Justice System - Not Looking Forward To It
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OK, geniuses. Some NPCs are going to be essential (unkillable). So that solves most of your problem right there. NPC guards are going to be powerful enough to cause trouble for any character trying to kill with impunity. And player guards will be able to enforce as well.
Please, people, I don't care whether you think ZO has been screwing up with every update (they've been adding more and more content people want, but we'll go ahead and ignore that). Look at the system as described. Does it look anything like the doomsday you're predicting? No. So stop it.----
Murray?15 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I look forward to the zerg trains of NPC-killing Impulse spammers running around Wayrest and Rawl'kha and making PvE just as crash-ridden and unstable as PvP.7 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Look at the system as described. Does it look anything like the doomsday you're predicting?
Yes it does.Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"16 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Look at the system as described. Does it look anything like the doomsday you're predicting?
Yes it does.
Because... what?
The part where participation is voluntary?
The part where essential NPCs won't be killable?
What is so awful about this system for people who don't want to take part in it?----
Murray?3 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
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The only way I can not be affected by the Justice System is if the System is only on a different Instance than I am on.
So what that the "Essential NPCs" are not killable, I still have to wade through the corpses of the ones who are not essential. I still have to walk around or through the battles between the Enforcers and Criminals and Guards that will be going on.
I made these towns safe in a quest. Now, they are not safe, so why did I go through the effort in the first place. Now, if I can sign on to the game and choose a non JS server and play, then this system will not affect me. As it stands now, it will be going on all around me whether I choose to participate or not.
If I wanted to conduct business in dungeon like atmosphere, I would do all my business in Sanguines Demense.Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"13 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭I cant wait to stand around town crouched in stealth as an enforcer waiting for some nub to attack an NPC or steal from a merchant so i can wreck them.Edited by ExiledKhallisi on October 24, 2014 8:15PM>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War7 -
Jennifur_Vultee✭✭✭✭✭Anyone who really believes people won't run through towns killing every NPC they can either wasn't here for the opening of the dye stations or has a short memory. Every dye station in every city I visited was plagued with healers spamming heals or someone firing off impulse to purposely screw with people who were trying to dye their gear. In case you were lucky enough to join ESO after Zenimax fixed it...just imagine trying to dye your gear with fireworks exploding in your face. That didn't stop until Zenimax confirmed it was greifing and therefore bannable and managed to isolate the dye stations from game effects once you engage the station. And yes, I reported people for griefing the dye stations.
As I see it opening day of the justice system will have some bored VR players visiting lower level areas and...killing every NPC, guard and low level player that tried to stop them. Because they can. Before anyone says "but surely VR players are more mature and invested in ESO" well it was the VR players who were the biggest culprits of the dye station spam fest we were treated to.
I for one am not looking forward to any aspect of the Justice System."Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters." – Albert Einstein
Treat a customer fairly and they will remember you. Treat a customer poorly and they never forget.
Imperial City: Zerg, gank or die.17 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »Anyone who really believes people won't run through towns killing every NPC they can either wasn't here for the opening of the dye stations or has a short memory. Every dye station in every city I visited was plagued with healers spamming heals or someone firing off impulse to purposely screw with people who were trying to dye their gear. In case you were lucky enough to join ESO after Zenimax fixed it...just imagine trying to dye your gear with fireworks exploding in your face. That didn't stop until Zenimax confirmed it was greifing and therefore bannable and managed to isolate the dye stations from game effects once you engage the station. And yes, I reported people for griefing the dye stations.
As I see it opening day of the justice system will have some bored VR players visiting lower level areas and...killing every NPC, guard and low level player that tried to stop them. Because they can. Before anyone says "but surely VR players are more mature and invested in ESO" well it was the VR players who were the biggest culprits of the dye station spam fest we were treated to.
I for one am not looking forward to any aspect of the Justice System.
Mate , it is all a bet that both sides will have +- the same amount of players.
That is a huge bet lols."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
ontheleftcoast✭✭✭✭✭The only way I can not be affected by the Justice System is if the System is only on a different Instance than I am on.
So what that the "Essential NPCs" are not killable, I still have to wade through the corpses of the ones who are not essential. I still have to walk around or through the battles between the Enforcers and Criminals and Guards that will be going on.
I made these towns safe in a quest. Now, they are not safe, so why did I go through the effort in the first place. Now, if I can sign on to the game and choose a non JS server and play, then this system will not affect me. As it stands now, it will be going on all around me whether I choose to participate or not.
If I wanted to conduct business in dungeon like atmosphere, I would do all my business in Sanguines Demense.
And it doesn't even work if I opt in the JS to play a thief or assassin. It's not like I want to kill every random NPC. Sure, you can do that if you've got some weird fetish but the DB isn't about random slaying but rather killings with a purpose. To honor the Will of Sithis and the contract made with the Night Mother.
Will I be truly able to strike from the shadows and one shot the intended victim? And avoid engaging the town guard if nobody sees me commit the crime? From what it sounds like the answer is, "No". If I assassinate a target I'm guilty of a crime and every guard will somehow know about it when I'm caught in the future.
This is a fundamental problem with all crime systems in Elder Scrolls games. The fact that somehow, someway, every piece of property is "known" to be stolen or not. I'm deep in the cellars of the castle in Daggerfall and I pull a clove of garlic from a crate. I take it to any vendor, even one half a continent away, and somehow they know it's stolen? How? I kill a beggar in Stros M'Kai unseen on a moonless night. Three days later in Eastmarch I get caught assaulting a women and get charged with the murder. Who the hell told them about it?
Once a crime is committed, if nobody witnessed it, as an event it's over and done with. That crime shouldn't follow you to the end of your days. Justice is imperfect even in the best of times. With war and strife tearing the very world apart it will be flawed much more severely.
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cgipervert wrote: »...
Also, accidental NPC death from splash damage has me worried. There are always situations where mobs are placed around NPCs or you get chased towards an NPC in combat and an accidental death seems inevitable. Fines for killing someone accidentally or not are insanely expensive. I work hard for my gold and can't afford to lose a single coin because of this.
...
At the Guild Summit it was mentioned that players could flag themselves as non-participatory, and would not be able to attack NPCs.
Link: http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit-day2/Q: What protections will be in place to prevent the accidental commission of crimes?
A: We want to not have players suffer from collateral damage while running around town and using abilities. You will be able to flag yourself as not participating in the system, and we’re thinking about other ways to make sure the user doesn’t accidentally pickpocket or steal.
Personally, would like to see Megaserver phasing employed so that players who are flagged as non-participatory are placed in another phase from characters who are participating in the system.
Interested to see where they go with things though."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Lord_Draevan✭✭✭✭✭
✭The only way I can see NPCs not being murdered in droves on the first few days of the JS is if you make the NPC guards super strong... like in SW:TOR, the Imperial/Republic Soldiers guarding the bases/towns, if a player of the opposing faction ventures too close to the enemy zones in PvE, the guards kill them in like 2-3 hits and have hundreds of millions of health points, unkillable, essentially.
As others have pointed out, the dye introduction was bad with all the griefers. I can't imagine people will be better with the JS.I'm a man of few words. Any questions?NA/PC server5 -
KingRebz✭✭✭cgipervert wrote: »
Additionally, now that NPCs are killable I see cities full of [snip]holes running around in groups killing everyone including the guards just for the fun of it since they will be able to overpower everyone.
Not looking forward to this "feature" at all.
Thats whats fun about this feature..stop crying about it finally this game is going somewhere.
Didnt you ever go in a town/city in the ES games out of boredom to kill randomers? now you can do it with friends, get chased by the popo and other players; exciting and fun no?
Its gonna get worse before it gets better. We have had our fair share of worse. Finally its starting to feel better.Edited by KingRebz on October 24, 2014 8:41PMV14 Sorceror [Ebonheart]7 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lord_Draevan wrote: »The only way I can see NPCs not being murdered in droves on the first few days of the JS is if you make the NPC guards super strong... like in SW:TOR, the Imperial/Republic Soldiers guarding the bases/towns, if a player of the opposing faction ventures too close to the enemy zones in PvE, the guards kill them in like 2-3 hits and have hundreds of millions of health points, unkillable, essentially.
As others have pointed out, the dye introduction was bad with all the griefers. I can't imagine people will be better with the JS.
They've already stated that they plan to make the NPC guards very formidable. I don't think you'll be able to just kill / steal w/ impunity.
Also, ZOS responded pretty quickly to the griefing at the dye tables, and you don't really see this behavior anymore.
There's no reason to believe they won't act similarly to griefing via the Justice System.1 -
Sighlynce✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »I cant wait to stand around town crouched in stealth as an enforcer waiting for some nub to attack an NPC or steal from a merchant so i can wreck them.
I know right !!!? I'm hoping I'll be able to bribe some of the pvpers to let me go !!!! cross the ol' palm with a with a little gold
!
I get what you're saying @cgipervert, and hopefully it won't be as extreme as you're describing.![:\](https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
Sure its gonna be insane after its first implemented but after the new wares off and people get tired of being ganked for stealing a potato , it will level out.. At least I hope so. "What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" - Paarthurnax3 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
Didnt you ever go in a town/city in the ES games out of boredom to kill randomers? now you can do it with friends, get chased by the popo and other players; exciting and fun no?
...
Epic crime sprees were one the best parts about previous Elder Scrolls games.
Have been waiting on this feature, along with Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, since Beta. Should have been a feature at launch.
Have friends who have not started playing ESO yet specifically due to the absence of these features, as well as the absence of Poison making.
Looking forward to them finally joining me in game once this system is up and running.
Suspect that some players who quit early after release due to missing Elder Scrolls features will likely give the game a second go around once they are finally implemented as well.
It is good to see this game taking steps in the right direction.
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lord_Draevan wrote: »The only way I can see NPCs not being murdered in droves on the first few days of the JS is if you make the NPC guards super strong... like in SW:TOR, the Imperial/Republic Soldiers guarding the bases/towns, if a player of the opposing faction ventures too close to the enemy zones in PvE, the guards kill them in like 2-3 hits and have hundreds of millions of health points, unkillable, essentially.
As others have pointed out, the dye introduction was bad with all the griefers. I can't imagine people will be better with the JS.
They've already stated that they plan to make the NPC guards very formidable. I don't think you'll be able to just kill / steal w/ impunity.
Also, ZOS responded pretty quickly to the griefing at the dye tables, and you don't really see this behavior anymore.
There's no reason to believe they won't act similarly to griefing via the Justice System.
What people need to understand is that , "very formidable"/"strong"/"powerful" are all REALLY , REALLY relative terms lols.
In the end if the town is rushed by 20 thieves , one must wonder how powerful are those guards to hold them back.
With all that said , what zen does and what zen says are usually not the same at all.
So just because they gave an idea of how it should work... , that doesnt mean the end product will be like that at all , even more when first released.
So better just wait and see."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor3 -
Gooey✭✭✭ontheleftcoast wrote: »There could be some easy fixes for this. Auto loot could have a modifier "Don't steal anything". Then you can click on a crate and if the contents would be considered stolen you won't take them. I assume nothing on monsters you kill is marked as stolen. So you won't notice any difference.
But the roving gangs of a-holes killing every NPC in a town will probably happen. Unless all the town guards are VR14 elite bosses that swarm evil doers you're right. There are times you'll enter someplace like Daggerfall and all you'll see will be corpses in the streets. No merchants will be alive to buy your stuff...
On the plus side you won't have to hear about buying that hero an ale for the 9,083rd time.
For every a-hole killing npcs, there will be a hero killing them.
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timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Seems like it should be kind of hard for an Elder Scrolls fan to not look forward to the justice system. It's like one of the most iconic features of an Elder Scrolls game.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)8 -
tordr86b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭timidobserver wrote: »Seems like it should be kind of hard for an Elder Scrolls fan to not look forward to the justice system. It's like one of the most iconic features of an Elder Scrolls game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMKypvmB0 5 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm going to be an enforcer (at least for the first few weeks) because of these issues. Mass murder will happen at the beginning, there is no denying that. But I, and hopefully others, will work to shut it down quickly.
We shall see what happens, but it would be good if we could soften the blow of the introduction, so these negatives don't last for too long.
I hope they massively overpower guards at the beginning (but with scaling, so it only is overpowered for murder or extreme theft, the guard captain or something) in order to help ease the introduction in a similar way. then the can gradually nerf them to a more manageable strength later after things cool.
The start of a new system like this will be bumpy, but with a bit of patience, it will be a good step for the game.Edited by Shunravi on October 24, 2014 9:29PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!3 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
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Didnt you ever go in a town/city in the ES games out of boredom to kill randomers? now you can do it with friends, get chased by the popo and other players; exciting and fun no?
No. I don't think I have ever killed an NPC in a TES game that either did not attack me first, or was not instructed by a quest to do so. I don't treat these games like a shooter where everything on the map is a target. That is what dungeons and the wilderness is for.timidobserver wrote: »Seems like it should be kind of hard for an Elder Scrolls fan to not look forward to the justice system. It's like one of the most iconic features of an Elder Scrolls game.
The difference is, in a Single Player Game, the player can choose to be involved in crimes or not. In this system, everyone in the instance will have to deal with the crimes, or the effects there of, whether they participate or not.
Edited by Nestor on October 24, 2014 9:19PMEnjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"8 -
ontheleftcoast✭✭✭✭✭[quote="Nox_Aeterna;1338196
What people need to understand is that , "very formidable"/"strong"/"powerful" are all REALLY , REALLY relative terms lols.
In the end if the town is rushed by 20 thieves , one must wonder how powerful are those guards to hold them back.
With all that said , what zen does and what zen says are usually not the same at all.
So just because they gave an idea of how it should work... , that doesnt mean the end product will be like that at all , even more when first released.
So better just wait and see.[/quote]
Ultimately the problems I foresee with this, like all problems in ESO, are in the details. Just imagine they "get it right" for a moment and play thru the scenario of building up a thief character.
OK, you're a newly arrived Soul Shriven Khajiit (oh, yeah, that's right, with racial bonus to thieving you damn well know toons are going to literally be racially profiled by other players.) who lands on the shores of Auridon after escaping from Molag Bal's prison. Not wanting to play against type you find a seedy individual near the docks who offers you a deal. Steal the bottle of Colovian Brandy from the bar and his "associates" might have some more work for you down the road.
You're going to have to find a way to create a distraction to pull off this crime and not only fool the NPCs in bar but the 17 low level toons all looking to establish themselves with the Enforcers. Umm.. yeah.. good luck with that. So the first few thieving jobs will somehow have to build your toon's skills up to face the world where you never know if some other player is scoping you out. I get that's much like reality but it's a far cry from the fantasy thieving we've had in all past games. Especially one where you could simply press 'F5' before attempting a crime to counter the fact all criminal acts had a 10% chance of being detected and press 'F9' when you screwed up. There are no "do overs" in ESO.
But let's continue. The time you most need a forgiving system, when your starting out, is the time where you'll likely run into the most problems. As you progress thru the zones you currently run into fewer and fewer other players so not only are you getting more skills to avoid detection you have less need of them. Or something. But it's only a detail that I'm 100% sure Zenimax has thought about and will make an awesome.. oh hell, I can't dispense the level of sarcasm necessary to finish that remark.
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KingRebz✭✭✭...
Didnt you ever go in a town/city in the ES games out of boredom to kill randomers? now you can do it with friends, get chased by the popo and other players; exciting and fun no?
...
Epic crime sprees were one the best parts about previous Elder Scrolls games.
Have been waiting on this feature, along with Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, since Beta. Should have been a feature at launch.
Have friends who have not started playing ESO yet specifically due to the absence of these features, as well as the absence of Poison making.
Looking forward to them finally joining me in game once this system is up and running.
Suspect that some players who quit early after release due to missing Elder Scrolls features will likely give the game a second go around once they are finally implemented as well.
It is good to see this game taking steps in the right direction.
Exactly they are adding a feature that was in the previous ES games and now people are upset about this?
Sometimes people really dont know what they have or want..so let us decide for you
Edited by KingRebz on October 24, 2014 9:36PMV14 Sorceror [Ebonheart]6 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
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Didnt you ever go in a town/city in the ES games out of boredom to kill randomers? now you can do it with friends, get chased by the popo and other players; exciting and fun no?
No. I don't think I have ever killed an NPC in a TES game that either did not attack me first, or was not instructed by a quest to do so. I don't treat these games like a shooter where everything on the map is a target. That is what dungeons and the wilderness is for.
Yet the criminal role either being a thief or a murderer is one of the most played by players in ES games.
Its fine that you always play the hero and someone who never steals or kills but this doesn't match the desire of the ES fans. Most of them want to be able to steal, rob or even kill.
I don't remember any ES game where you were limited to being the hero, the good guy so to speak. All games offered you a career as a criminal, I for instance always stole from rich men while I left the poor ones alone and even deposit stuff into their chests.
ESO right now feels pretty one sided, you have nothing that allows you to be someone else than the hero and this just doesn't fit the franchise and its good that they are fixing this finally.6 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
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Exactly they are adding a feature that was in the previous ES games and now people are upset about this?
This is not the same as what was offered in SP TES games. In those games, if a player decided to go on a crime spree, then it did not impact any other player of the games. Now we all have to deal with it.
Now it's going to be, log in, go to crafting hub, oh look, players killing NPCs, enforcers killing criminals, criminals fighting guards, can't I just make a staff for a guild mate? Log out.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"8 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
Now it's going to be, log in, go to crafting hub, oh look, players killing NPCs, enforcers killing criminals, criminals fighting guards, can't I just make a staff for a guild mate? Log out.
What part of this scenario actually inhibits you from making the staff for a guild mate?"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The "I'm affected, whether or not I'm participating," argument is ridiculous. That's like whining that you're affected by people forming trial groups because you have to read about it in zone chat.
Don't want to participate in the justice system? Don't.
Don't want to see other players participating in the justice system? Go play a single-player game.----
Murray?10 -
ontheleftcoast✭✭✭✭✭Actually there's another problem I wonder about. There are all sorts of add-ons that make it easier to track known vampires, werewolves, etc. in PvP. This will happen with thieves and assassins. Basically the L33T members of the Enforcers will end up playing with notifications like, "Known thief/murderer Sits-by-Fishes" hovering over the toons. And, I assume, the top thieves and assassins will have the same, with alerts like "Known Enforcer Kalinor in zone" and anyone who doesn't play with the add-ons will be quickly forced to abandon their fantasy world adventures and admit the truth that they're not the hot shot thief they thought they were. That's going to be a major letdown for a lot of role players.
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Lord_Draevan✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think what they're trying to say is that it kills the immersion for them to have dead NPCs all over the place.
It might not affect your immersion depending on your tastes, doesn't mean other people won't have different tastes.Edited by Lord_Draevan on October 24, 2014 10:00PMI'm a man of few words. Any questions?NA/PC server4
