Justice System - Not Looking Forward To It

nerevarine1138 · October 2014

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

I think what they're trying to say is that it kills the immersion for them.
It might not affect you, doesn't mean other people won't have different tastes.

Other people immersed in a living game world breaks immersion? That's got to be a first.

I, for one, find it much more immersive when crime is an option for those who wish to pursue it.

Lord_Draevan · October 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Other people immersed in a living game world breaks immersion? That's got to be a first.

I, for one, find it much more immersive when crime is an option for those who wish to pursue it.

Probably more the dead NPCs all over the towns. Like I said, different tastes. Nothing wrong with that.

Akula · October 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

...
Now it's going to be, log in, go to crafting hub, oh look, players killing NPCs, enforcers killing criminals, criminals fighting guards, can't I just make a staff for a guild mate? Log out.

What part of this scenario actually inhibits you from making the staff for a guild mate?

He/She is sensitive to violence. Cant we all have some empathy here? I for one vote we take out all killing in the game so not to possibly upset some of of our more sensitive player base. You guys are all a bunch of meanies!

nerevarine1138 · October 2014

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Other people immersed in a living game world breaks immersion? That's got to be a first.

I, for one, find it much more immersive when crime is an option for those who wish to pursue it.

Probably more the dead NPCs all over the towns. Like I said, different tastes. Nothing wrong with that.

And why would we assume dead NPCs will be all over town? Will they be on a magical respawn timer that no other enemy in the game has ever been on ever?

KingRebz · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

KingRebz wrote: »

Exactly they are adding a feature that was in the previous ES games and now people are upset about this?

This is not the same as what was offered in SP TES games. In those games, if a player decided to go on a crime spree, then it did not impact any other player of the games. Now we all have to deal with it.

Now it's going to be, log in, go to crafting hub, oh look, players killing NPCs, enforcers killing criminals, criminals fighting guards, can't I just make a staff for a guild mate? Log out.

They are obviously going to be areas where you cannot commit crimes like banks, shops etc. The same way you tried to kill a npc who was with a quest they wouldnt die..they will work their way around this.

Lord_Draevan · October 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And why would we assume dead NPCs will be all over town? Will they be on a magical respawn timer that no other enemy in the game has ever been on ever?

Well until it comes out, we don't know if their bodies will vanish instantly or remain until the NPC respawns. And likely they'll die the instant they respawn... for the first few days. I'm sure people will get bored after a while.
Luckily essential NPCs and merchants are un-targetable.

Kewljag_66_ESO · October 2014

cgipervert wrote: »

After watching the Comic Con video with the ESO developers discussion on upcoming changes, I have to say, I'm not looking forward to the new Justice System.

To get anywhere in this game you have to devote a lot of time and work and I see this system just slowing me down. Right now I can have auto loot on and can work my way through buildings and dungeons quickly and sort everything out later when my bags are full. Now, I'll have to turn off auto loot and stop and examine each container and determine if something inside is worth the risk. Plus, if you get caught stealing and pay the fine you just don't lose the item you stole, but ALL stolen items in your possession. This means you will have to make MANY trips to the black market wasting more of your time if you don't want to lose anything.

Additionally, now that NPCs are killable I see cities full of [snip]holes running around in groups killing everyone including the guards just for the fun of it since they will be able to overpower everyone. It will be anarchy on the streets. This will ruin the game immersion experience for me.

Also, accidental NPC death from splash damage has me worried. There are always situations where mobs are placed around NPCs or you get chased towards an NPC in combat and an accidental death seems inevitable. Fines for killing someone accidentally or not are insanely expensive. I work hard for my gold and can't afford to lose a single coin because of this.

Well, that's my opinion on it.

Stealing will only be from crates and bags that are owned by friendly merchants. basically the ones in the cities and towns with shops. this is basic right and wrong mentality. Just don't steal! you can still easiliy get all materials, you just have to actually leave town and go in to the bandit hideouts and controlled areas, there is also plenty of abandoned crates and barrels everywhere and even caravan wrecks. You will never be in danger of PVP if you dont steal.

Only NPCs that ahve no effects on others are kill able. Those doing that will have no effect on you.

Nestor · October 2014

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

the DB isn't about random slaying but rather killings with a purpose. To honor the Will of Sithis and the contract made with the Night Mother.

Yep, the DB is different, you are given specific targets to take out. Much like a quest does now.

Samadhi wrote: »

What part of this scenario actually inhibits you from making the staff for a guild mate?

Your right it does not stop me from being able to do it, it just stops me from wanting to do it.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Don't want to see other players participating in the justice system? Go play a single-player game.

I will probably be going to. I have already said that previously in this thread. Thank you for repeating my point.

Hopefully this system comes out after my 6 month re-sub is up.

Kewljag_66_ESO · October 2014

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

Anyone who really believes people won't run through towns killing every NPC they can either wasn't here for the opening of the dye stations or has a short memory. Every dye station in every city I visited was plagued with healers spamming heals or someone firing off impulse to purposely screw with people who were trying to dye their gear. In case you were lucky enough to join ESO after Zenimax fixed it...just imagine trying to dye your gear with fireworks exploding in your face. That didn't stop until Zenimax confirmed it was greifing and therefore bannable and managed to isolate the dye stations from game effects once you engage the station. And yes, I reported people for griefing the dye stations.

As I see it opening day of the justice system will have some bored VR players visiting lower level areas and...killing every NPC, guard and low level player that tried to stop them. Because they can. Before anyone says "but surely VR players are more mature and invested in ESO" well it was the VR players who were the biggest culprits of the dye station spam fest we were treated to.

I for one am not looking forward to any aspect of the Justice System.

And if you don't want any part of that you wont get any. NPCs that effect you with quests cannot be killed. You cannot be attacked if you do not steal or kill.

Lord_Draevan · October 2014

Wonder who keeps lol-ing all my posts... didn't realise saying people have different tastes and there's nothing wrong with that was so absurd :disagree:
Then again, this is the internet!

Samadhi · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

...

Samadhi wrote: »

What part of this scenario actually inhibits you from making the staff for a guild mate?

Your right it does not stop me from being able to do it, it just stops me from wanting to do it.
...

It is unfortunate that other players playing the game and enjoying themselves stops you from wanting to help your guild mate.
Suppose that the presence of other players is one of the consequences involved in playing an MMO.

Nestor · October 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

KingRebz wrote: »

Didnt you ever go in a town/city in the ES games out of boredom to kill randomers? now you can do it with friends, get chased by the popo and other players; exciting and fun no?

No. I don't think I have ever killed an NPC in a TES game that either did not attack me first, or was not instructed by a quest to do so. I don't treat these games like a shooter where everything on the map is a target. That is what dungeons and the wilderness is for.

Yet the criminal role either being a thief or a murderer is one of the most played by players in ES games.

You had asked me if I ever killed every NPC in a town. Now your talking about theft, so what were you asking me about?

I don't think I have ever said that I am against the stealing, just the mechanics of it as currently you break stealth as soon as you activate an container meaning you won't ever be able to steal undetected unless there are no NPCs around. So that needs to be fixed (as I am sure it will be) before this is implemented.

My issue is with making the towns safe so that players can come along and make them unsafe. I signed up for this game because it was not All World PvP, PvP was restricted to an area on the map that I had a choice to go to or not. It did not impact me in one way or the other what happened in the PvP zone. Now its PvP in the towns, even if limited to criminals and enforcers. If this aspect was in the game from the beginning I never would have subbed.

Nestor · October 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

It is unfortunate that other players playing the game and enjoying themselves stops you from wanting to help your guild mate.
Suppose that the presence of other players is one of the consequences involved in playing an MMO.

Other people are playing the game right now and enjoying themselves and it does not bother me. I like the presence of other players in the game. In fact I have even said that in the Good, Bad, Ugly thread.

So, you missed my point, but thank you for trying.

Samadhi · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

It is unfortunate that other players playing the game and enjoying themselves stops you from wanting to help your guild mate.
Suppose that the presence of other players is one of the consequences involved in playing an MMO.

Other people are playing the game right now and enjoying themselves and it does not bother me. I like the presence of other players in the game. In fact I have even said that in the Good, Bad, Ugly thread.

So, you missed my point, but thank you for trying.

Responded to the points that were written here in our discussion. Have not read this other thread you are mentioning, and not particularly interested in it.

You stated, in this thread, that other players participating in a game mechanic inhibits you from crafting a staff for your guild mate.
When asked for clarification of how it stops you, you clarified to state that other players participating in a game mechanic stops you from even wanting to craft a staff for your guild mate.

Nestor · October 2014

Hey Akula my point is and always has been that I make the towns safe for the game quests and this JS comes along and makes the towns unsafe. Guess what, I battle the mobs to make the town safe. So, that throws you whole argument out the window.

I removed a flame.

Shunravi · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

No, I am just asking if that is all you have to debate with are personal attacks and insults.

I was actually looking forward to having a good debate on this, but I can see that's not going to happen.

well, when you say you are going to leave....

But, if you want my opinion on your

Nestor wrote: »

I made these towns safe in a quest. Now, they are not safe, so why did I go through the effort in the first place.

all i have to say is LOL.

Yea, because that totally how it should work.

"My grandpappy drove out some gangsters 50 years ago, and there hasn't been a single crime on our city in the years since!"

You see how ridiculous that sounds? Justice never sleeps! Its an ongoing battle. why do you want it to be so static?

Samadhi · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

Hey Akie (see I can do this too) my point is and always has been that I make the towns safe for the game quests and this JS comes along and makes the towns unsafe. Guess what, I battle the mobs to make the town safe. So, that throws you whole argument out the window.

Saving a town from one threat does not mean that nothing can ever cause problems in a town again.
The Justice System simply means that other players are able to actively and continually impact the dynamics of individual towns by participating in a game mechanic, rather than all locales becoming stagnant.

Audigy · October 2014

You had asked me if I ever killed every NPC in a town. Now your talking about theft, so what were you asking me about?

That was actually someone else not me

I was only pointing out that the crime system played a major part in all ES games and therefore rightfully should play on too at ESO.

I don't think I have ever said that I am against the stealing, just the mechanics of it as currently you break stealth as soon as you activate an container meaning you won't ever be able to steal undetected unless there are no NPCs around. So that needs to be fixed (as I am sure it will be) before this is implemented.

In my experience a good thief also couldn't steal undetected in previous ES games if a guard was around. Many NPCs actually came to you if you were alone in a room so that you couldn't just randomly pick things. Many shop vendors did so, that's why stealing at night was usually the way to go for.

To steal without being in any danger of detection sounds pretty boring and would be wrong. I am sure there will be spots in the world where someone can steal totally undetected or almost, while at others you need to distract guards, check their patrol routes or similar.

My issue is with making the towns safe so that players can come along and make them unsafe. I signed up for this game because it was not All World PvP, PvP was restricted to an area on the map that I had a choice to go to or not. It did not impact me in one way or the other what happened in the PvP zone. Now its PvP in the towns, even if limited to criminals and enforcers. If this aspect was in the game from the beginning I never would have subbed.

Why do people make towns unsafe? Nobody will ever be able to touch you if you don't want to.
The towns will be as safe for you as they are now.

Just the criminals will be unsafe but this sounds about right to me. They do bad so they deserve to be punished.

In my opinion the whole justice system will make playing a role more attractive. Right now being a thief was pretty much pointless, you had nothing of major value to steal but you also couldn't be caught. At the same time, being an honest and righteous character didn't give you any benefit either.

In future with the addition of the DB we might even get a job from NPCs how great would this be! Imagine you have to break into the church and steal an old relic - or even murder someone in town. I think there are great opportunities for the Devs, its the first move towards a more sandbox environment with actual consequences and this must be part of an ES game.

Varicite · October 2014

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

I think what they're trying to say is that it kills the immersion for them to have dead NPCs all over the place.
It might not affect your immersion depending on your tastes, doesn't mean other people won't have different tastes.

Personally, it kills my RL immersion whenever I see a cop car w/ flashing lights screaming down the street.

Can somebody please remove the RL justice system so that my morning drives to work aren't effected by this terrible mechanic?

Logging in to RL and seeing cops chasing traffic offenders ruins my morning and makes it so I don't even want to continue on my way to the office.

Lord_Draevan · October 2014

Varicite wrote: »

Personally, it kills my RL immersion whenever I see a cop car w/ flashing lights screaming down the street.

Can somebody please remove the RL justice system so that my morning drives to work aren't effected by this terrible mechanic?

Logging in to RL and seeing cops chasing traffic offenders ruins my morning and makes it so I don't even want to continue on my way to the office.

Personally, I don't mind with or without the JS.
I'm just saying not everyone's going to be onboard with it.

Ragefist · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

cgipervert wrote: »

Additionally, now that NPCs are killable I see cities full of [snip]holes running around in groups killing everyone including the guards just for the fun of it since they will be able to overpower everyone.

Not looking forward to this "feature" at all.

I guess you both didnt hear about the opposing faction of players itchy to force PvP on someone...

ontheleftcoast · October 2014

Varicite wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

I think what they're trying to say is that it kills the immersion for them to have dead NPCs all over the place.
It might not affect your immersion depending on your tastes, doesn't mean other people won't have different tastes.

Personally, it kills my RL immersion whenever I see a cop car w/ flashing lights screaming down the street.

Can somebody please remove the RL justice system so that my morning drives to work aren't effected by this terrible mechanic?

Logging in to RL and seeing cops chasing traffic offenders ruins my morning and makes it so I don't even want to continue on my way to the office.

I'm not sure if you intended it but this is sort of the point. If every 10 minutes of your day you had to put up with sirens blaring and sporadic gun fire you'd leave the area (assuming that was possible). Even so called "high crime" areas in most places don't see the kind of endless crime sprees we're likely to see in towns. Frankly dragging even a small part of the PvP aspect of the game into every zone doesn't really like it going to work the way they think it will.

I've played lots of the solo content in Cyrodiil. My VR13 Nightblade has claimed all but a few of the skyshards and cleared most of the dungeons across the entire zone even though she's EP and the campaign I chose is dominated by DC working her way thru enemy territory wasn't all that hard because Cyrodiil is vast and the players are pretty clumped into a few places.

But that interaction dynamic will completely break down in the towns. Hell, most days I login to my toon in Rawl'kha there are more PC than NPC in town. Trying to steal something without being detected is going to mean sending messages to guild mates along the lines of "We've got 8 known Enforcers in town. That means we're going to have to create multiple distractions to get them away from the target. Get some brothers together and each take pains to get caught sneaking around. Make yourself a nuisance that has to be dealt with. When we get the 'All clear' on guild chat from the stake out then the three of us will hit the mark."

And while that sounds appealing (actually it kind of does) it's going to turn into the equivalent of zergballs rolling thru Cyrodiil's hills and farms. And that will get real old, real quick. Eventually some balance will be put in place to deal with it. Just like Zenimax has fixed the PvP issues in Cyrodiil. Oh, wait... Ugh.

Varicite · October 2014

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Personally, it kills my RL immersion whenever I see a cop car w/ flashing lights screaming down the street.

Can somebody please remove the RL justice system so that my morning drives to work aren't effected by this terrible mechanic?

Logging in to RL and seeing cops chasing traffic offenders ruins my morning and makes it so I don't even want to continue on my way to the office.

Personally, I don't mind with or without the JS.
I'm just saying not everyone's going to be onboard with it.

Oh, I know you personally don't. : )

I maybe should've quoted @Nestor instead, as you were really just clarifying what he said.

Still, I just thought that I'd try to make the point in a silly way. These things happen all around us every day, and we barely bat an eyelash at it. There are NPCs already in towns that people kill (random NPC gang members hanging out, zombies, werewolves, more werewolves, even more werewolves.. I'm Daggerfall, they have a lot of wolves apparently) and nobody even notices.

I don't feel that the Justice System will be much different than that, just a little more widespread. People will get used to it, and if they aren't involved, I doubt they'll even notice or care that these things are happening.

As for RPers seeking immersion, they will simply find places slightly more out of the way so there isn't so much traffic. Y'know, like most RPers generally do right now.

nerevarine1138 · October 2014

Ragefist wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

cgipervert wrote: »

Additionally, now that NPCs are killable I see cities full of [snip]holes running around in groups killing everyone including the guards just for the fun of it since they will be able to overpower everyone.

Not looking forward to this "feature" at all.

I guess you both didnt hear about the opposing faction of players itchy to force PvP on someone...

Feel free to explain how a 100% opt-in system is "forced" PvP. I'll be waiting right over here...

Nestor · October 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

To steal without being in any danger of detection sounds pretty boring and would be wrong. I am sure there will be spots in the world where someone can steal totally undetected or almost, while at others you need to distract guards, check their patrol routes or similar.

Why do people make towns unsafe? Nobody will ever be able to touch you if you don't want to.
The towns will be as safe for you as they are now.

Sorry guys, had to Watch Kill Bill 2, the fight between two women in the trailer is too epic, especially the eye ball part.

You could sneak around places and steal undetected in the previous games near NPCs. If your Sneak skill was high enough, you could do it right in front of the NPC (which is probably too easy for most people to want) Although in Morrowind you had to have a Sneak skill pretty high up there to be able to do that. Or the Chameleon Ring which I don't think they will add to this game. In this game, if you are in Sneak, as soon as you activate a container, your seen. Or at least the game says you detected, even if there is no NPC in line of sight. This will not support thievery in towns if there are any NPCs around, as you will always be detected stealing. You should be able to sneak around and do things away from NPC sight and get away with it. Otherwise, anyone who steals will get a bounty, and what fun is that?

What irks me the most about the JS is it is bringing an aspect of PvP to the PvE areas. If I wanted to experience PvP, I would be in Cyrodill.

Nestor · October 2014

Shunravi wrote: »

Yea, because that totally how it should work.

"My grandpappy drove out some gangsters 50 years ago, and there hasn't been a single crime on our city in the years since!"

You see how ridiculous that sounds? Justice never sleeps! Its an ongoing battle. why do you want it to be so static?

OK, I never clarified that I am making the town safe for me, sorry about that. I can handle myself against the game, I love the combat and doing the dungeons and all that. I am sure I would suck in PvP and I mean that sincerely. I meant for the NPCs, that is who I made the city safe for. So yes I play a hero role. Its my thing.

Yes, there would be crime in a town in the real world, so why not in this game. I will probably be a part of it with one character who has some loose morals now, stealing though, not murdering random friendly NPCs. That's not my thing. And consequences for stealing should happen as long as there is a way to do the crimes undetected in some situations (hidden from view or no one around). That is all fine.

Yes, people get murdered in the real world and most people shrug it off. So why can't I? Murder rates in the real world are in the 1 to 12 per 100,000 range, with the US at 4.7. That's less than .5% for us. Almost everybody is not directly affected by murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

What concerns me is the NPCs are going to be dropping like flies.

The murder rate in this game, is going to be closer to 100%, initially. But, what will it drop to and how long will it take to happen? I have a feeling that a significant number of people who play this game are going to enjoy the murdering and fighting off the enforcers. And, that's fine if that is what people enjoy. It just means lots of NPCs murdered and the cities are going to have a significant amount of battles going on as the Justice system does it's thing. Not one here and one there that is easy to ignore or avoid. I think there are going to be battles going on everywhere in the towns.

That is what I am going to not like about the Justice System.

MornaBaine · October 2014

I would rather expect guards will be elites but yeah, the concerns about the jerks running amuck seem pretty obvious. So obvious in fact that I HOPE ZoS has already figure out a way to deal with it.

Averya_Teira · October 2014

The dead NPCs are client side from what I understood, you won't see a city full of dead bodies if you don't kill them youself... Also, quest NPCs cannot be killed.

Nestor · October 2014

What about all the battles between the guards/enforcers and murderers?

Voodoo · October 2014

I love the spin the OP has come up with ..its TMZ brilliant.