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When the stamina vs magicka imbalance will be fixed ?
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badg3rband1tb14_ESOSoul ShrivenOne idea I have that would go a long way to balancing the game would be this: make EVERY SINGLE class skill scale in damage to magicka OR STAMINA. This way, neither magicka builds nor stamina builds would have a distinct advantage, and in both builds class skills will still be useful. However, they could also take an approach where no one has an advantage like this where everyone does less damage (unless they buff numbers of attacks) - make class abilities scale in damage/healing with total magicka AND stamina. So if you had 3000 magicka and 1000 stamina, that would be added to 4000/2=2000 that would apply for scaling. Just like if someone had 2000 stamina and 1500 magicka, that would be 3500/2=1750 that would apply for scaling.
I feel QUITE strongly that this needs to be done in order to take a step into fixing the terrible lack of balance between stamina and magicka builds. If magicka benefits 100% of class skills while stamina benefits 0% of class skills, something's clearly not right. It would make sense, nightblades, DKs, and templars are often depicted as being mele characters, why wouldn't having an impressive physique and talent for mele combat NOT make class skills hit harder?
In addition to that, there are more ways to fix this as well. I would even go to the extreme of saying that mele dps abilities should hit 10-20% harder all across the board. Since the risk is always higher of dying when doing mele dps, wouldn't it make sense to make every hit count for more? I mean, if some sorc can just sit back and only have to avoid easy little circles and still do the same damage as you with only working half as hard, doesn't that take the fun out of the risk you take being mele?
Also I hate to be that guy, but World of Warcraft has had some decent moments where mele dps are in a position where they are actually SOUGHT OUT for invites because they do enough damage to justify having a few spots, whereas in this game (young still), you will only get to see trials if you put on a dress and a stick.
While I enjoy magic just as much as the next bloke, sorry, I didn't come to play Elder Staves Online...I feel like I'm only getting 1/2 of the game I'm paying for when I can't mele AT ALL in endgame (I love being a mele). The game is still young though and they're slow to make changes for better or worse, they've fixed some things already, so I think they will fix stamina eventually...I just hope they do it soon. My suggestion for class abilities is the best fix to implement next in my opinion, class skills scaling off magicka is the biggest issue here. Then add some kind of balance abilitity that sacrifices magicka/health in the dark brotherhood or thieves guild skill line to have an equal to equilibrium. Also make all mele weapons (possibly bow?) hit harder passively, such as making all mele weapons do 15% more damage passively, or bow having 15% more passive damage. It may sound crazy, but even adding 15% to the already terribly low (by comparison to magic) dps of stamina builds, it still wouldn't make up for the disparity by itself.Edited by badg3rband1tb14_ESO on July 17, 2014 8:13AM0 -
Morticide828✭✭✭1.4.4.finally great change yay!
I agree strongly! Easily putting out over 1k dps now. Also, there's some heal that templars have that regens stamina.
I love it
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defilade__ESO✭✭✭The game is designed in a way where in order to be an effective stamina build, you have to alternate between class and weapon abilities - plus misc. skills. Once a player realizes this the sooner he will realize that there isn't such an imbalance that many people claim there is - it is simply the way the game is designed.
One can try to combat it all he want, but in the process one will simply gimp oneself. That really isn't the game's fault, to be honest.
Then why isn't the reverse true? It is entirely possible to build not only an effective, but an insanely powerful magicka build and use zero stamina abilities at all, reserving stamina purely for blocking, dodging and sprinting. it's not even hard to do so, it's incredibly easyThat's not to say that certain weapon skills don't need to be modified because sure they do. And especially the armor passives - they are key to leveling out the playing field some more.
This is certainly true - the light armor passives are head and shoulders above medium and heavy in the gaming impact they bring.
We need, soon, some way to fix the huge in-game imbalance between magicka and stamina, caused in very large part by the multiple pulls on the stamina pool (many of which make no sense - why do i use stamina to break out of a magical constraint?).
I honestly think the devs seriously believed all players would be happy with the class skill 'flash' and wouldn't really want to use weapon skills, which is absolutely ridiculous given the franchise's history and low fantasy feel.
Agreed, currently we make a magicka build that does not ever use stamina except for the occasional sprint, dodge roll or block. The magicka based hordes flip the finger to stamina. However, you cannot make a stamina build that never uses magicka unless you want to be a gimped character, because your class skills ALL use magicka.
Each class has unique class skill lines that use magicka. What this game needs are unique class skill lines for the melee weapons and bow, (or spear if we ever get one.)
There really is no way to manage stamina, or weapon crit, besides just dumping stamina into your pool.
Mage's guild has Inner Light for a 20% spell crit bonus, and it also has a skill for sacrificing health for magicka, so you can manage your mana pool and easily boost spell critical chance.
For those of us who have played Daggerfall, Oblivion and Skyrim, what we want is the choice to make a stamina build that flips the finger to magicka, like a light armor, destro staff DK flips off stamina, and still do as much DPS and be as flexible as every magicka build out there.Edited by defilade__ESO on October 20, 2014 1:46AM0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »trimsic_ESO wrote: »The game is designed in a way where in order to be an effective stamina build, you have to alternate between class and weapon abilities - plus misc. skills. Once a player realizes this the sooner he will realize that there isn't such an imbalance that many people claim there is - it is simply the way the game is designed.
One can try to combat it all he want, but in the process one will simply gimp oneself. That really isn't the game's fault, to be honest.
That's not to say that certain weapon skills don't need to be modified because sure they do. And especially the armor passives - they are key to leveling out the playing field some more.
In order to have an effective magicka build, I don't have to alternate between class and weapon abilities. I can equip a full set of light armor, use a destruction staff, and then use my stamina to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break.
Furthermore, even if I alternate between class and weapon abilities, then I still do not have a stamina build that is as effective as a magicka build. Go figure...
What is the rationale here? The game is designed like this, that's what you said? Well, in that case, I really don't like the way it is designed, because such a design creates a huge imbalance between stamina and magicka builds.
At least the game should implement another pool of resources, call it endurance or whatever else, and this spool should be used to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break. And in addition to that, melee combat skills should hit for much more that any other spells at range. It's just a question of common sense.
You state that Melee abilities should hit harder than ranged spells. WHY?
Because you are charging your enemy head on, while with ranged spells you are much safer.0 -
trimsic_ESO✭✭✭✭✭There's a long long way to go before stamina builds are on par with magicka.
Yes, I can see the gap between the two archetypes being narrowed at each patch. But there is so much work to do for a real balance... How many players will be able to wait for such a long time?
I've always been a melee character since the last 12 years in MMOs. It's now almost 7 months that I'm frustrated with by stamina DK build in ESO....
Not to mention this "@#!!&@!!" 5 skills limitation per bar, whose only effect is to add to the frustration while preventing ESO from releasing it's full potential.
Anyway, thanks for your comments guys!0 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »trimsic_ESO wrote: »The game is designed in a way where in order to be an effective stamina build, you have to alternate between class and weapon abilities - plus misc. skills. Once a player realizes this the sooner he will realize that there isn't such an imbalance that many people claim there is - it is simply the way the game is designed.
One can try to combat it all he want, but in the process one will simply gimp oneself. That really isn't the game's fault, to be honest.
That's not to say that certain weapon skills don't need to be modified because sure they do. And especially the armor passives - they are key to leveling out the playing field some more.
In order to have an effective magicka build, I don't have to alternate between class and weapon abilities. I can equip a full set of light armor, use a destruction staff, and then use my stamina to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break.
Furthermore, even if I alternate between class and weapon abilities, then I still do not have a stamina build that is as effective as a magicka build. Go figure...
What is the rationale here? The game is designed like this, that's what you said? Well, in that case, I really don't like the way it is designed, because such a design creates a huge imbalance between stamina and magicka builds.
At least the game should implement another pool of resources, call it endurance or whatever else, and this spool should be used to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break. And in addition to that, melee combat skills should hit for much more that any other spells at range. It's just a question of common sense.
You state that Melee abilities should hit harder than ranged spells. WHY?
Because you are charging your enemy head on, while with ranged spells you are much safer.
This. It's called risk versus rewards. An incredibly important element to combat balance in MMOs.
Even if it's not just higher raw damage, melee must be rewarded in some way for taking on the extra risk of being in melee range.0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »Shaun98ca2 wrote: »trimsic_ESO wrote: »The game is designed in a way where in order to be an effective stamina build, you have to alternate between class and weapon abilities - plus misc. skills. Once a player realizes this the sooner he will realize that there isn't such an imbalance that many people claim there is - it is simply the way the game is designed.
One can try to combat it all he want, but in the process one will simply gimp oneself. That really isn't the game's fault, to be honest.
That's not to say that certain weapon skills don't need to be modified because sure they do. And especially the armor passives - they are key to leveling out the playing field some more.
In order to have an effective magicka build, I don't have to alternate between class and weapon abilities. I can equip a full set of light armor, use a destruction staff, and then use my stamina to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break.
Furthermore, even if I alternate between class and weapon abilities, then I still do not have a stamina build that is as effective as a magicka build. Go figure...
What is the rationale here? The game is designed like this, that's what you said? Well, in that case, I really don't like the way it is designed, because such a design creates a huge imbalance between stamina and magicka builds.
At least the game should implement another pool of resources, call it endurance or whatever else, and this spool should be used to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break. And in addition to that, melee combat skills should hit for much more that any other spells at range. It's just a question of common sense.
You state that Melee abilities should hit harder than ranged spells. WHY?
Because you are charging your enemy head on, while with ranged spells you are much safer.
This. It's called risk versus rewards. An incredibly important element to combat balance in MMOs.
Even if it's not just higher raw damage, melee must be rewarded in some way for taking on the extra risk of being in melee range.
Risk is one thing, uptime is another. With a ranged weapon youre always at the right distance to do damage. With a melee weapon you can only do damage when youre within 5-6m of the target. Which means that with a ranged weapon you can keep up almost constant DPS because youre avoiding most of the PBAOE attacks just by standing away from the boss... and youre doing that anyway. Playing melee on the other hand involves a lot of running in and out, dropping your DPS completely to avoid getting killed. And then you have switching between targets which for a ranged fighter means noting more than moving the camera a bit to the left or right and for a melee fighter it means running around and using up resources on gap closers.Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on October 26, 2014 2:32PMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.1 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Thejollygreenone wrote: »Shaun98ca2 wrote: »trimsic_ESO wrote: »The game is designed in a way where in order to be an effective stamina build, you have to alternate between class and weapon abilities - plus misc. skills. Once a player realizes this the sooner he will realize that there isn't such an imbalance that many people claim there is - it is simply the way the game is designed.
One can try to combat it all he want, but in the process one will simply gimp oneself. That really isn't the game's fault, to be honest.
That's not to say that certain weapon skills don't need to be modified because sure they do. And especially the armor passives - they are key to leveling out the playing field some more.
In order to have an effective magicka build, I don't have to alternate between class and weapon abilities. I can equip a full set of light armor, use a destruction staff, and then use my stamina to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break.
Furthermore, even if I alternate between class and weapon abilities, then I still do not have a stamina build that is as effective as a magicka build. Go figure...
What is the rationale here? The game is designed like this, that's what you said? Well, in that case, I really don't like the way it is designed, because such a design creates a huge imbalance between stamina and magicka builds.
At least the game should implement another pool of resources, call it endurance or whatever else, and this spool should be used to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break. And in addition to that, melee combat skills should hit for much more that any other spells at range. It's just a question of common sense.
You state that Melee abilities should hit harder than ranged spells. WHY?
Because you are charging your enemy head on, while with ranged spells you are much safer.
This. It's called risk versus rewards. An incredibly important element to combat balance in MMOs.
Even if it's not just higher raw damage, melee must be rewarded in some way for taking on the extra risk of being in melee range.
Risk is one thing, uptime is another. With a ranged weapon youre always at the right distance to do damage. With a melee weapon you can only do damage when youre within 5-6m of the target. Which means that with a ranged weapon you can keep up almost constant DPS because youre avoiding most of the PBAOE attacks just by standing away from the boss... and youre doing that anyway. Playing melee on the other hand involves a lot of running in and out, dropping your DPS completely to avoid getting killed. And then you have switching between targets which for a ranged fighter means noting more than moving the camera a bit to the left or right and for a melee fighter it means running around and using up resources on gap closers.
While you do have a point, I would just like to point out that the loss in dps from movement of being melee is quite mitigated with the multitude of gap closers available (which do respectable damage), and the ability to switch bars to one with a ranged ability or two to keep dps up while you have to move around.
This doesn't make the problem non-existent, of course, I did say mitigate. But I'm not sure melee should be rewarded with a substantial amount of higher potential numbers to compensate.
Ideally, in the actual raid situation melee and ranged must be able to actually pull equal numbers. If we don't buff melee enough, they'll be too low from the movement penalty. If we buff melee too much, then the movement penalty won't be enough and their dps will be too high, leading everyone to rush immediately to melee builds.
I it's not too clear what my goal is to this post, I guess I just wanted to bring up that ZoS should be careful to keep this in mind concerning balancing melee vs ranged. In theory, melee's numbers should be better. But that shouldn't actually happen in a boss fight, there melee should be brought down to an equal level by the raid mechanics that wouldn't lower the dps of a ranged.0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Thejollygreenone wrote: »Shaun98ca2 wrote: »trimsic_ESO wrote: »The game is designed in a way where in order to be an effective stamina build, you have to alternate between class and weapon abilities - plus misc. skills. Once a player realizes this the sooner he will realize that there isn't such an imbalance that many people claim there is - it is simply the way the game is designed.
One can try to combat it all he want, but in the process one will simply gimp oneself. That really isn't the game's fault, to be honest.
That's not to say that certain weapon skills don't need to be modified because sure they do. And especially the armor passives - they are key to leveling out the playing field some more.
In order to have an effective magicka build, I don't have to alternate between class and weapon abilities. I can equip a full set of light armor, use a destruction staff, and then use my stamina to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break.
Furthermore, even if I alternate between class and weapon abilities, then I still do not have a stamina build that is as effective as a magicka build. Go figure...
What is the rationale here? The game is designed like this, that's what you said? Well, in that case, I really don't like the way it is designed, because such a design creates a huge imbalance between stamina and magicka builds.
At least the game should implement another pool of resources, call it endurance or whatever else, and this spool should be used to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break. And in addition to that, melee combat skills should hit for much more that any other spells at range. It's just a question of common sense.
You state that Melee abilities should hit harder than ranged spells. WHY?
Because you are charging your enemy head on, while with ranged spells you are much safer.
This. It's called risk versus rewards. An incredibly important element to combat balance in MMOs.
Even if it's not just higher raw damage, melee must be rewarded in some way for taking on the extra risk of being in melee range.
Risk is one thing, uptime is another. With a ranged weapon youre always at the right distance to do damage. With a melee weapon you can only do damage when youre within 5-6m of the target. Which means that with a ranged weapon you can keep up almost constant DPS because youre avoiding most of the PBAOE attacks just by standing away from the boss... and youre doing that anyway. Playing melee on the other hand involves a lot of running in and out, dropping your DPS completely to avoid getting killed. And then you have switching between targets which for a ranged fighter means noting more than moving the camera a bit to the left or right and for a melee fighter it means running around and using up resources on gap closers.
While you do have a point, I would just like to point out that the loss in dps from movement of being melee is quite mitigated with the multitude of gap closers available (which do respectable damage), and the ability to switch bars to one with a ranged ability or two to keep dps up while you have to move around.
This doesn't make the problem non-existent, of course, I did say mitigate. But I'm not sure melee should be rewarded with a substantial amount of higher potential numbers to compensate.
Ideally, in the actual raid situation melee and ranged must be able to actually pull equal numbers. If we don't buff melee enough, they'll be too low from the movement penalty. If we buff melee too much, then the movement penalty won't be enough and their dps will be too high, leading everyone to rush immediately to melee builds.
I it's not too clear what my goal is to this post, I guess I just wanted to bring up that ZoS should be careful to keep this in mind concerning balancing melee vs ranged. In theory, melee's numbers should be better. But that shouldn't actually happen in a boss fight, there melee should be brought down to an equal level by the raid mechanics that wouldn't lower the dps of a ranged.
That was my point. This is happening already. Whenever the boss does a PBAOE attack the melee must stop dps and get the hell out. As for weapon swap... atm its way too unresponsive to be used quickly and reliably.P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Thejollygreenone wrote: »khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Thejollygreenone wrote: »Shaun98ca2 wrote: »trimsic_ESO wrote: »The game is designed in a way where in order to be an effective stamina build, you have to alternate between class and weapon abilities - plus misc. skills. Once a player realizes this the sooner he will realize that there isn't such an imbalance that many people claim there is - it is simply the way the game is designed.
One can try to combat it all he want, but in the process one will simply gimp oneself. That really isn't the game's fault, to be honest.
That's not to say that certain weapon skills don't need to be modified because sure they do. And especially the armor passives - they are key to leveling out the playing field some more.
In order to have an effective magicka build, I don't have to alternate between class and weapon abilities. I can equip a full set of light armor, use a destruction staff, and then use my stamina to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break.
Furthermore, even if I alternate between class and weapon abilities, then I still do not have a stamina build that is as effective as a magicka build. Go figure...
What is the rationale here? The game is designed like this, that's what you said? Well, in that case, I really don't like the way it is designed, because such a design creates a huge imbalance between stamina and magicka builds.
At least the game should implement another pool of resources, call it endurance or whatever else, and this spool should be used to run, dodge, block, interrupt, and CC break. And in addition to that, melee combat skills should hit for much more that any other spells at range. It's just a question of common sense.
You state that Melee abilities should hit harder than ranged spells. WHY?
Because you are charging your enemy head on, while with ranged spells you are much safer.
This. It's called risk versus rewards. An incredibly important element to combat balance in MMOs.
Even if it's not just higher raw damage, melee must be rewarded in some way for taking on the extra risk of being in melee range.
Risk is one thing, uptime is another. With a ranged weapon youre always at the right distance to do damage. With a melee weapon you can only do damage when youre within 5-6m of the target. Which means that with a ranged weapon you can keep up almost constant DPS because youre avoiding most of the PBAOE attacks just by standing away from the boss... and youre doing that anyway. Playing melee on the other hand involves a lot of running in and out, dropping your DPS completely to avoid getting killed. And then you have switching between targets which for a ranged fighter means noting more than moving the camera a bit to the left or right and for a melee fighter it means running around and using up resources on gap closers.
While you do have a point, I would just like to point out that the loss in dps from movement of being melee is quite mitigated with the multitude of gap closers available (which do respectable damage), and the ability to switch bars to one with a ranged ability or two to keep dps up while you have to move around.
This doesn't make the problem non-existent, of course, I did say mitigate. But I'm not sure melee should be rewarded with a substantial amount of higher potential numbers to compensate.
Ideally, in the actual raid situation melee and ranged must be able to actually pull equal numbers. If we don't buff melee enough, they'll be too low from the movement penalty. If we buff melee too much, then the movement penalty won't be enough and their dps will be too high, leading everyone to rush immediately to melee builds.
I it's not too clear what my goal is to this post, I guess I just wanted to bring up that ZoS should be careful to keep this in mind concerning balancing melee vs ranged. In theory, melee's numbers should be better. But that shouldn't actually happen in a boss fight, there melee should be brought down to an equal level by the raid mechanics that wouldn't lower the dps of a ranged.
That was my point. This is happening already. Whenever the boss does a PBAOE attack the melee must stop dps and get the hell out. As for weapon swap... atm its way too unresponsive to be used quickly and reliably.
I'd disagree on weapon swapping, ZoS has done a lot to make weapon swapping more viable in combat, and provides less of a dps loss for me than even recasting a buff.
If it's between no dps from being forced out of melee range and a tiny bit of dps lost from the time it takes to swap, I'll pick the latter.0 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭I hear of people getting glitched every night from weapon swapping. That *** is still not working rightBobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!0 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »I hear of people getting glitched every night from weapon swapping. That *** is still not working right
How...so? That's sorta vague wording so I'm not even sure what you mean, especially as I clearly haven't had experienced said glitches.
As I said, I haven't had problems with weapon swapping in combat since they released the changes to the animation speed and the initial bug with a different weapon being shown as what you are actually holding. And that wasn't even really impairing effectiveness.
If people are having trouble, or it's being buggy for some, I'm sorry to hear that but it's not the case for me, so my builds have been utilizing weapon swapping in combat since then.
But then again I only really did provide my personal experience from that post, not trying to make any absolute general knowledge on the subject, just saying how it's been working for me.
So, in other words. That *** is still working right, for me. Idk about anyone else.0 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Tank tries to switch his weapons in a fight, his bars completely lock up and he can't even auto-attack. Sometimes I can only roll dodge and that's it, other times the healer can switch weapons but can't cast spells, same for caster DPS.
It happens way more often than I'd care to admit and it's still an issue for some. You're lucky if you haven't encountered it yet, so good for you, not sure why you feel the need to tell others it doesn't exist just because it works for you.
I do agree with you though that ZoS is at least working on it, already means more than what other companies would've done.Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!0 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Tank tries to switch his weapons in a fight, his bars completely lock up and he can't even auto-attack. Sometimes I can only roll dodge and that's it, other times the healer can switch weapons but can't cast spells, same for caster DPS.
It happens way more often than I'd care to admit and it's still an issue for some. You're lucky if you haven't encountered it yet, so good for you, not sure why you feel the need to tell others it doesn't exist just because it works for you.
I do agree with you though that ZoS is at least working on it, already means more than what other companies would've done.
I never said I claimed absolute knowledge that no problems still existed for anyone other than myself, if I did please quote me and I'll apologize because it's clearly not true nor did I intend for it to come across as such.
Merely pointing out that I myself hadn't had these issues, nor have heard of others having such issues up until this point so far as I recall, and that it surprised me that others are having such difficulties.
If I run into any issues, I'll be sure to bug report it, I'm sure the people who are having these issues are doing the same. Hopefully in time, and with a few forum posts and bug reports, we'll get some more fixes that will get the job done.
And I suppose I am lucky for not having these issues and being able to rely on my weapon swapping, and will continue to do so into the future ^.^Edited by Thejollygreenone on October 30, 2014 2:00AM0
