Champion System - No Retroactive XP Reward

Guppet · October 2014

xaraan wrote: »

I've taken all this as, when vet points change to xp next update, you won't get xp for the old stuff you've done. They said previously they would be tracking xp for when entire champ system roles out, but I personally didn't feel they were currently tracking it (since vets don't get xp) and would do so once vet players actually began to earn xp.

Unfortunately, I fear you are correct. They don't even start tracking till the vp to xp conversion happens. Ooh there's going to be a poo storm when others start thinking this.

Been VR 14 for months, don't worry your not at the cap, because you haven't started earning additional xp yet, lol.

lordspyder · October 2014

KenjiJU wrote: »

lordspyder wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

What I take from the OP is that the champion system will remove many XP bonuses in the game, and if you haven't earn them before the conversion to the champion system, you can no longer earn them.

Any XP you currently earned will be converted to the champion system.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

It would really *** off a large number of players if they lost XP already earned. I will cancel my subscription if this is the case.

not even close. What the issue is that the Champ system will introduce XP bonuses to Vet Characters for things like exploration and opening chests. These things do not give XP to Vet characters ATM. After the Change, they will, but they're not going to back credit those of us that have done those things after the change, So If I', vet 1 now, and have all of Auridon explored, I effectively loose all that exploration XP I would of gotten if I had just waited.

And you'll level up much faster with the lower XP requirement to reach the next Vet ranks. So while you did a bunch of minor stuff in the past, the major and minor stuff you will be doing anyway will get you to point B faster than it would have before. This should be a positive in the interim. And it's only interim as this will not matter some months down the road when we'll all be on Champion Points.

Everyone's going to have to take a little of the bad with the good, for the sake of an overall better change for everyone. Trying to be perfectly fair in every single aspect is going to cost them time and it's not really necessary unless it's a rather large screw-up. I don't think this is a large screw up at all. It's a minor inconvenience, if that, because again, you'll level faster from here on out regardless.

If the XP from those minor events amounted to something significant, if it's even possible, having players largely unknowingly jump up in levels is going to have a negative effect as well.

In short, molehill.

I never said I agreed with the whining on this post (I don't) I was just trying to explain the issue to someone who didn't understand what the issue was.

Personally I agree this is a molehill. I am doing the Vet content right now, and while I look forward to the change to make leveling faster, it's not going to stop me from playing now.

I feel to make an issue out of this is just looking to stir up the pot.

Gillysan · October 2014

Does anyone really even know the details of the full roll out is going to be? In construction this is called fast tracking, where the project starts before all the engineering and design work is fully done. I'm sure they have a lot of the framework, even some details, but not all the details worked out.

Guppet · October 2014

If we had got the xp, it would have been a nice way to award people for questing, rather than grinding, but it's not exactly a deal breaker. Doesn't fill me with confidence that they have been tracking xp though.

BCBasher · October 2014

Guppet wrote: »

If we had got the xp, it would have been a nice way to award people for questing, rather than grinding, but it's not exactly a deal breaker. Doesn't fill me with confidence that they have been tracking xp though.

I'm not sure if it's what you meant but I just got a level up last night in an ability cracking a chest in between looting and getting back to my grind spot last night. I'm a good 40+ hours of grinding alone past vr14 and I'm still seeing xp based things trigger. My Skills leveled all the way through vr which are xp based so I'd say it has and is being tracked?

AlexDougherty · October 2014

The problem is that the game doesn't track when we did what, so it's literally impossible for them to figure out what retroactive XP we should get.

It's a shame, but that's life.

Gillysan · October 2014

BCBasher wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

If we had got the xp, it would have been a nice way to award people for questing, rather than grinding, but it's not exactly a deal breaker. Doesn't fill me with confidence that they have been tracking xp though.

I'm not sure if it's what you meant but I just got a level up last night in an ability cracking a chest in between looting and getting back to my grind spot last night. I'm a good 40+ hours of grinding alone past vr14 and I'm still seeing xp based things trigger. My Skills leveled all the way through vr which are xp based so I'd say it has and is being tracked?

Exactly. Skills in VR's can still go up and you are not not going to lose those individual skill ranks. When you hit VR you are actually a L50 character for attributes and skills. The only thing that is unlocked with vet ranks are gear. Example
v1-3 gear
v4-6 gear
v7-9 gear, etc (my list might be a little off)

However, your character is effectively capped at L50. There are just more lands and skyshards to uncover and more places to level your skills to the L50 cap.

That is post 50 character progression in a nutshell as it stands now. The complaint here seems to be that you can't bank away xp for the Champion system, so when it's released you are 15 points or whatever into unlocking that Champion tree. If you have run out of things to do in the game, that is it really, you have consumed what they had to offer. Now begins the waiting game to see what new pve content they release and how pvp evolves.

BCBasher · October 2014

Gillysan wrote: »

BCBasher wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

If we had got the xp, it would have been a nice way to award people for questing, rather than grinding, but it's not exactly a deal breaker. Doesn't fill me with confidence that they have been tracking xp though.

I'm not sure if it's what you meant but I just got a level up last night in an ability cracking a chest in between looting and getting back to my grind spot last night. I'm a good 40+ hours of grinding alone past vr14 and I'm still seeing xp based things trigger. My Skills leveled all the way through vr which are xp based so I'd say it has and is being tracked?

Exactly. Skills in VR's can still go up and you are not not going to lose those individual skill ranks. When you hit VR you are actually a L50 character for attributes and skills. The only thing that is unlocked with vet ranks are gear. Example
v1-3 gear
v4-6 gear
v7-9 gear, etc (my list might be a little off)

However, your character is effectively capped at L50. There are just more lands and skyshards to uncover and more places to level your skills to the L50 cap.

That is post 50 character progression in a nutshell as it stands now. The complaint here seems to be that you can't bank away xp for the Champion system, so when it's released you are 15 points or whatever into unlocking that Champion tree. If you have run out of things to do in the game, that is it really, you have consumed what they had to offer. Now begins the waiting game to see what new pve content they release and how pvp evolves.

Everything I've read or heard says you can bank a ton of xp past vr14 though? I guess only time will tell.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I'll tell this as someone who is here since beta and was capped VR12 many, many months ago (I levelled with "original hard mode" VR, that's the time)

You mean during the 'abuse the hell out of the Crystals' phase in Craglorn part 1 I take it.

That was hard?

LOL?

No he means before Craglorn was even announced as being a thing. Back when VR zones were hell for risk vs reward. Not enough carrot, way too much stick.

Before the first tweaks to Vet content were made.

Farming Anomalies didn't come until after the tweaks were made. And there were still people that were already V10.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

It would be simple to track, consider the Alliance the toon started in then go and give credit for all the discovery achievements tied to that character for each respective zone after their last home alliance zone.

As it stands the Achievement system has 2 purposes: titles and dyes. What are the Achievement points for if not as a quasi-tracking system?

It's not rocket surgery.

Gillysan · October 2014

BCBasher wrote: »

Gillysan wrote: »

BCBasher wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

If we had got the xp, it would have been a nice way to award people for questing, rather than grinding, but it's not exactly a deal breaker. Doesn't fill me with confidence that they have been tracking xp though.

I'm not sure if it's what you meant but I just got a level up last night in an ability cracking a chest in between looting and getting back to my grind spot last night. I'm a good 40+ hours of grinding alone past vr14 and I'm still seeing xp based things trigger. My Skills leveled all the way through vr which are xp based so I'd say it has and is being tracked?

Exactly. Skills in VR's can still go up and you are not not going to lose those individual skill ranks. When you hit VR you are actually a L50 character for attributes and skills. The only thing that is unlocked with vet ranks are gear. Example
v1-3 gear
v4-6 gear
v7-9 gear, etc (my list might be a little off)

However, your character is effectively capped at L50. There are just more lands and skyshards to uncover and more places to level your skills to the L50 cap.

That is post 50 character progression in a nutshell as it stands now. The complaint here seems to be that you can't bank away xp for the Champion system, so when it's released you are 15 points or whatever into unlocking that Champion tree. If you have run out of things to do in the game, that is it really, you have consumed what they had to offer. Now begins the waiting game to see what new pve content they release and how pvp evolves.

Everything I've read or heard says you can bank a ton of xp past vr14 though? I guess only time will tell.

Reiterating what I said....You got xp towards the skills on your active hotbar. If all your skills are morphed+rank 4 that xp went into this supposed banked pool. Otherwise the xp did nothing. Absolutely nothing. Poof! Gone.

Post 50 all I'm doing is leveling up some more skills so I can swap and experiment with different builds for fun. Dinging a new veteran level does not give me a new attribute point or another skill point. All you get for leveling through VR is unlocking the next rank of gear.

What is the purpose of the banked pool of xp or is it vp pool? So that when the Champion system goes live you already have a few points. Why ZOS even dangled this in front of players makes no sense to me. The moment a new game system goes live they have given away progression through it. This just means they are back to square one with the players who power through anything they put out in a couple of days.

Side note regarding skills: hotbar 1 is offensive & hotbar 2 is defensive/heals. Skills on hot bar 1 level faster, so I make it a point that when I complete a quest that my hotbar 2 is active. This is easy to test if you use an addon that shows % or value in the K skill window and note how much you have before & after turning in a quest to an NPC.

Frenkthevile · October 2014

I agree with Paul Sage.

lordspyder · October 2014

Frenkthevile wrote: »

I agree with Paul Sage.

In Sage we trust

Nazon_Katts · October 2014

lordspyder wrote: »

Frenkthevile wrote: »

I agree with Paul Sage.

In Sage we trust

Thanks for the bump.

Gooey · October 2014

Free Big Spear

reften · October 2014

Vahrokh wrote: »

I'll tell this as someone who is here since beta and was capped VR12 many, many months ago (I levelled with "original hard mode" VR, that's the time):

who cares.

Do you fear... what? To have missed the train? That somebody is going to do better than you? If so, it's not like an imposed lead will save you in the long run.

Just enjoy the game.

I want to PvP and be competitive. If you reward the hardcore gamers who play 24/7 too much you make the casual gamer leave the game. That's why I care.

reften · October 2014

Guppet wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I'm not happy about this.

They basically said.

"Hey, I know you went out of your way to go ahead and complete zones in their entirety, including stuff you didn't get VP for but now that we're changing our ways and you actually WOULD be rewarded for doing so, you already did it so you're SoL. Thanks for playing!"

They may as well have said, grind Craglorn from VR1-14, then do the actual VR leveling content, since that's the only way to get full recognition.

Seems any xp tracking, is only from max level onwards.

Completing Cadwells gold was already highly disappointing from a rewards perspective, this adds a couple of slaps to the quest completion, well thank you Zeni.

Agree . What a mess.

zbtiqua · October 2014

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@ZOS_PaulSage stated in the recent ESO Live, there won't be any XP rewards retroactively given for playing content (exploration, treasure chests, etc) when they make the conversion from VP to XP.

I am confused- does this also include xp gained from killing monsters at max level? Or, is that type of XP still going to contribute to champion points? (That is what was previously stated)

G0ku · October 2014

Don´t know if I really understood this - from what I read I assume the way to get the most out of this would be:

Take your VR1 toon to Hircine and grind yourself to VR14 and wait for champion system, then start to do the VR quests and all the exploring to get the XP for these which is lost for your main character, because all things you´ve done before champion system arrives doesn´t get recognized?

Can someone tell me if i got this right?

If it turns out this way this seems the most terrible solution...

Gillysan · October 2014

Here is some further reading material before the speculation gets too out of hand. I don't know how far along they are on the details of the new progression tree.

ESO Guild Summit Follow-up from the Developer Discussions section of these forums

ESO Guild Summit Coverage skip down where they are talking about the Champion System

I don't see any mention or details of this banking of xp. Granted I don't like watching videos of blah blah blah, if there is mention of it there, I'm old school and want my news in printed format. This is the only part I found that might need some more details

Earned veteran ranks will convert into champion XP, but there will be a maximum on the amount that will be allowed to convert

Seems like reward enough to me for people who have reached v14. This idea of banking xp beyond v14, if true, is an illogical choice on the part of ZOS. Might as well have a "double xp weekend", which is marketing stuff I really don't like.

Note: you don't lose everything as the person stated above. Your skills have leveled (aka ranked) up as I have pointed out in two posts above. It seems to me, unless I'm completely wrong, that there is a misunderstanding of what kind of progression occurs in verteran ranks. It's more of a progression of gear (armor, weapons, food, enchantments) than of your character (skills going beyond morphed+ranked to 4, attributes aka Magicka/Health/Stamina).

Nazon_Katts · October 2014

VR already offered an increase in soft caps, a flat +10 to all stats, increased spell resist, armor pen and the boon of having maxed stats against targets 5VR lower than you. It always has been a vertical progression and even though you could argue it's just a 10% percent gain, it is overall and to nearly everything and even it were to just one stat, it would be very well worth it.

But that's not the point. The point is that played and successfully cleared content doesn't give it's rewards. Content that is seldom played due to having too poor rewards already. But that took considerably longer to complete than most other way more rewarding activities.

This could have been a chance to finally incentivize playing neglected content, give a small nod of acknowledgement to the folks who did it anyways, but instead they're making sure it's been time wasted.

Gillysan · October 2014

Played and successfully cleared content raised my skills. On my sorcerer I have all class passives maxed and only a few skills not morphed and fully ranked up in both morph options. I'm only v7, the only thing lagging behind is my Alliance skills although Support ones are coming along nicely. I have all skyshards except for Cadwell's Gold areas and Craglorn. Six maxed crafts. You mean this is all going to be taken away? (rhetorical question)

Maybe there is something I'm not figuring in because I don't do trials. Trials isn't something I'm interested in anyways. My only interest in Craglorn is crafting.

Nazon_Katts · October 2014

Gillysan wrote: »

Played and successfully cleared content raised my skills. On my sorcerer I have all class passives maxed and only a few skills not morphed and fully ranked up in both morph options. I'm only v7, the only thing lagging behind is my Alliance skills although Support ones are coming along nicely. I have all skyshards except for Cadwell's Gold areas and Craglorn. Six maxed crafts. You mean this is all going to be taken away? (rhetorical question)

It's fine you find a sense of accomplishment. I did too, otherwise I wouldn't have done it in the first place. But VR zones are still very underpopulated, Craglorn quests not played, because that is just not enough for most people. We need more incentives and not less.

And don't fool yourself, those SP are picked up fast and with relatively ease, should one need them. And what's crafting got to do with all that? (not a rethorical question)

Other than achievement points that do nothing and some dyes, you don't gain that much from content completion - maybe a title once in a while, but nothing that would bring these activities up to par with grinding and content skipping, even tho it takes a considerable amount of time more to do them.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Frenkthevile wrote: »

I agree with Paul Sage.

Gooey wrote: »

Free Big Spear

lordspyder wrote: »

Frenkthevile wrote: »

I agree with Paul Sage.

In Sage we trust

All of you, take a lap and do push ups.

Gillysan · October 2014

Well there I certainly agree with you, the VR content is poor compared to 1-50. I am not a fan of Cadwell's quests and I have skipped as much of it as I can. I've gone heavily pvp while waiting for next release of pve story content. I don't mind waiting some for that to happen.

Slurg · October 2014

G0ku wrote: »

Don´t know if I really understood this - from what I read I assume the way to get the most out of this would be:

Take your VR1 toon to Hircine and grind yourself to VR14 and wait for champion system, then start to do the VR quests and all the exploring to get the XP for these which is lost for your main character, because all things you´ve done before champion system arrives doesn´t get recognized?

Can someone tell me if i got this right?

If it turns out this way this seems the most terrible solution...

Don't know if it's right but that's how I read it also.

Another possible solution if you aren't tied to just one character is to bring up a stable of alts from different character classes to VR1 so you'll be ready to play whatever class is FOTM through the inevitable rebalancing.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · October 2014

(Paul Sage:) that would put people so far ahead in the Champion System that that might actually hurt it

I really don't get this. Anyone new to the game will always see lots of players way ahead of them in skill and character progression. Why do we arbitrarily need to level the playing field for all existing players? Why make everyone more equal for a short while if that is going to change anyway? Don't they expect more players to join the game in the future? If the system cannot handle a situation where some players are way ahead of the rest, then what are its chances to work in the long term?

I'm fine with being seriously dominated by players who spend all day with the game. I do not feel entitled to be on equal footing with people who have the time to treat this game as a competitive sport rather than spare time leisure. It could be nice to have segregated PvP instances for those of us who are not really amused with getting smacked by overwhelming forces of "elite soldiers", but trying to create a level playing field across the board seems futile and counterproductive.

Govalon · October 2014

lordspyder wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

What I take from the OP is that the champion system will remove many XP bonuses in the game, and if you haven't earn them before the conversion to the champion system, you can no longer earn them.

Any XP you currently earned will be converted to the champion system.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

It would really *** off a large number of players if they lost XP already earned. I will cancel my subscription if this is the case.

not even close. What the issue is that the Champ system will introduce XP bonuses to Vet Characters for things like exploration and opening chests. These things do not give XP to Vet characters ATM. After the Change, they will, but they're not going to back credit those of us that have done those things after the change, So If I', vet 1 now, and have all of Auridon explored, I effectively loose all that exploration XP I would of gotten if I had just waited.

So you are afraid you lose all of those 5 xp you got from exploration? And another 10 xp lost from chests? Just kill one boss in Craglorn and you have already accumulated more xp than all players in the game combined from chests and exploration. This is not an issue because xp from something like exploration is negible if you are past something like level 20

Nazon_Katts · October 2014

For you it might be a non-issue. For others not so much. Is it a rather small sum of xp? Probably so. But why then not reward it, if it doesn't make that much of difference anyways? It's not so much about the xp lost, but a pointer in the wrong direction, when you not give out due rewards for activities that were already on the lesser spectrum reward-wise to begin with.

People that do enjoy non-combat and non-quest activities would love to see some sort of acknowledgement as well, for all the effort and time that is put into the game. Personally, I was hoping they would get away from the XP only idea and allow different things to feed the champion system than just mob kills and quests, eg achievement points, alliance points, crafting, play time, account time, etc.

But that doesn't seem to be even anywhere near on their agenda, as they apparently don't deem explo xp to be that imported. Instead of incorporating other aspects of their game in the process towards the champion system, they concentrate on pure XP gains again. There needs to be more.

Maybe there will be more, but they haven't hinted at that yet and so I'm speaking up now to make sure they see there's people in their game that would love them to move in another direction and allow for more ways to progress, so every play-style can find it's niche and still progress in the game. Do all those ways have to offer the same speed and be perfectly balanced against each other? No, but it would be great if they were just there.

So again, of course this is just a thing in principle and a relatively small issue right now. But mid to long term, depending on how things evolve, it can either add to the game's longevity by offering more options or be detrimental by a too narrow progression path.

If you don't take issue with that, fine, that's great! I don't expect you to, you can go your merry way and continue to enjoy the game as you please. But don't tell me, when I see that my particular play style gets less and less support, I shouldn't have a problem with that, just because you don't have one.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@ZOS_PaulSage stated in the recent ESO Live, there won't be any XP rewards retroactively given for playing content (exploration, treasure chests, etc) when they make the conversion from VP to XP. His reasoning was that they must be careful about spreading players too far progression wise and therefore cannot reimburse lost xp on the aforementioned activities.

I strongly disagree with this decision and question the reasons given. This is due to the following reasons:
XP can be stashed up to a cap

fastest and easiest way to stash up on XP is grinding

grinders already are way ahead of the curve, but still can earn more

playing content slows progression and puts you well behind the curve

lost content xp probably would never be enough to hit cap

lost content xp would only help with catching up

Instead it's getting ignored altogether, further disincentivizing playing content and promoting the grind. Instead of making sure that players are closer to each other in progression, this only widens the gap. Denying players acknowledgment for their efforts they put into actually playing content you've created, will only lead to more players refusing to play said content.

While I do not have any quarrels with the grind per say and strongly believe it must have a place in the game, I cannot fathom how playing content is constantly made less appealing and grinding more rewarding.

If you want a more even playing field, reconsider this decision. If you want to show some respect to the folks who play content, reconsider this decision.

Grinding actually gives lots of VP but terrible XP.

Fastest grind for just XP is questing.