Champion System - No Retroactive XP Reward

Nazon_Katts

@ZOS_PaulSage stated in the recent ESO Live, there won't be any XP rewards retroactively given for playing content (exploration, treasure chests, etc) when they make the conversion from VP to XP. His reasoning was that they must be careful about spreading players too far progression wise and therefore cannot reimburse lost xp on the aforementioned activities.

I strongly disagree with this decision and question the reasons given. This is due to the following reasons:

• XP can be stashed up to a cap
• fastest and easiest way to stash up on XP is grinding
• grinders already are way ahead of the curve, but still can earn more
• playing content slows progression and puts you well behind the curve
• lost content xp probably would never be enough to hit cap
• lost content xp would only help with catching up

Instead it's getting ignored altogether, further disincentivizing playing content and promoting the grind. Instead of making sure that players are closer to each other in progression, this only widens the gap. Denying players acknowledgment for their efforts they put into actually playing content you've created, will only lead to more players refusing to play said content.

While I do not have any quarrels with the grind per say and strongly believe it must have a place in the game, I cannot fathom how playing content is constantly made less appealing and grinding more rewarding.

If you want a more even playing field, reconsider this decision. If you want to show some respect to the folks who play content, reconsider this decision.

MercutioElessar

Except for the part where he says grinding has it's place (I strongly disagree with that): /sign.

Nazon_Katts

MercutioElessar wrote: »

Except for the part where he says grinding has it's place (I strongly disagree with that): /sign.

It needs to be balanced. Reimbursing lost xp would be one small step, gaining champion points via achievement points another, to bring playing content up to par with the grind.

Options are great and vital to have in an MMO, but not when there's an overly efficient one making it the optimal choice and thus almost only one. Craglorn shows everyday that this will only lead to players neglecting content.

OTOH, you don't want to do away with grinding, so people have another way to cap on their umpteenth play-through. Though leveling by dungeon running and PvP should have been brought up to par first. But alas, they nerfed that instead as well and never revisited it.

While the coming changes to dungeons will have a positve effect on the past 45 experience, decision like the one here really make me wonder, in which direction they want to go with this game. Currently, it does point towards grinder again and that's what I don't like, nor understand, given how content heavy this game actually is.

BCBasher

As someone with as someone said "excessive" grinding past vr14 I 100% agee that players playing the game should be rewarded for playing the game as intended. I spend a bunch of in game time in a "grey area" because my left arm doesn't always work and It gives me an option to not get "left behind". Why in the hell would people actually playing as designed and not abusing game mechanics be penalized?

timidobserver

I would just allow players to reach the retroactive Champion Point cap however they want too.

For example, I would say that the highest Champion Point count you can start off with is 15. Then, I'd take all XP earned, content played, Veteran Ranks, PVP played, everything else done into consideration where people fall at between 1 and 15.

Soulshine

Frankly I would say his "explanation" is far from a complete answer to anything, considering his verbage let alone correctly identifying the system he is referring to... frankly, just embarrasingly bad communication style for someone in his position, if you ask me:

“Yeah, so we have to be really careful with this. I would say first, even though I hate saying this, no, I don’t think we’ll be able to do that, and secondly we have to be really careful when bootstrapping the system. One of the things we’ve taken pains to make sure is true in the Justice System is that we don’t separate people so much; the Justice System isn’t meant to separate people through this linear progression, it’s meant to allow people a progression that broadens out their characters, and sometimes if we give you too many XP for what you‘ve done previously that would put people so far ahead in the Champion System that that might actually hurt it; so that’s one of the things we have to be really careful with.”

Valen_Byte

So the Exploration Trait will be obsolete?

BCBasher

Soulshine wrote: »

Frankly I would say his "explanation" is far from a complete answer to anything, considering his verbage let alone correctly identifying the system he is referring to... frankly, just embarrasingly bad communication style for someone in his position, if you ask me:

“Yeah, so we have to be really careful with this. I would say first, even though I hate saying this, no, I don’t think we’ll be able to do that, and secondly we have to be really careful when bootstrapping the system. One of the things we’ve taken pains to make sure is true in the Justice System is that we don’t separate people so much; the Justice System isn’t meant to separate people through this linear progression, it’s meant to allow people a progression that broadens out their characters, and sometimes if we give you too many XP for what you‘ve done previously that would put people so far ahead in the Champion System that that might actually hurt it; so that’s one of the things we have to be really careful with.”

I caught that slip several times too. His vagueness would be almost required in position though, I hate salesmen who make promises the company working below them can't keep. I'm dedicating a certain amount of time to farming XP based the guild summit recording where it was stated they would cap retroactively gained CP but it would be a very high cap that most couldn't get to.

Vahrokh

I'll tell this as someone who is here since beta and was capped VR12 many, many months ago (I levelled with "original hard mode" VR, that's the time):

who cares.


Do you fear... what? To have missed the train? That somebody is going to do better than you? If so, it's not like an imposed lead will save you in the long run.

Just enjoy the game.

RSram

What I take from the OP is that the champion system will remove many achievements that give XP points in the game, and if you haven't earn them before the conversion to the champion system, you can no longer earn them.

Any XP points you currently earned will be converted to the champion system.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

It would really *** off a large number of players if they lost XP points already earned. I will cancel my subscription if this is the case.

Gillysan

Vahrokh wrote: »

I'll tell this as someone who is here since beta and was capped VR12 many, many months ago (I levelled with "original hard mode" VR, that's the time):

who cares.


Do you fear... what? To have missed the train? That somebody is going to do better than you? If so, it's not like an imposed lead will save you in the long run.

Just enjoy the game.

I have to agree with this guy and my highest character to date v6, early start. Why are you worried about keeping up with these 'grinders'? The real incentive to staying in this game long term is to always have objectives to reach. You 'grind' and you run out fairly quick.

If anything I'm more worried that they are resorting to this Champion System 6 months after release. It was several years, forget how many, before EQ implemented Alternative Abilities progression tree. My old gamer advise to the devs is to consider the success of the Kunark expansion over the AA tree.

This is a pve game with pvp tacked on. EVE is a pvp game with pve tacked on. Both these games are built from the ground up to be what they are. The devs need to stick to this design. I mostly pvp these days but give me some real pve content and I'll be right back doing that.

(On a side note pvp needs a whole lot of work still but it's getting there and can be fun. I have no idea if I will ever go to Craglorn other than to harvest nodes for crafting. I prefer Cyrodiil over that by far.)

curlyqloub14_ESO

RSram wrote: »

What I take from the OP is that the champion system will remove many XP bonuses in the game, and if you haven't earn them before the conversion to the champion system, you can no longer earn them.

Any XP you currently earned will be converted to the champion system.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

It would really *** off a large number of players if they lost XP already earned. I will cancel my subscription if this is the case.

Um, what "XP Bonuses"? You get XP, you get skill pts, you level up. What "bonus" is there that you don't think you'll get anymore?

WraithAzraiel

I'm not happy about this.

They basically said.

"Hey, I know you went out of your way to go ahead and complete zones in their entirety, including stuff you didn't get VP for but now that we're changing our ways and you actually WOULD be rewarded for doing so, you already did it so you're SoL. Thanks for playing!"

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Vahrokh wrote: »

I'll tell this as someone who is here since beta and was capped VR12 many, many months ago (I levelled with "original hard mode" VR, that's the time)

You mean during the 'abuse the hell out of the Crystals' phase in Craglorn part 1 I take it.

That was hard?

LOL?

Nazon_Katts

Gillysan wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I'll tell this as someone who is here since beta and was capped VR12 many, many months ago (I levelled with "original hard mode" VR, that's the time):

who cares.


Do you fear... what? To have missed the train? That somebody is going to do better than you? If so, it's not like an imposed lead will save you in the long run.

Just enjoy the game.

I have to agree with this guy and my highest character to date v6, early start. Why are you worried about keeping up with these 'grinders'? The real incentive to staying in this game long term is to always have objectives to reach. You 'grind' and you run out fairly quick.

If anything I'm more worried that they are resorting to this Champion System 6 months after release. It was several years, forget how many, before EQ implemented Alternative Abilities progression tree. My old gamer advise to the devs is to consider the success of the Kunark expansion over the AA tree.

This is a pve game with pvp tacked on. EVE is a pvp game with pve tacked on. Both these games are built from the ground up to be what they are. The devs need to stick to this design. I mostly pvp these days but give me some real pve content and I'll be right back doing that.

(On a side note pvp needs a whole lot of work still but it's getting there and can be fun. I have no idea if I will ever go to Craglorn other than to harvest nodes for crafting. I prefer Cyrodiil over that by far.)

Hm, I thought I laid it out reasonably well in the OP. But please, since there's apparent comprehension problems, just point me towards the sections that might be unclear and I'll gladly elaborate.

lordspyder

RSram wrote: »

What I take from the OP is that the champion system will remove many XP bonuses in the game, and if you haven't earn them before the conversion to the champion system, you can no longer earn them.

Any XP you currently earned will be converted to the champion system.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

It would really *** off a large number of players if they lost XP already earned. I will cancel my subscription if this is the case.

not even close. What the issue is that the Champ system will introduce XP bonuses to Vet Characters for things like exploration and opening chests. These things do not give XP to Vet characters ATM. After the Change, they will, but they're not going to back credit those of us that have done those things after the change, So If I', vet 1 now, and have all of Auridon explored, I effectively loose all that exploration XP I would of gotten if I had just waited.

Naivefanboi

soo what does this mean for a vr14? i get to start all over and re level to "champion"15?
also if we need xp to level what is a vr14 who has completed all of cadwells gold and silver supposed to do?
dungeons, pvp,quest in cyrodil.. are those gonna be viable ways to levels?

Naivefanboi

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I'm not happy about this.

They basically said.

"Hey, I know you went out of your way to go ahead and complete zones in their entirety, including stuff you didn't get VP for but now that we're changing our ways and you actually WOULD be rewarded for doing so, you already did it so you're SoL. Thanks for playing!"

ok yea thats what i got form it also.doo you just not want us to play the game anymore zos or.....
by the way when does beta end so i can stop having my progress wiped? rofl

Gillysan

You don't lose your skill levels and that was rewarded in VR's. Unless you are someone who only plays with the first 5 skills that ever hit your hotbar. What they are likely trying to do is that you don't log in after Champ System is released and are already leveled up in it. They want you to work your way up.

themizario

I've read up on the champion system, I'm going to be honest and say ONLY because it's different does it scare me and don't want to see any changes. That being said, anyone else feels this way?

Gyudan

If you are halfway between VR4 and VR5 right now, you will still be at the exact same place when they switch from VP to XP, that's all.

Some people are trying to avoid the ever that reward lots of VPs in Caldwell's Silver and Gold to simply stay at the same level as the content, because if you complete every dungeon, anchor and world boss in addition of the quests, your character will level too quickly.
Adding additional XP for previous locations and chest discovered would penalize those players.

This has nothing to do with the champion points that everyone will receive after the champion system is released.

RSram

curlyqloub14_ESO wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

What I take from the OP is that the champion system will remove many XP bonuses in the game, and if you haven't earn them before the conversion to the champion system, you can no longer earn them.

Any XP you currently earned will be converted to the champion system.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

It would really *** off a large number of players if they lost XP already earned. I will cancel my subscription if this is the case.

Um, what "XP Bonuses"? You get XP, you get skill pts, you level up. What "bonus" is there that you don't think you'll get anymore?

I should've left out the bonus part, I just meant XP points.

Gilvoth

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I'm not happy about this.

They basically said.

"Hey, I know you went out of your way to go ahead and complete zones in their entirety, including stuff you didn't get VP for but now that we're changing our ways and you actually WOULD be rewarded for doing so, you already did it so you're SoL. Thanks for playing!"

nerevarine1138

The only people who have a bit of a legitimate argument here are people at level cap who are hoping to get a head start when the Champion System goes live. However, I believe that ZO has indicated that there will be a cap on how much XP can be earned past VR14 before the system switches.

With regards to those who are still leveling: you didn't miss out on anything except exploration XP. And since they're reducing the XP requirement for VR leveling significantly, you'll be just fine.

CapuchinSeven

BCBasher wrote: »

[I hate salesmen who make promises the company working below them can't keep.

Ugh I hate it, I used to work for a company and the salesmen would make promises we couldn't really code. It's like they made it up as they went along.

Nazon_Katts

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The only people who have a bit of a legitimate argument here are people at level cap who are hoping to get a head start when the Champion System goes live. However, I believe that ZO has indicated that there will be a cap on how much XP can be earned past VR14 before the system switches.

With regards to those who are still leveling: you didn't miss out on anything except exploration XP. And since they're reducing the XP requirement for VR leveling significantly, you'll be just fine.

But that right there is the problem. Since it will be a direct rank conversion, you won't have anything from reduced XP per rank, when you've done all exploration already. You will have the exact same VR and corresponding XP.

So if you're at VR11 plus 50% now with VP, you'll be at the exact same spot then - VR11 plus 50% with XP - even though you did all the content and the requirements were reduced. A good portion of one's efforts goes to waste in that case.

Surely, we're not talking about tremendous amounts of XP (depends a bit on how significant the reduction turns out to be) lost here and a problem in principle (or rather a small part of a bigger problem), but if their goal truly is to keep players closer together, then not awarding earned XP to players that naturally progress slower does not make any sense at all.

Not to forget this doesn't only feel like getting the shaft, but this is truly the case here. Dunno, but considering the state the game is in, it would be wise to keep those still playing entertained and withholding rewards that were legitemately earned doesn't seem to be a particular promising approach to me.

Dagoth_Rac

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And since they're reducing the XP requirement for VR leveling significantly, you'll be just fine.

This is misleading. The XP requirement is reduced, but you get much less XP for things than you get VP. For example, I killed a world boss in Malabal Tor on live and got like 50,000 VP, mostly for turning the area on the map to white. On PTS, I cleared the same world boss and got like 7000 XP. I got the impression on PTS that going from, say, VR7 to VR8 will now take longer if you quest/explore/clear the map. I needed like 3.2M VP to go from VR7 to VR8 in live. On PTS, I only need 1.6M XP, but I seem to be getting much less XP than half the amount of VP I used to get.

Vahrokh

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I'll tell this as someone who is here since beta and was capped VR12 many, many months ago (I levelled with "original hard mode" VR, that's the time)

You mean during the 'abuse the hell out of the Crystals' phase in Craglorn part 1 I take it.

That was hard?

LOL?

No dude, I entered in Craplorn at VR 11.5, go look at my past posts, I even posted the maps. Also, if you read ANY of my past posts, I ALWAYS tell Craplorn is the worst piece of manure ever, even these days I only go there because I have trial to do with guild.

xaraan

I've taken all this as, when vet points change to xp next update, you won't get xp for the old stuff you've done. They said previously they would be tracking xp for when entire champ system roles out, but I personally didn't feel they were currently tracking it (since vets don't get xp) and would do so once vet players actually began to earn xp.

KenjiJU

lordspyder wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

What I take from the OP is that the champion system will remove many XP bonuses in the game, and if you haven't earn them before the conversion to the champion system, you can no longer earn them.

Any XP you currently earned will be converted to the champion system.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

It would really *** off a large number of players if they lost XP already earned. I will cancel my subscription if this is the case.

not even close. What the issue is that the Champ system will introduce XP bonuses to Vet Characters for things like exploration and opening chests. These things do not give XP to Vet characters ATM. After the Change, they will, but they're not going to back credit those of us that have done those things after the change, So If I', vet 1 now, and have all of Auridon explored, I effectively loose all that exploration XP I would of gotten if I had just waited.

And you'll level up much faster with the lower XP requirement to reach the next Vet ranks. So while you did a bunch of minor stuff in the past, the major and minor stuff you will be doing anyway will get you to point B faster than it would have before. This should be a positive in the interim. And it's only interim as this will not matter some months down the road when we'll all be on Champion Points.

Everyone's going to have to take a little of the bad with the good, for the sake of an overall better change for everyone. Trying to be perfectly fair in every single aspect is going to cost them time and it's not really necessary unless it's a rather large screw-up. I don't think this is a large screw up at all. It's a minor inconvenience, if that, because again, you'll level faster from here on out regardless.

If the XP from those minor events amounted to something significant, if it's even possible, having players largely unknowingly jump up in levels is going to have a negative effect as well.

In short, molehill.

Guppet

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I'm not happy about this.

They basically said.

"Hey, I know you went out of your way to go ahead and complete zones in their entirety, including stuff you didn't get VP for but now that we're changing our ways and you actually WOULD be rewarded for doing so, you already did it so you're SoL. Thanks for playing!"

They may as well have said, grind Craglorn from VR1-14, then do the actual VR leveling content, since that's the only way to get full recognition.

Seems any xp tracking, is only from max level onwards.

Completing Cadwells gold was already highly disappointing from a rewards perspective, this adds a couple of slaps to the quest completion, well thank you Zeni.