LookingForGriefer: Musings on the nature of groups in ESO

OldSmeller · November 2014

Without a LFG system ESO group content is a mixed bag. I don't mean that as in there is some good stuff with some bad stuff. I mean every time you grab around looking for something decent you get slimy stinky goop on your hands.

Over the past week I have been conducting an informal experiment to see how much time it takes to clear a simple public delve in craglorn. I have found that the single most difficult aspect of this game is finding people who want to do the same content that you do. The second most difficult thing is finding people who know how to do the above.

More than half of the Vet14 people I had my in groups less than half of them had any idea what a wayshrine was or how to use it. They simply walked everywhere which took a long time causing other members of the party to leave.

Provided by some miracle you find people that want to do the content with you, you need a tank and a healer. This is tricky as like any MMO these roles are hard to fill. It's even worse when the healer is trying to tank or the tank is trying to dps. On several occasions I was out healing the healer, and kiteing mobs better than the tank. My ambient healing shouldn't be more than the direct heals of an actual healer, what gives?

Here is where it gets interesting, several of the healers I have had over the past week didn't know that they could slot healing skills into their action bar. Keep in mind these are vet 12-14 players in craglorn. Despite being able to somehow make it to this high level they had no idea that the action bar could be changed or swaped with different skills.

Most of the tanks would taunt and CC ads rather than focus on the boss, when in one particular case I asked why the tank was doing this he started spinning then walked into a cave wall before logging out.

~Join a Guild~
They said.

I have been in several PVE themed guilds and one constant is 5~/400. Out of 400 or so people maybe 5 to 12 of them are actually online at any given time. If I found a guild where at different peek times of day I was unable to even get anybody to respond to queries regarding delves I would leave.

I was in a guild that supposedly specialized in craglorn and to my total lack of surprise this was not the case. We were attempting to clear one of the lower crag delves when the healer started removing her armor and then rushed into battle triggering an attack from the mobs. The tank rushed in valiantly only to get stuck behind some mine-cart geometry and die in a fire. When asked why she removed her armor she said it was so she would not lose durability. I asked why she triggered the mobs and she went afk for about 45mins (I waited I was curious) when returning she explained in all caps that we were terrible at the game and didn't understand the boss fight (we weren't at a boss we had just entered). She left and then the tank followed.

I am no longer a member of that guild.

Conclusion: If you have more free time then sense group content in eso might be for you. If you are like me and have a job and/or real world responsibilities your best bet is to stick to solo content until ESO institutes a standardized test and sends everybody left of the bell curve to a different phase.

pppontus · November 2014

You should find a good guild. One who kick inactives and, most importantly, jerks.

OldSmeller · November 2014

pppontus wrote: »

You should find a good guild. One who kick inactives and, most importantly, jerks.

That is itself difficult. There are plenty of pretenders and still another time investment before you can do the content.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=nyBTFyrUXyk

Above is my friend G-Gnome reading the thread in slow motion.

jkirchner71ub17_ESO2 · November 2014

Not to sound like a dog with an old bone who just won't let it go but Craglorn, albeit very cool, undermined player development in some respects. In many MMOs players slowly develop and hone their play as they level up and then you hit the "end game" and you continue to do the same through various methods depending on the MMO (combat rating, gear score, etc.). Craglorn hurt player development as it opened the door to xp farming where skill meant nothing as long as you had the numbers around you. I don't know what the solution is but there is no doubt the Craglorn grinds haven't helped cultivate more well rounded players it just allowed inexperienced players to race to the cap and this is who you now have to rely on for grouping unless you are lucky or are in an active PvE guild. Fortunately my guild has been amazing and we have brought in quite a few of these inexperienced players and they are now quite capable "end game" players.

xaraan · November 2014

jkirchner71ub17_ESO2 wrote: »

Not to sound like a dog with an old bone who just won't let it go but Craglorn, albeit very cool, undermined player development in some respects. In many MMOs players slowly develop and hone their play as they level up and then you hit the "end game" and you continue to do the same through various methods depending on the MMO (combat rating, gear score, etc.). Craglorn hurt player development as it opened the door to xp farming where skill meant nothing as long as you had the numbers around you. I don't know what the solution is but there is no doubt the Craglorn grinds haven't helped cultivate more well rounded players it just allowed inexperienced players to race to the cap and this is who you now have to rely on for grouping unless you are lucky or are in an active PvE guild. Fortunately my guild has been amazing and we have brought in quite a few of these inexperienced players and they are now quite capable "end game" players.

This.

I've found a lot more high level players that don't really know how to make the most of their characters because they haven't really played the game deeply and speed leveled.

There is a lot to be said for having experience with your character. Even in our regular 4 man group, we all have a few alts and switch roles in dungeons with our alts. We can feel a big difference running with our mains vs. running with classes we don't play quite as often and in roles we don't play as often (even though we all have good experience with those classes and roles it's not the same). So you can imagine what trouble someone that has practically zero xp with their class can have.

Our guild is mostly PvE oriented and has taken in plenty of players that wanted to learn more. We will offer them what advice we can if they want our advice. It's up to them what they do with the information however.

Edit: also, viva la venatus!

OldSmeller · November 2014

My frustrations come from what appears to be an MMO that isn't sure if it wants to be casual or not. This is exacerbated by a community of people waiting eagerly to be spoon fed content, carried or otherwise sleep-walk through the game as though they were the poster children for cognitive decline.

I tried clearing shad's tear the other night and we had gotten halfway through when we realized the healer didn't even have the quest. When we finally got to the final boss we wiped every time because myself and one other player were the only ones who didn't stand in the aoe.

I honestly will record it next time, it's comical and devastating at the same time.
Players will say things like "I didn't stand in the aoe" while standing in the aoe every single time. I think very poor reaction time and not lack of skill is what sounds the death knell for most groups.

Some of the people I run with are very talented but they react as though intoxicated. If I want something done right in this game (like any other modern MMO) I need to pay them. I pay 2k for a decent healer or tank and about 5 k per person for a "sure thing".

If I really want to clear something without wipes or mess ups I have to shell out 15k. Mind you, I with that investment I don't have to worry about 45min bio breaks or members randomly going afk or asking questions like "What is a wayshrine?".

MMOs shouldn't become a capitalistic dystopia but they are.

WraithAzraiel · November 2014

I blame WoW and Call of Duty for the introduction of d-bags into pure gamer society.

Used to be, gamers would help one another - PvP would be less filled with teabagging/clamdipping.

Then the ROFLMAOCOPTERPANTS 00B3rNUBSL@YER I MUST WIN THE WEBBERNETS AND BE TEH B3ST PLAYAR 3VAR invaded and turned grouping into a nightmare.

I blame kids and I blame their parents for encouraging mediocrity. This everyone is special and fine just the way they are nonsense is incorrect and will ultimately lead to failure and death.

Now get off my lawn.

WraithAzraiel · November 2014

Join a social guild or a PvX guild. Limiting something like a guild to 1 thing will get stale and dry out.

With the exception of hardcore PvP and PvE guilds, the more casual ones peter off into obscurity. But a social guild where the point is to just game with people and hang out, do stuff without any obligations or time constraints. Sounds pretty good to me.

KhajitFurTrader · November 2014

Didn't I get the note that officially redefined griefing as "being inept or inexperienced at sth."?

I fail to see the griefing that the thread title promised so sensationally. From what I read, the people you played with didn't do this deliberately just to spite you. They just didn't know better. This may be bad in your book, but insinuating malintent where there is none is even worse in mine. Hanlon's Razor applies here as well.

So, while all this bashing of and picking on fellow players (that's what is really is) may be briefly entertaining, the real point here is this: you can (and even should) do something about it, but you came to the wrong conclusion. Instead of segregating yourself from others, you could teach them how to play properly. If you think you can't find the right people to play with, groom those that show eagerness and willingness to learn. They might even thank you for doing it.

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I blame WoW and Call of Duty for the introduction of d-bags into pure gamer society.

Used to be, gamers would help one another - PvP would be less filled with teabagging/clamdipping.

Then the ROFLMAOCOPTERPANTS 00B3rNUBSL@YER I MUST WIN THE WEBBERNETS AND BE TEH B3ST PLAYAR 3VAR invaded and turned grouping into a nightmare.

I blame kids and I blame their parents for encouraging mediocrity. This everyone is special and fine just the way they are nonsense is incorrect and will ultimately lead to failure and death.

Now get off my lawn.

I think this about sums it up.

http://youtu.be/LkCNJRfSZBU

driosketch · November 2014

I feel for you OS, but those are some hilariously psycho players you've found.

Also don't know if you missed it since you were gone, but the Craglorn grinds are why you are going to find so many inept players who are maxed level.

OldSmeller · November 2014

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Didn't I get the note that officially redefined griefing as "being inept or inexperienced at sth."?

I fail to see the griefing that the thread title promised so sensationally. From what I read, the people you played with didn't do this deliberately just to spite you. They just didn't know better. This may be bad in your book, but insinuating malintent where there is none is even worse in mine. Hanlon's Razor applies here as well.

So, while all this bashing of and picking on fellow players (that's what is really is) may be briefly entertaining, the real point here is this: you can (and even should) do something about it, but you came to the wrong conclusion. Instead of segregating yourself from others, you could teach them how to play properly. If you think you can't find the right people to play with, groom those that show eagerness and willingness to learn. They might even thank you for doing it.

You are victim blaming and I find it rather inappropriate.

KhajitFurTrader · November 2014

OldSmeller wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Didn't I get the note that officially redefined griefing as "being inept or inexperienced at sth."?

I fail to see the griefing that the thread title promised so sensationally. From what I read, the people you played with didn't do this deliberately just to spite you. They just didn't know better. This may be bad in your book, but insinuating malintent where there is none is even worse in mine. Hanlon's Razor applies here as well.

So, while all this bashing of and picking on fellow players (that's what is really is) may be briefly entertaining, the real point here is this: you can (and even should) do something about it, but you came to the wrong conclusion. Instead of segregating yourself from others, you could teach them how to play properly. If you think you can't find the right people to play with, groom those that show eagerness and willingness to learn. They might even thank you for doing it.

You are victim blaming and I find it rather inappropriate.

Oh, so now you're a victim of your fellow players? Seriously? You've previously exaggerated the griefing part, I'm beginning to see a pattern here...

Playing badly because not knowing it better is still not a crime, you know. I've already told how you could remedy that. Sometimes, a little patience and tolerance will go a long way. Unless, of course, you're trying to get your clichés confirmed. Others will be helpful in this regard, too, no doubt about it. But then at least you get to make derogatory posts about those others in the forums, so you got that going for you, which isn't nice.

kewl · November 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I blame WoW and Call of Duty for the introduction of d-bags into pure gamer society.

Used to be, gamers would help one another - PvP would be less filled with teabagging/clamdipping.

Then the ROFLMAOCOPTERPANTS 00B3rNUBSL@YER I MUST WIN THE WEBBERNETS AND BE TEH B3ST PLAYAR 3VAR invaded and turned grouping into a nightmare.

I blame kids and I blame their parents for encouraging mediocrity. This everyone is special and fine just the way they are nonsense is incorrect and will ultimately lead to failure and death.

Now get off my lawn.

Some people just have less time and interest. Also, My pug experiences haven't been that bad.

WraithAzraiel · November 2014

Facetious post is facetious.

OldSmeller · November 2014

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

OldSmeller wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Didn't I get the note that officially redefined griefing as "being inept or inexperienced at sth."?

I fail to see the griefing that the thread title promised so sensationally. From what I read, the people you played with didn't do this deliberately just to spite you. They just didn't know better. This may be bad in your book, but insinuating malintent where there is none is even worse in mine. Hanlon's Razor applies here as well.

So, while all this bashing of and picking on fellow players (that's what is really is) may be briefly entertaining, the real point here is this: you can (and even should) do something about it, but you came to the wrong conclusion. Instead of segregating yourself from others, you could teach them how to play properly. If you think you can't find the right people to play with, groom those that show eagerness and willingness to learn. They might even thank you for doing it.

You are victim blaming and I find it rather inappropriate.

Oh, so now you're a victim of your fellow players? Seriously? You've previously exaggerated the griefing part, I'm beginning to see a pattern here...

Playing badly because not knowing it better is still not a crime, you know. I've already told how you could remedy that. Sometimes, a little patience and tolerance will go a long way. Unless, of course, you're trying to get your clichés confirmed. Others will be helpful in this regard, too, no doubt about it. But then at least you get to make derogatory posts about those others in the forums, so you got that going for you, which isn't nice.

Please don't flame or attempt to instigate pointless arguments here. I also think you should do some research on what it means to grief somebody in the context of an online game. It's a gradient, ranging from the malicious prankster to the apathetic incompetent. No matter how you try and spin it, it drives people away from the game and that is not a good thing.

When people "Play" a "Game", especially one that costs a monthly fee the last thing they want is to be harassed or greifed. When I am in a noob area I love to teach and mentor players on how the game works, because that area is for people that are new and don't know everything yet.

When I am doing what is by all accounts considered "End Game Content" and I am in a group with people that behave as though they stole the account or bought it off ebay, that's not ok.

My patience tends to evaporate when I realize that nobody in my group even knows what a rotation is or that they can change the skills in their action bar. As I said if I was in a non-crag area I would not be upset by this and would gladly mentor the players.

Note: I have found one way to save hours and hours of time. Use an AOE spell and tell your party to doge roll out of it as soon as they can. If they stand in it for 2seconds or longer even after practice than you just kick them and replace them. I am working on a guide to concisely test the lucidity and sobriety of players in a pug before ever committing to content.

Madoracle · December 2014

At least you can get a group. As of 08DEC14, I stood in craglorn... used the grouping tool, called out over zone chat, for a solid hour.

Not one freaking person in craglorn that just wants to do the quests or delves.

Life is tough for a vr11 solo player.

AlnilamE · December 2014

@Madoracle‌ if you are in EP NA, let me know. I am planning on spending this Vet rank in Craglorn to see how long it takes to go up a level there.

I was chatting with someone last night who was looking for a group, but unfortunately, it was too late for me to take up another quest.

I think one thing is, if you are in a good social guild, you'll get to Craglorn with a pre-formed group, and you have a 4-person limitation for most of the quests.

fuzzbunnies · December 2014

this is what happens when people "Grind" from lv 1-v14 they act like they just bought the game and don't know how to play.

OldSmeller · December 2016

fuzzbunnies wrote: »

this is what happens when people "Grind" from lv 1-v14 they act like they just bought the game and don't know how to play.

I am returning to this game in hopes that these problems are not as bad as they were.

XDragonDoomX · December 2016

OldSmeller wrote: »

fuzzbunnies wrote: »

this is what happens when people "Grind" from lv 1-v14 they act like they just bought the game and don't know how to play.

I am returning to this game in hopes that these problems are not as bad as they were.

........

........

...... LOL

OldSmeller · December 2016

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

OldSmeller wrote: »

fuzzbunnies wrote: »

this is what happens when people "Grind" from lv 1-v14 they act like they just bought the game and don't know how to play.

I am returning to this game in hopes that these problems are not as bad as they were.

........

........

...... LOL

Judging by your response I am going to guess it's still pretty bad...
That's not very comforting.

XDragonDoomX · December 2016

Players are more knowledgeable for the most part
PVP skills have reduced since the introduction of 'proc sets'
Read the forums though for some sad/funny/'oh-god, just let me slam my head against the wall to make it end' tales of group experiences

Don't even start on the changes to crafting writs..
or crown crates..

Kodrac · December 2016

Holy necro, Batman!

lehran · December 2016

I've been in solid PUGs (even adding people to my friends list and running multiple dungeons with them) and terrible PUGs who not only not know what they're doing, but seemingly refuse to learn or respond in chat when informed about things like boss mechanics or basic stuff like "go revive the healer if they die" and "don't stand in red, that kills you." Overall, I've been in more good (or at least decent) ones, where we can finish the thing, than bad ones.

So... try it and see? And if you find some randoms that you enjoy playing with, friend them so that you can maybe play with them again in the future.

Junipus · December 2016

Kodrac wrote: »

Holy necro, Batman!

At least in this instance he's necroing his own post with a relevant follow up, even if it's ultimately doomed.

Florial · December 2016

@OldSmeller The game has changed dramatically since you first played two years ago. Craglorn in particular has been revamped to make it more solo friendly. I haven't done the zone yet but really looking forward to it. I did do one daily quest with another player asking for help and it was a blast. Challenging but very fun. From what I can tell, the Craglorn revamp was a needed change. What is even nicer is that the world feels very full again. It is pretty easy to group up and do loads of content. All the zones seem pretty full now with One Tamriel.

I think that you still find players of all skill levels in the world. Really true of any MMO. My experiences with group play for the most part have been rather positive. We may have a wipe or two in a dungeon but not on the scale of what you described in your previous post. The game has been out for two years now so probably some of the newness is gone.

Definitely worth trying again. Great game imo.

OldSmeller · December 2016

Florial wrote: »

@OldSmeller The game has changed dramatically since you first played two years ago. Craglorn in particular has been revamped to make it more solo friendly. I haven't done the zone yet but really looking forward to it. I did do one daily quest with another player asking for help and it was a blast. Challenging but very fun. From what I can tell, the Craglorn revamp was a needed change. What is even nicer is that the world feels very full again. It is pretty easy to group up and do loads of content. All the zones seem pretty full now with One Tamriel.

I think that you still find players of all skill levels in the world. Really true of any MMO. My experiences with group play for the most part have been rather positive. We may have a wipe or two in a dungeon but not on the scale of what you described in your previous post. The game has been out for two years now so probably some of the newness is gone.

Definitely worth trying again. Great game imo.

Everything appears to scale now, so I can no longer solo group bosses and actually have to wait around in hopes of finding groups. These changes increase the time-to-content.

Edit: I can also see that the ping is still as bad as it was on release. 100-200 MS average. Anything above 80 MS is not good for pvp and you start to have the same stalling in animations when it's over 50 ms.

[Deleted User] · December 2016

Hello everyone,

This post is to let you know that we've felt it necessary to put this thread down as it seemed to have died some time ago. At this time we'd like to try and keep Draugr threads from roaming around front page, pushing down newer and more lively threads. Though we are happy to see you have decided to give Tamriel another shot! Many hopes that you enjoy your time back, and feel free to create a newer thread on your experience.

Thank you for understanding!