When the stamina vs magicka imbalance will be fixed ?

Yankee

Why is this thread marked Answered? Where was the thread question answered?

Or does checking it answered mean the answer is "never?"

steinernein

Sidrath wrote: »

...

Well, it might be arrogant for him to state that most people don't know how to play one, plus his testing methodology is just wrong ... but in your specific case, eh, you need to go back and run through the numbers with a bit of honesty. There's really no point in us going further until you do.

Sidrath

Steiner - those numbers (373 per Wrecking Blow, 359 per buffed heavy attack) are entirely honest, based on a 5H/2L Templar with 1243 Stam pool and 145 Weapon damage. I'm not pretending that's a Stam build, but I can extrapolate what it'd be like with 650 more Stam, because the coefficients are linear. You know the animation time of a heavy attack (roughly 2.1s), you know the animation time of a Wrecking Blow (1s cast time + 0.8s animation window). The DPS numbers follow logically from that.

Are you getting vastly different numbers per hit? If so, what numbers?

Incidentally, I do suspect I can eke out more by optimising a Stamina build. That's not the point: the point is that I get trivially more output from Magicka-based alternatives (like, for Templars, PotL->Vampire's Bane->clipping light attack with Jabs'ing) which also buff my Ultimate, and leave my Stamina free for other things.

steinernein

The execution time of light attack -> wrecking blow is 1.8s at near perfect timing, realistically it's going to be 1.9. Heavy attack is a DPS loss under most circumstances... so let's begin:

You aren't factoring in the 5% from using a sword, you aren't factoring in crit rate either, you aren't factoring in armor/armor penetration. Furthermore, you're looking at it in isolation rather than what optimized builds would be and how they stack up against the 'norm'. For instance, you aren't using Flawless Dawn Breaker nor are you looking at various weapon set ups.

There's also the question of itemization since you can't really act like Hunding's Rage and Soulshine doesn't do anything to the equation or when you factor in momentum or weapon swapping etc.

Either way, with Flawless Dawn Breaker and using a great sword, wrecking blow will hit on a marked target (I am a Nightblade) for 612~ and my light attack will hit for 181~ . So, without crits, and with that set up with no specific gear in mind I'll be reaching 441~ DPS at VR3 and with crits you'll be looking at 565~ DPS @ 48% crit rate (without Dawnbreaker, well the damage is much lower). There's always bashing too rather than block cancellation.

We haven't even begun discussing things like Momentum (yes, I realize it gets hit by soft cap pretty hard), Hunding's, or jewelry set ups. Nor have we discussed what you can do about damage intake. We're not talking about execution damage either (25% and under). Or factoring in dots, ults, whatever else have you or group buffs or group dynamic.

Nor we have begun to talk about stamina usage and what other classes are capable of and what the requirements are to keep it up.

Basically, you haven't done your homework and this discussion is utterly one sided which I resent and why I don't care to share anything beyond . Hint: Did you know that putting Executioner on the bar *** up the tool tip for wrecking blow?

The point is that you, like everyone else, look at stamina builds from top down rather than bottom up (negative/positive) and by doing so you utterly miss a lot of details that may or may not make stamina based builds competitive which really changes the nature of the conversation from blind requests for buffs to something a bit more accurate or closer to what an actual debugging/troubleshooting process resembles. Then again your attitude, as you illustrated above, lends itself to deliberate ignorance rather than understanding the underlying system.

I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't understand the Templar which is a conversation for another time.

Either way, I really don't wish to address you anymore as you have jack *** to add to this discussion so let's move on until you put some effort into this conversation.

Sidrath

The aim is to compare Stam and Magicka builds. Don't go off highlighting 'what's missing' unless it's actually a differentiating factor between the builds.

1. I'm not factoring crit rate because casters can get that too. It doesn't give you an edge, in fact you could arguably stack crit more easily as a caster (10% Light Armor + 20% Inner Light) than as a stam-user (21% full medium armor).

2. I'm not factoring in armor/spell penetration because aside from a NB's rather specific armor penetration (Mark Target), the caster wins flat-out (Light Armor passive 42% spell penetration). Incidentally, that NB-specific ability also gives you 75% spell pen, so it doesn't give the stam build an edge over the magicka one, even for NBs.

3. I'll see your 5% from Greatsword (Heavy Weapons, passive applies to 2H skill only) and raise you a 10% from Restoration Staff (Cycle of Life, passive applies to -all- skills so you can use anything from your Class skills arsenal).

4. I'm not factoring sets like Hunding's because there's plenty of solid caster-oriented sets too. Your mention of Soulshine baffles me, as if a set buffing Magicka Recovery and channeled/casted spells will somehow benefit your stamina build more than a caster's. Sure, Soulshine buffs Wrecking Blow but are you really advocating a playstyle centred on channeled attacks in melee range? And if so... why is this more beneficial to you than to the caster using casted spells/channels at range? If anything, the game's itemisation allows easier Magicka management than Stamina management.

5. Yeah, Executioner on the toolbar boosts the tooltip for Wrecking Blow, as if it applied all the time. That's great, but it doesn't actually increase the damage of Wrecking Blow to the new tooltip value. Executioner messes up all 2H tooltips (just another one of those bugs, I guess). Not sure what your point was. Judging from your earlier posts it's pretty clear you thought it did and never even bothered to check, leaving your credibility in tatters.

6. Flawless Dawnbreaker's passive increases the active weapon skill line, thereby also affecting Destruction and Restoration Staff skills. Once again you brought up something that does not, in fact, give a stam build any edge over a Staff-using magicka build.

All the above points are either neutral or straight-up wins for Magicka, and echo statements being made a hundred times over in these forums. I'll stop dissecting your post right there, because while I can deal with ignorance, I find rude, unwarranted elitism utterly pathetic.

Frinkles

Sidrath I haven't read the entire thread, some the responses were simply too long, but I did searched you, and I am quite interested. You posted 900-1000 dps.

Have you done the theorycrafting behind this? the Magicka Class Spells vs Stamina Weapon abilities?

Because I would love if you could point to an error in my methodology. Controlling for all the above take. Take a Nightblade VR10 (I am VR4 atm so this is 2nd hand info)

As far as I know the Spell Damage at VR10 is 89 baseline.
Compare this to a Legendary Bow VR10 153 weapon damage.

Now lets take the three biggest nukes available to this character. Swallow Soul, Concealed Weapon (Surprise Attack), and lets compare it to the bow Venom arrow.

And lets assume he has 2k magicka, and 2k Stamina
http://esohead.com/skills/40823-venom-arrow
http://esohead.com/skills/36244-concealed-weapon
http://esohead.com/skills/35949-swallow-soul

If you input the above information then Venom Arrow deals 500 damage (Initial+dot), Concealed Weapon Dealing 394, and Swallow Soul 333. Meaning with a legendary weapon weapon according to ESOHEAD, weapon skills SHOULD be all things held equal about 50% more DPS than our biggest class nuke/melee.

This holds true for every weapon skill. Take DW rapid strikes if you input the above info, you get a total 675 damage. *** EDIT* Thing to note here being that its about 50% more DPS than the equivalent class melee skill Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attck.

Am I missing something or is there a bug in ESOhead?

trimsic_ESO

steinernein wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Soft cap stamina - dagger VR12 (legendary) + dagger VR11 (epic) - light attack about 125 - heavy attack about 175.

See how ridiculous are these numbers ?

You're doing it wrong; check your numbers again, specifically your log/parser, I am not going to bother doing a number check for you. For extra credit, go check what happens when you throw on various buffs.

You completely misunderstand what I write and apply it to a context I haven't even supplied yet, plus I haven't even made a concrete stance. I am merely saying it is deceptive (like how you completely owned yourself just now) and it may warrant people looking into.

But I'll be blunt, I have no interest in knowledge sharing with you (most of it is floating around anyways) so let's just move on and ignore each other.

These numbers have been checked again and again and again. And I can confirm these numbers. The daggers can swing very quickly, and the left hand can land a strike too. But still the damage is not in par with the damage one can deal with magical spells at a safe distance. And in case of a large combat in Cyrodiil, the AoE damage caused by Impulse is way ahead the damage dealt by AoE abilities of physical weapons.

If I did something wrong, I would not dare posting here that every single stamina build I've tried, and my friends have tried, especially melee DPS builds, are currently not viable and are in need of a huge buff.

The current situation is:

• AoE magical spells >>> AoE physical abilities
• Single DD spells > bow >>> single DD physical abilities
• Magicka effectiveness (damage vs cost) >>> stamina effectiveness
• And stamina is used for running, dodging, blocking, interrupting, CC breaking...

In short, players with a strong magicka build and a full set of light armor currently have their cake and eat it too. I'm happy for them, but as a melee DPS player I also would like to have my cake, you know, sometimes, in this game.

Keoregh

Another problems for Stamina builds for me is softcaps.
VR12 with a gold and vio VR12 dagger, no other buffs or bonuses, I got 189 weapon damage, the softcap in PvE. The softcap go down to 165 in PvP.

So without any buffs, anything on my stuff, I'm already capped.

But when I play magicka build, my spellpower is at 95/165, and I can use 3 jewels glyphs to boost my damage (and it does so much), even in Cyrodiil.

So if the weapon damage was soft caped at 220 in Cyrodiil, we could use glyphs with weapon damage, DK buff and gold weapon to at least buffing our damages thar are too low.

trimsic_ESO

@Keoregh‌
Exactly.

People argue that magicka builds have similar issues than with stamina builds, because the damage dealt with the destruction staff is based on the stamina pool. This is correct, in theory. In practice, it's so easy to reach the weapon damage soft cap in Cyrodiil, that this can longer be used as a reasonable argument.

And the problem is the same with the armor soft cap, once again to the detriment of physical weapons.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

I will not analyse numbers here . I tested all that in the game. Fact is that magic driven builds always beat stamina driven builds. I really cant see reason why to discuss numbers from eso head when u have live game in front of you. Difference is huge . That huge that i really don't see why this thread went in direction of proving that magica is more appreciated by design than stamina. I dont see reason why to discuss even why is that the case. The question is when that will be repaired . Anyone who wants to prove that stamina build is better than magica build please be my guest and face my dk magica oriented build in pve ofc. Or i can offer for testing purpose my NB stamina build ( who cant run out of stamina by the way ) just to prove point that Stamina and magic builds are not comparable at all . In short words magic DK always outperforms stamina based NB by at least 2 times. Even when i respec my NB to magic build - it does 50% higher dps then when i play stamina NB - my problem there is that i dont want to play NB caster. So back to the main question - when ZOS will bring in some balance between stamina / magic driven builds. I will raise even better question to ZOS - do u guys know - there is a problem in mag/stam that department. Fact is that i never heard ZOS talks about that issue . Maybe just maybe they think its all good . ZOS please would u like to provide me answer so i can stop wasting my time.

Sidrath

Hi Frinkles!

Afraid I can't make 100% certainty comments on the abilities you've listed, and I definitely suspect some of the Esohead values are incorrect but a majority of those I came across matched in-game tooltips. That being said:

1. DoTs typically do more: Venom Arrow does indeed come out to higher than some direct damage attacks, and that's normal given it's a DoT. Those tend to get higher aggregate contributions from stats to compensate for their over-time nature. I would rather compare a Stam DoT to 3 Magicka DoTs (they occupy the same role on the toolbars of the respective builds), and then taking your same control conditions:

Venom Arrow: 523 Damage over 10s
Vampire's Bane (Templar): 653 Damage over 6.5s, will be 737 over 8.2s when they get around to fixing the Enduring Rays passive to scale both DoT duration and damage (as opposed to just duration).
Unstable Flame (Dragonknight): 1250 Damage over 10.5s
Scalding Rune (Mage's Guild): 532 Damage over 10s, AOE!

The Magicka DoTs tend to perform better, making them the high value actions that power some of the stronger sustained DPS builds.

2. Animation Windows matter: Attacks like Rapid Strikes show decent numbers on paper, but don't account for the game's animation windows. The ability lists a channel time of 1.25s but in practice locks you out from your next action for a bit longer than that. Animation windows matter as a lot of builds benefit from clipping light attack swings with an instant ability to maximise output. You can't do that properly with the channeled attacks.

Hope this helped a little.

glitchmaster999

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Yes at range your "safe". Really your not your "safe" as long as you have Magicka which is a limited resource.

Stamina is ALSO a limited resource but your in Melee range which allows you further opportunities to Block and Stun which STOPS your opponents damage all together for a few seconds giving you free time to deal free damage.

Stamina increases your Light/Heavy Attacks which is FREE to be used at ANY time with increased damage above that of a Magicka users.

So your in Melee range with increased survivability and decent DPS.

Magicka your at range with Great DPS but much lower survivability all based on your Magicka which can run dry FAST leaving nothing but death.


Personally I would like to see a VR12 player FULL Stamina to show what kind of damage Light/Heavy Attacks produce for the various weapons to compare to a FULL Magicka users various attacks.

My full stamina vr12 nightblade hits for 400 with arrows.... my strife hits for that much as a full stamina build. Light/heavy attacks are stupidly bad for dps, they only act as a gap filler, I get 520 dps with a dot bow build while with a resto staff I have seen 800+ single target, plus it is safer (heals, range the whole shebang). There is literally no viable reason to go full stamina right now and it really sucks, you run around with a set of full light armor, spend your (otherwise not used) stamina on immovable and laugh at your peers while you spam a spell that when rapidly cast gives more dps than any weapon ability/light attack combo while having the added benefit of being ranged and knocking down opponents. Why would you not go magicka?

Let me tell you and this is very important:
I DON'T WANT TO
Play how you want, not play how the devs like to play, or play what is currently the best, If I want to be a nightstick that uses a resto staff, fine. If I want to be a nightblade with dual weild/bow, I should be able to without being kicked from trial pugs. I am at the higher end of stamina dps and it is still based 60% of magicka attacks (crippling grasp/degeneration/strife) with light attacks to cancel.

glitchmaster999

Frinkles wrote: »

Sidrath I haven't read the entire thread, some the responses were simply too long, but I did searched you, and I am quite interested. You posted 900-1000 dps.

Have you done the theorycrafting behind this? the Magicka Class Spells vs Stamina Weapon abilities?

Because I would love if you could point to an error in my methodology. Controlling for all the above take. Take a Nightblade VR10 (I am VR4 atm so this is 2nd hand info)

As far as I know the Spell Damage at VR10 is 89 baseline.
Compare this to a Legendary Bow VR10 153 weapon damage.

Now lets take the three biggest nukes available to this character. Swallow Soul, Concealed Weapon (Surprise Attack), and lets compare it to the bow Venom arrow.

And lets assume he has 2k magicka, and 2k Stamina
http://esohead.com/skills/40823-venom-arrow
http://esohead.com/skills/36244-concealed-weapon
http://esohead.com/skills/35949-swallow-soul

If you input the above information then Venom Arrow deals 500 damage (Initial+dot), Concealed Weapon Dealing 394, and Swallow Soul 333. Meaning with a legendary weapon weapon according to ESOHEAD, weapon skills SHOULD be all things held equal about 50% more DPS than our biggest class nuke/melee.

This holds true for every weapon skill. Take DW rapid strikes if you input the above info, you get a total 675 damage. *** EDIT* Thing to note here being that its about 50% more DPS than the equivalent class melee skill Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attck.

Am I missing something or is there a bug in ESOhead?

venom arrow takes 10 seconds, strife is instant and so is concealed meaning that spamming poison arrow gives you 250 (there abouts) dph while strife and concealed weapon gives you over 300...

Rapid strikes also has a cast time making it yet again less dps.

trimsic_ESO

Another question for Zenimax:
Why a deep magicka build can soft cap the weapon damage quite easily, thus doing a lot of damage with the destruction staff (for instance with Pulsar), while at the same time a deep stamina build cannot soft cap the spell damage ?

Another asymmetric point of design, to the detriment of physical weapons.

Frinkles

Sidrath wrote: »

Hi Frinkles!

Afraid I can't make 100% certainty comments on the abilities you've listed, and I definitely suspect some of the Esohead values are incorrect but a majority of those I came across matched in-game tooltips. That being said:

1. DoTs typically do more: Venom Arrow does indeed come out to higher than some direct damage attacks, and that's normal given it's a DoT. Those tend to get higher aggregate contributions from stats to compensate for their over-time nature. I would rather compare a Stam DoT to 3 Magicka DoTs (they occupy the same role on the toolbars of the respective builds), and then taking your same control conditions:

Venom Arrow: 523 Damage over 10s
Vampire's Bane (Templar): 653 Damage over 6.5s, will be 737 over 8.2s when they get around to fixing the Enduring Rays passive to scale both DoT duration and damage (as opposed to just duration).
Unstable Flame (Dragonknight): 1250 Damage over 10.5s
Scalding Rune (Mage's Guild): 532 Damage over 10s, AOE!

The Magicka DoTs tend to perform better, making them the high value actions that power some of the stronger sustained DPS builds.

2. Animation Windows matter: Attacks like Rapid Strikes show decent numbers on paper, but don't account for the game's animation windows. The ability lists a channel time of 1.25s but in practice locks you out from your next action for a bit longer than that. Animation windows matter as a lot of builds benefit from clipping light attack swings with an instant ability to maximise output. You can't do that properly with the channeled attacks.

Hope this helped a little.

Yea! I think the equations should be a tiny bit skewed however it IS a 50% difference, the problem with those concerns is the 50% difference in damage output is across the board!

Take Wrecking Blow, input the stats I put before and suddenly you got a melee strike that does arguably the same/better than concealed weapon and deals 500 damage as opposed to the 400 of Concealed weapon.

http://esohead.com/skills/40008-wrecking-blow

And yea.. there isn't a pure nuke in range weapon skills >.> wow...

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

I really can't understand how is possible that Zenimax haven't said nothing about this. I am tired to play as mage.... Very tired...... I hate play as mage.

Lyall84

steinernein wrote: »

The execution time of light attack -> wrecking blow is 1.8s at near perfect timing, realistically it's going to be 1.9. Heavy attack is a DPS loss under most circumstances... so let's begin:

You aren't factoring in the 5% from using a sword, you aren't factoring in crit rate either, you aren't factoring in armor/armor penetration. Furthermore, you're looking at it in isolation rather than what optimized builds would be and how they stack up against the 'norm'. For instance, you aren't using Flawless Dawn Breaker nor are you looking at various weapon set ups.

There's also the question of itemization since you can't really act like Hunding's Rage and Soulshine doesn't do anything to the equation or when you factor in momentum or weapon swapping etc.

Either way, with Flawless Dawn Breaker and using a great sword, wrecking blow will hit on a marked target (I am a Nightblade) for 612~ and my light attack will hit for 181~ . So, without crits, and with that set up with no specific gear in mind I'll be reaching 441~ DPS at VR3 and with crits you'll be looking at 565~ DPS @ 48% crit rate (without Dawnbreaker, well the damage is much lower). There's always bashing too rather than block cancellation.

We haven't even begun discussing things like Momentum (yes, I realize it gets hit by soft cap pretty hard), Hunding's, or jewelry set ups. Nor have we discussed what you can do about damage intake. We're not talking about execution damage either (25% and under). Or factoring in dots, ults, whatever else have you or group buffs or group dynamic.

Nor we have begun to talk about stamina usage and what other classes are capable of and what the requirements are to keep it up.

Basically, you haven't done your homework and this discussion is utterly one sided which I resent and why I don't care to share anything beyond . Hint: Did you know that putting Executioner on the bar *** up the tool tip for wrecking blow?

The point is that you, like everyone else, look at stamina builds from top down rather than bottom up (negative/positive) and by doing so you utterly miss a lot of details that may or may not make stamina based builds competitive which really changes the nature of the conversation from blind requests for buffs to something a bit more accurate or closer to what an actual debugging/troubleshooting process resembles. Then again your attitude, as you illustrated above, lends itself to deliberate ignorance rather than understanding the underlying system.

I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't understand the Templar which is a conversation for another time.

Either way, I really don't wish to address you anymore as you have jack *** to add to this discussion so let's move on until you put some effort into this conversation.

Hunding's Rage does not buff any weapon abilities. It should, it even says it does, but it does not. The 5 set is currently broken at the moment.

I would hope ZOS is aware of the issue already but if not, here is an explanation. I crafted new sets to make sure my numbers are exact and the controls are not messed with.

Bottom line: the 5 set reads (at VR 9 white quality) "Increases weapon damage by 18% when using weapon abilities". This reads to me that it increases the weapon abilities damage by 18% of the weapon's portion of the damage.

Base Damage:

Completely ungeared (ie naked) my Executioner IV (two handed morph) deals 81 damage.

Gear: All gear listed is white, with no enchantments or traits, unless otherwise listed.

Level 13 vendor bought great sword (Green) = 40 damage.

VR9 crafted great sword = 134 damage.

VR9 crafted medium hunding's rage set (5 pieces) = 18% increase.

Test:
Naked with green level 13 sword, Executioner does 106 damage. So far it can be noted that a about 62% of the weapon's damage is added to the skill's damage.

Naked with white VR9 sword, Executioner does 166 damage. It appears that this weapon added about 63% of the weapon's damage to the skill's damage. Pretty consistent.

5 Piece Hunding's Rage set equipped with green level 13 sword. Executioner tool tip still displays 106 damage. It appears that the set has 0 effect. Set is broken and useless. Should be around 110 damage if you count the set as only increasing the weapons portion of the effect. Would be around 125 if the set counted to the ability as a whole.

5 Piece Hunding's Rage set equipped with white VR9 sword. Executioner tool tip still displays 166 damage. It appears that the set has 0 effect. Set is broken and useless. Should be around 180 damage if you count the set as only increasing the weapons portion of the effect. Would be around 195 if the set counted to the ability as a whole.

Conclusion: a crafted 6 trait requirement, 5 set bonus, that can do nothing but help any type of weapon skill or stamina build, is 100% useless.

steinernein

Lyall84 wrote: »

Conclusion: a crafted 6 trait requirement, 5 set bonus, that can do nothing but help any type of weapon skill or stamina build, is 100% useless.

No.

golem75eb17_ESO

You checked the tooltip, but not the dmg itself?
There were/are mre than one tooltip errors. It does not prove anything regarding real dmg.

NorthernFury

Sidrath is 100% correct in his assessments.

I run a VR12 DK full stam build with legendary 2H, Hunding's 5 pc set, 5H/2M armor. I have run almost all the vet dungeons and have experimented in trials. We are SEVERELY underpowered compared to casters, have a much lower survivability due to having to stand in melee range and forego dodges due to stam being eaten up by weapon abilities, yadda yadda. I can tell you that running a melee dps DK is not viable right now unless someone is willing to carry you.

ZoM_Head

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Yes at range your "safe". Really your not your "safe" as long as you have Magicka which is a limited resource.

Stamina is ALSO a limited resource but your in Melee range which allows you further opportunities to Block and Stun which STOPS your opponents damage all together for a few seconds giving you free time to deal free damage.

Stamina increases your Light/Heavy Attacks which is FREE to be used at ANY time with increased damage above that of a Magicka users.

So your in Melee range with increased survivability and decent DPS.

Magicka your at range with Great DPS but much lower survivability all based on your Magicka which can run dry FAST leaving nothing but death.


Personally I would like to see a VR12 player FULL Stamina to show what kind of damage Light/Heavy Attacks produce for the various weapons to compare to a FULL Magicka users various attacks.

Heavy attacks with the restoration staff restores magicka. So not casting any spells, you can quickly restore a lot of magicka and use class skills to spam.

Yet to see a weapon that when doing a heavy attack you regain stamina, before even spending points on the skill/morph.

Also wrecking blow is a single target long animated attack, there is no proper or decent aoe weapon based skills.

IceDread

If all skills were based on magica and magica crit+ stamina crit were simply made into crit chance the balance would be so much better.

As it is now, it's just screwed.

CapuchinSeven

Sidrath wrote: »

Animation windows matter as a lot of builds benefit from clipping light attack swings with an instant ability to maximise output.

Just screams, broken game, to me.

Still_Mind

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Sidrath wrote: »

Animation windows matter as a lot of builds benefit from clipping light attack swings with an instant ability to maximise output.

Just screams, broken game, to me.

Screams "awesome" to me, instead.

temjiu

Sidrath wrote: »

Again, I respect people's enthusiasm for Stamina builds. But to say "most people that have tried Stamina builds simply didn't know how to play one" is arrogant in the extreme, especially when your basis for saying so is killing Thunderbugs at Lv39.

Exactly. Everyone that I know of pre 50 that uses stamina builds enjoys them. I did. repeate: I LOVED MY STAMINA BUILD UP THROUGH 50.

VR content is very different. and to assume that people who are concerned about stamina builds being sub-par are simply not capable of playing the "spec" is woefully ignorant.

Tell that to the groups doing trials at the moment. I'd love for anyone to point out how many of those top groups have melee base builds that are mostly stamina in them.

They don't. we can crunch numbers all day long in the leveling process, it wont do us any good. anyone who believes stamina builds are OK need to do a few things first

1) get to VR level...any will do
2) level a stamina based build there. then,
3) take a similar character, but equip them with a staff and light armor, and do the same. (obviously built for staff).

You would have to be hiding your head in the sand at that point to ignore the huge variance. FYI...it's not in favor of the stamina build.

I did see one post where they player did play a stamina build (a real one too...I think there was one class skill on the bar, thats it. perhaps two). no staffs in sight.

the man was pretty good. he survived the VR levels, and was putting out impressive numbers...

...for a stamina build.

the sad part is....i was putting out numbers like him on my DK in a staff and light armor by pretty much facerolling the keyboard (ok...i did have to push 3 buttons in a sequence in order to get the class to work). if he had put that much work into a staff build he'd probably be top on the charts. were talking micromanaging resources...timing animation cancellations precisely (he even admitted that if the lag was worse on his connections he couldn't have pulled it off), min/maxing stats (he was wearing FULL LEGENDARY GEAR)...

And he wasn't even hitting the low Numbers of someone in a staff build who wasn't playing like a monkey. in average gear. it's the horrible disparity were dealing with here...it has nothing to do with l2p. the TOP players in the game don't go near a stamina build. they are not even PRESENT in the top groups in trials. THIS is the issue...it has nothing to do with skill curves.

steinernein

temjiu wrote: »

the sad part is....i was putting out numbers like him on my DK in a staff and light armor by pretty much facerolling the keyboard (ok...i did have to push 3 buttons in a sequence in order to get the class to work). if he had put that much work into a staff build he'd probably be top on the charts. were talking micromanaging resources...timing animation cancellations precisely (he even admitted that if the lag was worse on his connections he couldn't have pulled it off), min/maxing stats (he was wearing FULL LEGENDARY GEAR)...

And he wasn't even hitting the low Numbers of someone in a staff build who wasn't playing like a monkey. in average gear. it's the horrible disparity were dealing with here...it has nothing to do with l2p. the TOP players in the game don't go near a stamina build. they are not even PRESENT in the top groups in trials. THIS is the issue...it has nothing to do with skill curves.

It's actually a L2P issue and a lack of min-maxing.

altrego9920_ESO

It's actually a L2P issue and a lack of min-maxing.[/quote]

so your saying that even with PILES of data to prove that stamina as a usable skill line just doesn't cut it, the fact that NO SINGLE COMPETITIVE trial guild uses stamina lines, as well as THOUSANDS of players reporting that its not up to par... its just a L2P issue?

steinernein

altrego9920_ESO wrote: »

so your saying that even with PILES of data to prove that stamina as a usable skill line just doesn't cut it, the fact that NO SINGLE COMPETITIVE trial guild uses stamina lines, as well as THOUSANDS of players reporting that its not up to par... its just a L2P issue?

No I am saying that the templar in question needed to L2P and run the numbers a bit more in order to squeeze out higher damage.

There aren't piles of data either as no one bothers with it; it's always second hand or people just quitting before actually pushing out a proper stamina build (like the templar in question).

And as for competitive guilds they always rush for the lowest hanging fruit and that's more of a class balance issue rather than a weapon balance one. Kind of obvious.

I am also saying that stamina builds can cut it outside of outliers/some extremely unfriendly fights but most people just don't bother because it's a hassle.

How many of you even know what optimal conditions mean and how to achieve it in regards to a stamina build? How many do you even know the itemization and requirements of one? Maybe one or two out of every thousand. And those that do know it don't necessarily have the resources to obtain it. Hence, it's a hassle and for most it isn't worth it.

temjiu

steinernein wrote: »

altrego9920_ESO wrote: »

so your saying that even with PILES of data to prove that stamina as a usable skill line just doesn't cut it, the fact that NO SINGLE COMPETITIVE trial guild uses stamina lines, as well as THOUSANDS of players reporting that its not up to par... its just a L2P issue?

No I am saying that the templar in question needed to L2P and run the numbers a bit more in order to squeeze out higher damage.

There aren't piles of data either as no one bothers with it; it's always second hand or people just quitting before actually pushing out a proper stamina build (like the templar in question).

And as for competitive guilds they always rush for the lowest hanging fruit and that's more of a class balance issue rather than a weapon balance one. Kind of obvious.

I am also saying that stamina builds can cut it outside of outliers/some extremely unfriendly fights but most people just don't bother because it's a hassle.

How many of you even know what optimal conditions mean and how to achieve it in regards to a stamina build? How many do you even know the itemization and requirements of one? Maybe one or two out of every thousand. And those that do know it don't necessarily have the resources to obtain it. Hence, it's a hassle and for most it isn't worth it.

EDIT: I read your post a few times and decided to change my original response (which was a bit curt).

Actually, your wrong. There is plenty of data. I would love to see your data that shows this to be incorrect, and how you have put out better numbers. Id like to see you're data compared to someone like, say, DarkAedin's work on his 2H Templar. Here's a link to his thread on it:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111445/templar-mdps-2h-dw-800-dps-raw-dmg-battery-support-back-over-600-737-on-atro-boss/p1

I can sort of see what your trying to point out...but telling someone who is putting as much effort into the concept as dark has...and saying that he needs to L2P...dude, you better have data to back that up. more then him.

Because a templar in a dress and a staff can do what he did, 5x easier. it's been proven, its being shown, and its happening in end game play right now. if you go to the websites of TOP GUILDS who actually enjoy doing this kind of stuff (min maxing), you will see threads on their guild members who dropped melee builds and went staff. And No....elitists don't go for the low hanging fruit. they tend to go for RESULTS. and if they can get a melee player how puts out results, they tend to take him.

Yeah, I know you were referring to someone else. but were not talking about individual skill here...were talking about multiple skill lines that have proven inferior to magick based builds...those who are not optimizing their class are irrelevant at this point.

If you go to websites where people actually THEORYCRAFT this, you will see it there too...a melee stamina build optimized is not even close to the output of a staff magicka build.

I know that people always have opportunities to improve their skill level. I know that people get better with skill setups and gameplay the more time a game is out. but when you have to rely on legendary gear, lag free optimized clipping of skills, and perfect timing (that even dark has a hard time with due to the new changes), and your putting out less then the average of the magick builds...

...Cmon man, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but with a comment like that we really need to see what you have to compare. show us the data plz.

EDIT EDIT: And I honestly would love to see the data. if you know player setups with stamina builds that can perform on level with magick builds in the hands of equally skill players, im all ears. but everything I see still puts stamina at about 20-30% lower then equivalent magick builds. it's the disparity were concerned about.

steinernein

You do realize that I am also in that thread right and I more or less say the exact same thing -- almost twice even.

And having been in an actual top guild I can tell you it's the low hanging fruit that wins because it gets things done a lot quicker - it works here, it works in real life.

Hence, as I keep saying, there isn't much data for it. You can reach 800-900 dps under certain conditions in a sustained fight but the requirements are insane in the previous patch, the math supporting it (go and run the numbers by yourself), and because it takes an exponential amount of effort it really isn't worth most people to investigate it let alone run it when there are/may be certain fights where melee will simply not even be able to fulfill the minimum requirements.

So yeah, it really boils down to L2P and run the numbers when you're coming up short of the project values on a static fight. But more importantly, what you and the others fail to understand is that without having actual decent data you have zero idea as to how to fix it.

I see *** suggestions ranging from LOLOLSUPERCHARGE ATTACK3k to complete reworks when relatively minor adjustments are all that is needed to push melee builds into a fully competitive state rather than partially. Furthermore, this patch has actually changed quite a bit as with VR3 you can reach 670 dps sustained with little to no effort, zero gimmicks, and zero team support.