismanaged along with, possibly, some underlying issues with the game engine itself. However, the game is not beyond all hope and it would be a shame if it got written off.

New management and an overhaul of game systems, maybe even the engine itself, could really turn ESO around.

To allow the time for this to happen, and to send out a clear message that Zenimax is serious about dealing the issues ESO has, it wouldn't be a terrible idea for the game to do an FFXIV and relaunch entirely.

Never underestimate how forgiving people can be if they see a genuine effort to fix things.

But... but... they have 2 more platforms they are supposed to launch... oh... right about now. :P

In all seriousness, it may be at this point. The problem is, as a private company, they could just try to get a console launch, pocket the money, and decide "who cares if we can ever get another game published".

Is that the most likely scenario, probably not. But, their evasiveness certainly doesn't make me hopeful about the future health of the game.

kijima · November 2014

SubSeco wrote: »

I'm pretty new to the game, I don't know anything about the endgame, but I freakin love it so far. If you want a downtime so they fix things, then just stop paying/playing and wait. You don't decide for everyone else.

Stop being so reasonable newbie!

In all seriousness, the game 1-50 is nothing but fun so you are in the honeymoon period which I'm sure you know, and I'm glad you are enjoying the game, and you aren't alone either. Plenty of people are enjoying what this games has to offer. And for that reason alone, like you correctly say, no one person has the right to decide for everyone else.

Funny how someone new to the game can understand this and other vets who should know better don't. It's like they have got to VR14 and forgot how they got their and the quests they enjoyed along the way.

Caldwell's Silver and Gold are nothing but Torture for some people and you have that ahead of you, but you can make it whatever you want. I hope you enjoy your questing ahead fellow traveler.

Robocles · November 2014

kijima wrote: »

SubSeco wrote: »

I'm pretty new to the game, I don't know anything about the endgame, but I freakin love it so far. If you want a downtime so they fix things, then just stop paying/playing and wait. You don't decide for everyone else.

Stop being so reasonable newbie!

In all seriousness, the game 1-50 is nothing but fun so you are in the honeymoon period which I'm sure you know, and I'm glad you are enjoying the game, and you aren't alone either. Plenty of people are enjoying what this games has to offer. And for that reason alone, like you correctly say, no one person has the right to decide for everyone else.

Funny how someone new to the game can understand this and other vets who should know better don't. It's like they have got to VR14 and forgot how they got their and the quests they enjoyed along the way.

Caldwell's Silver and Gold are nothing but Torture for some people and you have that ahead of you, but you can make it whatever you want. I hope you enjoy your questing ahead fellow traveler.

The people complaining aren't VR14. Read a bit before you fanboi.

Oh, and it's "how they got there", not "how they got their".

AssaultLemming · November 2014

This thread should be closed.

Robocles · November 2014

Gotta love a good necro, though!

Kronuxx · November 2014

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Its getting better, dks op, fps still buggy, crashing every 2 hours, stam builds are stronger. ..

I'd rather keep playing the beta.

Wait, wha? I don't get it. Stamina builds being buffed is a downfall? So I'm guessing you'd rather keep everyone using gowns and staves? Does not make any sense to me. And although you haven't said it, I can only anticipate you saying that they are overpowered when this is hardly the case. Look up the formulas that people have figured out through testing of game mechanics, and you'll see that magicka is still the go to attribute compared to stamina in regards to generation/management/and overall dps maintenance based on class abilities.

Heh, some people...

nerevarine1138 · November 2014

Why has this thread been necro'd? Did it not kill enough of our collective brain cells the first time around?

kijima · November 2014

Robocles wrote: »

The people complaining aren't VR14. Read a bit before you fanboi.

Oh, and it's "how they got there", not "how they got their".

I was wondering if I'd ever reach fanboi status, thanks for the confirmation. Do I get a special costume of something...

In this thread, plenty of names I recognize as VR14's are complaining, have another look.

P.S. Since it you've made the effort to correct me, I'll make sure I put in some effort with correct grammar as much as possible when I see your name in threads. Wait... No I wont.

Robocles · November 2014

kijima wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

The people complaining aren't VR14. Read a bit before you fanboi.

Oh, and it's "how they got there", not "how they got their".

I was wondering if I'd ever reach fanboi status, thanks for the confirmation. Do I get a special costume of something...

In this thread, plenty of names I recognize as VR14's are complaining, have another look.

P.S. Since it you've made the effort to correct me, I'll make sure I put in some effort with correct grammar as much as possible when I see your name in threads. Wait... No I wont.

I care... really, I do.

Elsonso · November 2014

Well, I am not sure that "new management" would be much in the way of different than "old management".

I do agree that they need to relaunch, and in a sense they are doing that by updating so many systems in-place. They didn't shut the game down, which is OK with me since, as someone pointed out, the PVE 1-50 part of the game is fine.

The mistake that ZOS makes is rolling out bits and pieces at a time, much of it out of context and with no clear direction presented. This leaves people completely in the dark about what they are doing in an environment where people expect fully completed content instead of incremental changes. It may very well be they have no clue where all of this stuff will end up, but they should still share it and make sure we know when it changes.

No one understood what the implications were about XP. I think that most people have no idea what they are doing with XP. It isn't that the developers are clueless about XP related matters, as many have implied, it is that the players are clueless about what, exactly, Zenimax is up to.

If anything, Zenimax needs to be an order of magnitude more transparent about what they are doing. They don't need to do everything players want, for we would never be able to decide amongst ourselves, but they need to stop with the Top Secret stuff. They have to put away the NDA that their employees seem to be under. They need to stop with the Iron Fist that holds all the secrets in. Someone at Zenimax knows, or should know, what is going on in detail. That person should be in the forums posting daily.

They could start with Update 6. Instead of being cryptic about it and feeding us scraps, they should simply tell us now what will be on PTS in the next couple of weeks. Stop with the Road Ahead. Don't make us wait for the next ESO Live. Start talking in the forums and in the News about what they are doing, what they hope to accomplish with Update 6. Let people comment about it. Treat the players like they are part of the game instead of some audience. The ZOS managers are not real "producers" and they are not making a movie.

SgtPepperUK wrote: »

For example, I'm really at a loss as to how a patch can be pushed prematurely to the EU client on a Sunday morning or how the following day's patch to the US servers didn't even contain everything it should have.

I am a loss to understand this. If it is a technological issue in that some tool did something that was unexpected, that is one thing. Fix the tool. I am certain that there is a lot of custom software running things. Even the biggest technology companies fall prey to stuff like this. However, if there was a person who performed a direct action that resulted in either of these things, that is a completely different situation. That person probably cost the company millions of dollars in expense and revenue.

I look to see what they do over the next 5 days. Will they just push out a patch on Thursday like everything is business as usual? I want them to trot out Firor or Sage and have them tell us what is going on with Update 6 and assure us that they have control over their development processes. I want to see them reinvent their public image. I doubt that I will see much in the way of a shift. They will be as secretive in January as they are today.

Be agile, don't just say you are. Make the subscribers your stakeholders.

DanielMaxwell · November 2014

The launch of this game was as bad as the launch of World of Warcraft's launch was , and they are making improvements to the game at a slightly faster rate then Blizzard did in the first year of WoW.

Final Fantasy XIV relaunched because the developers released a badly broken game and the playerbase for that game walked away from the game and told them why . The developers took that feedback and realized that to correct the problems that where driving the players away from the game required a rebuilding of most of the games core systems and that their core vision for the game did not match up with what the playerbase interested in that game wanted . Neither of those are currently applicable to TESO at this time.

TESO is not a badly broken game, it does have some systems that need some tweaks and it's share of balance issues but those are things that every MMO has to deal with regadless of how long they have been out.

Ohioastro · November 2014

The only thing that we learn from threads like this is that people desperately want their opinions to be validated. If the designers of ESO admitted somehow that they'd failed - in some dramatic way - then their unhappiness would be justified.

The game is not going to relaunch. It shouldn't relaunch on the merits - but, more to the point, the act of erasing everything in a game has huge consequences. For example, you *do* know that relaunches wipe all progress, right? As in, all of those real-world months of crafting research flushed down the toilet? All of the things that people have accumulated, gone? All of the hours invested in character development eliminated?

Come on.

Elsonso · November 2014

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

TESO is not a badly broken game, it does have some systems that need some tweaks and it's share of balance issues but those are things that every MMO has to deal with regadless of how long they have been out.

I think parts of it are broken. I think the whole PVP concept in this game is in flames and all they have is a squirt gun. I keep waiting for the people on the PVP side to start cheering at some announcement, but I never do.

I also think that the end game was poorly thought out. The end game parts do not fit together like they should. It is like trying to assemble one puzzle with parts from two different incomplete puzzles. The VR system was a mistake that they did not realize and they are now scrambling to fix it. Craglorn does not fit with the base game. I just dislike the whole concept for the Cadwell silver and gold. To me, the end game and base game seem like two entirely different games. I have absolutely no desire to pay $15/mo to do anything past level 50.

bedlom · November 2014

This post is a joke, posted by a simpleton.

jeevin · November 2014

The 1-50 experience alone doesn't warrant a subscription price though. Buy to play until the game is finished? Maybe as an alternative to shutting down.
But what qualifies as a finished product as far as this game is concerned?

Kreetar · November 2014

I almost can't believe this post is still going. almost.

zaria · November 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

The only thing that we learn from threads like this is that people desperately want their opinions to be validated. If the designers of ESO admitted somehow that they'd failed - in some dramatic way - then their unhappiness would be justified.

The game is not going to relaunch. It shouldn't relaunch on the merits - but, more to the point, the act of erasing everything in a game has huge consequences. For example, you *do* know that relaunches wipe all progress, right? As in, all of those real-world months of crafting research flushed down the toilet? All of the things that people have accumulated, gone? All of the hours invested in character development eliminated?

Come on.

This, the idea is totally idiotic. Most stupid idea on this forum in a long time.
My guess it that they would loose majority of the player base, including the ones wanting it.
And for that, an game change get screwed up and we get reduced xp for 2 weeks.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Why has this thread been necro'd? Did it not kill enough of our collective brain cells the first time around?

Kreetar wrote: »

I almost can't believe this post is still going. almost.

Yeah, talk about flogging an dead horse, or as this is a necro should that be flogging an undead horse?

cesmode · November 2014

Chubbaz wrote: »

As the title suggests with the current way of things I strongly believe this is the only way.

ESO is still a buggy beta and although it's been out for a little short of half a year it's hilarious that it is still in a poor state.

Why should we pay monthly for a game that's not even 100% done and polished on top of the initial price we had to pay with no additional rewards or a thank you from Zeni for sticking around through what has been a very chaotic and turbulent time? Final Fantasy XIV relaunched after the original was a colossal flop but their relaunch was actually successful and still has many people playing. I hope Zeni takes notes and does the same thing, call it a fresh start if you will but those who have stuck around should get like an additional title or something when it goes back up.

As we are paying customers I feel we should be getting a bit more for what we're paying for each month. I love this game as much as the next guy and I thank Zeni for all their hard work but a bit of downtime would fix alot of problems.

hmmm, No.

Beta was buggy. Beta was WAY WAY buggy. I waited until a week ago to get the game and I haven't run into a single bug. No game crashes, lockups, disconnects, nothing of that sort. I've not seen a single bot compared to other recently launched games where they were everywhere. No exploiting going on as far as I can see. No gold-buying zone chat spamming.

Assuming you are referring to a few things you would like them to do better at max level, and a few bugs regarding some writs or whatever...I have not seen one design or code flaw in the game since picking it up. I am extremely surprised, and Im not easily surprised. I expected a few bugs here and there..so far NONE. Zero.

Game is good for me thus far. And when I hit max level and drop another 20-50 hours into it or whatever grinding out vet level ranks...and if then I have "nothing" to do..thats ok too because in ALL MMOS you run out of things to do eventually.

Elsonso · November 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

The game is not going to relaunch. It shouldn't relaunch on the merits - but, more to the point, the act of erasing everything in a game has huge consequences. For example, you *do* know that relaunches wipe all progress, right? As in, all of those real-world months of crafting research flushed down the toilet? All of the things that people have accumulated, gone? All of the hours invested in character development eliminated?
Come on.

This does not have to be true. A relaunch can be done that brings the existing game forward. This is most easily done by relaunching individual parts at a time rather than the whole at once.

Champion System is a relaunch of whatever void was filled by Veteran Ranks. The hate and discontent that we see with XP is because they are doing it in-place, while the game is running, rather than all at once. This is a good thing.

They are doing a lot of things in-place rather than waiting for a big release. They are balancing the classes and weapons skills in-place. This causes problems because people don't see them as interim steps but as final steps. Still, this is a good thing.

I see these interim steps as an opportunity. Far from "ruining" the game, these changes do the opposite. They make it a better game. If XP needs to be tweaked in the final Champion System, this is the time to do it, not after Champion System is done.

Done right, this is a powerful selling point of the game and forms a bond between the subscribers and the developers. Done like Zenimax does it, it forms a chasm.

By the time the 1st Anniversary rolls around, ESO will be a very different game from when it launched. They will have relaunched in-place two, maybe three, major systems in the game and added a number of new features. I only hope that enough people are still around to enjoy it.

Cherryblossom · November 2014

Tabbycat wrote: »

Game is fine.

Great quote, I truly love this quote. I'm assuming you have a game in mind!

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Bitter much? What are you complaining about, anyway? Look around you: there are piles of new games on Steam and elsewhere, where lots of people throw money at developers and their products in alpha state, i.e. software that's not even feature-complete, just to gain "early access". Seems there's already a viable market for this. You want to tell all those people they are stupid?

People generally complain because they would actually like the game to get better!
This, just go somewhere else if you don't like it, does not help the game. The people who complain would like things to get better, their raging is a by product of ZOS viewed indifference to issues.
MMO style games seem to be the ones which believe they can distribute games half finished on basis it will get better over time. It's then down to the players to decide if they want to stick with the game or leave.
In my case, they have currently kept my interest with the idea of the Champion system and Spell Crafting. However I'm truly thinking about cancelling my Sub and waiting for this to come out. If the Current XP bug is not fixed I will probably do this, as I won't be able to progress my two VETS and PVP is still unplayable.

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Btw, what you're complaining about is hardly a new phenomenon: ten years ago a game called Sacred was released, and it was so buggy that the devs at one point had put out beta patches to the general public in order to verify that specific issues had been fixed. You needed to reinstall the game from scratch every time the "official" patches were released afterwards, but guess what? People sucked up those beta patches anyway. Seems gamers as a whole haven't gotten any wiser in a decade, have they?

Because a company 10 years ago screwed up, we should just accept it, the reason people play the game is because they are hoping it will get better and their continued input may help.

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

You want high quality, bug-free software? Get out of your comfy chair, go get a degree in CS, and start developing games yourself. Try to get a title out of the door without starving in-between. Then you can talk.

I do brain surgery and I pay others to program my games, I expect them to be as professional as me.

NotSo · November 2014

You don't have to stick around if you don't want to, it's on your dollar.
A lot of people already think this way and unsubbed a long time ago, that's why you don't see folks complaining in /z so much anymore.

renton1x1x1 · November 2014

/giggles

ThisOnePosts · November 2014

Mondo wrote: »

You lost me at "this is the only way" how about you unsub then go wait couple of month and come back ok. The point is you DONT have to pay ^^

Let me just place this quote right here. It sums up the solution for the OP and others necroing this thread who think along those narrow lines that the OP does

sagitter · November 2014

The only faster way to make a stable and an almost complete mmo is playing it by many players as possibile. Look at beta,where most of players didn t play it...
The real beta started the 4th april.Since that date fixing things has been quicker.

liquid_wolf · November 2014

People who are complaining need to unsub, pay into a few more MMORPGs, go through their emotional rollercoaster there, and then come back to ESO.

Just like relationships.

I'm wondering what happened to Wildstar and Archeage... I hope they are doing ok and happy in their life. Oh look, I see World Of Warcraft is putting on another show soon. I remember some good times there... but I've moved on. Good for them, though.