PvE vs PvP......A Dose of Reality

dharbert · October 2014

I've seen countless threads on this forum over the past several months concerning PvE vs PvP balance. These are mostly whine threads and nerf threads. Now, in the following paragraphs I might appear to be crass and arrogant, but that's the only way to get through to you people. And by "you people", I mean the vocal few on this forum who seem to think this game is, or should be, PvP only.

The mainstay of ESO is PvE, hands down. Like it or not. The content of ESO is 90% PvE and 10% PvP, and that's being generous.

You can't even enter Cyrodiil until you do some PvE to get to the required level. You like using Inner Light for critical strike and to spot hidden enemies? Guess what? You have to do a PvE questline to get that skill. You like to melt other player's faces off with Soul Assault? Yep, you guessed it, can't even get that skill without PvE. Flawless Dawnbreaker, Silver Shards, and Camouflaged Hunter? PvE questline. Undaunted skills? PvE questline and PvE dungeons.

Want to Swarm players to death in PvP? Guess what, you can't even become a Vamp without doing a PvE questline. Want to be a Werewolf and tear players to shreds in PvP? Nope, PvE questline first.

80% of the skill points in this game are obtained through PvE. You want top-of-the-line gear and endgame content? It's not in Cyrodiil. You have to PvE for those things in Craglorn.

Want access to other veteran zones? Sorry, have to do PvE questlines for that privilege.

If ZOS was to raise the level cap tomorrow from VR14 to VR16, what would PvP'ers do? As soon as the game was patched and the server was up, they would immediately head to Craglorn to grind to VR16 as quickly as possible, then head back to Cyrodiil, because PvE is the fastest way to gain levels and skill XP.

You can't do ANYTHING in this game without PvE in some shape or form. On the other hand, I can access every zone and all endgame content without ever targeting or being targeted by another player.

So, to summarize, this is a PvE game that just so happens to have a little bit of PvP in it for those who like enjoy it. That's the way it is, pure and simple. There CANNOT be balance between PvE and PvP unless the respective zones are instanced and completely separated with specific rules and skill durations/effects for each. You change ANYTHING in PvP and it effects PvE. You change ANYTHING in PvE and it effects PvP.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

babylon · October 2014

You mean someone actually didn't understand this already?

Should take away their internet rights.

Syndy · October 2014

If something is utterly broken in PvP, you better believe it is just as utterly broken in PvE...

Just because the PvE mobs can't complain about it, doesn't mean it isn't OP.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Resueht · October 2014

10% PvP? I think that is based on a user's personal experience. it's about 60-40 for me.

Also, I don't think you are taking into account endgame, by which I mean there isn't much solo stuff once you hit max. PvP is easier to PUG than some of the PvE options and quite frankly more dynamic. So, PvP is currently the bread and butter of endgame.

Vyle_Byte · October 2014

*applauds this post*

Nox_Aeterna · October 2014

While we cant be sure about the numbers since only zen got them , considering how few and the size of the cyros we got right now , unless this game really got a very small playerbase , the vast majority is for sure PvE players lols.

Hell , even now we pretty much only full one cyro usually.

babylon · October 2014

Syndy wrote: »

If something is utterly broken in PvP, you better believe it is just as utterly broken in PvE...

Just because the PvE mobs can't complain about it, doesn't mean it isn't OP.

None of that actually goes against the OP's point

Have to say though, some times skills used against people and hated by the target are needed vs mobs and loved by the party, sooo...

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Surfinginhawaii · October 2014

The deluge has already started

.

Akula · October 2014

Im sure you gave yourself a mental high five for this thread OP, might have even jumped up and actually yelled NAILED IT!

However the fact is that pre max level pve is nothing more than a testing grounds for learning game mechanics and getting you skilled in you playstyle of choice. Both end game pve and pvp need this.

The only difference between pve and pvp with this system in this game is that the devs gave pvpers an out at lvl 10 and not at max level like for pvers.

jelliedsoup · October 2014

Lol yeah and the GRIND of pve is not why I stay.

TequilaFire · October 2014

I love pvp battles, gank squads and players who feel they have to 1 v 1 every
player they see, not so much.

Qyrk · October 2014

Am I missing something or what? I thought this is already a common knowledge that ESO is mostly PvE with some PvP in place?

Voodoo · October 2014

I have not pvp yet in this game ..i am not a big pvp'r ..but I will say two things insupport of pvp in this game.

A. The basis of the game, (besides the threat from Molag) is the three waring factions, Trying to control the crown jewel of land called Cyrodill.

B. A soon to be introduced Justice System (which will add a pretty huge part of pvp into the lives of us ordinary pve'rs ...and I do plan on partaking in that little pvp experiment.

In summary the game has a decent amount of pvp written into its lore, game story, and is about to get an injection of even more pvp in the coming months.

...tweeks and balances will continue as they do with all MMO all the time.

eNumbra · October 2014

Just a small clarification, you don't have to actually do the fighters or mages quest line, just the first, "joining the guild" quest grants you the skill line.

Other than that spot on.

dharbert · October 2014

eNumbra wrote: »

Just a small clarification, you don't have to actually do the fighters or mages quest line, just the first, "joining the guild" quest grants you the skill line.

Other than that spot on.

Thanks for agreeing with my post for the most part, but you are still uninformed on the guild skills.Simply joining the Fighter's Guild, Mages Guild, or Undaunted does not grant access to all of the skill lines.

You have to reach Fighter's Guild Rank 10 in order to get the Dawnbreaker ultimate. You have to reach Fighter's Guild rank 6 in order to get Camouflaged Hunter. There are a few ways to level up your Fighter's Guild rank, but they all involve PvE.

Same for the Mage's Guild. You aren't given access to the entire skill line upon entry, and you must gain ranks in the Mage's Guild. The only two ways to do that are to find a LOT of lore books, or do Mage's Guild quests, all of which is PvE.

Same with Undaunted. You aren't given access all of the skill lines. You must complete PvE dungeon achievements in order to unlock them.

bellanca6561n · October 2014

What possible value do such derisive posts have?

Capable people ask this question every day, in one form or another: how do I win from here? And I don't mean games. It's the questions whose answer dismisses noise, dilatory effort, and precedes every possible accomplishment

This contributes nothing but a continuation of a tired and unwinnable debate by any side in any discussion while trying to cloak vitriol and catharsis in the guise of reason.

It's the tone of suck chic', that tiresome pecking order assembled by shrill or sarcastic competition over who can best express why something sucks or a point of view is wrong and theirs is right.

It's making this forum unbearable and unreadable and contributes NOTHING to this game or this community.

So, so many keenly intelligent people here making each other miserable using the excuse of a game and its developers who are undeniably and unarguably guilty of only one thing: designing, developing, delivering and continuing to deliver their first online game.

It cannot be their fault by any means or measure that perhaps one topic in ten expresses wonder, pleasure or joy much contribute to the enjoyment of other players.

An online game is ultimately a narrative told by its audience and I am tired of this story.

jnjdun_ESO · October 2014

Why, OP, why?

GoatKnuckle · October 2014

That's it. Let's solve the dilemma ONCE and FOR ALL.

Zeni ...

Create a hardcore PVP server that has open world PVP and with the ability to loot the dead for all of their gear and the defeated player is forced to wear the name of the last person to beat them over their character's head until they get a kill of their own.

And on every July 4th, we get to "invade" the regular servers and start a revolution for 24 hours. Just consider us the Daedric Horde and toss us out of a Great Dark Anchor or something. I don't know ... something sexy.

The Goat gives this Double Secret priority.

Tapio75 · October 2014

War.. War never changes...

Vizier · October 2014

This Topic = LOLs

I've seen alot of topics on this subject or rather alot of topics that degenerate into this discussion. Usually it's PVE centric players that are mad about abilities being altered for PvP purposes. They seem to think their abilities are just fine and should be left alone. That there should be two games with ultimately two different standards and since they don't give a flying rats behind about PvP they figure they and their characters should be left alone and that somehow their experience is diminished because they are not PVE Gods, day to day to day.

All that said I don't see any PvP'rs saying the game should only be PvP. That is a fabrication and without which the whole whine thread crumbles. Not to mention the PvE/PvP Player sub ratios are pretty much pulled out between two buns. 10% /90% = "I don't know WTH I'm talking about but it sounds good to meee."

PVE Balance? What does that even mean? PVE Balance doesn't matter a lick other to ensure all classes can progress through the content solo and kill basic bosses and perform adequately enough to be generally supportive and able to contribute in group PVE play. Other than that nerfs to Bats, sneak bonuses, Bolt Escape, spamable AOE, ultimate building ultimates etc.etc.etc...DO NOT MATTER.

So you cast one more heal, pop an extra potion, take five more minutes to get across the map in sneak, die a couple times to a boss you didn't before. IT DOESN'T MATTER. You can still play, complete content that is either more or less challenging. Shrug. Things like bosses and Mobs tracking NB's through cloak...that matters. Dudes one shotting bosses, ya, that matters, folks resetting bosses for xp grinds, ya, that matters, but the general tweaks given to skills based on PvP balance...no. Just no. Live with the fact the game is going to basically have one overall balance team focused primarily on PvP balance.

The balance that matters is PvP. Each class being viable with and or against the others in solo, small group, large battle play is what matters balance-wise. PvE play isn't necessarily an afterthought, it's just that these types of balance considerations have little to no impact on PvE gameplay. Certainly not enough to warrant two overall games balance designs. That's just wishful / fanciful thinking IMO.

Ifthir_ESO · October 2014

In other news, water is wet.

GoatKnuckle · October 2014

bellanca6561n wrote: »

What possible value do such derisive posts have?

It's making this forum unbearable and unreadable and contributes NOTHING to this game or this community.

Well, it made the Goat laugh. So, that's something.

Elvikun · October 2014

I'm not sure how Zen didn't figure out yet that certain skills having two versions (PvP and PvE one) is a good idea. Solves most of the problems. Removes a lot of needles conflict in the community.

dharbert · October 2014

Elvikun wrote: »

I'm not sure how Zen didn't figure out yet that certain skills having two versions (PvP and PvE one) is a good idea. Solves most of the problems. Removes a lot of needles conflict in the community.

Well, at least one person gets it. Having separate skill effects/durations between PvE and PvP zones would instantly and permanently resolve the issue.

It's extremely simple to do, ZOS. Once you enter Cyrodiil, Skill A does X amount of damage over X amount of time. Once you leave Cyrodiil and go back to the PvE zones, Skill A reverts back to Y damage over Y amount of time. Simple.

Circuitous · October 2014

Elvikun wrote: »

I'm not sure how Zen didn't figure out yet that certain skills having two versions (PvP and PvE one) is a good idea. Solves most of the problems. Removes a lot of needles conflict in the community.

It also doubles the work of whichever team is handling balance and can lead to confusion amongst players when their skills don't work the way they expect.

Just because you play PvE doesn't mean you're immune to having to adapt. When things change you have to accept that.

PvP is the basis for skill balance because it's a more sensible place to determine that balance.

ThisOnePosts · October 2014

Most MMOs in general are PVE based....... PVP is a bonus. Now keep in mind I said most, not all.

Those who truly love PVP experience, get their fixes in FPS games. It's a more "hardcore" PVP experience in terms of competitive play IN MY OPINION. MMOs typically attract people who like RPGs (some do just join up for PVP, but typically). With that said, all of these debates aren't exclusive to ESO nor will they ever be.

PBpsy · October 2014

Circuitous wrote: »

PvP is the basis for skill balance because it's a more sensible place to determine that balance.

It is only a sensible place to determine the balance of those skill for PVP since in PVP you are face with totally different mechanics than in PVE mainly the other classes skills. You are certainly not facing the same difficulty and requirements against another player as you do against a large mob pull or a boss fight.It is not the same and under no circumstance is it reasonable to make one the standard for balancing the other.

Elvikun · October 2014

Circuitous wrote: »

Elvikun wrote: »

I'm not sure how Zen didn't figure out yet that certain skills having two versions (PvP and PvE one) is a good idea. Solves most of the problems. Removes a lot of needles conflict in the community.

It also doubles the work of whichever team is handling balance and can lead to confusion amongst players when their skills don't work the way they expect.

Just because you play PvE doesn't mean you're immune to having to adapt. When things change you have to accept that.

PvP is the basis for skill balance because it's a more sensible place to determine that balance.

PvP is the basis for balance because PvE players rarely yell unless something is severely broken, where PvP players yell no matter if or how much something is broken. Much more feedback and much louder.
(Potential problem is also the "I hate that guy who keeps defeating me, so I'll fight for his class being nerfed" factor.)

Problem with balancing both sides at once is that it simply doesn't work that well for some skills. It's very much the same like trying to find the one tool that will be great for both cooking soup and hunting sharks. There isn'tone such a tool, you either have to compromise in very unelagant manner or abandon one of the two goals completely.
(And yes, than is an analogy. Trying to point out that the mechanics you encounter in PvE and PvP are often fundamentally different. Just saying, before someone goes "But there are no sharks and provisioning doesn't require tools!" on me.)

dharbert · October 2014

Circuitous wrote: »

Just because you play PvE doesn't mean you're immune to having to adapt. When things change you have to accept that.

Just because you play PvP doesn't mean that you're immune to having to adapt. When things change you have to accept that.

Remember that the next time you see one of the countless Nightblade/Vamp/PvP skill nerf whine threads started by, you guessed it, a PvP'er.......

Circuitous · October 2014

dharbert wrote: »

Circuitous wrote: »

Just because you play PvE doesn't mean you're immune to having to adapt. When things change you have to accept that.

Just because you play PvP doesn't mean that you're immune to having to adapt. When things change you have to accept that.

Remember that the next time you see one of the countless Nightblade/Vamp/PvP skill nerf whine threads started by, you guessed it, a PvP'er.......

I actually agree completely, sometimes people are too quick to complain. That said, I can see where the frustration comes from. In a vacuum it's easy to say "just get out of the bats," but that rarely represents reality. When you're getting chewed up by bats, it's by someone who can pop in quickly, lock you down, do the damage/get the heals, then get the heck out before you can properly retaliate. If they're not doing it all by themselves, they've got a small team behind them handling the minor details. It's a pain in the butt. All that said, nerfing bats is a band-aid fix, which isn't something ZOS is new to (remember Volatile Familiar?).

But it's ZOS's call to make. Give it time, see what happens, and for Stendarr's sake if you're not having fun because of changes, try something else.

Resueht · October 2014

Came back here to see the discussion after a bit, noticed my previous post got a lot of "LOL"s. Not sure why, guess it's a lot of like minded people who can't understand how big a part of this game is PvP (or understand the need for balance in PvP).

Oh well, thanks for the points